24 ms·

Google employee resigns after ‘retaliation’ for protesting Israeli contract

199 points by tomerbd 4y ago

mc32 4y ago
This is the result of the clash between naïve idealism and the realities of revenue (and maybe some realpolitik). Undermining company revenue, usually isn't met with enthusiasm.
- TaylorAlexander 4y ago
  I don’t know if it’s fair to call it naïve idealism. There’s lots of reasons to get frustrated working at google, and when you see that they’re participating in an apartheid system it’s worth protesting and trying to get them to change, even if you don’t believe chances of success are high. You can be realistic (rather than naïve) and still feel it is worthwhile to protest, and to quit if that fails. The publicity of the protest also helps other people avoid the mistake of working for a company that supports or is indifferent to apartheid.
bawolff 4y ago
I appreciate this is not quite the same thing, but i can't help but wonder what someone who finds survelience morally reprehensible, is doing at a company that is primarily in the business of tracking users.
- kajecounterhack 4y ago
  They found the treatment of Palestine by Israel to be the morally reprehensible thing -- not specifically data collection itself but weaponized data for enacting a system of oppression.
  - sneak 4y ago
    The data collected by Google on everyone is used by the US government as a weapon to enact a system of oppression, otherwise they wouldn’t use warrantless PRISM/FAA702 to pull data from the servers and would instead use normal legal search warrants based on probable cause.
  - nailer 4y ago
    Wouldn’t you want to track a nearby territory ran by leaders that publicly call for your destruction?
    - sfvegandude 4y ago
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
worik 4y ago
"Instead of listening to employees who want Google to live up to its ethical principles" But Google is. It is ethics that this person disagrees with (me too) but "index the world's data" is, to paraphrase, Google's sole mission
softwareoiu 4y ago
atemerev 4y ago
“In her statement, Koren also singled out “Jewglers,” a forum for Jewish Google employees, for not accommodating Jews who hold anti-Zionist views.” Zionism is the belief that Israel has the right to exist, and that Jews have the right to live in Israel. If you are against this, your views are quite extremist and it is hard to find understanding and accommodation, particularly among fellow Jews.
- m_eiman 4y ago
  To quote Wikipedia: "Advocates of Zionism view it as a national liberation movement for the repatriation of a persecuted people to its ancestral homeland. Anti-Zionists view it as a colonialist, racist or exceptionalist ideology or movement."
- lostlogin 4y ago
  The wiki on Zionism says this toward the end: “Anti-Zionists view it as a colonialist, racist or exceptionalist ideology or movement.” Characterising the groups views as believing Israel should not exist seems disingenuous. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism
- guelo 4y ago
  Zionism is an anti-democratic, explicitly racist belief that only Jews should have governing power over all land west of the jordan river.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - cb504 4y ago
    Don't the Palestinians think the same thing, that only Palestinians should have governing power over all land west of the jordan river?
    - smcl 4y ago
      I'm sure many want the land that their families lost long ago when Israel was established and plenty of Palestinians are enraged enough by the ongoing human rights abuses that they suffer that they'll curse the Israeli state. Some will even say some pretty radical shit about it, probably similar to what Ukrainians might say of the invading Russians, or even what some Irish said of the Brits back during their independence struggle. However if you were to right now offer the people of Palestine a guaranteed peace with a two-state solution based on the Oslo accords they would overwhelmingly vote to accept it. I don't think you could say the same of anyone who describes themselves as a Zionist. Though I don't know how widespread that belief is among the Israeli population, it's entirely likely a similar majority in Israel would be satisfied with such a solution.
hourago 4y ago
> “Due to retaliation, a hostile environment, and illegal actions by the company, I cannot continue to work at Google and have no choice but to leave the company at the end of this week,” Ariel Koren said in a statement posted Tuesday to Medium. Many people is missing the point. "Retaliation" is illegal. > Google denied retaliation and the National Labor Relations Board found no wrongdoing after an investigation In my experience this kind of investigation have very high standards on what is considered "retaliation" as it is very difficult to prove that negating promotions, or moving people to new positions is directly related to "retaliation". Maybe it was just a misunderstanding by the employee, but I would like to see more realistic investigations that take into account the timing of the companies actions.
- EdwardDiego 4y ago
  Boycotting Israel gets your company in trouble with various state governments in the US, like no supplying services to the government, and in Arkansas, it gets even more viral in that people you supply services to are forbidden from supplying services to the government. My RH contract specifically forbade boycotting Israel, I'm sure for those reasons. And of course, I imagine that Israel has laws about doing business there that look dimly on being boycotted. It's very very dumb legislation, and I think derives from a very odd facet of belief found in some American Protestant belief systems - that for Jesus to come back, the State of Israel has to exist.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - georgia_peach 4y ago
    - dang 4y ago
      You can't do this kind of flamewar here, obviously*, and we've warned you before, so I've banned the account. * https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
botanical 4y ago
