10 ms·

Don’t think to write, write to think

553 points by herbertl 4y ago

michaelwww 4y ago
I write to think because when I finish typing one thought often another thought naturally follows. The second thought often surprises me. Where'd that come from? It happens more often while writing vs just thinking.
- biomcgary 4y ago
  Sounds like GPT-3. Or, GPT-3 isn't too different from human writing before editing.
  - michaelwww 4y ago
    Maybe GPT-3 could be built into a writing IDE so it would suggest the next sentence that way a programming IDE suggests the next code completion. I'd worry that that would inhibit me from having an original thought, but on the other hand it might encourage me to reject the suggestion and come up with something more original.
    - surfpel 4y ago
      Given than GPT-3 could create narratives, it would probably be too suggestive. Much more simple prediction models for writing (ie: not coding) are used in a few places. Google Docs has a pretty good one.
      - michaelwww 4y ago
        I'm familiar with sentence completion from GMail but I'm talking about thought completion. So for example in a programming IDE it's been true for awhile that it will suggest a name completion, but something new they are adding is suggesting the entire routine you are trying to write. I think CoPilot is even better at this.
        surfpel 4y ago
        > something new they are adding is suggesting the entire routine you are trying to write But that’s only for simple cases where a person could easily predict the next few words, like business communications that stick to a cultural script, no?
        michaelwww 4y ago
        Visual Studio will write the entire function for you. It's pretty neat.
- wrp 4y ago
  This is a well known phenomenon in the study of the psychology of writing. Although we may start writing with an outline in mind, at certain points it feels more natural to go in a direction other than what we planned. This effect becomes more pronounced with greater expertise in writing. Study of the best writers shows that they rarely stick to a plan and are constantly rearranging as they revise a piece.
mostlysimilar 4y ago
I use writing as a means to understand my thoughts. Getting them on paper and editing and refining them helps me think more clearly. I recommend the book Thinking on Paper: https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/1610908.Thinking_on_Paper https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/1610908.Thinking_on_P...
- omwow 4y ago
  Writing forces me to slow down my thinking, and simply by slowing my thoughts down, they become more clear and go deeper. I wonder if simply slowing my thinking down to writing speed (without actually doing the physical act of writing) would have the same effect.
  - mordae 4y ago
    Yes, slowing down helps a lot. You can slow yourself down by thinking an outline and then sticking to it, for example. It won't remove all of the tangents, but it's mostly sufficient for the smaller problems. Typical example; packing for a vacation. You can pack by systematically going through phases of all your vacation days and collecting items you are going to need. If you have decent memory, you could also buffer the items that you need multiple times and collect them at once afterwards. But it is much easier to write it all down. That way you can then fetch it a way that minimizes walked distance and be able to re-check what you bring. Sometimes it strikes you when you see it written; "swimming trunks - should I bring the diving goggles as well?". I think that writing (making a prototype, sketching...) increases surface of the problem you are in contact with. This gives you more insight and "vectors" to attack it from.Like the gigantic list of things for that vacation makes you wonder: "do I really fit it into duffel bag or should I bring out the traveling case? After all, I might be bringing back some souvenirs...".
  - magnanimous45er 4y ago
    Brains work differently. Mine is very unique. If I slow mine down to write I get crippled and lose all thoughts. My brain functions by linking multiple thoughts together. I have one, a new one starts, then I make links between them. I'm super creative though and cannot do technical work.
quercusa 4y ago
I once worked for a guy who couldn't understand how anyone could possibly "write to think". He'd had a career as a high-level consultant who thought in big-picture/hand-wavy terms and never had to worry about implementation. It was not a fun time.
- FerociousTimes 4y ago
  Tell me about it. Even though I'm a big picture type of a guy but I LOVE writing in general and one of the driving forces behind this strong feeling of appreciation for writing is that it makes you think clearer and help too with expressing and understanding your emotions esp. when delving into touchy subjects.
whatever1 4y ago
I never got an idea from writing. Showering or sleeping work better. Writing only helps to interrogate / expand an idea.
angarg12 4y ago
The concept of writing to think more clearly might be starting to become trite, particularly if you are a hardcore techie. However I can't overstate how useful this has been for my career and for me personally. If you haven't written much give it a try. Take some idea that is very clearly formed in your head and put it in paper. I guarantee you'd be surprise how many holes are in your thinking once you try to lie it down.
- _tom_ 4y ago
  Same concept as rubber duck debugging.
  - ethanbond 4y ago
    Kind of but writing has the added benefit of being easily inspectable after fact. Speaking out loud will identify some weak logical points, but writing will catch even more.
  - pavon 4y ago
    This is a big reason why asynchronous communication works better for me. I can't begin to count the number of problems I've solved in the process of writing an email asking for help. And many more times where the question I was intended to ask changed to a completely different, and more useful question. The process of collecting the information I have, ended up pointing to holes in my thought processes and led to the solution. If I had gone straight to Slack I would have wasted other people's time, and cheated myself out of thinking through the problem myself.
    - taxcoder 4y ago
      My employees don't seem to understand why I prefer they email questions to me instead of calling. The clarity writing often brings aids the conversation. I frequently call once I have the email.
    - wenc 4y ago
      Very true. Email forces you to compose rather than emit streams of consciousness. And composing often leads to solutions even before you press Send. https://mobile.twitter.com/b0rk/status/1546875361002135554?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw https://mobile.twitter.com/b0rk/status/1546875361002135554?r...
randallsquared 4y ago
This can't literally be true for anyone, right? By the time you've written down a thought, a dozen more have come and gone, never to be followed up. Writing can perhaps add rigor to thinking, but it's not like thinking in its essentials.
- rahimnathwani 4y ago
  You've written many HN comments. Do you ever, after starting to write a comment, but before hitting submit, have a new thought that changes your mind a bit? Does that ever make you go back to edit what you've written, either before you submit, or shortly after?
  - hluska 4y ago
    Honestly friend, this is some exceptional writing (and thus thinking). I read the parent comment and wanted to say roughly the same thing, but you absolutely nailed it. This is great work and an excellent comment.
  - BLKNSLVR 4y ago
    Or get so close to the end of the point you're trying to make, and then BAM, you realise an alternate interpretation of the post you're replying to, which, upon further consideration is more likely the intended interpretation of the comment, than what your now almost-completely typed reply was addressing, rendering the reply pointless. There's so much processing the brain does in the background, that it makes the foreground seem young and foolish.
  - randallsquared 4y ago
    Sure! I'll even agree (trivially, I guess) that thinking is definitely a part of that process... but that doesn't seem to contradict my earlier comment. I really just mean the "thinking" metaphor for writing is very far from my experience of what ordinary thinking is like -- so much that it seems bizarre to me to conflate them.
    - rahimnathwani 4y ago
scombridae 4y ago
Another Chinese-American came to the same conclusion seven years earlier: So what is the purpose of writing? It turns out that there is one, and that it has nothing to do with communication. It’s that writing clarifies thinking. [1] [1] https://blog.evanchen.cc/2015/03/14/writing/ https://blog.evanchen.cc/2015/03/14/writing/
- zomglings 4y ago
  Why does the ethnic background of the authors matter?
mayoff 4y ago
“If you think without writing down your thoughts, you only think you're thinking.” – Leslie Lamport https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/video/thinking-for-programmers-rising-above-the-code/ https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/video/thinking-for-...
arcastroe 4y ago
Some people find writing daunting. An email, an eng doc, or whatever. However, editing pre-written text is a lot easier. If you don't know where to start, start _anywhere_. Because once something is there, editing it is a breeze.
