17 ms·

There’s no speed limit (2009)

671 points by melling 4y ago

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
betwixthewires 4y ago
I figured this out on my own as I got older. The rules are made for the bottom of the barrel, because it has to be that way. The instruction not to eat tide pods is not for the average person, but they still have to tell everyone not to do it. It's like when engineers build for the most common scenarios, and then they have to work out corner cases. But they have to be fair, so the rules designed to keep fuck ups in line affect everyone. It's a race to the bottom to deal with the lowest common denominator, and if you're more capable than that it's suffocating. And what makes someone not bottom of the barrel? There's people born with talent, higher intelligence, but the real thing that makes someone above that threshold is simply a willingness to learn. Unless you've got some extreme disadvantage, persistent willingness will take you a long way, farther than most people. What makes some better than others is in their behavior, not their innate traits, usually.
- gear54rus 4y ago
  Problem is that this willingness might also be tied to intelligence (which in turn might be nature rather than nurture). If you don't enjoy the stimulation that your brain receives when you learn and understand something new you aren't going to be doing that habitually. Bit of black pill for this thread :)
  - betwixthewires 4y ago
    I don't think I've ever met someone that doesn't enjoy learning. I've met self conscious people with low self esteem that pretend not to enjoy learning because they think they're stupid and respond to protect their ego, I've met people who don't think learning most things will be beneficial to them, I've met genuinely stupid people who just don't grasp concepts, but I've never met someone who truly doesn't enjoy learning new things.
adultSwim 4y ago
I enjoyed the read but would take the advice more seriously had he become a successful musician.
jedberg 4y ago
I always preferred summer sessions for this reason. The classes moved at twice the speed, which always felt like my preferred pace. I always did better in those classes too.
nickjj 4y ago
From the post: > Then, as Kimo suggested, I bought the course materials for other required classes and taught myself, doing the homework in my own time. Then I went to the department head and took the final exam, getting full credit for those courses. As someone who never went to university is this really how it works? You can do all of the learning on your own, pay the tuition fee for the class and take a test without stepping foot in class to get your degree? That's pretty wild if so. Literally tens of thousands of dollars for a piece of paper when you did everything yourself.
- ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
  You have to sign up to take the rest, and not all colleges do this. Berklee is a very "vocational" college. I know a few folks that went there. But I am not one to talk. I have a GED, and a couple of years of "redneck" tech school. All the rest has been OJT and following passion projects. It's worked well for me, but, boy, oh, boy, do I look up a lot of noses...
- detaro 4y ago
  Really depends on the university/program/classes.
- Cu3PO42 4y ago
  It may work like that for some degrees at some schools. It definitely wouldn't have been possible at mine. In order to be able to take the exam, I generally needed at least x% across all homework assigned for the class and to attend the exercise classes.
archi42 4y ago
Really depends on the program. A friend taught CS in the US, Germany and now UK, and (Sanierung to him) the German university has the hardest requirements of the three. One barrier are also tedious requirements like "do the exercises and attend tutorial lessons if you want to be allowed to take the exam". For a lot of people that's a good idea, but for some it's just a waste of time (tutorials/exercise sheets don't influence the final score at my Alma mater, but larger software projects sometimes did). Not to say it's impossible here, just harder. I know a few people who were faster than the average student, which means they either took the expected time for their BSc/MSc or a semester less, since the average student took a semester or two more (or didn't finish at all). But people who really broke the speed limit? One, maybe two. Though of course that's biased since I didn't know everyone in the dept. For the one I'm sure of, I vouched that he should be allowed to take the exam without the formal requirements (I was his tutor in that course). He obviously passed, and IIRC he had one of the best exams while doing twice the courses everyone else did. A real genius & also a nice person as well!
- archi42 4y ago
  s/Sanierung/according/ - one would think the multilingual keyboard would take the currently used language into consideration.
734129837261 4y ago
Back in 2001, I started work as a web-developer right out of high school at the age of 17. My high school diploma wasn't good enough to get into a software engineering university in my country (the Netherlands), so I had to wait until I was 21 to take an admission-test. So I worked for 4 years before I got to a university and followed along for a 1-day introduction. They would tell their prospective students what they would learn in the next 4 years, and what jobs they would find when they were done. At the end of the day was a Q&A with some professors. It was at that moment that I realised: 1. I know more than these professors do; 2. I'm currently a very skilled autodidact software developer; 3. I already know all of what they would teach me in four years; 4. they were working with outdated materials; they taught generics, not specifics. These professors were academics. Google didn't exist yet. They, mostly, hadn't worked in any professional environment. They weren't pragmatic. They were slow perfectionists but also several years behind on the rest of the world. And that was saying something: the bleeding-edge books that I was reading took at least 1 year from the start of writing to publication, so even I was behind on reality. Even today I sometimes wonder what software engineering students learn in 4 or more years. It shouldn't take nearly that long. If you spend 20 hours a week studying software engineering you should be ready to find work in less than a year. And from that point onward, that's where you actually learn how to do it right.
- yolovoe 4y ago
  In college, I was able to sample a lot of computer science from building a pipelined cpu in verilog, algorithms, writing a multi-threaded OS, implementing animation engine in opengl, quantum computing, machine learning (lots of theory and lots of practice), group theory to name a few. I thought my degree was a bargain at the state school I went to. Also majored in math. Both CS and math had so many interesting classes, I found myself wishing school was 6 years instead of 4. Work is hardly that cutting edge compared to what we learned in school, which woukd cover the latest stuff in the literature in some classes. Most of all, I learned that getting stuck at problems is normal in college. You have to be patient, spend a lot of time and slowly make progress. That helps me immensely in my current job, esp. debugging complicated problems.
- drdec 4y ago
Arisaka1 4y ago
I'm of the unpopular opinion that we conditioned ourselves to pedestalize speed of acquisition as the most important evidence that someone is talented. I see root comments bringing up how the person the article is talking about was anything but a beginner because he was practicing to the point of obsession at a younger age. Reading the post in isolation omits important details because it's hard to quantify how much of that knowledge he was learning was first acquisition and how much of that was synthesizing things he already know in a way that is different enough to be considered a new lesson to learn. Also, a good point to remember is that direct 1-to-1 contact with a mentor also allows for tacit knowledge to be acquired, not only instructional (for reference https://commoncog.com/the-tacit-knowledge-series/ https://commoncog.com/the-tacit-knowledge-series/). Meaning that, another argument that can be made when you read an exchange like in the article is that 1-to-1 learning transmits a better quality of tacit knowledge to the student than a catch-all instructional knowledge. And the point of the university is to communicate knowledge that is "everlasting". I see the article and the diss of the university as something required for software developers and I mean it in the nicest way possible but you're missing the point. University isn't there to make you a good tool builder (because that's what ultimately software is, it's a tool meant to be paired with hardware in order to allow the user to do what they want). We already know how to become tool builders, disregarding everything that makes software so different than making chairs, guitars and swords. Universities aren't there to make you a specialist into web, mobile, gaming development either. That's why you see self-taughts since forever like John Carmack dropping out of college once they learn as much as they want to, before they keep grooving on their merry way, ultimately banding together with others who share the same passion with them. Universities will never replace real world experience, and real world experience cannot replace universities for what they provide, because their goals are different. Universities don't have to remove the metaphorical speed limits. Even some of the experimental private bootcamps who value depth acquisition of fundamentals end up simply forming layers of classes where people getting paired with others who are working on the same concept. But that's still another form of mass apprenticeship.