I applaud her for her courage. Israel has seemingly been given leeway to do as they please when it comes to Palestianian freedom of movement. And Google's none the better with their AI drone programme. I mean Palestinians have it hard to put it lightly. Israel is an Apartheid State that's enacting a harsh Apartheid system against these people: * Illegal Settlers living in Palestine can vote in Israel but not Palestinians. Apartheid South Africa did the same, they put the people in their own "country" and so couldn't vote. Israel doesn't want 2 states as that would mean millions more voting. * Israel has ethnically cleansed and fragmented areas into [isolated cantons divided by Israeli settlements](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_enclaves https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_enclaves), and implemented [lebensraum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensraum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensraum) tactics. This was called [Bantustans](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bantustan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bantustan) in South Africa. * [It denies Palestinian fishing past 3 nautical miles in some areas, and not past 15 nautical miles](https://www.ochaopt.org/sites/default/files/styles/inline100_standard/public/images/gaza2.png https://www.ochaopt.org/sites/default/files/styles/inline100...) * [The Apartheid Separation wall](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d0/73/81/d07381fffef632350bcbb535bbaeced8.jpg https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d0/73/81/d07381fffef632350bcb...)? * The settlers killing, and burning homes to get rid of people and destroying olive tree groves. * [They control the water completely](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_supply_and_sanitation_in_the_State_of_Palestine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_supply_and_sanitation_in...). * [They get 12 hours of electricity a day](https://www.ochaopt.org/page/gaza-strip-electricity-supply https://www.ochaopt.org/page/gaza-strip-electricity-supply). * Palestinians didn't have 3G until 2018, their access is also restricted. * They [blockade](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip) Gaza, making it a prison. * [Not All Israeli Citizens Are Equal](https://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/24/opinion/not-all-israeli-citizens-are-equal.html https://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/24/opinion/not-all-israeli-c...) * There were `5,248,185` Palestinian refugees in 2020; that's equal to half the population of Israel. * [Israel dictates who you can marry](https://preview.redd.it/1k7jnev0pq971.jpg?width=1024&auto=webp&s=8ae55bbb3f4cdf4a5bab72b249b1e003ce2bf926 https://preview.redd.it/1k7jnev0pq971.jpg?width=1024&auto=we...) * [Segregated road system](https://s3.amazonaws.com/VP2/visuals/en/4db97391fe7cb246224980917f5bd997.png?2015 https://s3.amazonaws.com/VP2/visuals/en/4db97391fe7cb2462249...) * 50% of Palestinians are children. As someone from South Africa, I've seen ethnic cleansing and Israel is doing worse. Israel is absolutely an Apartheid state. Various human rights organisations have already stated this And it seems in the comments here, Zionism is conflated with anti-semitism. Zionism is extreme nationalism (at the expense of innocent Palestinians), not anti-Jew.
robertwt7 4y ago
Who doesn’t do surveillance these days? Seems pretty naive from a Google employee. A company that tracks user as one of the main business model.
KKKKkkkk1 4y ago
Just read the NLRB dismissal letter of her complaint [0]. The NLRB found that Google decided to offer her a relocation from Mexico to Brazil before she started her BDS crusade against Google. By the way, discrimination on the basis of national origin is against Google policy and against federal and CA state law. These laws protect Israelis just like anyone else. [0] https://www.nlrb.gov/case/20-CA-286745 https://www.nlrb.gov/case/20-CA-286745
- wildrhythms 4y ago
  I don't understand how you came to the conclusion that Israelis are being attacked in this instance.
  - parkingrift 4y ago
    Refusing to build a data center in Israel, as Koren wanted.
    - namdnay 4y ago
      That's the state of Israel, not Israelis. You can refuse to open a factory in China for moral reasons, but still be perfectly friendly with your chinese colleagues
      - parkingrift 4y ago
        Yeah I think that’s probably an argument a court would agree with. I wonder to what extent it is applicable. Is there not harm to Israeli peoples if Google refuses to build a data center in Israel?
dncornholio 4y ago
Not sure what disgusts me more, the term Jewglers or the fact that she faked the retaliation. This story just doesn't add up.
- batch12 4y ago
  For what it's worth, it looks like Jewglers is a name the group calls itself [0]. It doesn't appear to be some racist phrase the employee made up. [0] https://www.seroundtable.com/photos/google-jewglers-menorah-sticker-31106.html https://www.seroundtable.com/photos/google-jewglers-menorah-...
  - KoftaBob 4y ago
    Also (just for context), the employee in question is also Jewish.
lizardactivist 4y ago
Very brave of her to stand up and say this. She sets an example, and more should follow.
- sigzero 4y ago
  As long as you are willing to face the consequences (being fired) certainly.
  - manholio 4y ago
    Stalin would agree, there is a pervasive misunderstanding that he was against free speech - in reality, he was against speaking freely and living after speaking.
mellosouls 4y ago
As much as I tire of activist employee stories, at least in this instance she has resigned rather than trying to force other employees out for having different opinions which is often the case in these news items, so respect to her for that.
- kurupt213 4y ago
  We don’t know that she didn’t focus on doing that until finally pushed out (I mean resigned)
qikInNdOutReply 4y ago
The world is full of these "conflict" spillovers into civilian life in europe right now. Palastinians vs Israelis (or Jews in general), Kurds vs Turks, Shiits vs Sunnits, Wahabi vs all, Thai Royalists vs Students, CCP controlled student chapters vs those with no family ties to the mainland. Also the remnants of old war and warcrimes, being used in these show up time and time again. Todays japanese are dragged for the WW2 crimes through the mud by some old geezers. The ideals have decayed, another great game is in full swing and these stories of the past, are great to prevent any discussion of the present and to feel selfrightous while comitting similar crimes on a smaller scale. Nobody is really interested in preventing these atrocities, a ton of people are interested in keeping them alive as ammonition.
- hillsboroughman 4y ago
  It is true that ideals have decayed. US government did not retaliate strongly enough against the Tienanmen Square massacre back in 1989. Trade was much more important. Now US is critical of all the surveillance and other repressive things that the Chinese government does. But they missed the bus more than 20 years ago. To take the story to its origin, President Nixon's presiding over the opening to China back in 1972 effectively killed the Tibetan resistance movement. As part of signalling their good intentions, the US withdrew all support to the Tibetan resistance movement from one day to the next. All the Tibetan freedom fighters fled overnight to India. Now governments and media talk about human rights in Tibet. The opportunity to do something about it was lost long back. Read 'The Noodle Maker of Kalimpong' by the Dalai Lama's older brother.