slowmovintarget 4y ago
"Writing is thinking. To write well is to think clearly. That's why it's so hard." -- David McCullough, in an interview in 2002. RIP David.
Wagthesam 4y ago
writing is one of the only ways I can think these days, along with talking to others and sounding out ideas.
- quickthrower2 4y ago
  What about pacing around in a quiet room?
  - FerociousTimes 4y ago
    Thinking aloud?
    - quickthrower2 4y ago
      Talking to yourself is the first sign of ... brilliance.
      - FerociousTimes 4y ago
        If you're so self-conscious like this, you may take voice notes or record the whole session for personal use only.
quickthrower2 4y ago
I would say: Writing is a test. It tests if you understand the subject well enough, and the "other person" well enough, to communicate it to that other person. Most likely you don't so then you need to think and/or learn more so that you can redraft it so it works. Write something technical and it reveals how little you know! --- It is a trope but it works: Write your problem to the most senior developer in an email/slack but don't press send. Then there is a probably 50% chance you will solve it, or reduce the scope of the problem to {more focuesed question} that you can ask about.
- RcouF1uZ4gsC 4y ago
  > Write your problem to the most senior developer in an email/slack but don't press send. Or conversely, write it to the most junior person. Sometimes having to explain context also helps.
- wrp 4y ago
  I agree with this. It's not infrequently that I feel I have a clear idea of something, only to try writing it out and discover that I don't. Most of us here have heard the story about Feynman, when he decided that if he couldn't explain a concept clearly enough for undergrads, it meant that he didn't really understand it himself.
- euroderf 4y ago
  Agreed! Start the solution by starting to write that email. Anticipate the recipient's questions and objections, and disarm them by answering the points raised. Repeat this process as long as is necessary. Watch the solution magically take shape right before your eyes.
- wrp 4y ago
  > Write your problem to the most senior developer in an email/slack but don't press send... Reminds me of the scene in Galaxy Quest (1999), when the Thermian engineer asks "Tech Sergeant Chen" about a technical problem and he leads the alien into realizing the answer himself.
- hbrn 4y ago
  > It tests if you understand the subject well enough, and the "other person" well enough, to communicate it to that other person Interestingly, writing code not different in that regard. Too many developers think that it's enough to understand the subject. But the hardest part is often communicating the subject to other people through code. And yeah, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_duck_debugging https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_duck_debugging is a thing.
trinsic2 4y ago
This is exactly how it is for me. I used to think, jease!, why does it does it take so long to write well. Finally I judt realized that writing is art and that it takes time to get good at it and it also takes time to formulate ideas into end producdts, in your mind and on paper.
jonnybgood 4y ago
When historian Charles Weiner looked over a pile of Richard Feynman’s notebooks, he called them a wonderful ‘record of his day-to-day work’. “No, no!”, Feynman objected strongly. “They aren’t a record of my thinking process. They are my thinking process. I actually did the work on the paper.” “Well,” Weiner said, “The work was done in your head, but the record of it is still here.” “No, it’s not a record, not really. It’s working. You have to work on paper and this is the paper. Okay?”, Feynman explained. From Smarter Than You Think by Clive Thompson
- herbertl 4y ago
  Thanks so much for sharing this, I really appreciate it! If/when I write a follow up to this piece, I'll need to include this story and read Thompson's book. That fragment you shared reminds me of what consultant/author/teacher Roger Martin wrote at Medium: > The most important advice I ever received on writing was from a fellow named Bernie Avishai, a great writer/editor and friend, to whom I was complaining about how much editing my writing took. He observed that the reason that I was complaining about editing was that I probably believed that I thought in order to write. My response was “Duh, of course, I think in order to write.” Bernie explained that instead, one writes to think. The human mind can only think so much without seeing a written manifestation of its thinking. You need to write down your thinking, however primitive, in order to be able to look at it and say: “That is not quite right.” Then you will be able to figure out how to make it better. And then by looking at the resulting improvement, you will be capable of saying: “That is still not quite right.” And so on, until it is a much more sophisticated view of your thinking. The lesson for me is that editing is a feature of the writing process, not a bug. Now, I don’t begrudge editing. I realize that it is just part of the process of helping me think. I love the process of editing! Nothing that anyone sees from me on Medium has been edited less than a dozen times. Each time, it is a slightly better expression of what is in my head. Via: https://medium.com/creators-hub/the-management-strategist-who-wrote-for-a-year-straight-d34be01c6dac https://medium.com/creators-hub/the-management-strategist-wh...
  - TaXaZ 4y ago
    wholeheartedly agree, just it's not "getting better at representing what I thought". Instead, it's a tool of thought process, which is dynamic. These to interwoven in a dynamic relation and it's hard to separate them.
jll29 4y ago
In a similar vein: Don't think to teach, teach to think. Don't think to implement, implement to think. (Writing is less formal than coding, so there can still be flaws, ambiguities and imprecisions resident in your revised writing, but once you turn things into code, it will turn out to be taken to another level of clarity and precision needed.)
- herbertl 4y ago
  I love the way you phrased this, I wrote a book entitled Creative Doing and it's really all about how doing and thinking are part of a loop! Everything is just a snapshot into the creative process and each person's larger body of work.
- MrPatan 4y ago
  >Don't think to implement, implement to think. Analysis through synthesis. It's the only way for me.
- voiper1 4y ago
  >Don't think to implement, implement to think. No matter how much I plan out the process/code, once I actually start coding I think of new edge cases, issues, and often better solutions.
- magnanimous45er 4y ago
  Can this all be summed up to "JUST DO IT", since were all saying the learning and revision comes after the work we should all just stop procrastinating and "JUST DO IT" already.
johndhi 4y ago
Hmm. I write daily, fiction and journaling, and spend a lot of time researching and thinking deeply about writing - and I have some reservations here. I agree there is almost always some value in writing. However, for many people, when writing a really long work (a novel for instance) that you want to have some cohesiveness, it can pay to sit and have a think instead of writing. Similarly, doing research (for instance going to England if you're writing in that setting) can be valuable instead of writing. Anyway.
- herbertl 4y ago
  Thanks for sharing, and I totally agree! I'd respond by defining writing in this case as merely putting words on the page. No backspacing (save to correct typos), almost as if we were writing by pen. Writing is a very separate process from editing, and the two processes need to be kept very separate; the editing is where the cohesion is developed and tightened up. Naturally, research is also a separate process. Susan Sontag said every writer is four people: 1) The nut, the obsédé 2) The moron 3) The stylist 4) The critic Similarly, professor Betty Flowers would define a writer as “madman,” “architect,” “carpenter,” “judge.” More here: https://herbertlui.net/the-four-inner-beings-of-a-writer/ https://herbertlui.net/the-four-inner-beings-of-a-writer/ In this case, the act of writing and putting thoughts together can represent the idiot/the moron/the nut at work (although upon reflecting, those words are unnecessarily mean and harsh). In other words, our chaotic energy gets a chance to play. More here: https://herbertlui.net/insights-from-the-idiot/ https://herbertlui.net/insights-from-the-idiot/
- jxy 4y ago
  The definition of the "writer's block" is to "have a think instead of writing." It may look like you need to think, but you need to write down what you are thinking. Thinking of an outline? Write down the outline. Thinking of a timeline? Write down the timeline. Thinking of the background of a character? Write it down. What do you do after you go to England? Write your experience down. Just write.
- inglor_cz 4y ago
  I am a weird mixture of a developer and an author too, and "write to think" still helps me tremendously at least in the programming part of my career. I use Notepad++ or Word instead of paper, but whenever I try to solve something more complicated, I write the ideas down first.
oliverbennett 4y ago
The article mentions different tools to think with (pen, paper, keyboards) and different methods of thinking (drawing/writing). Knowing when to pick what, or when to transition to using other tools/methods (usually CAD software or programming for me) often isn’t as obvious or as easy as I’d like.
