10 ms·

Teslas Can Be Tricked into Stopping Too Early by Bigger Stop Signs

36 points by MBCook 4y ago

pengaru 4y ago
Large off-ramp stop signs are clearly an edge case nobody should expect to be handled well. /s
melling 4y ago
Time to “Cut the Gordian Knot” for self-driving cars? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordian_Knot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordian_Knot Let’s figure out how to make the problem easier to solve.
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  The solution is lidar but Elon refuses to use them for cost reasons and still thinks everything can be done with cameras because "that's how our vision works". Most weird autopilot goofs and accidents stem from the car not knowing the exact distance to the object its seeing with its cameras.
  - quantified 4y ago
    Our vision only works because of "brains" and "optic nerves".
    - cestith 4y ago
      A neural net properly trained with binocular vision should be able to estimate the size and distance of the sign and the distance of the sign from the actual intersection. LIDAR is still probably way easier to get right, though.
    - bergenty 4y ago
      We don’t have AGI yet so those are not enough for a car.
      - vardump 4y ago
        Does a fly have an AGI? Or a bee? They seem to be able to do pretty complex navigational tasks with just visual and olfactory system with a minimal power budget.
        quantified 4y ago
        True, so Tesla is not clearing even a much lower bar.
        bergenty 4y ago
        Sure it’s a general intelligence, why wouldn’t it be?
  - d_tr 4y ago
    > Most weird autopilot goofs and accidents stem from the car not knowing the exact distance to the object its seeing with its cameras. What about crappy roads with worn markings, missing / damaged signs or out of order traffic lights? How well are these handled?
  - powerhour 4y ago
    I wonder if there's some patent issue preventing them from using LiDAR and by extension preventing Musk from admitting its superiority.
  - hnburnsy 4y ago
    I don't think lidar is the only solution, passive\smart infrastructure changes and car to car communications could overcome many issues.
    - BeefWellington 4y ago
      I think once you get to "overhaul civil infrastructure" vs "install lidar on cars" you've lost the thread a little bit here. Those suggestions are at least an order of magnitude harder to accomplish than simply installing a better sensor suite on the car.
      - parkingrift 4y ago
        Lidar isn’t a silver bullet. Google has been at it for over a decade and their taxi service still gets confused by traffic cones. The cheapest Tesla is the base Model 3 at $49,000. How much more expensive would it be with lidar? It’s already inaccessible to the masses.
        BeefWellington 4y ago
        I'm not sure Tesla was ever aiming to have cars "Accessible to the masses" as their initial target. They seem, at least to me, to always be aiming at the more luxury end of the market. Regarding lidar itself not being the silver bullet, that's true. The real silver bullet will be when we have an actual AI and not just stacked ML models. The difference between parsing visual and other sensor data and using that to navigate the world and understanding that visual and sensor data is a very sizeable one and I suspect until we get a reasonably decent task-focused AI capable of understanding we're going to see lots of these kinds of shortcomings.
        parkingrift 4y ago
        Well I called out the Model 3 specifically as it was supposed to have been the car for the masses. I consider it way too expensive for the masses, but it’s likely one of the most affordable pure EVs you can buy, even at the high price. I suspect actual self driving to follow the Pareto principle. The last 20% will take 80% of the time. And I’m not even convinced we’ve hit the 80% yet, anyway.
jqpabc123 4y ago
So basically, their self driving software assumes that stop signs are all the same size and is using some simple scaling algorithm to judge where to stop? And this is what passes for AI? The singularity is upon us folks. Just give me a simple car with analog guages and a Bluetooth radio so I can talk hands free and listen to the 100+ albums I have stored on my phone. I'll provide any "intelligence" required, thank you very much.
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  >And this is what passes for AI? Autopilot is kind of a scam. Marketing and economic pixie dust from Elon over a basic camera lane assist system to make sure Teslas attract customers and hold their prestige and value. But no, FSD is perpetually 6 months around the corner for him.
  - d_tr 4y ago
    I do not know what buyers actually expect, but the phrase "FSD Beta" should sound very stupid to anyone with half a brain. It means that it almost drives like a human or better and it needs a bit of polishing. It is not only false, it is irresponsible too in this context.
  - jqpabc123 4y ago
    Autopilot is kind of a scam. AI is kind of a scam --- and autopilot is just one example. FSD is perpetually 6 months around the corner for him. And will probably remain so for decades to come.
    - Hellion 4y ago
      “AI” is not a scam, but it’s a very wide term that people abuse. The self driving software packages that work, the Cruze and Waymos and Mercedes of the world, are in limited careful rollout. These companies and teams want to make sure it’s safe and robust before entering mass market adoption. Tesla is one of the weakest and most immature offerings of the major players, and it has been given the widest distribution. It is utterly frustrating.
Ekaros 4y ago
I'm not sure about USA, but here stop signs placement doesn't indicate the location to stop. Instead it is the line on the road if present. Or in such location where the visibility is sufficient. Fun to know that the system would fail here...
- nrki 4y ago
  In many places in the US, and indeed other countries, the "stop line" can be worn almost completely away, or a road just repaved may not yet have one.
moistly 4y ago
So I think I have a pretty good idea for successful hitchhiking or hold-ups…
- mwint 4y ago
  You can already make fake road signs and trick human drivers.
  - moistly 4y ago
    Humans are unreliable. Thanks to Elon’s incompetence, my scheme will stop all the FSD Teslas all the time. And what better target, than those who can afford to piss away five figures on a half-assed scam!
michaelwww 4y ago
Some campgrounds and trailer parks use small stop signs. Does this mean it will stop too late?
hnburnsy 4y ago
Apparently there is a standard for the sizes of regulatory road signs... https://mutcd.info/mutcd-2009-standard-regulatory-sign-sizes/ https://mutcd.info/mutcd-2009-standard-regulatory-sign-sizes...
- googlryas 4y ago
  Yes, but private businesses/roadways don't need to follow them(though they mostly do).
- londons_explore 4y ago
  "Non-standard sign causes non-standard but still safe behaviour" isn't as good a headline...
iamgopal 4y ago
If only Tesla could have outsourced FSD to Google.