- blackoil 4y ago
  International relations have never been about ideals and morals. We had colonialism, slavery, European nation exploited other continents for centuries, great game in Afghanistan and Middle East between Britain and Russian Empire and later USA. US supported autocratic rulers in Korea and Taiwan. US funded coups against democratic govt in Central and South America and Iran. US supported Pakistan govt in human right violations against what is now Bangladesh. Ukraine has supported Saudi's human right violations against Yaman. Ukraine and China has supported military govt. in Myanmar which toppled democratic govt.
kurupt213 4y ago
Where’s the disgust about working China, the modern day Nazis
- case0x00 4y ago
  quite. it is very frustrating seeing _every single thread_ about israel turn into hateful rhetoric, spreading lies and propaganda, using buzzwords they heard somewhere, and generally not understanding history at all. but threads about china/KSA/UAE/etc. are free of this. this isn't whataboutism, its important to care about humans rights issues in multiple countries, but its just weird how hate-fueled people get about israel. That is the one thing I dont get. I keep seeing people say that people cannot criticize israel, but that is _all_ I see in the media and in online forums. _every single pro-israel point_ here is downvoted. it isn't antisemetic to criticize israel but yikes do people really get passionate about their hatred for it specifically, more so than any other country. antisemitism isn't antizionism but people really do end up parroting the exact same talking points as antisemitism. it really concerns me about HN honestly. at a point people really need to look within themselves and ask are they actually antisemitic?
  - LtWorf 4y ago
    That's because you are free to criticise China or Iran, but get accused of being a nazi for pointing out Israel does similar things. That makes people more angry.
  - dirtyid 4y ago
    > cannot criticize israel IMO large part of distaste for Israel is reflection of how criticizing Israel doesn't do shit due to how entrenched and influential Israel Lobby is in US politics and centrality of Israel is to US foreign policy in MENA. Let's be real, Israel isn't going to get substantively sanctioned by US + LIO co for any of the henious shit they do. There's plenty of hate boners for PRC/KSA as well, but also tangible policy/diplomatic actions against these "bad actors" while Israel get's off with relatively light slaps. The long running hypocrisy and impunity is a bad look and triggers broad groups, most of whom IMO are simply anti-Israli influence because it's a reflection on how realist and interest driven US foreign policy actually is. Optically, frequently it looks like US can't keep Israel on a short leash, and sometimes the dog is walking the owner, this pisses off from antisemites who simply hates Jews to murica exceptionalists who thinks Israel is functionally a vassal and everyone in between. TBH pro Israel propaganda is doing pretty well all things considered. Evoking antisemitism seems to work out better than sinophobia or islamaphobia at least in MSM.
jimbob45 4y ago
Project Nimbus, costing $1.2 billion, will transfer Israel’s data into six cloud-based storage centers over the next several years. Koren said the project would enable surveillance of Palestinians. Bit of a stretch, isn’t it? You could theoretically claim that these cloud centers are responsible for anything that Israel does that you’re not a fan of, by her logic. In reality, they’re just cloud centers, she hates Israel, and will take any excuse to hurt them in any way possible.
rgejman 4y ago
The problem from the perspective of many Jews (including myself) is that these kinds of protests and protestors tend to focus on Israel to the exclusion of any other state. Where is the protest of Google's relationships with dozens of other countries accused of major human rights violations? The double standard when it comes to Israel calls into question the motivation behind the protest and makes many Jews reasonably wonder if it is actually anti-semitic (even when coming from fellow Jews).
- Pulcinella 4y ago
  One example of employee’s protesting Google’s business with China: https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2018/11/27/google-employees-go-public-protest-china-search-engine-dragonfly/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2018/11/27/google-... One example of employee’s protesting Google’s business with the USA https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/19/google-employees-implore-leaders-to-stop-working-with-us-bcp-ice.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/19/google-employees-implore-lea...
- LtWorf 4y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
- idoubtit 4y ago
  The problem is that Israel is seen as a "friend state" and Israel claims to be a democracy. So we expect higher standards of ethics than most other countries. The other reason is that we (western countries) could have a strong influence to make the crimes stop. Of course, "evil states" like Russia or China are not expected to behave well. And anyway, we (western countries and western companies) don't have much influence on them. So it's easy to abundantly criticize them. Some "friend states" are clearly dictatorial and commit mass crimes, but we (western government and western opinions) don't expect much of them on human rights. Saudi Arabia started the Yemen war which killed 380,000 people (according to UNO), mostly Yemeni civilians, but who cares? Slaughtering a journalist in Turkey got more attention, because it was more spectacular. Other "friend states" are less openly dictatorial (they have polls, even if often rigged) and only slaughter their political opponents. Then it's easy to just look elsewhere. Most African countries are in this category, from Egypt to Gabon, etc. But Israel? Is it a democracy when its blocus of Gaza puts millions of people in a sort of giant jail? When hundreds of civilians are killed every year? When people can be thrown in jail by the administration for no public reason, and kept in for years without seeing a judge? In the same way, in 1945 there were far worse violations of the human rights outside of India than inside India, so why would anyone care for the way UK was ruling over India? And was France a democracy in 1960, when it ruled over Algeria with millions of second-class citizens and with a systemic use of torture?
ethotool 4y ago