- herbertl 4y ago
  That's a really interesting topic, thanks for sharing this! I've previously written about changing environments (https://forge.medium.com/to-do-better-work-change-your-environment-a27296aabee5?sk=aa89f7e499669ba203db2b95f5b03032 https://forge.medium.com/to-do-better-work-change-your-envir...), prompts for changing equipment would also be very interesting. For me, generally pen and paper for preliminary work (e.g., exploring the idea, journaling, taking notes), software and tools like Google Docs/Notion/Airtable for organization and fidelity (e.g., outlining, writing, editing, etc.). Another lens could be analog for chaotic creative work, digital for structured creative work.
desperadovisa 4y ago
Writing to think is what we all do here and on other social media. It’s no different, and I think too few people realize that. In fact, writing for others to read is better, as it exposes your thinking to critical evaluation. More people should write comments, tweets, posts, whatever. They’d be better off for it for these exact same reasons.
- wrp 4y ago
  Participating in discussions on HN is good practice in expressing your ideas. Of course, quality of feedback varies a lot.
- deleted 4y ago
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dmingod666 4y ago
Write to think is a little slow... Unless you can type pretty fast, in which case it's good to clear your mind... Talking to think is even better... Alone, with a Bluetooth headset, talk to yourself -- better if the app can skip silence --- you can now listen back and look back at your own thoughts from a detached 3rd person perspective. I recently experimented with Google speech to text on goolge docs to chalk out some content that I went back and refined later, so that could be a happy compromise.
- omwow 4y ago
  I find that it's exactly the slowing down that helps me think more clearly. Even talking to think slows down my thinking, but to a lesser degree, and it's not as clearly structured. Writing on the other hand really helps me to think more thoroughly. The right answer is probably that we all are different and have to figure out what works best for us.
- dqpb 4y ago
  Lol. Ok, tomorrow instead of writing software, I’ll speak the software, listen back, and re-speak any changes I want to make. Only when it’s perfect will I speech-to-text the actual code. This will definitely be faster.
  - dmingod666 4y ago
    Yea, I get your joke, but if you're writing for example an article, this is an excellent approach for a messy first draft that you can refine and clean up later..
    - dqpb 4y ago
      I write so much so quickly (code and non code), that it’s hard for me to imagine speaking being better or faster.
- freilanzer 4y ago
  That seems even slower and lacking the most important advantages of actually writing: you're articulating your thoughts via a slow medium which forces you to actually think through what you're putting down. Also writing by hand activates your motor cortex and that's beneficial when studying. If you don't have time to write, you don't have time to think thoroughly.
civilized 4y ago
Venkatesh Rao thinks Paul Graham's writing is bad? This is a guy who thinks "constructions in magical thinking" is a coherent series of words.
dudeguy3301 4y ago
what!?!? thinking thoughts to a point of clarity so that one has achieved a cohesion and clarity of meaning comes well before writing. writing allows for the recordation of thoughts, so that we may revisit older thoughts with newer thinking. writing allows 'editing thoughts' not 'thinking' in its primary order. if anything writing is second order (meta) thinking. if you havent been able to structure thoughts to some completion before you understand them, perhaps writing will help, but usually, it isnt untill that lightbulb mental moment wherein understanding and meaning are conclusive enough to establish thought.
- herbertl 4y ago
  I'm proposing that writing—and editing—gets you to the big and small lightbulb mental moments more consistently and faster! i.e., Thinking through putting ink on paper (or characters on screen) is more reliable and produces clearer results/expressions than thinking without.
- deleted 4y ago
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DoreenMichele 4y ago
For most topics, it's fine advice to be willing to look stupid -- aka stay foolish. For some topics, that's potentially dangerous. Some subjects must be handled with care.
bradbeam 4y ago
First time I heard of using writing to think was in this talk, "The craft of writing effectively"[1]. It's definitely been a motivation to try to write more. [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtIzMaLkCaM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtIzMaLkCaM
est 4y ago
Looks like Feynman study method
Folcon 4y ago
Does anyone find the same is true of conversations? Don't get me wrong, writing is a really important part of the thinking process, but equally I find it's useful to sit down and talk things over with someone else, the act of framing my thoughts to be said, let alone responding to questions or comments, are yet more lenses to peer into the mess in my head and pull out the odd nugget I consider further. Additionally each of these highlights different thoughts and ideas, so I don't find I can just substitute one for the other. That's not even touching on the value of more spirited debate =)...
- jiri 4y ago
  I agree, I even know people who want to discuss something, but my role is not to respond too much, just nod or acknowledge things from time to time and primary to listen as their thought gets more clarified by the moment they said them aloud ... :-)
- jyriand 4y ago
  Just a thought: before writing was invented, conversations were a way to think.
keyle 4y ago
As a developer, very often I'm locked into a problem (algorithms, trigonometry, "stuff you'd think you'd know by now, dumbass", etc.) The only way for me to get out of it is doodling it down: write the keywords, link them, circle them around, draw the thing, depict it in 3D, flow chart it, boxes, structures, swimlanes, whatever. It's like mansplaining it to my brain. Works 11/10 times. Always have a clean pad with a pen handy.
- naltun 4y ago
  I started writing down keywords a few months back and I honestly should have started much sooner.
  - leobg 4y ago
    What do you mean by writing down keywords? Can you walk me through an example? And how is that helping you? I’m curious to try it out.
- ArcMex 4y ago
  Same here. Writing/sketching is thinking. By the time, I’m actually typing code, I know exactly what to expect. Having that clarity is quite empowering and ascertains control.
- k3liutZu 4y ago
  > Always have a clean pad with a pen handy. This is why I love my Remarkable
  - dont__panic 4y ago
    Same with my Boox. It has the added advantage of reducing desk clutter (no more drawer full of notes!) and letting me handwrite notes, which always seems to help me remember things better.
- visarga 4y ago
  > Always have a clean pad with a pen handy. Bought a Remarkable a couple of years ago, never looked back. I've written (doodled) 1000 virtual pages since then. Its permanent place is right in front of my keyword. I also use it during Zoom calls to take notes and remember stuff. So much better than relying on my head alone.
the-mitr 4y ago
Writing is a third order exercise. > But to tell you the story I have to imagine you reading these words, or more commonly almost imagine myself telling you these words. As I do the writing I imagine the telling, imagine you, recruit in that imagined picture of you all the same social understanding I need in face-to-face telling, but without you here to constantly remind me of who you are and what you know and care about. > And yet at the same time, just as in my face-to-face telling I need to hold that picture of the Tower itself, my feelings, the heat of the day, the small stall where I bought the can of drink ... maybe conflating several visits (were the cables there on my first visit or just the scaffolding?), but whether real or imagined calling that experience into my mind as I also imagine the telling of it. The visit itself is third order - the imagination in my imagined conversation and I have to hold all three experiences in my mind at once: my hands staccato playing over the computer keys, you my reader, and Pisa in its glory. https://alandix.com/academic/papers/writing-third-order-2006/ https://alandix.com/academic/papers/writing-third-order-2006...
- andai 4y ago
  This technique of imagining a specific person before you while you do your thinking is very powerful. I will often have conversations with people in my imagination, typically people with wisdom or expertise in certain subjects. I've found that this allows me to gain insights I wouldn't be able to get "on my own". Of course, it's the same "hardware", just emulating a different "operating system". Napoleon Hill describes a similar method, he would have meetings in his imagination with a roundtable of all his heroes and role models, and consult them any time he needed to maken a difficult decision. In this way he trained his own thinking and character to be more and more like that of people he greatly respected.
is0tope 4y ago
