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Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch
- adultSwim 4y agoI miss my old Honda Insight. One of the first hybrids, it had a manual transmission and got 70 mpg commuting at 70 mph.
- kurupt213 4y agoA transfer case with a clutch and manual shifter…is innovative enough for a patent?
- Someone1234 4y agoSeems very similar to paddle shifters in a gas CVT. There's no mechanical connection between the "clutch peddle" and "shifter" to the actual transmission, it is all just fed into a computer and a simulation is created to give the driver a warm fizzy feeling. If this makes people feel better during the transitional phase, I guess that counts for something, but this is a manual car simulation only.
- consp 4y agoMy Current car does this when the the petrol engine kicks in (Hybrid with CVT), it does a tiny bit of "gear simulation" with the engine if you floor it and it uses the petrol engine together with the electric one and it adds a bit more of fake engine sound though the speakers to make it more obvious. Strange thing is they chose to only have "three gears", no matter at what speed you do it the max is two shifts. Not that it matters a lot, the shift in revs is not too much and if it gets petrol loving people into hybrid vehicles I'm OK with that.
- kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 4y agoNissan does this with their CVTs as well. Apparently they found that people didn't really like the "all one gear" feel, so they programmed in "gear changes" where the CVT changes ratio like an automatic. You still get the CVT advantage when going up a hill or stomping on the accelerator, though. They've been phasing out their CVTs in favor of traditional automatics, though.
- SoftTalker 4y agoAutomatics now routinely have 7 or more gears. That's essentially a CVT for all practical purposes.
- csunbird 4y agoMy automatic (non DCT) car has 8 gears and I usually don’t even feel the shifts after 3rd gear at all.
- davewritescode 4y agoThey’re phasing them out because they’re total junk. The Jatco CVT is so unreliable it’s been known to die at 30k miles and has cost Nissan a fortune in lawsuits and recalls.
- kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 4y agoI've heard this, but have yet to experience it.
- jonathanlydall 4y agoI don’t see the point for EVs, but I actually somewhat regularly use the “gear down” paddle on my Honda Jazz (AKA Fit in other countries) CVT, but not for a “warm fizzy feeling”. It actually “locks” the gears to a particular ratio which allows me to use the engine to keep the car from exceeding a particular speed when coasting down a hill. When I start using the accelerator after, it very quickly switches itself back to automatic as soon as the “locked in” gear ratio is clearly non-optimal. I’ve never bothered using them for any other scenario though, I don’t see the point as the CVT (at least on my car) very intuitively adjusts gear ratio based on how far I’ve pushed in the accelerator, it’s such a pleasure to drive.
- LorenPechtel 4y agoYup, I've used a paddle shifter in a rental for this very purpose--using the engine as a brake while going downhill. My Corolla only has two possible downshifts and neither is all that good for holding speed on a downhill but the cruise control is integrated into the system--I can set a speed and the computer will do a pretty good job of using the engine to keep from exceeding it too much and since it's adaptive it will always avoid the car in front even if otherwise it doesn't hold the speed that perfectly. Since I found that out I've never touched the downshifts.
- nottorp 4y agoFunny that it's coming from the same Toyota that puts CVTs with no discrete gear steps in their gas cars and doesn't try to hide it...
- viraptor 4y agoWhy would you expect them to hide it? It works great. I think the CVVT text was included right under the model name on my Toyota too.
- ReactiveJelly 4y agoI thought that some early CVT cars hid it by having the ECU fake small shifts
- _fat_santa 4y agoToyota also makes the iMT transmission, which is possibly the most user friendly manual transmission ever made.
- ohgodplsno 4y agoIt's also the same Toyota that did the Yaris GR, so they know a thing or two about manuals. They've always done what just works, for the target car. Hell, the CVT in the Yaris can actually feel good, it's relatively responsive and gives a linear push (when the electric engine is charged, going on pure ICE is hell). You just have to enjoy the BRRRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
- dylan604 4y agoI had a 2015 model car without a CVT, but it was replaced with a next year model with a CVT after the non-CVT was totaled in a wreck. The 2 cars drove/felt completely different. It took some time to understand why (I'm not a grease monkey), but I'm not really sure I ever liked the CVT model.