- koheripbal 4y ago
  There's a lot of dishonesty in this comment. I encourage people to watch the video linked above. The relevant part is 3m30s in and judge for themselves. He very clearly did not say anything close to what you claim. I really don't understand your hate.
  - ethotool 4y ago
    Here’s the video since my original comment was flagged. How is that hate? I quoted what he said word for word at 3:30 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFqWZYW4Boc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFqWZYW4Boc
    - nailer 4y ago
      Thanks for posting it again. I meant to reply that your quote was incorrect at the time but was rate limited. I'm glad someone else pointed it out. > Palestinians “crash planes into skyscrapers in New York” This is false. The man speaking says terrorists, not Palestinians, crash planes into skyscrapers in New York. Please watch the video and confirm it for yourself.
    - koheripbal 4y ago
      "word for word". I don't think you understand what that means. ...unless you're equating the word "terrorist" with "Palestinian", in which case you should be offended at yourself.
- golergka 4y ago
  > racist ideology Israel has a right to exist as a nation state just like any other country in the world. This belief is not racist, and any decent person on Earth should be a Zionist by definition, just as he should support all other nation's rights to self-determination and freedom. Anti-zionism, on the other hand, denies jewish people this right, and is inherently a deeply racist and oppresive ideology.
Proven 4y ago
diebeforei485 4y ago
The sort of surveillance and checkpoints China imposes on the Uyghurs in Xinjiang is abhorrent, and so is what Israel imposes on Palestinians.
crmd 4y ago
It is effortless for me to keep my political opinions airgapped from my work environment. While I emphatically believe my political positions are correct, I know that plenty of people don't agree with me on contentious topics. To bring my politics to work, especially as a senior leader, borders on abuse of power, because my role in the organization would confer unearned authority to my political opinions. I learned this early in my career when I discovered that my company's senior management were all members of an ultra-conservative Catholic sect. I remember censoring myself as a young person because I knew many of my opinions were not aligned with the values and culture of the management team. I"ll never forget how that made me feel, and I hope I never make a young colleague feel the way I did.
- vharuck 4y ago
  The kind of "politics" to avoid at work is the kind you avoid in polite conversation: irrelevant. If one's work has nothing to do with Israel, then talking about it must causes problems. But if the work has an effect on the matter, then it's not just politics, it's work. And work should be talked about at work. That way, the people who make the decisions get relevant information. Politics can be messy, but we have to slog through those messes that fall along our path. >I"ll never forget how that made me feel, and I hope I never make a young colleague feel the way I did. That's a good lesson to be aware that power can unintentionally cause chilling effects (like in your experience). But I don't think that applies here, where an employee was trying to influence decision-makers up the hierarchy.
- vinceguidry 4y ago
  Political heft belongs to those who talk the loudest and organize the most effectively. Unstated political opinions do neither.
- o_1 4y ago
  You'll always be at the behest of a system of power in any Job. Optimizing some minscule political opinion space will only be temporary. If you believe you're voice is "correct" you will have unilateral bias towards anyone who opposes it. You might start become your prior bosses. If you want an open discussion start with the premise you might not always be correct. Listening to people traveled different journies make you understand the world and have empathy for opposing positions. You don't have to agree with someone to respect them. Also I agree suffering the feeling of suppression and silence is frustrating.
UtopiaPunk 4y ago
I'm seeing several comments here demonstrating that some people do not understand the long conflict between Palestine and Israel. That's too bad, but understandable, as the United States government in particular has been uniquely supportive of Israel and has defended its interest. Public criticism has been easily squashed by dismissing anything negative regarding Israel's policies as anti-Semitic. There's a great documentary on the subject called Roadmap To Apartheid and I encourage folks to check it out. It describes Israel/Palestine as an Apartheid state, comparing it to Apartheid South Africa (and even discusses how the two governments cooperated with one another). It was released in 2012 and is about 95 minutes long. A little ironically, the most convenient way to stream it is to pay a few bucks to YouTube or Amazon. Here is the YouTube link: https://youtu.be/s_hFKinVdBQ https://youtu.be/s_hFKinVdBQ
- nebula8804 4y ago
  I am sorry to see you are being auto downvoted but yeah discussion of this is always heavily squashed here and on Reddit. It seems like a hopeless situation but I am happy to see that the younger generation has differing views with their Boomer parents. Maybe something will come of that. Thanks for the documentary, I'll check it out and promote it as much as I can.
- nailer 4y ago
  You're being downvoted because you're not making the argument here. "Read my book" or "Watch my film" isn't an effective answer to the question of why you'd think a state where Jews and Arabs and Europeans have equal rights is an apartheid state.
  - nebula8804 4y ago
    >isn't an effective answer to the question of why you'd think a state where Jews and Arabs and Europeans have equal rights is an apartheid state. You are acting in bad faith here as you know this is not effectively true (as many others have already pointed out with sources).
    - 4y ago
adultSwim 4y ago
"Resigned" is a bit of a mischaracterization. Then, in November, she said, came a surprising ultimatum from Google: Agree to move to Sao Paulo, Brazil, within 17 business days or lose your job.
al_mandi 4y ago
Good on her standing against a murderous apartheid regime. Hopefully more follow.
RickJWagner 4y ago
When will people finally realize? - The goal is a diverse workplace. - A diverse workplace means many religions, skin colors, sexualities, etc. - The more diversity, the better the chances some corporate political statement is going to offend co-workers. - The best policy is to not discuss politics or religion in the workplace. This provides the best environment for diversity.