Two item that always come with me in my day bag along with my laptop are a simple A5 notebook, and a pen. In my case any design be it software, a drawing, or project or something else needs to start with a couple of rough diagrams and notes on paper. I have tried numerous times to do this electronically and it has failed every single time. Not sure why, but there seems to be something about the fluidity of writing that allows you to get thoughts and expressions down quickly in a way that boxes and flowcharts just don't facilitate. Most of the time I view these notes for a few days while I work or write proper documentation and after that they are left behind. I have several stacks of various notebooks lying around filled with stuff like this.
- nabeards 4y ago
  Same here, though I recently got a reMarkable 2 to replace my paper and love it more than I could have imagined. It’s a magical device for me (no affiliation).
  - leobg 4y ago
    How is the Remarkable, in your experience, better for your thinking process them, say, a Moleskine notebook?
    - smu 4y ago
      Not the OP, but as an avid note taker (I prefer A4 sheets), I often have trouble to keep my notes organised (spread over office, home,…). That is the main reason I’m thinking about an electronic replacement.
      - freilanzer 4y ago
        Don't just go for the remarkable, it's mainly for designers with a need for sketches. For storing, searching, etc. of notes there are better alternatives without a subscription model, for example the Supernote.
    - selykg 4y ago
dollo_7 4y ago
I also found writing useful to stop my head from circling around problems repetitively. Writing serves me not only to think, but to actually see the structure of that thinking process (a beginning and an end, argumentation), hence seeing the whole picture and how I am are not deliberately missing something. This eventually frees me to focus in other things, feeling that I did as much as I could with the thinking at that moment. New ideas may come eventually, but for the moment that thinking "batch" is ok.
mike_hock 4y ago
Don't X to Y, Y to X.
- jffhn 4y ago
  "For the things we have to learn before we can do them, we learn by doing them." (Aristotle)
capybara_2020 4y ago
I keep hearing you need to write to think, but I just cannot. If an idea is not clear in my head I cannot write. I might be able to brain storm or do a mind map or dump words. But I cannot write. I need to think through the idea in my head. I find I can create infinitely complex worlds in my head and go down various paths, words on a board/paper/tablet just help me direct that thought process. A lot of the time I do not even need that, I just need time to think through the idea in my head. Once I am clear then writing is a breeze. Based on articles like this I have actually tried to write before the idea was clear in my head and lets just say I have never completed an article/document/anything any time I have done that. Am I doing something wrong?
- Jonathen 4y ago
- forrestthewoods 4y ago
  I think that’s the point. The process of writing helps take an idea from vague to clear and concrete. The act of writing reveals weaknesses or gaps in your idea. I often times think I ever a clear idea. But when I go to write it down its more like I have just the first two bullet points. The act of fleshing out this comment is a good example. :)
- Myrmornis 4y ago
  > If an idea is not clear in my head I cannot write. Could you explain the idea verbally to another person? If so then you can just write down that conversation! > lets just say I have never completed an article/document/anything any time I have done that. I think that the point isn’t to produce writing for distribution to an audience, so you’re not supposed to be creating anything that’s “complete”.
- mpweiher 4y ago
  > If an idea is not clear in my head I cannot write. Do you type on a computer or write with pen + paper? I find that for me at least, "writing to think" has to be with pen/paper (a really good stylus + table combination can also work). It doesn't work when typing on a computer. When typing on a computer, I must have the thoughts ready as well.
doyourbest2022 4y ago
Ive used "the most dangerous writing app" extensively to just blurt out what the idea is. It has a timer set and if you stop typing before the timer ends, it will just delete everything you wrote. You can set word limits too. Ilove this tool
jakuboboza 4y ago
Writing down your thoughts often can help you filter out junk. It really is good.
5tefan 4y ago
I don't experience this. So far writing has not refined my thinking. I need to write to have a documentation for easy access. I tend to forget a lot. I need to write to onboard others, to communicate ideas. I like struggeling for the best wording to make it clear and short.
annyeonghada 4y ago
Never experienced this magical "written thoughts". The only way I can write is if I already have thought the idea through and wroting is for documentation, editing and reference. I've found the same in studying: taking notes has always been a waste of time for me. I wish I had this superpower to make writing moee useful but even 2 years of everyday journaling hasn't given me back the payoff that I expected given my efforts.
yamrzou 4y ago
This is how I code. I usually only have a vague idea of what I want to code, and it only becomes clear when I start writing it.
justinlloyd 4y ago
.;''-. The lessons I was taught about the things of my thoughts .' | `._ is that if I write until I quit then my thinking becomes quiet. /` ; `'. I write. ,'\| `| | I write to think. | -'_ \ `'.__,J I write quite a lot. | `"-.___ ,' I write almost as much as I've thought. '-, / I write until I quit. } __.--'L I write to get the thing out of my head. ; _,- _.-"`\ ___ Which let's my thinking go on to my next thought when I step out of bed. `7-;" ' _,,--._ ,-'`__ `. |/ ,'- .7'.-"--.7 | _.-' Because there's only so much room up there. ; ,' .' .' -. \/ .' In that little cramped space inside of my hair. \ | .' / | \_)- '/ _.-'`` _,.--../ .' \_) '`_ \'` Sometimes the thing I think about has taught me a lot about thought. '`f-'``'.`\;;' ''` '-` | And sometimes the thought I have about the thing taught me nothing at all. \`.__. ;;;, ) / / /<_;;;;' `-._ _,-' But I am grateful for the lesson it bought. | '- /;;;;;, `t'` \ I don't think I could think without writing my thoughts down. `'-'`_.|,';;;, '._/| Which gives me a new thought: _.-' \ |;;;;; `-._/ Do I think to write? / `;\ |;;;, `" Or do I write to think? .' `'`\;;, / ' ;;;'| .--. ;.:`\ _.--, | `'./;' _ '_.' | \_ ` `) /
- xNeil 4y ago
  I'm not sure why, but this comment instilled a sense of joy and wonder in me. It made me so, so happy to see this - thank you!
- Wohlf 4y ago
  This is the best ASCII art I've seen in a long time, kudos to the original creator.
  - justinlloyd 4y ago
    Sure, no worries.
cool-RR 4y ago
Related, recently on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32635368 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32635368
ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
This has been my experience. One of the reasons that I write so much[0], is that it helps me to focus my mind. Articulating my process helps me to formalize it, which turns it from a "This is just how I do stuff," to a real "process." It also helps me to remember stuff. I have a memory like a sieve. However, if I write down a note, I seldom need to refer to that note again. [0] https://littlegreenviper.com/miscellany/ https://littlegreenviper.com/miscellany/
- ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
  Just a quick note. I’m moving my littlegreenviper.com account, so expect it to be messy for a day or so, as I sort out all the redirecting and SSL stuff. This is not my forte.
  - freilanzer 4y ago
    As of now it's 'access denied'.
    - ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
      Fixed now.
Biologist123 4y ago
I do wonder what the AI enabled-writing tools are going to do to our ability to think, arguably already in decline! I had a play with this copy.ai recently, was shocked by how good it is, and worried by what it will do to our ability to think. app.copy.ai
kaielvin 4y ago
I write out loud (about the mind, tech, the future) here https://kaielvin.org https://kaielvin.org
justnotworthit 4y ago
As much as I encourage people to stay out of internet comments... ("It's like bringing mentally-ill, bad faith people into your house and yelling at each other"; "They aren't your friends, and it doesn't make any friends; You really want to be the 10,001 buried comment? The internet brings every dumb thing to your door, which is not how real life is supposed to work.") ...trying to write that youtube comment in a pithy, understandable way, condense and clarifies my thoughts.
wzwy 4y ago
Sometimes I think my thoughts are just infinite particles with their Brownian motion on overdrive. What’s fascinating to me is once my mind is “full” of thoughts, it will start to leak and those thoughts start to externalise automatically. I will pace around like mad, sometimes for hours; talk to myself while others looked askance at me; go on some overly long google binge; and if those are not appropriate, I’ll probably doodle things somewhere. That leakiness is probably why I like writing, even though I am not good at it. It calms me a bit and reduces my thought velocity quite substantially.
nerdyadventurer 4y ago
For ADHDers like us, writing is a great tool indeed, since our working memory is in constant flux.
eimrine 4y ago
Good article with some great references.

