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Miami advances plan to move homeless onto island
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- mlN90 4y agoYeah, but will it be pay pr view?
- dwighttk 4y ago50 to 100 of the ~27,000 homeless in Miami
- throw_m239339 4y agohttps://archive.ph/e65vQ https://archive.ph/e65vQ For Europeans.
- mrcartmeneses 4y agoLooks like the opposition is mostly nimbyism dressed up as concerns for people’s welfare. Can anyone local give some more context on the plan?
- andreshb 4y ago"Miami’s proposal to place up to 100 tiny homes on Virginia Key for people experiencing homelessness, which led to opposition from the county and a weekend protest, will be put on hold for now." https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/miami-e2-80-99s-plan-to-build-tiny-homes-on-biscayne-bay-island-for-homeless-put-on-hold/ar-AA10rxRg https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/miami-e2-80-99s-plan-to-bu...
- hasbot 4y agoNo access to groceries or jobs? I hope moving is voluntary.
- CatWChainsaw 4y agoI suspect that it will be voluntary in the sense that police will make it a crime to be homeless anywhere else other than this island.
- goodpoint 4y agoPolice cannot make something a crime. They don't write the law... yet. Yet being homeless is already criminalized and the police have been harassing homeless people for decades.
- sitkack 4y agoPolice can selectively enforce at will. Just over enforce where you want them to leave, under enforce where you want them to be. Been doing this for decades, how do you think ghettos are made?
- isodev 4y agoThis episode of Star Trek DS9 called “Past Tense” took place on Earth 2024. It’s kind of soul-crushing to realize that we are on a similar timeline for the moment.
- nine_zeros 4y agoWe already live in dystopia.
- hk__2 4y ago> Our European visitors are important to us. Apparently we’re so important that "this site is currently unavailable to visitors from the European Economic Area". Is there some way to read it anyway?
- desindol 4y agohttps://12ft.io/https://www.newsnationnow.com/us-news/southeast/miami-homeless-island-virginia-key/ https://12ft.io/https://www.newsnationnow.com/us-news/southe...
- unreal37 4y agoWell GDPR was the real cause of it. American companies want to track you by default. Safer just to block you than risk some weird "this cookie is on my system when I said no" lawsuit.
- Eduard 4y agoNo, GDPR is not the real cause of it. Wrong interpretations of GDPR are rather the cause of it.
- imglorp 4y agoThat, sure, but also maybe it's also the thinking that advertisers aren't targeting foreign customers anyway, so why pay to serve non-targeted users who might annoy with legal issues?
- sokoloff 4y agoThat may be true, but even if true, there’s still a risk-vs-reward tradeoff at play here. “What do I expect to benefit from serving EU-based people vs what is my cost/risk in serving them?” Some sites have determined that ratio is out of whack.
- davidmurdoch 4y agoI mean... The law is riddled with words like "reasonable", "likely", and "what's possible". No one knows the answers to these until a judge tells them, and it applies on a case by case basis. Server logs that store an IP address could be a problem. Want to estimate where you're traffic is coming from in the world? Well that may be considered data derived from PII. Want to try to do some due diligence by salted+hash user ip addresses for DAU analysis or security reasons? Probably can't. Maybe? Why? Because salted and hashed IP addresses can be reversed. The spirit of the law is great. The actual law sucks and the Internet is a much worse place for it.
- 88840-8855 4y agoIs this the beginning of the Era of slums in developed and rich countries?
- sokoloff 4y agoIt’s far too late for it to be the beginning of.
- jacknews 4y agoI'm agog, who even thinks up this kind of plan? It's quite obviously not beneficial to the homeless people to segregate them. And then, the thing that killed/delayed the proposal seems to be a NIMBY protest at 'having a bunch of homeless people on our leisure beach'. What kind of society is this?
- jesuscript 4y agoIt’s an off shoot of police containment tactics. Generally, when homeless and vagrants congregate in specific neighborhoods, the cops round them up and move them to another neighborhood or part of town where they are essentially out of sight. This is urban studies 101, and The Wire’s ‘Hamsterdam’ is depiction of the tactic. That’s roughly the plan here. Move them out of sight (site? No pun intended). As for actually how to solve the mess? Eh, just tuck the dirty laundry under the bed. Clean room in seconds. The society needs a refactor in certain parts of the codebase, but few have the courage to take on a legacy codebase.
- z3c0 4y agoIf anyone is interested in a historical example: https://web.archive.org/web/20220121014127/https://www.nytimes.com/1996/07/01/us/as-olympics-approach-homeless-are-not-feeling-at-home-in-atlanta.html https://web.archive.org/web/20220121014127/https://www.nytim...