199 points by tomerbd 4y ago

mc32 4y ago

This is the result of the clash between naïve idealism and the realities of revenue (and maybe some realpolitik). Undermining company revenue, usually isn't met with enthusiasm.

TaylorAlexander 4y ago
I don’t know if it’s fair to call it naïve idealism. There’s lots of reasons to get frustrated working at google, and when you see that they’re participating in an apartheid system it’s worth protesting and trying to get them to change, even if you don’t believe chances of success are high. You can be realistic (rather than naïve) and still feel it is worthwhile to protest, and to quit if that fails. The publicity of the protest also helps other people avoid the mistake of working for a company that supports or is indifferent to apartheid.

bawolff 4y ago

I appreciate this is not quite the same thing, but i can't help but wonder what someone who finds survelience morally reprehensible, is doing at a company that is primarily in the business of tracking users.

kajecounterhack 4y ago
They found the treatment of Palestine by Israel to be the morally reprehensible thing -- not specifically data collection itself but weaponized data for enacting a system of oppression.
- sneak 4y ago
  The data collected by Google on everyone is used by the US government as a weapon to enact a system of oppression, otherwise they wouldn’t use warrantless PRISM/FAA702 to pull data from the servers and would instead use normal legal search warrants based on probable cause.
- nailer 4y ago
  Wouldn’t you want to track a nearby territory ran by leaders that publicly call for your destruction?
  - sfvegandude 4y ago
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

worik 4y ago

"Instead of listening to employees who want Google to live up to its ethical principles" But Google is. It is ethics that this person disagrees with (me too) but "index the world's data" is, to paraphrase, Google's sole mission

softwareoiu 4y ago

atemerev 4y ago

“In her statement, Koren also singled out “Jewglers,” a forum for Jewish Google employees, for not accommodating Jews who hold anti-Zionist views.” Zionism is the belief that Israel has the right to exist, and that Jews have the right to live in Israel. If you are against this, your views are quite extremist and it is hard to find understanding and accommodation, particularly among fellow Jews.

m_eiman 4y ago
To quote Wikipedia: "Advocates of Zionism view it as a national liberation movement for the repatriation of a persecuted people to its ancestral homeland. Anti-Zionists view it as a colonialist, racist or exceptionalist ideology or movement."
lostlogin 4y ago
The wiki on Zionism says this toward the end: “Anti-Zionists view it as a colonialist, racist or exceptionalist ideology or movement.” Characterising the groups views as believing Israel should not exist seems disingenuous. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism
guelo 4y ago
Zionism is an anti-democratic, explicitly racist belief that only Jews should have governing power over all land west of the jordan river.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- cb504 4y ago
  Don't the Palestinians think the same thing, that only Palestinians should have governing power over all land west of the jordan river?
  - smcl 4y ago
    I'm sure many want the land that their families lost long ago when Israel was established and plenty of Palestinians are enraged enough by the ongoing human rights abuses that they suffer that they'll curse the Israeli state. Some will even say some pretty radical shit about it, probably similar to what Ukrainians might say of the invading Russians, or even what some Irish said of the Brits back during their independence struggle. However if you were to right now offer the people of Palestine a guaranteed peace with a two-state solution based on the Oslo accords they would overwhelmingly vote to accept it. I don't think you could say the same of anyone who describes themselves as a Zionist. Though I don't know how widespread that belief is among the Israeli population, it's entirely likely a similar majority in Israel would be satisfied with such a solution.

hourago 4y ago

> “Due to retaliation, a hostile environment, and illegal actions by the company, I cannot continue to work at Google and have no choice but to leave the company at the end of this week,” Ariel Koren said in a statement posted Tuesday to Medium. Many people is missing the point. "Retaliation" is illegal. > Google denied retaliation and the National Labor Relations Board found no wrongdoing after an investigation In my experience this kind of investigation have very high standards on what is considered "retaliation" as it is very difficult to prove that negating promotions, or moving people to new positions is directly related to "retaliation". Maybe it was just a misunderstanding by the employee, but I would like to see more realistic investigations that take into account the timing of the companies actions.

EdwardDiego 4y ago
Boycotting Israel gets your company in trouble with various state governments in the US, like no supplying services to the government, and in Arkansas, it gets even more viral in that people you supply services to are forbidden from supplying services to the government. My RH contract specifically forbade boycotting Israel, I'm sure for those reasons. And of course, I imagine that Israel has laws about doing business there that look dimly on being boycotted. It's very very dumb legislation, and I think derives from a very odd facet of belief found in some American Protestant belief systems - that for Jesus to come back, the State of Israel has to exist.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- georgia_peach 4y ago
  - dang 4y ago
    You can't do this kind of flamewar here, obviously*, and we've warned you before, so I've banned the account. * https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