8jef 4y ago
What applies to music, which I consider heavenly, do not apply to every field in life. Taking loads of music without limits may be harmless, even good, but some other things, nah! You gotta Love, really Love what you do, to speed up like that. It makes no sense otherwise.
ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
I see a lot of discussion between a couple of different "camps" on this. I would have loved to have gotten a degree at a great university. Most of the arguments for a formal education are absolutely correct. But many of the arguments against it, are, as well. But we make plans, and God laughs. Things turned out the way they did for me, and I ended up getting my undergraduate from The School of Hard Knocks, and my postgrad from The College of Getting the Shit Kicked Out of You. It's just the way things went. Long, sad, story (get your hankie). I love learning, and still do it, every day. That's one of the reasons that I love this industry (It sure ain't the people). The way I was "reared" in this field has given me some really useful, powerful, skills and habits, but I definitely feel the "holes" that are there, from not having the luxury of a complete, comprehensive education.
deleted 4y ago
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woevdbz 4y ago
This is a great outlook on learning. It brought back memories of being accepted in a highly selective school. Using this analogy, it was a fast lane. The curriculum would've taken 8 years instead of 4 if it had been designed for average student speed.
kuharich 4y ago
Past comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=970945 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=970945, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3761013 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3761013
skybrian 4y ago
I wish he had actually explained it. I can look up what a flat VII chord is, and I know what a tritone is, but what’s the “tritone in the 5-chord?” If he actually understood that explanation going in, I don’t think he was studying music theory casually before he got there? If you don’t actually explain things at an object level, it’s insight porn, not real learning.
- mtinkerhess 4y ago
  If you’re in C major, the V chord is G7, which contains a tritone between its 3 and 7, B and F. You can say, what if instead of B being the 3 of the chord and F being the 7, F is the 3 and B is the 7? Then you discover that the root of this other chord is C# (or Db). Because the function of a chord is largely dictated by the 3 and 7 in it, this means you can substitute any dominant 7 chord with another dominant 7 chord a tritone away and it will still basically function the same (this can create some extra dissonance before the cadence which is nice and it creates some nice chromatic movement in the bass).
  - skybrian 4y ago
    Thanks! What I was missing is that for "V chord" I was thinking G not G7, and G doesn't have a tritone. (He did say "with the flat seven" which sounded like another chord entirely, but that just means seventh chord.)
pastaguy1 4y ago
Never considered the speedrun route, but I also had someone (a prof. in my case) tell me something that changed the way I viewed college/the curriculum. Paraphrasing, he said, "don't get too wound up with the syllabus, treat class and deliverables as touchpoints for your own self study". I guess it may have the same net result as "read the text" or "study outside of class" for some, but that view of things really resonated with me. It felt a lot healthier to me to work in this way. I went down whatever rabbit holes interested me. It's not very efficient in terms of grades and stuff, but I had the time back then anyway, and I never really felt like I was cramming or grinding. When exams rolled around, I usually felt like I was in decent shape, just needed to do a little adjustment based on class hints or whatever.
woojoo666 4y ago
There are two types of productivity posts on HN: 1. "here's how you can get ahead of everybody else" 2. "Productivity porn is toxic" I think by now most of us understand that both ideas are true to a certain degree. The hard part is figuring out how to balance the two. The problem is, most posts of one nature fail to address the other.
bjoli 4y ago
So, as someone that has studied classical music I have this to say: No way in hell that he went through one semester in one day of music theory. It is in many ways a craftsmanship that has to be practised. He had probably acquired most of that through practising without knowing it. What it tells me is that Berkley didn't properly divide people into skill level after the entrance exams. I have studied classical music in 2 countries and have been to many different schools. Music theory and solfege has always been divided by skill. The people that scored the best at the entrance exams do the base level stuff plus extra fun stuff in one semester, whereas the people that score the worst do it in 4 to six semesters. My solfege teacher told me there is usually two people every year that wants to do the final exams without studying, and most fail. For what it is worth, it is an elitist field of study. The best ones get in. And the best of those get a job.
noodlesUK 4y ago
This is true for kids as well as adults. I started homeschooling as a child because of some health issues, and it was stunning (to my parents mostly) how much more efficient learning could be when your day wasn’t full of empty space, and your schedule was actually organized to be the best for you rather than for other people. I’ve carried that lesson throughout my life. You can do a lot more, in a lot less time, when you’re in charge of your own time.
- onos 4y ago
  I’m very interested in home schooling for this reason but am concerned about two things: both my wife and I work, and social interaction for my son with kids his age. Trying to think about solutions for both of these. Advice?
  - mightybyte 4y ago
    I was home schooled K-7 (skipped 8th grade). The flexibility was great and allowed me to start taking college level computer programming courses when I was 10 years old. I think I came out of it reasonably socially adjusted. I have two recommendations for anyone thinking about doing something similar: 1. Make sure your kids are involved in a decent amount of outside activities during the elementary school years that get them interacting with other kids. Things like team sports, music groups, etc. 2. Do NOT home school your kids through high school. I knew other kids who were and thought that they had socialization issues. You could easily argue that this point is mostly anecdotal and I couldn't really disagree, but I have a gut feeling that the high school years are particularly important when it comes to socialization.
  - nextos 4y ago
    Lots of activities can lead to more healthy socialization than school, e.g. sport clubs.
  - mod 4y ago
    I used to work at a YMCA, and I taught PE for local homeschool kids. They would come every-other Thursday or something, and we did swimming, rock climbing, badminton, and a bunch of other stuff. That's a start, but I'll say that homeschool kids are a bit off, socially. It's not always a bad thing, but it's noticeable. And, a few don't have that problem--I think it's the kids with a lot of interaction, like on sports teams etc. Honestly, a lot of the weirdness of those kids was often that they just seemed very grown up. They interacted a LOT more in 1-on-1 conversations with adults than most kids do. Nearly all of them seemed smart for their age. Scouts, karate, MTG clubs are some ideas. Honestly, gaming? In our lives I'm sure a lot of social activity will move to some virtual spaces, maybe VR etc. Anyway, just some thoughts. Good luck!
balderdash 4y ago
My grandfather did grade school through high school in a one room school house, he was able to graduate three years early, since he was able to learn/audit the older children’s work when he was done with his own.
iuvcaw 4y ago
Life's not a race
- aidenn0 4y ago
  With that attitude, I'll finish life way before you!
- TheRealDunkirk 4y ago
  I doubt this comment will get far on this forum, but it does jog my memory of my favorite professor and mentor in college (a very long story). Anyway, I was complaining to him that I was struggling with keeping up learning something in fluid mechanics, and he pointed out that it took Bernoulli 20 years to put together his general equation, but, as students, we’re expected to master it in a weekend. Anyway anyway, life isn’t a race, unless you’re trying to get ahead of someone else. To your point, plenty of people can do wonderful things in their own time and on their own pace, and that may not be as fast as someone else.