- ramesh31 4y ago>Funny that it's coming from the same Toyota that puts CVTs with no discrete gear steps in their gas cars and doesn't try to hide it... CVT is, theoretically, infinitely superior to a traditional geared automatic transmission. They got a bad wrap at first (just like traditional automatics) when they were introduced, but the tech has matured and they are extremely reliable now.
- rossmohax 4y agoIt is not the first time when product simulates imperfections of the past technology to make product more authentic in customers eyes. Film color,lenses defects, lots of "analog" audio effects and now cars.
- Kaibeezy 4y agoThe feeling of controlling a machine = "imperfections" What I would expect a machine to say. I, for one, do not welcome our new robot overlords.
- SilverBirch 4y agoIt's not about control. Transmissions in cars existed because internal combustion engines have a torque curve - the amount of torque you can get out of an engine varies with the engine speed, and so in order to maximize the torque at any given road speed you need to match the current road speed with the engine speed that produces peak torque. Now, there were different ways of doing this - manual transmissions vs semi-auto vs fully-auto and they did genuinely have pros and cons. For an ICE car there is genuinely a trade-off of how much control you have over the transmission. BUT that's entirely untrue of electric cars, electric motors produce maximum torque at 0 engine speed and eventually drop at high speed. So there's simply no reason to be using a transmission at all. There is no decision to be made about gearing, you either have enough torque or you don't.
- flyingfences 4y agoIt is about the feeling of control now. The reason people who still choose manuals do so isn't because of the torque curves -- automatics are now better at handling that -- it's because they like the feeling.
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- bryanlarsen 4y ago
- rthomas6 4y agoI suppose I'm not the target market for this. To me this is just added complexity that increases cost and likelihood of something breaking. I'm still waiting for someone to make a "battery on wheels", an electric car with no extra bells and whistles. I think it could end up being so cheap to own, and also extremely reliable, since electric cars need no transmissions, and almost no maintenance of any kind for that matter. My Leaf needs tires, and... that's about it until 100k miles.
- willis936 4y agoThis comes up in every HN EV thread. Why not convert a mid 20th century car to EV?
- goethes_kind 4y agoFor one, safety issues. Conversions only make sense when you want to have some kind of exotic classic, and then make it even more exotic with your custom powertrain.
- LBJsPNS 4y agoNo air bags, seat belts, crumple zones, etc...
- willis936 4y agoNot exactly a battery on wheels. I don't see the middle ground between "no smarts" and "enough smarts to keep me safe". If you want a backup camera, blindspot radar, rollover protection, and A-pillar airbags then you could just buy a new EV. Is a touchscreen you don't need to touch an issue?
- rthomas6 4y agoCars from the 2000s had all of this and were much cheaper than cars now.
- formerly_proven 4y agoA skateboard-style BEV sees significant benefits in crash performance from the battery, that's not something you get with hybrid platforms ("ICE and also BEV on the same platform") or conversions. Crash performance in cars has in general massively benefited from the trifecta of more stringent requirements, better processes and more compute in the last two or so decades.
- GnarfGnarf 4y agoAs a clutch enthusiast, I would welcome this innovation if it actually improved EV motor performance. If its only purpose is to simulate the ICE experience, I'm not interested.
- culopatin 4y agoThe only thing the clutch is good for is to get the tires loose with a clutch kick or to detach the engine drag from the wheels if one so desired.
- spookthesunset 4y agoWouldn’t a motor be able to chirp the tires all by itself? Dunno how much drag the motor would create if allowed to spin freely…
- Sohcahtoa82 4y agoA clutch-kick can dump more torque into the wheels than the motor could possibly produce. Though a clutch-kick in an ICE operates based on the inertia of the rotating engine. I wonder how much inertia an electric motor has and if a clutch-kick would even be as effective. What they really need is a hydraulic parking brake lever. Being able to lock the rear tires is a necessity for drifting situations when you want to increase angle while also scrubbing speed.
- culopatin 4y agoYou need a peak in torque on the wheels usually. Some can depending on how much power they make.
- manual89 4y agoYep, I'd be interested in this psuedo-manual only if it simulated this aspect of the ICE original.
- projektfu 4y agoBased on my experience with the Volt, which already needed traction control to keep the tires from spinning, it probably will offer slighlty different driving modes. Torquey, smooth, low-rev/low-heat highway mode.