36 points by MBCook 4y ago

Large off-ramp stop signs are clearly an edge case nobody should expect to be handled well. /s

Time to “Cut the Gordian Knot” for self-driving cars? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordian_Knot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordian_Knot Let’s figure out how to make the problem easier to solve.

ChuckNorris89 4y ago
The solution is lidar but Elon refuses to use them for cost reasons and still thinks everything can be done with cameras because "that's how our vision works". Most weird autopilot goofs and accidents stem from the car not knowing the exact distance to the object its seeing with its cameras.
- quantified 4y ago
  Our vision only works because of "brains" and "optic nerves".
  - cestith 4y ago
    A neural net properly trained with binocular vision should be able to estimate the size and distance of the sign and the distance of the sign from the actual intersection. LIDAR is still probably way easier to get right, though.
  - bergenty 4y ago
    We don’t have AGI yet so those are not enough for a car.
    - vardump 4y ago
      Does a fly have an AGI? Or a bee? They seem to be able to do pretty complex navigational tasks with just visual and olfactory system with a minimal power budget.
      - quantified 4y ago
        True, so Tesla is not clearing even a much lower bar.
      - bergenty 4y ago
        Sure it’s a general intelligence, why wouldn’t it be?
- d_tr 4y ago
  > Most weird autopilot goofs and accidents stem from the car not knowing the exact distance to the object its seeing with its cameras. What about crappy roads with worn markings, missing / damaged signs or out of order traffic lights? How well are these handled?
- powerhour 4y ago
  I wonder if there's some patent issue preventing them from using LiDAR and by extension preventing Musk from admitting its superiority.
- hnburnsy 4y ago
  I don't think lidar is the only solution, passive\smart infrastructure changes and car to car communications could overcome many issues.
  - BeefWellington 4y ago
    I think once you get to "overhaul civil infrastructure" vs "install lidar on cars" you've lost the thread a little bit here. Those suggestions are at least an order of magnitude harder to accomplish than simply installing a better sensor suite on the car.
    - parkingrift 4y ago
      Lidar isn’t a silver bullet. Google has been at it for over a decade and their taxi service still gets confused by traffic cones. The cheapest Tesla is the base Model 3 at $49,000. How much more expensive would it be with lidar? It’s already inaccessible to the masses.
      - BeefWellington 4y ago
        I'm not sure Tesla was ever aiming to have cars "Accessible to the masses" as their initial target. They seem, at least to me, to always be aiming at the more luxury end of the market. Regarding lidar itself not being the silver bullet, that's true. The real silver bullet will be when we have an actual AI and not just stacked ML models. The difference between parsing visual and other sensor data and using that to navigate the world and understanding that visual and sensor data is a very sizeable one and I suspect until we get a reasonably decent task-focused AI capable of understanding we're going to see lots of these kinds of shortcomings.
        parkingrift 4y ago
        Well I called out the Model 3 specifically as it was supposed to have been the car for the masses. I consider it way too expensive for the masses, but it’s likely one of the most affordable pure EVs you can buy, even at the high price. I suspect actual self driving to follow the Pareto principle. The last 20% will take 80% of the time. And I’m not even convinced we’ve hit the 80% yet, anyway.