  - __t__ 4y ago
    I’m still in my 20s and I’ve fell to the idea that if you haven’t achieved everything you want early on then you just don’t want it enough or you’re not working hard enough. However, what if I achieve everything before hitting 30? What would I have to look forward then? I think some things are just meant to be hard and take a long time. You just have to learn to enjoy the process and understand that everyone has their own pace and that’s okay.
- devmunchies 4y ago
  I had a different takeaway. That you can fast-track the pointless "traffic jams" (using the race analogy). Why sit in traffic for no reason? In his example, he tested out of classes that he was already proficient in—not all classes. Doing this occasionally would allow you to have more time for things that matter.
- ZephyrBlu 4y ago
  There are often compounding benefits to moving quickly.
Taniwha 4y ago
I did most of my Uni Comp Sci degree in 2 years (only took 2 courses the last year and worked on the side, learned a lot working) - not on purpose - it was mostly by reading ahead because that stuff was more interesting (Note: in the NZ system most degrees are 3 years not 4, largely because we have entrance tests that cover much of what in the US is "general ed")
d0mine 4y ago
As many students know, you can cram a whole semester worth of material in just a few learning sessions before an exam: you can pass exam but you forget everything as fast as you've learned it. Use such methods for subjects that you don't care but must pass. If you do care about something long term, spread the lessons over time. For fundamentals, Learning to learn course is recommended https://www.coursera.org/learn/learning-how-to-learn https://www.coursera.org/learn/learning-how-to-learn
jerrygoyal 4y ago
Great and short article by Derek as always. I wish more authors would write in a concise manner.
- sowbug 4y ago
  Lately I've been enjoying Matt Rickard's blog, so much so that I subscribed. His articles are so short that it's faster to just read them than to decide whether to read them. https://matt-rickard.ghost.io/events-vs-webhooks/ https://matt-rickard.ghost.io/events-vs-webhooks/
smcf 4y ago
When I went to college, having already done full-time software work and countless hours of programming in my spare time, I went to a departmental advisor confidently requesting to test out of the introductory CS classes aimed at first-time programmers. I nearly got laughed out of the room. I pushed the department on this, but it was clear: they simply did not do this. Everyone takes intro to CS. Everyone. It sucks, but there are people out there no smarter than you yet more powerful, and sometimes they impose a speed limit. If you get the opportunity though, I'd still suggest doing what the author did. No harm in learning something twice, particularly from two different perspectives.
- _8j50 4y ago
  There is harm. Is anything more valuable to a human than time?
- bnralt 4y ago
  After learning programming and CS on my own, I thought I'd go back and pick up on areas I missed by taking some courses at a university (I already had a degree). It was a fairly highly ranked university for CS (in the top 20), but the whole thing was honestly a waste of time and money and I was shocked by how little I learned. I did test out of some classes, though they only allowed it for a handful of classes. And you needed to be able to get a higher score than students who had just finished the class, while doing so with much less material (students going through the class get told specifically what's on the test and are given materials accordingly; people trying to test out aren't given either). It was also surprising that on the Computer Science II test they had a large amount of the score based on memorizing default Java methods. Because I was doing this strictly for educational purposes, I got really interested in how much students were retaining between semesters. It seemed to be very little, and there was little that they needed to retain. Most would remember big O, but no one remembered little O, big theta, Big omega, little omega despite the time they were required to memorize it. As I mentioned, CSII was very Java focused where students had to memorize specifics of default methods and Java inheritance edge cases, but after the class was over that information was almost all forgotten. You might have a class where you do a few weeks of stack based programming in a toy language, but it's not enough to actually do anything with and, again, is wiped from the students mind as soon as they finish their finals. All this was driven home even more when I tried to discuss topics with colleagues who had CS degrees. They retained a very small amount of the things they studied in college, with the vast majority was met by "Oh yeah...I think we studied that? Isn't that the thing where [insert some vague broken memory]." The whole thing felt mostly like a waste of time in order to justify four years of teaching. Of course, someone who never studied programming or CS would get _something_ out of it, but even there it seemed to be in the most inefficient way possible.
labrador 4y ago
The last comment by Fran Snyder was good too. I never really thought of it this way, but lately I've been going fast (coding) and not letting my natural inclination to think "this is too hard so I should procrastinate and yak shave." I've been pushing through that and confronting the hard parts of the code and finding it's really never as hard as I worried it was. fran snyder (2009) Speed kills the censor. One of my favorite quotes from "An Artist's Way." There are multiple benefits to setting challenging deadlines and defining your goals for yourself.
RcouF1uZ4gsC 4y ago
Instead of treating college as “no speed limit” treat it as “no bandwidth limit”. If for example, you have been programming since you were 5, but you still are required to take an intro to CS course, instead of griping and pushing to skip it, just take advantage of the freed up brain bandwidth and maybe go take a class on history, or art or philosophy. Taking advantage of the college environment to broaden your knowledge will serve you far more than graduating one or two years early.
- Avamander 4y ago
  That is only possible if the intro course doesn't waste your time with menial work.
  - quickthrower2 4y ago
    Imagine paying someone to take your exam not because it is too hard, but because it is too easy.
    - Avamander 4y ago
      You're joking to some extent, but what I ended up doing is not too far off. I got so fed up with all the graded, nitpicky and laborious online tests, that I automated them. An entire browser extension to collect the entire question bank and then statistically figure out all the answers (because often I only had the final score).
chrchang523 4y ago
(2009)
braingenious 4y ago
I’m not really sure what I’m supposed to take away from this. The author is obviously quite musically gifted, as was his tutor? Berklee has a bunch of nonsense curriculum? Berklee has a bunch of acceptable curriculum, but if you happen to be a musical genius and have a musical genius as a tutor, you can quickly prove that you’re smarter than everybody else? Is any of this meant to be inspiring to regular folks, or is it just for people that already consider themselves to be intellectually far ahead of most others in their age group or field? … Who is this for?
- rob_c 4y ago
  > ...but if you happen to be a musical genius and have a musical genius as a tutor... There's the crux of the story which I'm sure is well intended, this is the slight shortsightedness as to place this as an inconsequential part. I'm not blaming the author or any editor. I imagine they know how important this part is but it doesn't come across this way. Without realising that "small part" for what it is (a huge deal breaker) the story comes across as either aloof or detached because it's impossible to resonate with unless you had a similar opportunity in your education at some stage. And yes I did with my mathematical ability and will likely spend my life in awe at a professional musicians musical ability or a great authors writing style, but I enjoy understanding higher order patterns.
- soheil 4y ago
  I think the part he said the pace is set for the mediocre students to be able to finish their degree made his point very clear. Then going from specific to the general. More concretely, school pace is set for below average students so if you're average or above average then you don't have to follow that same speed. Once you apply this logic to life in general you'll encounter numerous other areas where the pace is also set very low and you'll do much better if you pay no attention to it.
  - lupire 4y ago