botanical 4y ago

I applaud her for her courage. Israel has seemingly been given leeway to do as they please when it comes to Palestianian freedom of movement. And Google's none the better with their AI drone programme. I mean Palestinians have it hard to put it lightly. Israel is an Apartheid State that's enacting a harsh Apartheid system against these people: * Illegal Settlers living in Palestine can vote in Israel but not Palestinians. Apartheid South Africa did the same, they put the people in their own "country" and so couldn't vote. Israel doesn't want 2 states as that would mean millions more voting. * Israel has ethnically cleansed and fragmented areas into [isolated cantons divided by Israeli settlements](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_enclaves https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_enclaves), and implemented [lebensraum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensraum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensraum) tactics. This was called [Bantustans](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bantustan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bantustan) in South Africa. * [It denies Palestinian fishing past 3 nautical miles in some areas, and not past 15 nautical miles](https://www.ochaopt.org/sites/default/files/styles/inline100_standard/public/images/gaza2.png https://www.ochaopt.org/sites/default/files/styles/inline100...) * [The Apartheid Separation wall](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d0/73/81/d07381fffef632350bcbb535bbaeced8.jpg https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d0/73/81/d07381fffef632350bcb...)? * The settlers killing, and burning homes to get rid of people and destroying olive tree groves. * [They control the water completely](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_supply_and_sanitation_in_the_State_of_Palestine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_supply_and_sanitation_in...). * [They get 12 hours of electricity a day](https://www.ochaopt.org/page/gaza-strip-electricity-supply https://www.ochaopt.org/page/gaza-strip-electricity-supply). * Palestinians didn't have 3G until 2018, their access is also restricted. * They [blockade](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip) Gaza, making it a prison. * [Not All Israeli Citizens Are Equal](https://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/24/opinion/not-all-israeli-citizens-are-equal.html https://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/24/opinion/not-all-israeli-c...) * There were `5,248,185` Palestinian refugees in 2020; that's equal to half the population of Israel. * [Israel dictates who you can marry](https://preview.redd.it/1k7jnev0pq971.jpg?width=1024&auto=webp&s=8ae55bbb3f4cdf4a5bab72b249b1e003ce2bf926 https://preview.redd.it/1k7jnev0pq971.jpg?width=1024&auto=we...) * [Segregated road system](https://s3.amazonaws.com/VP2/visuals/en/4db97391fe7cb246224980917f5bd997.png?2015 https://s3.amazonaws.com/VP2/visuals/en/4db97391fe7cb2462249...) * 50% of Palestinians are children. As someone from South Africa, I've seen ethnic cleansing and Israel is doing worse. Israel is absolutely an Apartheid state. Various human rights organisations have already stated this And it seems in the comments here, Zionism is conflated with anti-semitism. Zionism is extreme nationalism (at the expense of innocent Palestinians), not anti-Jew.

robertwt7 4y ago

Who doesn’t do surveillance these days? Seems pretty naive from a Google employee. A company that tracks user as one of the main business model.

KKKKkkkk1 4y ago

Just read the NLRB dismissal letter of her complaint [0]. The NLRB found that Google decided to offer her a relocation from Mexico to Brazil before she started her BDS crusade against Google. By the way, discrimination on the basis of national origin is against Google policy and against federal and CA state law. These laws protect Israelis just like anyone else. [0] https://www.nlrb.gov/case/20-CA-286745 https://www.nlrb.gov/case/20-CA-286745

wildrhythms 4y ago
I don't understand how you came to the conclusion that Israelis are being attacked in this instance.
- parkingrift 4y ago
  Refusing to build a data center in Israel, as Koren wanted.
  - namdnay 4y ago
    That's the state of Israel, not Israelis. You can refuse to open a factory in China for moral reasons, but still be perfectly friendly with your chinese colleagues
    - parkingrift 4y ago
      Yeah I think that’s probably an argument a court would agree with. I wonder to what extent it is applicable. Is there not harm to Israeli peoples if Google refuses to build a data center in Israel?

dncornholio 4y ago

Not sure what disgusts me more, the term Jewglers or the fact that she faked the retaliation. This story just doesn't add up.

batch12 4y ago
For what it's worth, it looks like Jewglers is a name the group calls itself [0]. It doesn't appear to be some racist phrase the employee made up. [0] https://www.seroundtable.com/photos/google-jewglers-menorah-sticker-31106.html https://www.seroundtable.com/photos/google-jewglers-menorah-...
- KoftaBob 4y ago
  Also (just for context), the employee in question is also Jewish.

lizardactivist 4y ago

Very brave of her to stand up and say this. She sets an example, and more should follow.

sigzero 4y ago
As long as you are willing to face the consequences (being fired) certainly.
- manholio 4y ago
  Stalin would agree, there is a pervasive misunderstanding that he was against free speech - in reality, he was against speaking freely and living after speaking.

mellosouls 4y ago

As much as I tire of activist employee stories, at least in this instance she has resigned rather than trying to force other employees out for having different opinions which is often the case in these news items, so respect to her for that.

kurupt213 4y ago
We don’t know that she didn’t focus on doing that until finally pushed out (I mean resigned)

qikInNdOutReply 4y ago

The world is full of these "conflict" spillovers into civilian life in europe right now. Palastinians vs Israelis (or Jews in general), Kurds vs Turks, Shiits vs Sunnits, Wahabi vs all, Thai Royalists vs Students, CCP controlled student chapters vs those with no family ties to the mainland. Also the remnants of old war and warcrimes, being used in these show up time and time again. Todays japanese are dragged for the WW2 crimes through the mud by some old geezers. The ideals have decayed, another great game is in full swing and these stories of the past, are great to prevent any discussion of the present and to feel selfrightous while comitting similar crimes on a smaller scale. Nobody is really interested in preventing these atrocities, a ton of people are interested in keeping them alive as ammonition.