- mhb 4y agoNo worse than Subaru's ICE CVT with fake shift points?
- analog31 4y agoI don't even notice the stepped shifting when I drive my Soobie. In fact I wondered why it worked that way, and assumed it had something to do with minimizing wear and tear on the shift mechanism. It's the closest thing to "get in and drive" of any car I've had. I especially love the adaptive cruise control.
- mhb 4y agoYes. I also think it works great including the lane change warnings. It is maddening that there is no way to prevent the radio from turning on every time the car does, though.
- superchroma 4y agoI can't decide whether this is dumber than Dodge making a huge deal about how their new EV Dodge Charger (car not car-charger, oh my god, what a branding screw up) makes authentic loud V8 noises, but they're definitely both stupid. Can we just fast forward to the future where EVs glide around silently and people look both ways before crossing the road?
- lm28469 4y ago> Can we just fast forward to the future where EVs glide around silently and people look both ways before crossing the road? Getting rid of 50% of your car detecting senses doesn't seem like a good idea
- badcppdev 4y agoOr imagine if you're blind. Trying to listen for tire noise.
- mistersquid 4y ago> Or imagine if you're blind. Trying to listen for tire noise. When vehicles past a certain volume (which are not aggressively streamlined to shatter human-powered landspeed records) move faster than 25 kph (15 mph) they displace enough air that they are quite loud. An automobile-sized vehicle isn’t some kind of terrestrial ninja when its engine doesn’t make noise. Depending on make, model and speed, the volume of displaced air is significantly louder than the engine running at constant velocity.
- mumblemumble 4y agoOr imagine if you're a kid and it's physically impossible for you to see around an SUV parked adjacently to the crosswalk without actually sticking your head out into the street. That said, the "cars make noise go vroom" argument hasn't really worked for decades now. Modern mufflers mean most unmodified cars aren't loud enough to be clearly heard over background noise in an area with lots of cars. Pedestrian safety is absolutely a problem that's worsening, but I don't think that "make cars noisier" is the solution. Barring the ideal (to me) solution of fewer cars in the first place, what seems most promising to me is making the infrastructure itself more pedestrian-friendly. I was impressed to see what Amsterdam's city center did with encouraging cars out onto the thoroughfares and out of the places where people are walking. They didn't seem to have the same "Waze addicts blowing through stop signs on residential streets" problem that we have in North America. Nor did they have the same problem with stroads and their obnoxious traffic patterns that set everyone who uses the on edge. It seemed to make transportation both safer and more pleasant for everyone involved.
- gambiting 4y agoThat already exists - in China . They made a vehicle like this for driving lessons - so you can pass your test in a "manual" vehicle.
- netsharc 4y agoI wonder if it simulates the juddery stall when you stop in gear...
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- gambiting 4y agoYes it does apparently. https://www.google.com/amp/s/jalopnik.com/this-chinese-electric-car-designed-for-driving-schools-1844071179/amp https://www.google.com/amp/s/jalopnik.com/this-chinese-elect...
- albertopv 4y agoI don't want a fake clutch.
- throwaway787544 4y agoI like the idea, but I'd rather an ICE conversion with a real drivetrain and transmission and an EV motor. I'll build it myself if no manufacturers will.
- topspin 4y agoThis is already widespread. You can buy a electric crate engine from Ford for about $4000. That is, when they are not sold out.
- nabilhat 4y agoThis is a neat example though of how arbitrary EV drivetrains are. A Toyota marketing exec's (just guessing) FUD about imagined consumer FUD turns into, why don't we just ramp down torque in notches in relation to road speed increments? Of course anyone who buys this is going to try it once then leave it in all-the-torque-all-the-time mode, but that's not the point. I can't say I've met a single three pedal afficionado who bemoaned the lack of shifting after experiencing the mild concussion inducing levels of acceleration of some of these new EV's. If roadgoing gas cars had that kind of torque, they wouldn't shift either, just like the fastest drag cars. There's no point.
- gpt5 4y agoThe counter argument is that European vehicles are vastly using manual gear, despite the fact that except for a small minority, no one cares about the potential difference in torque. There is just a lot of people that are used the a certain solution and are resistant to change.