    Most highly capable students do advanced work at university instead of just racing through and leaving. No one cares how fast you finished your degree, when you are 30. We are only reading OP article because Sivers made a website to sell CDs when the web was new, not because of his excellence as a student or as a musician. This very website exists because Paul Graham made a website ViaWeb to sell stuff on the web, not because Paul Graham was any good at making the stuff the stuff the website was selling.
whimsicalism 4y ago
> the system is designed so anyone can keep up ... this principle applies to all of life, not just school. Disagree. The incentives for school are such that it would honestly be surprising to me if the system were not designed for all to keep up. Adult, real-life, everybody trying to make money life is very different and this rule does not apply.
kpennell 4y ago
I read this article a while ago and recently re-listened to his interview on Tim Ferriss' podcast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnk4sgOFjBQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnk4sgOFjBQ He talks about how maniacal he was at practicing music at a young age. His friends gave him a hard time because all he wanted to do was practice scales over and over. The dude was exceptionally motivated from a very early age. The gist of this blog post is that the average pace is for chumps and that he was able to finish Berkelee school of music in much less time than the average person takes thanks to studying ahead of time with a mentor and reading the books and testing out. He wasn't a 'chump' and the lesson is that you shouldn't be either. I remember reading this advice 10 years ago and really taking it to heart. I didn't want to be a chump afterall and became convinced I could do everything faster than the chumps. But the problem with this is that it can make you beat yourself up and/or always feel rushed if it does take you a normal amount of time to do something. Like I've had to admit that I'm a really slow programmer. It took me forever to learn it. And I beat myself up a lot in the process. But now I've taken to listening to more Alain de botton and Oliver Burkeman for my self-help/self-development. These British authors advocate for a much gentler version of self help. In one Alain de botton interview, he mentioned how we've come to worship exceptionalism and see being average as being bad. Oliver Burkeman's 4000 weeks book plainly states that you can't do it all. This has been super refreshing for someone like me who took Sivers' stuff seriously in my early 20s and then beat myself up for merely being average at many things.
- randomsearch 4y ago
  Seeing how I agree with your thoughts in general, I’m now en route to pick up a copy of 4000 weeks. Thanks!
  - kpennell 4y ago
    hope you enjoy. It's one of the books I've highlighted the most
    - randomsearch 4y ago
      I enjoyed it. I liked the acknowledgement of the finiteness of life and the reality of hard decisions. That productivity books really are missing the point - tinkering at the edges to squeeze out 5% extra productivity does not confront the reality that you’ll still be unable to complete almost everything you really want to in life. I think what was lacking is a bit more concrete guidance. I know it’s almost the point of the book not to provide any, but perhaps more qualitative examples would help. Definitely helped me overall and changed my mindset somewhat.
aliasxneo 4y ago
This is good advice to be taken sparingly. I went through the US Navy Nuclear program in which "no speed limit" was taken for granted. I never stopped operating that way until, one day, I had a mental health breakdown (I lasted about ten years). It took two years of therapy to deprogram that mentality from my mind. So yes, it can get you far, but there is a cost to be considered if you don't keep it under control.
- bbarn 4y ago
  So glad I chose regular ET over nuke ET. My whole reason was not wanting to be on a sub, but I've heard tons of stories over the years about nuke life that have cemented that choice.
- soheil 4y ago
  I cannot at all relate to your experience specially since you're providing details sparingly. You're saying x exists without any evidence and then saying avoid x at all costs. Can you give more details about what happened to you that you needed two years of therapy? How frequent was your therapy once a week or multiple? Did you do therapy with a run of the mill therapist, one specialized in a particular area or a full on doctor, a psychiatrist? I just want to do a cost/benefit analysis. Did you consider age a factor if you worked there for 10 years, presumably you had other jobs prior?
- drekipus 4y ago
  This as well. I love the no speed limit mindset and was endlessly annoyed at uni for not being structured like that, but at the same time it does take a toll
- chefandy 4y ago
  Beyond that, it only works with technical knowledge and very specific learning styles. He learned the math behind the those progressions, but the taste, depth and creativity to explore new ideas and compelling ways to portray them involves play and self discovery. Creativity is not a technical problem to be solved.
  - 4y ago
photochemsyn 4y ago
Great article and interesting story. The combination of innate talent plus a beneficient one-on-one tutor can have remarkable results and it's really too bad this historically important form of education isn't more widely supported. A case example is Leonard Euler, one of the most significant mathematicians in human history by any measure: > "Euler’s interest in mathematics stemmed from his childhood when his father would teach him the subject. As luck would have it, Johann Bernoulli, Europe’s foremost mathematician of his time, was a friend of Leonhard’s father and the influence of this great mathematician on the young Leonhard was immense. Euler’s father wanted to prepare him for a career in theology and it was Bernoulli who persuaded his friend to let the boy study mathematics." https://www.thefamouspeople.com/profiles/leonhard-euler-biography-441.php https://www.thefamouspeople.com/profiles/leonhard-euler-biog... However, education for the masses is also important and there's just not enough expert tutors to go around for the one-on-one approach. It's also true that the combination of innate talent and motivation isn't necessarily all that common, or easy to identify. Notice how this tutor had a selection system in place? I.e. not many people showed up for the offer. That's where the 'gifted and talented' programs have tried to pick up the slack in public education, with mixed results. Unfortunately, more often than not, teachers feel threatened by such students... not that high-quality teachers capable of tutoring such students (notice the low pay) end up being recruited by our public education system all that often.
- fisherjeff 4y ago
  I agree with most everything you say, except: > Unfortunately, more often than not, teachers feel threatened by such students My wife and many (most?) of our friends are educators, and my impression is quite the opposite. By and large, they would love to provide more for these students – there simply aren’t any resources provided to do so.
  - photochemsyn 4y ago
    Yes, that might have been a little unfair. I must admit I was thinking more about 'institutions of higher learning', where some professors fear being replaced by their students. That's not a risk faced by instructors in K-12.
dang 4y ago
Related: There's no speed limit (2009) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3761013 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3761013 - March 2012 (194 comments) There's no speed limit (2009) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2766060 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2766060 - July 2011 (25 comments) There's no speed limit. (The lessons that changed my life.) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=970945 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=970945 - Dec 2009 (60 comments)
anyfoo 4y ago
University was a wonderful time that shaped me in many ways. Technically, because it gave me the time and freedom to branch out as much as I wanted, and socially because I had a fantastic time with friends I made there, at a time where I was still unencumbered by commitments. Cutting that short would have been the last thing on my mind.
- devwastaken 4y ago
  Not relevant. In modern day if you have time and freedom at a uni you're the top 1%. Today the costs are so high you have to be working and studying full-time. Sometimes at the same time. During covid schools made whatever rules they liked, even if they infringed on basic rights of your rented home/property. You don't need to spend 80K and drop out in the third year to get social experience. Everyone else outside of universities does it just fine.
  - moffkalast 4y ago
  - anyfoo 4y ago
    I went to University in Germany, where there is no tuition, and admittance is gated by pre-academic grades. The only money I had to spend[1], was for the apartment I rented out with my roommates and for feeding myself. I had a fun and flexible part-time job for that. A lot of my friends stayed with their parents. Certainly not 80k... [1] Technically that's not true. My studies had the misfortune to overlap with the brief time where there were tuition fees in Bavaria. It was around 300€ to 500€ per semester, and a massive pain in the a**. I was able to get by, and it got voted off pretty quickly.