hillsboroughman 4y ago
It is true that ideals have decayed. US government did not retaliate strongly enough against the Tienanmen Square massacre back in 1989. Trade was much more important. Now US is critical of all the surveillance and other repressive things that the Chinese government does. But they missed the bus more than 20 years ago. To take the story to its origin, President Nixon's presiding over the opening to China back in 1972 effectively killed the Tibetan resistance movement. As part of signalling their good intentions, the US withdrew all support to the Tibetan resistance movement from one day to the next. All the Tibetan freedom fighters fled overnight to India. Now governments and media talk about human rights in Tibet. The opportunity to do something about it was lost long back. Read 'The Noodle Maker of Kalimpong' by the Dalai Lama's older brother.
blackoil 4y ago
International relations have never been about ideals and morals. We had colonialism, slavery, European nation exploited other continents for centuries, great game in Afghanistan and Middle East between Britain and Russian Empire and later USA. US supported autocratic rulers in Korea and Taiwan. US funded coups against democratic govt in Central and South America and Iran. US supported Pakistan govt in human right violations against what is now Bangladesh. Ukraine has supported Saudi's human right violations against Yaman. Ukraine and China has supported military govt. in Myanmar which toppled democratic govt.

kurupt213 4y ago

Where’s the disgust about working China, the modern day Nazis

case0x00 4y ago
quite. it is very frustrating seeing _every single thread_ about israel turn into hateful rhetoric, spreading lies and propaganda, using buzzwords they heard somewhere, and generally not understanding history at all. but threads about china/KSA/UAE/etc. are free of this. this isn't whataboutism, its important to care about humans rights issues in multiple countries, but its just weird how hate-fueled people get about israel. That is the one thing I dont get. I keep seeing people say that people cannot criticize israel, but that is _all_ I see in the media and in online forums. _every single pro-israel point_ here is downvoted. it isn't antisemetic to criticize israel but yikes do people really get passionate about their hatred for it specifically, more so than any other country. antisemitism isn't antizionism but people really do end up parroting the exact same talking points as antisemitism. it really concerns me about HN honestly. at a point people really need to look within themselves and ask are they actually antisemitic?
- LtWorf 4y ago
  That's because you are free to criticise China or Iran, but get accused of being a nazi for pointing out Israel does similar things. That makes people more angry.
- dirtyid 4y ago
  > cannot criticize israel IMO large part of distaste for Israel is reflection of how criticizing Israel doesn't do shit due to how entrenched and influential Israel Lobby is in US politics and centrality of Israel is to US foreign policy in MENA. Let's be real, Israel isn't going to get substantively sanctioned by US + LIO co for any of the henious shit they do. There's plenty of hate boners for PRC/KSA as well, but also tangible policy/diplomatic actions against these "bad actors" while Israel get's off with relatively light slaps. The long running hypocrisy and impunity is a bad look and triggers broad groups, most of whom IMO are simply anti-Israli influence because it's a reflection on how realist and interest driven US foreign policy actually is. Optically, frequently it looks like US can't keep Israel on a short leash, and sometimes the dog is walking the owner, this pisses off from antisemites who simply hates Jews to murica exceptionalists who thinks Israel is functionally a vassal and everyone in between. TBH pro Israel propaganda is doing pretty well all things considered. Evoking antisemitism seems to work out better than sinophobia or islamaphobia at least in MSM.

jimbob45 4y ago

Project Nimbus, costing $1.2 billion, will transfer Israel’s data into six cloud-based storage centers over the next several years. Koren said the project would enable surveillance of Palestinians. Bit of a stretch, isn’t it? You could theoretically claim that these cloud centers are responsible for anything that Israel does that you’re not a fan of, by her logic. In reality, they’re just cloud centers, she hates Israel, and will take any excuse to hurt them in any way possible.

rgejman 4y ago

The problem from the perspective of many Jews (including myself) is that these kinds of protests and protestors tend to focus on Israel to the exclusion of any other state. Where is the protest of Google's relationships with dozens of other countries accused of major human rights violations? The double standard when it comes to Israel calls into question the motivation behind the protest and makes many Jews reasonably wonder if it is actually anti-semitic (even when coming from fellow Jews).

Pulcinella 4y ago
One example of employee’s protesting Google’s business with China: https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2018/11/27/google-employees-go-public-protest-china-search-engine-dragonfly/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2018/11/27/google-... One example of employee’s protesting Google’s business with the USA https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/19/google-employees-implore-leaders-to-stop-working-with-us-bcp-ice.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/19/google-employees-implore-lea...
LtWorf 4y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
idoubtit 4y ago
The problem is that Israel is seen as a "friend state" and Israel claims to be a democracy. So we expect higher standards of ethics than most other countries. The other reason is that we (western countries) could have a strong influence to make the crimes stop. Of course, "evil states" like Russia or China are not expected to behave well. And anyway, we (western countries and western companies) don't have much influence on them. So it's easy to abundantly criticize them. Some "friend states" are clearly dictatorial and commit mass crimes, but we (western government and western opinions) don't expect much of them on human rights. Saudi Arabia started the Yemen war which killed 380,000 people (according to UNO), mostly Yemeni civilians, but who cares? Slaughtering a journalist in Turkey got more attention, because it was more spectacular. Other "friend states" are less openly dictatorial (they have polls, even if often rigged) and only slaughter their political opponents. Then it's easy to just look elsewhere. Most African countries are in this category, from Egypt to Gabon, etc. But Israel? Is it a democracy when its blocus of Gaza puts millions of people in a sort of giant jail? When hundreds of civilians are killed every year? When people can be thrown in jail by the administration for no public reason, and kept in for years without seeing a judge? In the same way, in 1945 there were far worse violations of the human rights outside of India than inside India, so why would anyone care for the way UK was ruling over India? And was France a democracy in 1960, when it ruled over Algeria with millions of second-class citizens and with a systemic use of torture?