- spellboots 4y agoThere are economic and regulatory factors involved, it is more complex than people being resistant to change which no doubt makes up part of it. In the UK, for example, automatic cars are more expensive to buy and insure [1]. They also tend to be more expensive to learn how to drive as instructors mostly have manual cars to teach with. This incentivises new drivers towards manual cars, especially as younger drivers are more likely to be in lower-paying jobs and therefore more price conscious. There is also a separate license category for automatic cars. If you have this license you are not allowed to drive manual cars, whereas the manual license entitles the holder to drive both. Therefore most new drivers opt to learn manual for the flexibility and the cost reasons. 1: https://www.moneysupermarket.com/car-insurance/automatic-cars/ https://www.moneysupermarket.com/car-insurance/automatic-car...
- yywwbbn 4y agoI find it hard to imagine it would take significantly more than 15 minutes for most people to ‘learn’ how to drive an automatic car even if they only drove a manual before.
- micromacrofoot 4y agowhy would anyone ever pay for this? the simplicity of going from a ICE to an EV is a huge benefit
- fred256 4y agoAs an owner of both a manual transmission car and an EV, I enjoy driving them both, but I don’t want the manual transmission experience with an EV power train.
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- Salgat 4y agoFor some context, the first Tesla Roadster also had a transmission, but Tesla quickly realized that it's far better to simply scale up the motor so that the torque curve is high enough at higher RPMs, electronically cap the torque at low RPM, and remove the transmission altogether. Considering transmissions are one of the most expensive and common major parts to repair in a vehicle, it is astounding that anyone would try to bring it back.
- ChuckNorris89 4y agoYou're assuming in your argument that scaling up the motor is somehow free and that's why the cost of a transmission is stupid. Well it's not free, that's why transmissions exist.
- Salgat 4y agoI never claimed it was free, I said that Tesla discovered that removing the transmission by scaling up the motor was a far better option.
- dragontamer 4y agoI have to imagine that a smaller torqueband but more gears would make for a more efficient electric vehicle. The torque from 1000lbs of Li-ion cannot be denied, but are there other options here? Less torque, fewer batteries, less range but still the acceptable acceleration and cruising speeds? The high end Porches Tycan proved that two gears is a good design, even at the highest end of performance, for example. Lower performance vehicles probably have more opportunity to use gears?
- bl_valance 4y agoI'm the target audience for this. I know it makes no sense, to make the car slower "shifting" through the gears, but for many of us it's the feel of full control over the car's mechanics. It's similar to the appeal of motorcycles, we ride them because every body input you make matters to the control of it. With all this said, there will still be a market for ICE manual cars for many years to come, it'll sure become more expensive to own one but I guess that'll be the price we'll have to pay. I also don't think the desire to continue driving manual will die off, anecdotally, I was talking to my 10-year old nephew and he seemed enamored with the idea of driving manual especially interested in early 2000s JDM cars, this was a really shock to me tbh I would of never thought this will be relevant with today's youth.
- hbarka 4y agoHyundai, Kia, and Audi EVs have paddle shifters which controls the level of regeneration braking and feels very much like downshifting. One paddle (+) steps up the regen to the point where the “drag” gets progressively stronger. The other paddle (-) steps down regen to 0 where the car can coast and there is no regen drag whatsoever. Note this is not the same as Neutral. The car is always in Drive. The function only affects what happens when letting off the power pedal. The nice thing about the regen paddle mechanical control is the no-look ability at your fingertips to change the car’s response depending on driving context. There are moments when you don’t want the car to tip into a regeneration drag when letting off the power pedal and sometimes you feel the need for the “engine braking” to engage right away. All the other EVs just have strong regen (B setting) or low regen and the selection is a preset you have to choose either on the screen or somewhere near the shift cluster and isn’t exactly a no-look control you can change on the fly. The older VW Golf EV used to have a stick where you can tap up and down two levels of regen on the fly and that was also a great experience but now buttons have replaced the stick. (Sigh, it was nice while you had it, VW!) The Chevy Bolt has one paddle but it’s designed like a brake-with-your-hands lever when depressed. Not quite the effect of stepping up or down. In sum, the feeling of downshifting, such as into a turn, can be controlled. On the other hand, there is no need for “upshifting” if the EV had adequate power to get to a high speed. Tesla’s power and torque band is already covering high and low speeds with one gear, although an additional top gear would probably get them to a really insane top speed. I think Toyota’s goal is to eke out more range because they want to use less powerful motors where the power and torque bands would benefit from gearing. My dream is for Tesla to add mechanical paddle shifters and do what Hyundai does.