553 points by herbertl 4y ago

I write to think because when I finish typing one thought often another thought naturally follows. The second thought often surprises me. Where'd that come from? It happens more often while writing vs just thinking.

biomcgary 4y ago
Sounds like GPT-3. Or, GPT-3 isn't too different from human writing before editing.
- michaelwww 4y ago
  Maybe GPT-3 could be built into a writing IDE so it would suggest the next sentence that way a programming IDE suggests the next code completion. I'd worry that that would inhibit me from having an original thought, but on the other hand it might encourage me to reject the suggestion and come up with something more original.
  - surfpel 4y ago
    Given than GPT-3 could create narratives, it would probably be too suggestive. Much more simple prediction models for writing (ie: not coding) are used in a few places. Google Docs has a pretty good one.
    - michaelwww 4y ago
      I'm familiar with sentence completion from GMail but I'm talking about thought completion. So for example in a programming IDE it's been true for awhile that it will suggest a name completion, but something new they are adding is suggesting the entire routine you are trying to write. I think CoPilot is even better at this.
      - surfpel 4y ago
        > something new they are adding is suggesting the entire routine you are trying to write But that’s only for simple cases where a person could easily predict the next few words, like business communications that stick to a cultural script, no?
        michaelwww 4y ago
        Visual Studio will write the entire function for you. It's pretty neat.
wrp 4y ago
This is a well known phenomenon in the study of the psychology of writing. Although we may start writing with an outline in mind, at certain points it feels more natural to go in a direction other than what we planned. This effect becomes more pronounced with greater expertise in writing. Study of the best writers shows that they rarely stick to a plan and are constantly rearranging as they revise a piece.

mostlysimilar 4y ago

I use writing as a means to understand my thoughts. Getting them on paper and editing and refining them helps me think more clearly. I recommend the book Thinking on Paper: https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/1610908.Thinking_on_Paper https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/1610908.Thinking_on_P...

omwow 4y ago
Writing forces me to slow down my thinking, and simply by slowing my thoughts down, they become more clear and go deeper. I wonder if simply slowing my thinking down to writing speed (without actually doing the physical act of writing) would have the same effect.
- mordae 4y ago
  Yes, slowing down helps a lot. You can slow yourself down by thinking an outline and then sticking to it, for example. It won't remove all of the tangents, but it's mostly sufficient for the smaller problems. Typical example; packing for a vacation. You can pack by systematically going through phases of all your vacation days and collecting items you are going to need. If you have decent memory, you could also buffer the items that you need multiple times and collect them at once afterwards. But it is much easier to write it all down. That way you can then fetch it a way that minimizes walked distance and be able to re-check what you bring. Sometimes it strikes you when you see it written; "swimming trunks - should I bring the diving goggles as well?". I think that writing (making a prototype, sketching...) increases surface of the problem you are in contact with. This gives you more insight and "vectors" to attack it from.Like the gigantic list of things for that vacation makes you wonder: "do I really fit it into duffel bag or should I bring out the traveling case? After all, I might be bringing back some souvenirs...".
- magnanimous45er 4y ago
  Brains work differently. Mine is very unique. If I slow mine down to write I get crippled and lose all thoughts. My brain functions by linking multiple thoughts together. I have one, a new one starts, then I make links between them. I'm super creative though and cannot do technical work.

quercusa 4y ago

I once worked for a guy who couldn't understand how anyone could possibly "write to think". He'd had a career as a high-level consultant who thought in big-picture/hand-wavy terms and never had to worry about implementation. It was not a fun time.

FerociousTimes 4y ago
Tell me about it. Even though I'm a big picture type of a guy but I LOVE writing in general and one of the driving forces behind this strong feeling of appreciation for writing is that it makes you think clearer and help too with expressing and understanding your emotions esp. when delving into touchy subjects.

whatever1 4y ago

I never got an idea from writing. Showering or sleeping work better. Writing only helps to interrogate / expand an idea.

angarg12 4y ago

The concept of writing to think more clearly might be starting to become trite, particularly if you are a hardcore techie. However I can't overstate how useful this has been for my career and for me personally. If you haven't written much give it a try. Take some idea that is very clearly formed in your head and put it in paper. I guarantee you'd be surprise how many holes are in your thinking once you try to lie it down.

_tom_ 4y ago
Same concept as rubber duck debugging.
- ethanbond 4y ago
  Kind of but writing has the added benefit of being easily inspectable after fact. Speaking out loud will identify some weak logical points, but writing will catch even more.
- pavon 4y ago
  This is a big reason why asynchronous communication works better for me. I can't begin to count the number of problems I've solved in the process of writing an email asking for help. And many more times where the question I was intended to ask changed to a completely different, and more useful question. The process of collecting the information I have, ended up pointing to holes in my thought processes and led to the solution. If I had gone straight to Slack I would have wasted other people's time, and cheated myself out of thinking through the problem myself.
  - taxcoder 4y ago
    My employees don't seem to understand why I prefer they email questions to me instead of calling. The clarity writing often brings aids the conversation. I frequently call once I have the email.
  - wenc 4y ago
    Very true. Email forces you to compose rather than emit streams of consciousness. And composing often leads to solutions even before you press Send. https://mobile.twitter.com/b0rk/status/1546875361002135554?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw https://mobile.twitter.com/b0rk/status/1546875361002135554?r...

randallsquared 4y ago

This can't literally be true for anyone, right? By the time you've written down a thought, a dozen more have come and gone, never to be followed up. Writing can perhaps add rigor to thinking, but it's not like thinking in its essentials.

rahimnathwani 4y ago
You've written many HN comments. Do you ever, after starting to write a comment, but before hitting submit, have a new thought that changes your mind a bit? Does that ever make you go back to edit what you've written, either before you submit, or shortly after?
- hluska 4y ago
  Honestly friend, this is some exceptional writing (and thus thinking). I read the parent comment and wanted to say roughly the same thing, but you absolutely nailed it. This is great work and an excellent comment.
- BLKNSLVR 4y ago
  Or get so close to the end of the point you're trying to make, and then BAM, you realise an alternate interpretation of the post you're replying to, which, upon further consideration is more likely the intended interpretation of the comment, than what your now almost-completely typed reply was addressing, rendering the reply pointless. There's so much processing the brain does in the background, that it makes the foreground seem young and foolish.
- randallsquared 4y ago
  Sure! I'll even agree (trivially, I guess) that thinking is definitely a part of that process... but that doesn't seem to contradict my earlier comment. I really just mean the "thinking" metaphor for writing is very far from my experience of what ordinary thinking is like -- so much that it seems bizarre to me to conflate them.
  - rahimnathwani 4y ago

scombridae 4y ago

Another Chinese-American came to the same conclusion seven years earlier: So what is the purpose of writing? It turns out that there is one, and that it has nothing to do with communication. It’s that writing clarifies thinking. [1] [1] https://blog.evanchen.cc/2015/03/14/writing/ https://blog.evanchen.cc/2015/03/14/writing/

zomglings 4y ago
Why does the ethnic background of the authors matter?

mayoff 4y ago

“If you think without writing down your thoughts, you only think you're thinking.” – Leslie Lamport https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/video/thinking-for-programmers-rising-above-the-code/ https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/video/thinking-for-...

arcastroe 4y ago

Some people find writing daunting. An email, an eng doc, or whatever. However, editing pre-written text is a lot easier. If you don't know where to start, start _anywhere_. Because once something is there, editing it is a breeze.

slowmovintarget 4y ago

"Writing is thinking. To write well is to think clearly. That's why it's so hard." -- David McCullough, in an interview in 2002. RIP David.