- e_i_pi_2 4y agoI heard a podcast recently talking how the police do the same thing to the homeless population in LA, and they described it as "trying to clean your floor by sweeping the dust in a circle"
- lettergram 4y ago> It's quite obviously not beneficial to the homeless people to segregate them. Lol what? There’s a lot of different world views out there. The prominent world view throughout the world is that society forms to protect itself. Pretty basic reasoning: we band together to protect other people stealing our stuff. Homeless are in effect stealing. They are living beneath the society often selling drugs, on drugs, committing crimes, leaving excrement on the street, screaming wildly, etc. The homeless are not part of society and are not contributing members. They are living off the society and causing a net negative effect. You could potentially reverse that by getting people into shelters, etc. - how’s that working SF, LA, etc? The common world view (in Asia, parts of Africa, parts of Europe, etc and historically everywhere) is to push the homesless out of the cities. It’s safer for the society and allows the society to be more prosperous. Society can care about the homeless, empathy is good. But it’s empathetic to everyone to separate them from the society. People that can conduct themselves can join the society, otherwise your hurting everyone. That said, the island: > The program calls for the construction of 50 to 100 “tiny homes” on Virginia Key, an 863-acre barrier island. Seems like a decent option. They get a home and have the option to rejoin society after they pull themselves together. Although, it’s a barrier island… and I can’t imagine that’ll end well.
- xwdv 4y agoHomeless epidemics are really just drug addiction epidemics, a problem that we have historically been unable to solve at scale, and one of the things that irks me about people who oppose these sort of relocation programs is that they don’t put forward any realistic alternative solutions to the real problem. This isn’t an inequality or poverty issue, it’s a drug issue. Failed cities like San Francisco are being completely overrun by drug addicts living in the streets, and the truth is, it is too late to do anything about it. Shipping off homeless people to other cities is the only way to clean the streets now. There is no budget big enough and no patience strong enough anymore that can solve this problem. A generation of homeless people simply has to pass away and not be replaced. This process will take decades, and will rob many people the pleasure of enjoying a city in their prime years. I do not blame the good city of Miami for wanting to just ship off the homeless to a remote island where they can be out of sight and out of mind. The city depends heavily on tourism and has an image of copious wealth to uphold.
- aaaaaaaaaaab 4y ago>Homeless epidemics are really just drug addiction epidemics + mental health
- seanmcdirmid 4y agoCareful here. Drug epidemics and homeless epidemics often overlap, maybe in the most chronically homeless, but there are plenty of homeless who aren’t amped up on drugs who you aren’t noticing (because they aren’t amped up on drugs). So because drug problems are so visible in the homeless we can see, we can conflate the two issues. > Failed cities like San Francisco are being completely overrun by drug addicts living in the streets, and the truth is, it is too late to do anything about it. If you really believe that, you should find some way to short San Francisco real estate investment. You’ll get burned badly, since you don’t have very good information, but it will be a good lesson. Homeless people have been moving into good weather west coast cities since the late 1800s, the scale going up and down over time, but the cities keep booming and busting along.
- junofan 4y ago
- paulgb 4y ago> “In my opinion, this is not an encampment that is going to be a concentration camp,” said Commissioner Manolo Reyes. “Nobody’s forcing anybody.” If you have to preemptively defend something as “not a concentration camp” and feel the need to couch it with “in my opinion”, it should probably give you pause.
- Eddy_Viscosity2 4y agoLike when a cop pulls someone over and they first thing they say is "There's nothing in the trunk!"
- wellthatsawrap1 4y agoProbably because some "activist" on twitter labeled it as such, and instead of arguing the merits/drawbacks it's easier to just use Nazi terminology when you don't like something to generate outrage from the NPCs
- gvx 4y ago"Concentration camp" isn't Nazi terminology. From Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment): > The term concentration camp originates from the Spanish–Cuban Ten Years' War when Spanish forces detained Cuban civilians in camps in order to more easily combat guerrilla forces. Over the following decades the British during the Second Boer War and the Americans during the Philippine–American War also used concentration camps. > The term "concentration camp" or "internment camp" is used to refer to a variety of systems that greatly differ in their severity, mortality rate, and architecture; their defining characteristic is that inmates are held outside the rule of law. Extermination camps or death camps, whose primary purpose is killing, are also imprecisely referred to as "concentration camps". Now I only know about this particular plan what TFA says, but I don't think it's a reach to be concerned about this becoming an internment camp if implemented.
- User23 4y ago> “Concentration camp" isn't Nazi terminology. From Wikipedia Etymology is cool and interesting, but virtually everyone thinks “Nazi” when they hear “concentration camp” and furthermore you know that.
- NoblePublius 4y agoThis is out of date. This plan has been cancelled
- gjs278 4y ago
- abhaynayar 4y agoSeems like it would fit right into a Bojack Horseman episode.