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- baybal2 4y ago
- jjtheblunt 4y agoIs it coincidence that so many designs first seen in Audi seem to show up in Hyundia/Kia at a short delay?
- zcw100 4y agoI love driving manual transmission cars but I really don't like this. It's like cosplay for cars. The simulated experience makes it very uncool. I'd rather just let the manual transmission have one last dignified drive into the sunset.
- itronitron 4y agowhy should manual transmissions be limited to only petroleum powered engine? Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
- Analemma_ 4y agoElectric motors don’t need manual (or indeed, any) transmissions because they have a basically-flat torque curve across their entire RPM range. The only options for an electric motor are fake transmission or no transmission, and the parent is arguing for the latter and against “transmission cosplay”. A real manual transmission on an electric car would have no point.
- SoftTalker 4y agoElectric motors draw more current when starting up and when delivering high torque. It's conceivable that with a transmission, maximum current draw could be lowered, perhaps leading to longer-lived batteries or lower demand for battery cooling, smaller gauge wiring, smaller motors, or other cost savings. Don't know for sure on any of this, but it seems plausible. On the other hand, if it really made a difference, why aren't the EV makers already doing it?
- dangrossman 4y agoA more complicated gearbox means more friction which lowers the fuel efficiency of the vehicle. Since the battery is the most expensive part of a BEV, maximizing fuel efficiency is always a priority. It determines the cost and the range for the car. EVs with multiple gear ratios do exist though, the first of which was the 2020 Porsche Taycan. The first gear lets it maximize torque at low speeds (up to 62 MPH) so it can set 0-60 records, then the second gear lets it maintain a more economical motor speed for highway driving.
- snshn 4y agoPeople naturally seem to crave struggle. Probably part of the mating game, can't find any other easy explanation.
- iancmceachern 4y agoI called this! It's in a HN comment I placed a few weeks ago.
- guenthert 4y agoAnd I thought Toyota had a winner with the Prius. I really like mine (2nd generation, >100kmi, still going strong). I'm a big fan of their "power sharing device" (PSD -- otherwise known as planetary gears). Aside the economics and (fairly) eco-friendliness, it drives quite nice, very smooth. Under the right conditions (flat, smooth road), it feels like gliding. I ride motorcycles too and I learned to drive on a stick shift, but in a car, it's just silly. You want what from me? Selecting the proper gear? What next, adjusting oil pressure?
- nielsbot 4y agoSetting the choke properly... if anyone remembers those.
- psychomugs 4y agoAs a driver of a manual Miata older than I am, I was somewhat pleasantly surprised by this idea. I find this similar to the Fujifilm line of digital cameras with analog-style exposure dials and optical viewfinders; the affordances are objectively worse and largely unnecessary compared to the PASM mode selectors found in almost every other line of camera today, but they make all the difference between the feel of shooting a computer with a lens versus a proper dedicated camera. I'm glad someone is trying to save the manual transmission baby from the ICE bathwater.
- footlose_3815 4y ago[dead]
- givemeethekeys 4y agoMaybe this will drive more ICE to electric conversions.
- dieselgate 4y agoThis is awesome, not having a manual transmission is one of the biggest drawbacks of modern cars for myself and presumably many others Edit: I do have questions about efficiency because I was assume an EV manual may actually be less efficient than an automatic or single speed trans
- asdfk-12 4y agoToyota Tercel SR5, VW Diesel Rabbit, Toyota Pickup, Tacoma, etc. are all enjoyable to drive with a standard (manual) transmission. It is also a joy to be able to service and replace the clutch when required. Here's to hoping Toyota doesn't break with their history of having vehicles that are easy to work on with cheap plentiful parts available from the dealer even 30 years after it rolls off the production line. Trying to replace a battery pack on my Nissan Leaf has been a nightmare. Rather than supporting owners, they seem to prefer you treat the vehicle as disposable, given availability, cost, and needed tools to service the EV.