jqpabc123 4y ago

So basically, their self driving software assumes that stop signs are all the same size and is using some simple scaling algorithm to judge where to stop? And this is what passes for AI? The singularity is upon us folks. Just give me a simple car with analog guages and a Bluetooth radio so I can talk hands free and listen to the 100+ albums I have stored on my phone. I'll provide any "intelligence" required, thank you very much.

ChuckNorris89 4y ago
>And this is what passes for AI? Autopilot is kind of a scam. Marketing and economic pixie dust from Elon over a basic camera lane assist system to make sure Teslas attract customers and hold their prestige and value. But no, FSD is perpetually 6 months around the corner for him.
- d_tr 4y ago
  I do not know what buyers actually expect, but the phrase "FSD Beta" should sound very stupid to anyone with half a brain. It means that it almost drives like a human or better and it needs a bit of polishing. It is not only false, it is irresponsible too in this context.
- jqpabc123 4y ago
  Autopilot is kind of a scam. AI is kind of a scam --- and autopilot is just one example. FSD is perpetually 6 months around the corner for him. And will probably remain so for decades to come.
  - Hellion 4y ago
    “AI” is not a scam, but it’s a very wide term that people abuse. The self driving software packages that work, the Cruze and Waymos and Mercedes of the world, are in limited careful rollout. These companies and teams want to make sure it’s safe and robust before entering mass market adoption. Tesla is one of the weakest and most immature offerings of the major players, and it has been given the widest distribution. It is utterly frustrating.

Ekaros 4y ago

I'm not sure about USA, but here stop signs placement doesn't indicate the location to stop. Instead it is the line on the road if present. Or in such location where the visibility is sufficient. Fun to know that the system would fail here...

nrki 4y ago
In many places in the US, and indeed other countries, the "stop line" can be worn almost completely away, or a road just repaved may not yet have one.

moistly 4y ago

So I think I have a pretty good idea for successful hitchhiking or hold-ups…

mwint 4y ago
You can already make fake road signs and trick human drivers.
- moistly 4y ago
  Humans are unreliable. Thanks to Elon’s incompetence, my scheme will stop all the FSD Teslas all the time. And what better target, than those who can afford to piss away five figures on a half-assed scam!

michaelwww 4y ago

Some campgrounds and trailer parks use small stop signs. Does this mean it will stop too late?

hnburnsy 4y ago

Apparently there is a standard for the sizes of regulatory road signs... https://mutcd.info/mutcd-2009-standard-regulatory-sign-sizes/ https://mutcd.info/mutcd-2009-standard-regulatory-sign-sizes...

googlryas 4y ago
Yes, but private businesses/roadways don't need to follow them(though they mostly do).
londons_explore 4y ago
"Non-standard sign causes non-standard but still safe behaviour" isn't as good a headline...

iamgopal 4y ago

If only Tesla could have outsourced FSD to Google.