megablast 4y ago
> By doing this in addition to completing my full course load, I graduated college in two and a half years. I got my bachelor’s degree when I was twenty. Instead of 3 years?? OK.
- drekipus 4y ago
  This is what I was wondering, but I imagine it was instead of 4 years (giving the benefit of doubt)
- toomanyrichies 4y ago
  A typical university program in the US is 4 years.
deleted 4y ago
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deathanatos 4y ago
> The pace was intense, and I loved it. Finally, someone was challenging me — keeping me in over my head This, I've found is key, but I do think there is a "speed limit". You definitely want the student¹ out of their comfort zone, and challenged. But I do think there is a depth that is too deep, where it will simply be so absurdly difficult the diminishing returns of the challenge are not worth it. > the standard pace is for chumps Yes, but … So I self-taught CS/programming when I was in high school, and asked to take the easier of the two AP tests for CS. These were not offered by my school, and the administration balked at it: how could a student pass possibly pass a test for which there was no class? My mother had to convince them to allow it! We paid for the test — failure would be on me, so who even cares? (And yes, I passed.) And I still find this: you might have no speed limit, but other people do. They'll not want to do whatever you want to do, often because it requires exerting a modicum of effort on their part. Like, they'd need to learn something, and getting someone to study something is, if they don't want to, is blood from a stone. When you can fly solo, it matters naught, but sometimes you have to depend on others. IME, more often than not, it's the latter. ¹who can handle it? I'm not sure if it applies to all students, particularly those that are really struggling. But for those hoovering up info, into the deep end.
- josephcsible 4y ago
  > But I do think there is a depth that is too deep, where it will simply be so absurdly difficult the diminishing returns of the challenge are not worth it. The point is that "too deep" is different for everyone, and you shouldn't be prohibited from going deeper just because it's too deep for someone else.
  - deathanatos 4y ago
    Oh, certainly! I meant it more in that it's part of the skill of teaching, in figuring out where that "deep but not too deep" is for the student. And that there's a limit, and you can't drown them.
gene_takavic 4y ago
One of the really awful things that happens if you end up in the private sector is that the stupid speed limits come back—and this time they’re malevolent and political, so the smarter you are, the more eyes are on you watching for “bad attitude” when you realize you’re “not allowed” to learn at your natural rate of 10 times the prescribed one, and that this is not for your benefit but because some spreadsheet eichmann needs to get more grunt work out of you.
JasonFruit 4y ago
Why get a bachelor's degree in music? Why not study with the best teachers you can afford, play with the best groups you can get into, and upgrade both when you can? The degree doesn't really get you anything you couldn't get faster and better without all the fluff that comes with a degree. (Source : got the degree.)
- wizofaus 4y ago
  I also got the degree, despite being pretty sure I'd never pursue music as an exclusive career choice (and well, 25 years later, haven't at all, but still hope to in semi-retirement!). Most of the benefits weren't so obviously related to the degree itself but rather the setting, of being among like-minded students. I still stay in touch with a number of them (which is more than I can say for students I did a comp. sci. degree with), and I'd say they'll provide useful connections if I did consider pursuing music professionally. I'm not sure exactly how much theory etc. I learned that I didn't know already or could have easily exposed myself to easily, but I certainly have no regrets doing the degree.
zanny 4y ago
I graduated in 3 years and also at 20 (so one more semester) and was way less inspirational in doing it. I took 5 AP classes in high school that got me out of 5 classes and took 4 CLEP tests the summer before my last year so it would be my last (those tests are a very easy way to get credit requirements you don't care for filled). Then I dropped analytic geometry my last semester and only did 3 classes including the CS capstone because I just wanted to code at that point.
Kostchei 4y ago
Speed kills the censor. From an artistic perspective, but also, innovation in tech, revolution of ideas ettc. Status quo spots and counter-acts slow change. Ok, sometimes, maybe when it impacts them, they try to counter it. sub-optimally, using bad sweeping legal gestures.... (just my take-away)
theonemind 4y ago
There may be no speed limit, but there's also no destination. (ref: sages since 500 BC)
- sambapa 4y ago
  "Nor is there pain, or cause of pain, Or cease in pain, or noble path To lead from pain; Not even wisdom to attain! Attainment too is emptiness."
tasty_freeze 4y ago
From what I've heard (via youtube) from graduates of Berklee, the number one benefit of going to Berklee is the network of musicians you develop, and number two is getting to play with a lot of other highly motivated young musicians. From Sievers' description, what he did was counter to both of those goals.
ZephyrBlu 4y ago
I completely agree with this. The problem is that to learn that quickly you generally need a dedicated mentor who is very skilled, and those people aren't usually readily available. I've thought about this in regards to SWE before. If I had an experienced SWE who was my dedicated mentor I'm sure I would improve extremely quickly. Unfortunately, that's just not tenable.
systemvoltage 4y ago
Whenever you’re watching YouTube videos from an influencer or popular educational channel, remember this. Most of these tutorials can just be a 3 paragraph blog post in its most condensed form. We have too much bullshit in the world. Hell, no one writes dense highly informative books like the K&R’s classic C programming language: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_C_Programming_Language https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_C_Programming_Language
khazhoux 4y ago
> He was quickly explaining the chords based on the diatonic scale — how the dissonance of the tri-tone in the 5-chord with the flat-7 is what makes it want to resolve to the 1. Within a minute, he started quizzing me. > “If the 5-chord with the flat-7 has that tri-tone, then so does another flat-7 chord. Which one?” > “Uh… the flat-2 chord?” > “Right!" What chords is he talking about (or did he mis-type)? I read "5-chord with flat-7" as G7 and "flat-2" as Dm7, but G7 and Dm7 don't share a tri-tone, only an interval. ?
- zodiac 4y ago
  The chord is D-flat dominant 7 It’s the same example as on the wiki page for “tritone substitution” - ‘For example, in the key of C major one can use D♭7 instead of G7.’
saagarjha 4y ago
I was fairly lucky to stumble into a UC program that was pretty good about not setting up speed limits for those pursuing computer science. I knew how to program going in, was very clear on my statement of intent that I did not want to be stuck in introductory classes, and was largely able to start where I wanted and then take what I wanted. Like the author, I also graduated with my degree at 20. Things seem to have mostly worked out. What I will say is that bringing up college as an example of a place with "no speed limits" is kind of odd. I happened to fall into a place where I could shape things around me to fulfill my needs. I abused a program designed for encouraging undergraduates to do research to get a rubber stamp on all the graduate classes I was interested in. Not everyone can have that. Some of those doors have closed behind me, and were already closing when I got into the program. At most colleges if you don't have the prerequisites you're just not getting into a class, period. I do think there is something to be said for there not being any speed limits on knowledge in general. College is one way to get it, and one of the last things I did before I graduated was try to design a class for students who were willing to go fast and deep. But a lot of it is materials, and people, for which college can be a very rigid structure that does limit you from moving quickly. In that case you might have to find your own path that you can move at your desired speed on.
agumonkey 4y ago
It's a global problem in society. We're all coupled and have to flow at average speed.
- moffkalast 4y ago
  It's to the determent of almost everyone, honestly. Below average speed learners struggle to keep up and speedy learners are bored to tears. Neither are able to reach their full potential. In a hundred years teaching will probably be done by personalized AI tutors or something and they'll look back at the era of some person talking beside a blackboard explaining things as some kind of barbaric idiocy.