Wagthesam 4y ago

writing is one of the only ways I can think these days, along with talking to others and sounding out ideas.

quickthrower2 4y ago
What about pacing around in a quiet room?
- FerociousTimes 4y ago
  Thinking aloud?
  - quickthrower2 4y ago
    Talking to yourself is the first sign of ... brilliance.
    - FerociousTimes 4y ago
      If you're so self-conscious like this, you may take voice notes or record the whole session for personal use only.

quickthrower2 4y ago

I would say: Writing is a test. It tests if you understand the subject well enough, and the "other person" well enough, to communicate it to that other person. Most likely you don't so then you need to think and/or learn more so that you can redraft it so it works. Write something technical and it reveals how little you know! --- It is a trope but it works: Write your problem to the most senior developer in an email/slack but don't press send. Then there is a probably 50% chance you will solve it, or reduce the scope of the problem to {more focuesed question} that you can ask about.

RcouF1uZ4gsC 4y ago
> Write your problem to the most senior developer in an email/slack but don't press send. Or conversely, write it to the most junior person. Sometimes having to explain context also helps.
wrp 4y ago
I agree with this. It's not infrequently that I feel I have a clear idea of something, only to try writing it out and discover that I don't. Most of us here have heard the story about Feynman, when he decided that if he couldn't explain a concept clearly enough for undergrads, it meant that he didn't really understand it himself.
euroderf 4y ago
Agreed! Start the solution by starting to write that email. Anticipate the recipient's questions and objections, and disarm them by answering the points raised. Repeat this process as long as is necessary. Watch the solution magically take shape right before your eyes.
wrp 4y ago
> Write your problem to the most senior developer in an email/slack but don't press send... Reminds me of the scene in Galaxy Quest (1999), when the Thermian engineer asks "Tech Sergeant Chen" about a technical problem and he leads the alien into realizing the answer himself.
hbrn 4y ago
> It tests if you understand the subject well enough, and the "other person" well enough, to communicate it to that other person Interestingly, writing code not different in that regard. Too many developers think that it's enough to understand the subject. But the hardest part is often communicating the subject to other people through code. And yeah, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_duck_debugging https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_duck_debugging is a thing.

trinsic2 4y ago

This is exactly how it is for me. I used to think, jease!, why does it does it take so long to write well. Finally I judt realized that writing is art and that it takes time to get good at it and it also takes time to formulate ideas into end producdts, in your mind and on paper.

jonnybgood 4y ago

When historian Charles Weiner looked over a pile of Richard Feynman’s notebooks, he called them a wonderful ‘record of his day-to-day work’. “No, no!”, Feynman objected strongly. “They aren’t a record of my thinking process. They are my thinking process. I actually did the work on the paper.” “Well,” Weiner said, “The work was done in your head, but the record of it is still here.” “No, it’s not a record, not really. It’s working. You have to work on paper and this is the paper. Okay?”, Feynman explained. From Smarter Than You Think by Clive Thompson

herbertl 4y ago
Thanks so much for sharing this, I really appreciate it! If/when I write a follow up to this piece, I'll need to include this story and read Thompson's book. That fragment you shared reminds me of what consultant/author/teacher Roger Martin wrote at Medium: > The most important advice I ever received on writing was from a fellow named Bernie Avishai, a great writer/editor and friend, to whom I was complaining about how much editing my writing took. He observed that the reason that I was complaining about editing was that I probably believed that I thought in order to write. My response was “Duh, of course, I think in order to write.” Bernie explained that instead, one writes to think. The human mind can only think so much without seeing a written manifestation of its thinking. You need to write down your thinking, however primitive, in order to be able to look at it and say: “That is not quite right.” Then you will be able to figure out how to make it better. And then by looking at the resulting improvement, you will be capable of saying: “That is still not quite right.” And so on, until it is a much more sophisticated view of your thinking. The lesson for me is that editing is a feature of the writing process, not a bug. Now, I don’t begrudge editing. I realize that it is just part of the process of helping me think. I love the process of editing! Nothing that anyone sees from me on Medium has been edited less than a dozen times. Each time, it is a slightly better expression of what is in my head. Via: https://medium.com/creators-hub/the-management-strategist-who-wrote-for-a-year-straight-d34be01c6dac https://medium.com/creators-hub/the-management-strategist-wh...
- TaXaZ 4y ago
  wholeheartedly agree, just it's not "getting better at representing what I thought". Instead, it's a tool of thought process, which is dynamic. These to interwoven in a dynamic relation and it's hard to separate them.

jll29 4y ago

In a similar vein: Don't think to teach, teach to think. Don't think to implement, implement to think. (Writing is less formal than coding, so there can still be flaws, ambiguities and imprecisions resident in your revised writing, but once you turn things into code, it will turn out to be taken to another level of clarity and precision needed.)

herbertl 4y ago
I love the way you phrased this, I wrote a book entitled Creative Doing and it's really all about how doing and thinking are part of a loop! Everything is just a snapshot into the creative process and each person's larger body of work.
MrPatan 4y ago
>Don't think to implement, implement to think. Analysis through synthesis. It's the only way for me.
voiper1 4y ago
>Don't think to implement, implement to think. No matter how much I plan out the process/code, once I actually start coding I think of new edge cases, issues, and often better solutions.
magnanimous45er 4y ago
Can this all be summed up to "JUST DO IT", since were all saying the learning and revision comes after the work we should all just stop procrastinating and "JUST DO IT" already.

johndhi 4y ago

Hmm. I write daily, fiction and journaling, and spend a lot of time researching and thinking deeply about writing - and I have some reservations here. I agree there is almost always some value in writing. However, for many people, when writing a really long work (a novel for instance) that you want to have some cohesiveness, it can pay to sit and have a think instead of writing. Similarly, doing research (for instance going to England if you're writing in that setting) can be valuable instead of writing. Anyway.

herbertl 4y ago
Thanks for sharing, and I totally agree! I'd respond by defining writing in this case as merely putting words on the page. No backspacing (save to correct typos), almost as if we were writing by pen. Writing is a very separate process from editing, and the two processes need to be kept very separate; the editing is where the cohesion is developed and tightened up. Naturally, research is also a separate process. Susan Sontag said every writer is four people: 1) The nut, the obsédé 2) The moron 3) The stylist 4) The critic Similarly, professor Betty Flowers would define a writer as “madman,” “architect,” “carpenter,” “judge.” More here: https://herbertlui.net/the-four-inner-beings-of-a-writer/ https://herbertlui.net/the-four-inner-beings-of-a-writer/ In this case, the act of writing and putting thoughts together can represent the idiot/the moron/the nut at work (although upon reflecting, those words are unnecessarily mean and harsh). In other words, our chaotic energy gets a chance to play. More here: https://herbertlui.net/insights-from-the-idiot/ https://herbertlui.net/insights-from-the-idiot/
jxy 4y ago
The definition of the "writer's block" is to "have a think instead of writing." It may look like you need to think, but you need to write down what you are thinking. Thinking of an outline? Write down the outline. Thinking of a timeline? Write down the timeline. Thinking of the background of a character? Write it down. What do you do after you go to England? Write your experience down. Just write.
inglor_cz 4y ago
I am a weird mixture of a developer and an author too, and "write to think" still helps me tremendously at least in the programming part of my career. I use Notepad++ or Word instead of paper, but whenever I try to solve something more complicated, I write the ideas down first.

oliverbennett 4y ago

The article mentions different tools to think with (pen, paper, keyboards) and different methods of thinking (drawing/writing). Knowing when to pick what, or when to transition to using other tools/methods (usually CAD software or programming for me) often isn’t as obvious or as easy as I’d like.