ethotool 4y ago

koheripbal 4y ago
There's a lot of dishonesty in this comment. I encourage people to watch the video linked above. The relevant part is 3m30s in and judge for themselves. He very clearly did not say anything close to what you claim. I really don't understand your hate.
- ethotool 4y ago
  Here’s the video since my original comment was flagged. How is that hate? I quoted what he said word for word at 3:30 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFqWZYW4Boc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFqWZYW4Boc
  - nailer 4y ago
    Thanks for posting it again. I meant to reply that your quote was incorrect at the time but was rate limited. I'm glad someone else pointed it out. > Palestinians “crash planes into skyscrapers in New York” This is false. The man speaking says terrorists, not Palestinians, crash planes into skyscrapers in New York. Please watch the video and confirm it for yourself.
  - koheripbal 4y ago
    "word for word". I don't think you understand what that means. ...unless you're equating the word "terrorist" with "Palestinian", in which case you should be offended at yourself.
golergka 4y ago
> racist ideology Israel has a right to exist as a nation state just like any other country in the world. This belief is not racist, and any decent person on Earth should be a Zionist by definition, just as he should support all other nation's rights to self-determination and freedom. Anti-zionism, on the other hand, denies jewish people this right, and is inherently a deeply racist and oppresive ideology.

Proven 4y ago

diebeforei485 4y ago

The sort of surveillance and checkpoints China imposes on the Uyghurs in Xinjiang is abhorrent, and so is what Israel imposes on Palestinians.

crmd 4y ago

It is effortless for me to keep my political opinions airgapped from my work environment. While I emphatically believe my political positions are correct, I know that plenty of people don't agree with me on contentious topics. To bring my politics to work, especially as a senior leader, borders on abuse of power, because my role in the organization would confer unearned authority to my political opinions. I learned this early in my career when I discovered that my company's senior management were all members of an ultra-conservative Catholic sect. I remember censoring myself as a young person because I knew many of my opinions were not aligned with the values and culture of the management team. I"ll never forget how that made me feel, and I hope I never make a young colleague feel the way I did.

vharuck 4y ago
The kind of "politics" to avoid at work is the kind you avoid in polite conversation: irrelevant. If one's work has nothing to do with Israel, then talking about it must causes problems. But if the work has an effect on the matter, then it's not just politics, it's work. And work should be talked about at work. That way, the people who make the decisions get relevant information. Politics can be messy, but we have to slog through those messes that fall along our path. >I"ll never forget how that made me feel, and I hope I never make a young colleague feel the way I did. That's a good lesson to be aware that power can unintentionally cause chilling effects (like in your experience). But I don't think that applies here, where an employee was trying to influence decision-makers up the hierarchy.
vinceguidry 4y ago
Political heft belongs to those who talk the loudest and organize the most effectively. Unstated political opinions do neither.
o_1 4y ago
You'll always be at the behest of a system of power in any Job. Optimizing some minscule political opinion space will only be temporary. If you believe you're voice is "correct" you will have unilateral bias towards anyone who opposes it. You might start become your prior bosses. If you want an open discussion start with the premise you might not always be correct. Listening to people traveled different journies make you understand the world and have empathy for opposing positions. You don't have to agree with someone to respect them. Also I agree suffering the feeling of suppression and silence is frustrating.

UtopiaPunk 4y ago

I'm seeing several comments here demonstrating that some people do not understand the long conflict between Palestine and Israel. That's too bad, but understandable, as the United States government in particular has been uniquely supportive of Israel and has defended its interest. Public criticism has been easily squashed by dismissing anything negative regarding Israel's policies as anti-Semitic. There's a great documentary on the subject called Roadmap To Apartheid and I encourage folks to check it out. It describes Israel/Palestine as an Apartheid state, comparing it to Apartheid South Africa (and even discusses how the two governments cooperated with one another). It was released in 2012 and is about 95 minutes long. A little ironically, the most convenient way to stream it is to pay a few bucks to YouTube or Amazon. Here is the YouTube link: https://youtu.be/s_hFKinVdBQ https://youtu.be/s_hFKinVdBQ

nebula8804 4y ago
I am sorry to see you are being auto downvoted but yeah discussion of this is always heavily squashed here and on Reddit. It seems like a hopeless situation but I am happy to see that the younger generation has differing views with their Boomer parents. Maybe something will come of that. Thanks for the documentary, I'll check it out and promote it as much as I can.
nailer 4y ago
You're being downvoted because you're not making the argument here. "Read my book" or "Watch my film" isn't an effective answer to the question of why you'd think a state where Jews and Arabs and Europeans have equal rights is an apartheid state.
- nebula8804 4y ago
  >isn't an effective answer to the question of why you'd think a state where Jews and Arabs and Europeans have equal rights is an apartheid state. You are acting in bad faith here as you know this is not effectively true (as many others have already pointed out with sources).
  - 4y ago

adultSwim 4y ago

"Resigned" is a bit of a mischaracterization. Then, in November, she said, came a surprising ultimatum from Google: Agree to move to Sao Paulo, Brazil, within 17 business days or lose your job.

al_mandi 4y ago

Good on her standing against a murderous apartheid regime. Hopefully more follow.

RickJWagner 4y ago

When will people finally realize? - The goal is a diverse workplace. - A diverse workplace means many religions, skin colors, sexualities, etc. - The more diversity, the better the chances some corporate political statement is going to offend co-workers. - The best policy is to not discuss politics or religion in the workplace. This provides the best environment for diversity.