671 points by melling 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

I figured this out on my own as I got older. The rules are made for the bottom of the barrel, because it has to be that way. The instruction not to eat tide pods is not for the average person, but they still have to tell everyone not to do it. It's like when engineers build for the most common scenarios, and then they have to work out corner cases. But they have to be fair, so the rules designed to keep fuck ups in line affect everyone. It's a race to the bottom to deal with the lowest common denominator, and if you're more capable than that it's suffocating. And what makes someone not bottom of the barrel? There's people born with talent, higher intelligence, but the real thing that makes someone above that threshold is simply a willingness to learn. Unless you've got some extreme disadvantage, persistent willingness will take you a long way, farther than most people. What makes some better than others is in their behavior, not their innate traits, usually.

gear54rus 4y ago
Problem is that this willingness might also be tied to intelligence (which in turn might be nature rather than nurture). If you don't enjoy the stimulation that your brain receives when you learn and understand something new you aren't going to be doing that habitually. Bit of black pill for this thread :)
- betwixthewires 4y ago
  I don't think I've ever met someone that doesn't enjoy learning. I've met self conscious people with low self esteem that pretend not to enjoy learning because they think they're stupid and respond to protect their ego, I've met people who don't think learning most things will be beneficial to them, I've met genuinely stupid people who just don't grasp concepts, but I've never met someone who truly doesn't enjoy learning new things.

adultSwim 4y ago

I enjoyed the read but would take the advice more seriously had he become a successful musician.

jedberg 4y ago

I always preferred summer sessions for this reason. The classes moved at twice the speed, which always felt like my preferred pace. I always did better in those classes too.

nickjj 4y ago

From the post: > Then, as Kimo suggested, I bought the course materials for other required classes and taught myself, doing the homework in my own time. Then I went to the department head and took the final exam, getting full credit for those courses. As someone who never went to university is this really how it works? You can do all of the learning on your own, pay the tuition fee for the class and take a test without stepping foot in class to get your degree? That's pretty wild if so. Literally tens of thousands of dollars for a piece of paper when you did everything yourself.

ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
You have to sign up to take the rest, and not all colleges do this. Berklee is a very "vocational" college. I know a few folks that went there. But I am not one to talk. I have a GED, and a couple of years of "redneck" tech school. All the rest has been OJT and following passion projects. It's worked well for me, but, boy, oh, boy, do I look up a lot of noses...
detaro 4y ago
Really depends on the university/program/classes.
Cu3PO42 4y ago
It may work like that for some degrees at some schools. It definitely wouldn't have been possible at mine. In order to be able to take the exam, I generally needed at least x% across all homework assigned for the class and to attend the exercise classes.

archi42 4y ago

Really depends on the program. A friend taught CS in the US, Germany and now UK, and (Sanierung to him) the German university has the hardest requirements of the three. One barrier are also tedious requirements like "do the exercises and attend tutorial lessons if you want to be allowed to take the exam". For a lot of people that's a good idea, but for some it's just a waste of time (tutorials/exercise sheets don't influence the final score at my Alma mater, but larger software projects sometimes did). Not to say it's impossible here, just harder. I know a few people who were faster than the average student, which means they either took the expected time for their BSc/MSc or a semester less, since the average student took a semester or two more (or didn't finish at all). But people who really broke the speed limit? One, maybe two. Though of course that's biased since I didn't know everyone in the dept. For the one I'm sure of, I vouched that he should be allowed to take the exam without the formal requirements (I was his tutor in that course). He obviously passed, and IIRC he had one of the best exams while doing twice the courses everyone else did. A real genius & also a nice person as well!

archi42 4y ago
s/Sanierung/according/ - one would think the multilingual keyboard would take the currently used language into consideration.

734129837261 4y ago

Back in 2001, I started work as a web-developer right out of high school at the age of 17. My high school diploma wasn't good enough to get into a software engineering university in my country (the Netherlands), so I had to wait until I was 21 to take an admission-test. So I worked for 4 years before I got to a university and followed along for a 1-day introduction. They would tell their prospective students what they would learn in the next 4 years, and what jobs they would find when they were done. At the end of the day was a Q&A with some professors. It was at that moment that I realised: 1. I know more than these professors do; 2. I'm currently a very skilled autodidact software developer; 3. I already know all of what they would teach me in four years; 4. they were working with outdated materials; they taught generics, not specifics. These professors were academics. Google didn't exist yet. They, mostly, hadn't worked in any professional environment. They weren't pragmatic. They were slow perfectionists but also several years behind on the rest of the world. And that was saying something: the bleeding-edge books that I was reading took at least 1 year from the start of writing to publication, so even I was behind on reality. Even today I sometimes wonder what software engineering students learn in 4 or more years. It shouldn't take nearly that long. If you spend 20 hours a week studying software engineering you should be ready to find work in less than a year. And from that point onward, that's where you actually learn how to do it right.

yolovoe 4y ago
In college, I was able to sample a lot of computer science from building a pipelined cpu in verilog, algorithms, writing a multi-threaded OS, implementing animation engine in opengl, quantum computing, machine learning (lots of theory and lots of practice), group theory to name a few. I thought my degree was a bargain at the state school I went to. Also majored in math. Both CS and math had so many interesting classes, I found myself wishing school was 6 years instead of 4. Work is hardly that cutting edge compared to what we learned in school, which woukd cover the latest stuff in the literature in some classes. Most of all, I learned that getting stuck at problems is normal in college. You have to be patient, spend a lot of time and slowly make progress. That helps me immensely in my current job, esp. debugging complicated problems.
drdec 4y ago

Arisaka1 4y ago

I'm of the unpopular opinion that we conditioned ourselves to pedestalize speed of acquisition as the most important evidence that someone is talented. I see root comments bringing up how the person the article is talking about was anything but a beginner because he was practicing to the point of obsession at a younger age. Reading the post in isolation omits important details because it's hard to quantify how much of that knowledge he was learning was first acquisition and how much of that was synthesizing things he already know in a way that is different enough to be considered a new lesson to learn. Also, a good point to remember is that direct 1-to-1 contact with a mentor also allows for tacit knowledge to be acquired, not only instructional (for reference https://commoncog.com/the-tacit-knowledge-series/ https://commoncog.com/the-tacit-knowledge-series/). Meaning that, another argument that can be made when you read an exchange like in the article is that 1-to-1 learning transmits a better quality of tacit knowledge to the student than a catch-all instructional knowledge. And the point of the university is to communicate knowledge that is "everlasting". I see the article and the diss of the university as something required for software developers and I mean it in the nicest way possible but you're missing the point. University isn't there to make you a good tool builder (because that's what ultimately software is, it's a tool meant to be paired with hardware in order to allow the user to do what they want). We already know how to become tool builders, disregarding everything that makes software so different than making chairs, guitars and swords. Universities aren't there to make you a specialist into web, mobile, gaming development either. That's why you see self-taughts since forever like John Carmack dropping out of college once they learn as much as they want to, before they keep grooving on their merry way, ultimately banding together with others who share the same passion with them. Universities will never replace real world experience, and real world experience cannot replace universities for what they provide, because their goals are different. Universities don't have to remove the metaphorical speed limits. Even some of the experimental private bootcamps who value depth acquisition of fundamentals end up simply forming layers of classes where people getting paired with others who are working on the same concept. But that's still another form of mass apprenticeship.