herbertl 4y ago
That's a really interesting topic, thanks for sharing this! I've previously written about changing environments (https://forge.medium.com/to-do-better-work-change-your-environment-a27296aabee5?sk=aa89f7e499669ba203db2b95f5b03032 https://forge.medium.com/to-do-better-work-change-your-envir...), prompts for changing equipment would also be very interesting. For me, generally pen and paper for preliminary work (e.g., exploring the idea, journaling, taking notes), software and tools like Google Docs/Notion/Airtable for organization and fidelity (e.g., outlining, writing, editing, etc.). Another lens could be analog for chaotic creative work, digital for structured creative work.

desperadovisa 4y ago

Writing to think is what we all do here and on other social media. It’s no different, and I think too few people realize that. In fact, writing for others to read is better, as it exposes your thinking to critical evaluation. More people should write comments, tweets, posts, whatever. They’d be better off for it for these exact same reasons.

wrp 4y ago
Participating in discussions on HN is good practice in expressing your ideas. Of course, quality of feedback varies a lot.
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dmingod666 4y ago

Write to think is a little slow... Unless you can type pretty fast, in which case it's good to clear your mind... Talking to think is even better... Alone, with a Bluetooth headset, talk to yourself -- better if the app can skip silence --- you can now listen back and look back at your own thoughts from a detached 3rd person perspective. I recently experimented with Google speech to text on goolge docs to chalk out some content that I went back and refined later, so that could be a happy compromise.

omwow 4y ago
I find that it's exactly the slowing down that helps me think more clearly. Even talking to think slows down my thinking, but to a lesser degree, and it's not as clearly structured. Writing on the other hand really helps me to think more thoroughly. The right answer is probably that we all are different and have to figure out what works best for us.
dqpb 4y ago
Lol. Ok, tomorrow instead of writing software, I’ll speak the software, listen back, and re-speak any changes I want to make. Only when it’s perfect will I speech-to-text the actual code. This will definitely be faster.
- dmingod666 4y ago
  Yea, I get your joke, but if you're writing for example an article, this is an excellent approach for a messy first draft that you can refine and clean up later..
  - dqpb 4y ago
    I write so much so quickly (code and non code), that it’s hard for me to imagine speaking being better or faster.
freilanzer 4y ago
That seems even slower and lacking the most important advantages of actually writing: you're articulating your thoughts via a slow medium which forces you to actually think through what you're putting down. Also writing by hand activates your motor cortex and that's beneficial when studying. If you don't have time to write, you don't have time to think thoroughly.

civilized 4y ago

Venkatesh Rao thinks Paul Graham's writing is bad? This is a guy who thinks "constructions in magical thinking" is a coherent series of words.

dudeguy3301 4y ago

what!?!? thinking thoughts to a point of clarity so that one has achieved a cohesion and clarity of meaning comes well before writing. writing allows for the recordation of thoughts, so that we may revisit older thoughts with newer thinking. writing allows 'editing thoughts' not 'thinking' in its primary order. if anything writing is second order (meta) thinking. if you havent been able to structure thoughts to some completion before you understand them, perhaps writing will help, but usually, it isnt untill that lightbulb mental moment wherein understanding and meaning are conclusive enough to establish thought.

herbertl 4y ago
I'm proposing that writing—and editing—gets you to the big and small lightbulb mental moments more consistently and faster! i.e., Thinking through putting ink on paper (or characters on screen) is more reliable and produces clearer results/expressions than thinking without.
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DoreenMichele 4y ago

For most topics, it's fine advice to be willing to look stupid -- aka stay foolish. For some topics, that's potentially dangerous. Some subjects must be handled with care.

bradbeam 4y ago

First time I heard of using writing to think was in this talk, "The craft of writing effectively"[1]. It's definitely been a motivation to try to write more. [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtIzMaLkCaM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtIzMaLkCaM

est 4y ago

Looks like Feynman study method

Folcon 4y ago

Does anyone find the same is true of conversations? Don't get me wrong, writing is a really important part of the thinking process, but equally I find it's useful to sit down and talk things over with someone else, the act of framing my thoughts to be said, let alone responding to questions or comments, are yet more lenses to peer into the mess in my head and pull out the odd nugget I consider further. Additionally each of these highlights different thoughts and ideas, so I don't find I can just substitute one for the other. That's not even touching on the value of more spirited debate =)...

jiri 4y ago
I agree, I even know people who want to discuss something, but my role is not to respond too much, just nod or acknowledge things from time to time and primary to listen as their thought gets more clarified by the moment they said them aloud ... :-)
jyriand 4y ago
Just a thought: before writing was invented, conversations were a way to think.

keyle 4y ago

As a developer, very often I'm locked into a problem (algorithms, trigonometry, "stuff you'd think you'd know by now, dumbass", etc.) The only way for me to get out of it is doodling it down: write the keywords, link them, circle them around, draw the thing, depict it in 3D, flow chart it, boxes, structures, swimlanes, whatever. It's like mansplaining it to my brain. Works 11/10 times. Always have a clean pad with a pen handy.

naltun 4y ago
I started writing down keywords a few months back and I honestly should have started much sooner.
- leobg 4y ago
  What do you mean by writing down keywords? Can you walk me through an example? And how is that helping you? I’m curious to try it out.
ArcMex 4y ago
Same here. Writing/sketching is thinking. By the time, I’m actually typing code, I know exactly what to expect. Having that clarity is quite empowering and ascertains control.
k3liutZu 4y ago
> Always have a clean pad with a pen handy. This is why I love my Remarkable
- dont__panic 4y ago
  Same with my Boox. It has the added advantage of reducing desk clutter (no more drawer full of notes!) and letting me handwrite notes, which always seems to help me remember things better.
visarga 4y ago
> Always have a clean pad with a pen handy. Bought a Remarkable a couple of years ago, never looked back. I've written (doodled) 1000 virtual pages since then. Its permanent place is right in front of my keyword. I also use it during Zoom calls to take notes and remember stuff. So much better than relying on my head alone.

the-mitr 4y ago

Writing is a third order exercise. > But to tell you the story I have to imagine you reading these words, or more commonly almost imagine myself telling you these words. As I do the writing I imagine the telling, imagine you, recruit in that imagined picture of you all the same social understanding I need in face-to-face telling, but without you here to constantly remind me of who you are and what you know and care about. > And yet at the same time, just as in my face-to-face telling I need to hold that picture of the Tower itself, my feelings, the heat of the day, the small stall where I bought the can of drink ... maybe conflating several visits (were the cables there on my first visit or just the scaffolding?), but whether real or imagined calling that experience into my mind as I also imagine the telling of it. The visit itself is third order - the imagination in my imagined conversation and I have to hold all three experiences in my mind at once: my hands staccato playing over the computer keys, you my reader, and Pisa in its glory. https://alandix.com/academic/papers/writing-third-order-2006/ https://alandix.com/academic/papers/writing-third-order-2006...

andai 4y ago
This technique of imagining a specific person before you while you do your thinking is very powerful. I will often have conversations with people in my imagination, typically people with wisdom or expertise in certain subjects. I've found that this allows me to gain insights I wouldn't be able to get "on my own". Of course, it's the same "hardware", just emulating a different "operating system". Napoleon Hill describes a similar method, he would have meetings in his imagination with a roundtable of all his heroes and role models, and consult them any time he needed to maken a difficult decision. In this way he trained his own thinking and character to be more and more like that of people he greatly respected.

is0tope 4y ago

Two item that always come with me in my day bag along with my laptop are a simple A5 notebook, and a pen. In my case any design be it software, a drawing, or project or something else needs to start with a couple of rough diagrams and notes on paper. I have tried numerous times to do this electronically and it has failed every single time. Not sure why, but there seems to be something about the fluidity of writing that allows you to get thoughts and expressions down quickly in a way that boxes and flowcharts just don't facilitate. Most of the time I view these notes for a few days while I work or write proper documentation and after that they are left behind. I have several stacks of various notebooks lying around filled with stuff like this.