- CatWChainsaw 4y agoHow protected is this island from sea level rise? Some of the worst case scenarios suggest that all of Florida except the most northern parts could be underwater by the end of the century. I doubt any one island, much less one that homeless are all but forced to live on, would be protected vigorously.
- sudden_dystopia 4y agoNot defending the idea itself but I just don’t see how climate change is relevant here. If the rest of Florida is also underwater, what does it matter how protected the island is? They would be in the “same boat” as other Floridians and they would be in the same position if they were homeless in Miami.
- CatWChainsaw 4y agoLong-term, same boat. Short-term, when it's just a few islands here and there literally losing ground, I don't anticipate a lot of urgency over saving Homeless People Island. I anticipate that if this plan goes through, and if the island is threatened by sea rise before Miami, there will be incidents. The people living on the island will obviously want to leave a disappearing island, but there'd be no place for them on the mainland, and confrontations result.
- mhd 4y agoSo we're getting closer to Escape from New York's enclaves than Stephenson's "burbclaves" (gated communities taken to the extreme)?
- Max-q 4y ago
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- puttycat 4y agoArchived version: https://archive.ph/e65vQ https://archive.ph/e65vQ
- cddotdotslash 4y agoTo be fair, it’s likely due to European regulations that a US newspaper has about zero interest in complying with, or even bothering to pay a lawyer to figure out.
- armada651 4y agoI'm pretty sure he means to say that if you have zero interest in complying with EU law, are your European visitors actually important to you?
- breckenedge 4y agoBlame the lawyers. One website is not representative of the entire USA, but yeah in general I prefer European hospitality.
- dual_dingo 4y agoNo, this message is as american as it gets. What they are really saying is "We are not allowed to profile and sell the data of european visitors like we do with americans because of the GDPR, so they are not relevant to us". This relentless commercialization and lack of privacy is not exactly new.
- dismantlethesun 4y agoCan there be enough European visitors to a Florida local paper for them to care about monetization? I agree with those who say that this is just a worry about having to field GDPR notices from Europeans who have no actual power over them now. But if in the future the paper is bought by a conglomerate that also has a European branch, there might be liability for past acts.
- awiesenhofer 4y agoWhat a terribly stupid idea. Reminds me of that old Mitchell&Webb skit "Kill all the poor": https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=owI7DOeO_yg https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=owI7DOeO_yg
- smallerdemon 4y agoPerhaps Frakenstein wasn't so much about science gone awry as wealth gone awry. Rich guy creates thing he thinks he wants and will make him famous, is horrified when it turns out exactly like he wanted. This is rich people hoarding wealth, making even MORE poor people, and then being horrified when poor people exists.
- m3kw9 4y agoIt only houses 100 homeless people, is there a bigger strategy here?
- JonChesterfield 4y agoOne could optimistically assume noone wants to crap in the streets and provide public toilets. Individual doors on them if assaults within the building are a hazard.
- heedspin 4y agoI used to live across the street from Golden Gate Park. I saw a homeless guy walk out of the park proceed to pee in the bushes next to our front door. In a moment of weakness I ran outside and yelled at him that he should be peeing in the GIANT PARK RIGHT THERE <gestures with hand>. I got a blank stare which is what I deserved....
- Kalanos 4y agoprecedent? "federal court ruling known as Martin v. Boise, which prevents them from prosecuting people camping on public property unless certain conditions are met including the offer of an available shelter or a legal campground."
- SauciestGNU 4y agoThe supreme court has never ruled on this issue and Florida is not in the 9th Circuit. Circuit courts are parallel to each other in the judiciary, and are not bound by each other's precedent. As a result of this, the supreme court will usually hear cases in which different circuit courts rule in conflicting ways, to set a national standard.
- NickC25 4y agoLost among this debate is that Virginia Key is some incredibly desirable real estate. By having the homeless encampment there, it allows the long-term zoning laws governing it to change, which means that in a few years, the homeless will be kicked out and the developers will move in and build a mammoth complex rivaling 10Thousand Museum, Miami World Center, Aston Martin Tower, etc... The county commissioner who pushed this, Joe Carallo, is a real estate guy first and foremost and is in the back pocket of the major developers who run the political scene in Miami. The whole point of this move is to change zoning laws. Everything else is theater disguised as people pretending to give a shit about the homeless.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- dvfjsdhgfv 4y agoReminds me of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madagascar_Plan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madagascar_Plan
- ankaAr 4y agoah, segregate people, what could go wrong?
- bastard_op 4y agoNext thing you know, San Francisco is going to get ideas about moving their homeless to Alcatraz. I hear there's a lot of older affordable living there to be utilized for homeless shelters!
- jelliclesfarm 4y agoEnglish convicts were moved to an island. Australia is doing ok, I hear. https://sydneylivingmuseums.com.au/stories/why-were-convicts-transported-australia https://sydneylivingmuseums.com.au/stories/why-were-convicts...