8jef 4y ago

What applies to music, which I consider heavenly, do not apply to every field in life. Taking loads of music without limits may be harmless, even good, but some other things, nah! You gotta Love, really Love what you do, to speed up like that. It makes no sense otherwise.

ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago

I see a lot of discussion between a couple of different "camps" on this. I would have loved to have gotten a degree at a great university. Most of the arguments for a formal education are absolutely correct. But many of the arguments against it, are, as well. But we make plans, and God laughs. Things turned out the way they did for me, and I ended up getting my undergraduate from The School of Hard Knocks, and my postgrad from The College of Getting the Shit Kicked Out of You. It's just the way things went. Long, sad, story (get your hankie). I love learning, and still do it, every day. That's one of the reasons that I love this industry (It sure ain't the people). The way I was "reared" in this field has given me some really useful, powerful, skills and habits, but I definitely feel the "holes" that are there, from not having the luxury of a complete, comprehensive education.

deleted 4y ago

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woevdbz 4y ago

This is a great outlook on learning. It brought back memories of being accepted in a highly selective school. Using this analogy, it was a fast lane. The curriculum would've taken 8 years instead of 4 if it had been designed for average student speed.

kuharich 4y ago

Past comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=970945 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=970945, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3761013 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3761013

skybrian 4y ago

I wish he had actually explained it. I can look up what a flat VII chord is, and I know what a tritone is, but what’s the “tritone in the 5-chord?” If he actually understood that explanation going in, I don’t think he was studying music theory casually before he got there? If you don’t actually explain things at an object level, it’s insight porn, not real learning.

mtinkerhess 4y ago
If you’re in C major, the V chord is G7, which contains a tritone between its 3 and 7, B and F. You can say, what if instead of B being the 3 of the chord and F being the 7, F is the 3 and B is the 7? Then you discover that the root of this other chord is C# (or Db). Because the function of a chord is largely dictated by the 3 and 7 in it, this means you can substitute any dominant 7 chord with another dominant 7 chord a tritone away and it will still basically function the same (this can create some extra dissonance before the cadence which is nice and it creates some nice chromatic movement in the bass).
- skybrian 4y ago
  Thanks! What I was missing is that for "V chord" I was thinking G not G7, and G doesn't have a tritone. (He did say "with the flat seven" which sounded like another chord entirely, but that just means seventh chord.)

pastaguy1 4y ago

Never considered the speedrun route, but I also had someone (a prof. in my case) tell me something that changed the way I viewed college/the curriculum. Paraphrasing, he said, "don't get too wound up with the syllabus, treat class and deliverables as touchpoints for your own self study". I guess it may have the same net result as "read the text" or "study outside of class" for some, but that view of things really resonated with me. It felt a lot healthier to me to work in this way. I went down whatever rabbit holes interested me. It's not very efficient in terms of grades and stuff, but I had the time back then anyway, and I never really felt like I was cramming or grinding. When exams rolled around, I usually felt like I was in decent shape, just needed to do a little adjustment based on class hints or whatever.

woojoo666 4y ago

There are two types of productivity posts on HN: 1. "here's how you can get ahead of everybody else" 2. "Productivity porn is toxic" I think by now most of us understand that both ideas are true to a certain degree. The hard part is figuring out how to balance the two. The problem is, most posts of one nature fail to address the other.

bjoli 4y ago

So, as someone that has studied classical music I have this to say: No way in hell that he went through one semester in one day of music theory. It is in many ways a craftsmanship that has to be practised. He had probably acquired most of that through practising without knowing it. What it tells me is that Berkley didn't properly divide people into skill level after the entrance exams. I have studied classical music in 2 countries and have been to many different schools. Music theory and solfege has always been divided by skill. The people that scored the best at the entrance exams do the base level stuff plus extra fun stuff in one semester, whereas the people that score the worst do it in 4 to six semesters. My solfege teacher told me there is usually two people every year that wants to do the final exams without studying, and most fail. For what it is worth, it is an elitist field of study. The best ones get in. And the best of those get a job.

noodlesUK 4y ago

This is true for kids as well as adults. I started homeschooling as a child because of some health issues, and it was stunning (to my parents mostly) how much more efficient learning could be when your day wasn’t full of empty space, and your schedule was actually organized to be the best for you rather than for other people. I’ve carried that lesson throughout my life. You can do a lot more, in a lot less time, when you’re in charge of your own time.

onos 4y ago
I’m very interested in home schooling for this reason but am concerned about two things: both my wife and I work, and social interaction for my son with kids his age. Trying to think about solutions for both of these. Advice?
- mightybyte 4y ago
  I was home schooled K-7 (skipped 8th grade). The flexibility was great and allowed me to start taking college level computer programming courses when I was 10 years old. I think I came out of it reasonably socially adjusted. I have two recommendations for anyone thinking about doing something similar: 1. Make sure your kids are involved in a decent amount of outside activities during the elementary school years that get them interacting with other kids. Things like team sports, music groups, etc. 2. Do NOT home school your kids through high school. I knew other kids who were and thought that they had socialization issues. You could easily argue that this point is mostly anecdotal and I couldn't really disagree, but I have a gut feeling that the high school years are particularly important when it comes to socialization.
- nextos 4y ago
  Lots of activities can lead to more healthy socialization than school, e.g. sport clubs.
- mod 4y ago
  I used to work at a YMCA, and I taught PE for local homeschool kids. They would come every-other Thursday or something, and we did swimming, rock climbing, badminton, and a bunch of other stuff. That's a start, but I'll say that homeschool kids are a bit off, socially. It's not always a bad thing, but it's noticeable. And, a few don't have that problem--I think it's the kids with a lot of interaction, like on sports teams etc. Honestly, a lot of the weirdness of those kids was often that they just seemed very grown up. They interacted a LOT more in 1-on-1 conversations with adults than most kids do. Nearly all of them seemed smart for their age. Scouts, karate, MTG clubs are some ideas. Honestly, gaming? In our lives I'm sure a lot of social activity will move to some virtual spaces, maybe VR etc. Anyway, just some thoughts. Good luck!

balderdash 4y ago

My grandfather did grade school through high school in a one room school house, he was able to graduate three years early, since he was able to learn/audit the older children’s work when he was done with his own.