nabeards 4y ago
Same here, though I recently got a reMarkable 2 to replace my paper and love it more than I could have imagined. It’s a magical device for me (no affiliation).
- leobg 4y ago
  How is the Remarkable, in your experience, better for your thinking process them, say, a Moleskine notebook?
  - smu 4y ago
    Not the OP, but as an avid note taker (I prefer A4 sheets), I often have trouble to keep my notes organised (spread over office, home,…). That is the main reason I’m thinking about an electronic replacement.
    - freilanzer 4y ago
      Don't just go for the remarkable, it's mainly for designers with a need for sketches. For storing, searching, etc. of notes there are better alternatives without a subscription model, for example the Supernote.
  - selykg 4y ago

dollo_7 4y ago

I also found writing useful to stop my head from circling around problems repetitively. Writing serves me not only to think, but to actually see the structure of that thinking process (a beginning and an end, argumentation), hence seeing the whole picture and how I am are not deliberately missing something. This eventually frees me to focus in other things, feeling that I did as much as I could with the thinking at that moment. New ideas may come eventually, but for the moment that thinking "batch" is ok.

mike_hock 4y ago

Don't X to Y, Y to X.

jffhn 4y ago
"For the things we have to learn before we can do them, we learn by doing them." (Aristotle)

capybara_2020 4y ago

I keep hearing you need to write to think, but I just cannot. If an idea is not clear in my head I cannot write. I might be able to brain storm or do a mind map or dump words. But I cannot write. I need to think through the idea in my head. I find I can create infinitely complex worlds in my head and go down various paths, words on a board/paper/tablet just help me direct that thought process. A lot of the time I do not even need that, I just need time to think through the idea in my head. Once I am clear then writing is a breeze. Based on articles like this I have actually tried to write before the idea was clear in my head and lets just say I have never completed an article/document/anything any time I have done that. Am I doing something wrong?

Jonathen 4y ago
forrestthewoods 4y ago
I think that’s the point. The process of writing helps take an idea from vague to clear and concrete. The act of writing reveals weaknesses or gaps in your idea. I often times think I ever a clear idea. But when I go to write it down its more like I have just the first two bullet points. The act of fleshing out this comment is a good example. :)
Myrmornis 4y ago
> If an idea is not clear in my head I cannot write. Could you explain the idea verbally to another person? If so then you can just write down that conversation! > lets just say I have never completed an article/document/anything any time I have done that. I think that the point isn’t to produce writing for distribution to an audience, so you’re not supposed to be creating anything that’s “complete”.
mpweiher 4y ago
> If an idea is not clear in my head I cannot write. Do you type on a computer or write with pen + paper? I find that for me at least, "writing to think" has to be with pen/paper (a really good stylus + table combination can also work). It doesn't work when typing on a computer. When typing on a computer, I must have the thoughts ready as well.

doyourbest2022 4y ago

Ive used "the most dangerous writing app" extensively to just blurt out what the idea is. It has a timer set and if you stop typing before the timer ends, it will just delete everything you wrote. You can set word limits too. Ilove this tool

jakuboboza 4y ago

Writing down your thoughts often can help you filter out junk. It really is good.

5tefan 4y ago

I don't experience this. So far writing has not refined my thinking. I need to write to have a documentation for easy access. I tend to forget a lot. I need to write to onboard others, to communicate ideas. I like struggeling for the best wording to make it clear and short.

annyeonghada 4y ago

Never experienced this magical "written thoughts". The only way I can write is if I already have thought the idea through and wroting is for documentation, editing and reference. I've found the same in studying: taking notes has always been a waste of time for me. I wish I had this superpower to make writing moee useful but even 2 years of everyday journaling hasn't given me back the payoff that I expected given my efforts.

yamrzou 4y ago

This is how I code. I usually only have a vague idea of what I want to code, and it only becomes clear when I start writing it.

justinlloyd 4y ago

.;''-. The lessons I was taught about the things of my thoughts .' | `._ is that if I write until I quit then my thinking becomes quiet. /` ; `'. I write. ,'\| `| | I write to think. | -'_ \ `'.__,J I write quite a lot. | `"-.___ ,' I write almost as much as I've thought. '-, / I write until I quit. } __.--'L I write to get the thing out of my head. ; _,- _.-"`\ ___ Which let's my thinking go on to my next thought when I step out of bed. `7-;" ' _,,--._ ,-'`__ `. |/ ,'- .7'.-"--.7 | _.-' Because there's only so much room up there. ; ,' .' .' -. \/ .' In that little cramped space inside of my hair. \ | .' / | \_)- '/ _.-'`` _,.--../ .' \_) '`_ \'` Sometimes the thing I think about has taught me a lot about thought. '`f-'``'.`\;;' ''` '-` | And sometimes the thought I have about the thing taught me nothing at all. \`.__. ;;;, ) / / /<_;;;;' `-._ _,-' But I am grateful for the lesson it bought. | '- /;;;;;, `t'` \ I don't think I could think without writing my thoughts down. `'-'`_.|,';;;, '._/| Which gives me a new thought: _.-' \ |;;;;; `-._/ Do I think to write? / `;\ |;;;, `" Or do I write to think? .' `'`\;;, / ' ;;;'| .--. ;.:`\ _.--, | `'./;' _ '_.' | \_ ` `) /

xNeil 4y ago
I'm not sure why, but this comment instilled a sense of joy and wonder in me. It made me so, so happy to see this - thank you!
Wohlf 4y ago
This is the best ASCII art I've seen in a long time, kudos to the original creator.
- justinlloyd 4y ago
  Sure, no worries.

cool-RR 4y ago

Related, recently on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32635368 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32635368

ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago

This has been my experience. One of the reasons that I write so much[0], is that it helps me to focus my mind. Articulating my process helps me to formalize it, which turns it from a "This is just how I do stuff," to a real "process." It also helps me to remember stuff. I have a memory like a sieve. However, if I write down a note, I seldom need to refer to that note again. [0] https://littlegreenviper.com/miscellany/ https://littlegreenviper.com/miscellany/

ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
Just a quick note. I’m moving my littlegreenviper.com account, so expect it to be messy for a day or so, as I sort out all the redirecting and SSL stuff. This is not my forte.
- freilanzer 4y ago
  As of now it's 'access denied'.
  - ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
    Fixed now.

Biologist123 4y ago

I do wonder what the AI enabled-writing tools are going to do to our ability to think, arguably already in decline! I had a play with this copy.ai recently, was shocked by how good it is, and worried by what it will do to our ability to think. app.copy.ai

kaielvin 4y ago

I write out loud (about the mind, tech, the future) here https://kaielvin.org https://kaielvin.org

justnotworthit 4y ago

As much as I encourage people to stay out of internet comments... ("It's like bringing mentally-ill, bad faith people into your house and yelling at each other"; "They aren't your friends, and it doesn't make any friends; You really want to be the 10,001 buried comment? The internet brings every dumb thing to your door, which is not how real life is supposed to work.") ...trying to write that youtube comment in a pithy, understandable way, condense and clarifies my thoughts.

wzwy 4y ago

Sometimes I think my thoughts are just infinite particles with their Brownian motion on overdrive. What’s fascinating to me is once my mind is “full” of thoughts, it will start to leak and those thoughts start to externalise automatically. I will pace around like mad, sometimes for hours; talk to myself while others looked askance at me; go on some overly long google binge; and if those are not appropriate, I’ll probably doodle things somewhere. That leakiness is probably why I like writing, even though I am not good at it. It calms me a bit and reduces my thought velocity quite substantially.

nerdyadventurer 4y ago

For ADHDers like us, writing is a great tool indeed, since our working memory is in constant flux.

eimrine 4y ago

Good article with some great references.