iuvcaw 4y ago

Life's not a race

aidenn0 4y ago
With that attitude, I'll finish life way before you!
TheRealDunkirk 4y ago
I doubt this comment will get far on this forum, but it does jog my memory of my favorite professor and mentor in college (a very long story). Anyway, I was complaining to him that I was struggling with keeping up learning something in fluid mechanics, and he pointed out that it took Bernoulli 20 years to put together his general equation, but, as students, we’re expected to master it in a weekend. Anyway anyway, life isn’t a race, unless you’re trying to get ahead of someone else. To your point, plenty of people can do wonderful things in their own time and on their own pace, and that may not be as fast as someone else.
- __t__ 4y ago
  I’m still in my 20s and I’ve fell to the idea that if you haven’t achieved everything you want early on then you just don’t want it enough or you’re not working hard enough. However, what if I achieve everything before hitting 30? What would I have to look forward then? I think some things are just meant to be hard and take a long time. You just have to learn to enjoy the process and understand that everyone has their own pace and that’s okay.
devmunchies 4y ago
I had a different takeaway. That you can fast-track the pointless "traffic jams" (using the race analogy). Why sit in traffic for no reason? In his example, he tested out of classes that he was already proficient in—not all classes. Doing this occasionally would allow you to have more time for things that matter.
ZephyrBlu 4y ago
There are often compounding benefits to moving quickly.

Taniwha 4y ago

I did most of my Uni Comp Sci degree in 2 years (only took 2 courses the last year and worked on the side, learned a lot working) - not on purpose - it was mostly by reading ahead because that stuff was more interesting (Note: in the NZ system most degrees are 3 years not 4, largely because we have entrance tests that cover much of what in the US is "general ed")

d0mine 4y ago

As many students know, you can cram a whole semester worth of material in just a few learning sessions before an exam: you can pass exam but you forget everything as fast as you've learned it. Use such methods for subjects that you don't care but must pass. If you do care about something long term, spread the lessons over time. For fundamentals, Learning to learn course is recommended https://www.coursera.org/learn/learning-how-to-learn https://www.coursera.org/learn/learning-how-to-learn

jerrygoyal 4y ago

Great and short article by Derek as always. I wish more authors would write in a concise manner.

sowbug 4y ago
Lately I've been enjoying Matt Rickard's blog, so much so that I subscribed. His articles are so short that it's faster to just read them than to decide whether to read them. https://matt-rickard.ghost.io/events-vs-webhooks/ https://matt-rickard.ghost.io/events-vs-webhooks/

smcf 4y ago

When I went to college, having already done full-time software work and countless hours of programming in my spare time, I went to a departmental advisor confidently requesting to test out of the introductory CS classes aimed at first-time programmers. I nearly got laughed out of the room. I pushed the department on this, but it was clear: they simply did not do this. Everyone takes intro to CS. Everyone. It sucks, but there are people out there no smarter than you yet more powerful, and sometimes they impose a speed limit. If you get the opportunity though, I'd still suggest doing what the author did. No harm in learning something twice, particularly from two different perspectives.

_8j50 4y ago
There is harm. Is anything more valuable to a human than time?
bnralt 4y ago
After learning programming and CS on my own, I thought I'd go back and pick up on areas I missed by taking some courses at a university (I already had a degree). It was a fairly highly ranked university for CS (in the top 20), but the whole thing was honestly a waste of time and money and I was shocked by how little I learned. I did test out of some classes, though they only allowed it for a handful of classes. And you needed to be able to get a higher score than students who had just finished the class, while doing so with much less material (students going through the class get told specifically what's on the test and are given materials accordingly; people trying to test out aren't given either). It was also surprising that on the Computer Science II test they had a large amount of the score based on memorizing default Java methods. Because I was doing this strictly for educational purposes, I got really interested in how much students were retaining between semesters. It seemed to be very little, and there was little that they needed to retain. Most would remember big O, but no one remembered little O, big theta, Big omega, little omega despite the time they were required to memorize it. As I mentioned, CSII was very Java focused where students had to memorize specifics of default methods and Java inheritance edge cases, but after the class was over that information was almost all forgotten. You might have a class where you do a few weeks of stack based programming in a toy language, but it's not enough to actually do anything with and, again, is wiped from the students mind as soon as they finish their finals. All this was driven home even more when I tried to discuss topics with colleagues who had CS degrees. They retained a very small amount of the things they studied in college, with the vast majority was met by "Oh yeah...I think we studied that? Isn't that the thing where [insert some vague broken memory]." The whole thing felt mostly like a waste of time in order to justify four years of teaching. Of course, someone who never studied programming or CS would get _something_ out of it, but even there it seemed to be in the most inefficient way possible.

labrador 4y ago

The last comment by Fran Snyder was good too. I never really thought of it this way, but lately I've been going fast (coding) and not letting my natural inclination to think "this is too hard so I should procrastinate and yak shave." I've been pushing through that and confronting the hard parts of the code and finding it's really never as hard as I worried it was. fran snyder (2009) Speed kills the censor. One of my favorite quotes from "An Artist's Way." There are multiple benefits to setting challenging deadlines and defining your goals for yourself.

RcouF1uZ4gsC 4y ago

Instead of treating college as “no speed limit” treat it as “no bandwidth limit”. If for example, you have been programming since you were 5, but you still are required to take an intro to CS course, instead of griping and pushing to skip it, just take advantage of the freed up brain bandwidth and maybe go take a class on history, or art or philosophy. Taking advantage of the college environment to broaden your knowledge will serve you far more than graduating one or two years early.

Avamander 4y ago
That is only possible if the intro course doesn't waste your time with menial work.
- quickthrower2 4y ago
  Imagine paying someone to take your exam not because it is too hard, but because it is too easy.
  - Avamander 4y ago
    You're joking to some extent, but what I ended up doing is not too far off. I got so fed up with all the graded, nitpicky and laborious online tests, that I automated them. An entire browser extension to collect the entire question bank and then statistically figure out all the answers (because often I only had the final score).

chrchang523 4y ago

(2009)

braingenious 4y ago

I’m not really sure what I’m supposed to take away from this. The author is obviously quite musically gifted, as was his tutor? Berklee has a bunch of nonsense curriculum? Berklee has a bunch of acceptable curriculum, but if you happen to be a musical genius and have a musical genius as a tutor, you can quickly prove that you’re smarter than everybody else? Is any of this meant to be inspiring to regular folks, or is it just for people that already consider themselves to be intellectually far ahead of most others in their age group or field? … Who is this for?

rob_c 4y ago
> ...but if you happen to be a musical genius and have a musical genius as a tutor... There's the crux of the story which I'm sure is well intended, this is the slight shortsightedness as to place this as an inconsequential part. I'm not blaming the author or any editor. I imagine they know how important this part is but it doesn't come across this way. Without realising that "small part" for what it is (a huge deal breaker) the story comes across as either aloof or detached because it's impossible to resonate with unless you had a similar opportunity in your education at some stage. And yes I did with my mathematical ability and will likely spend my life in awe at a professional musicians musical ability or a great authors writing style, but I enjoy understanding higher order patterns.
soheil 4y ago
I think the part he said the pace is set for the mediocre students to be able to finish their degree made his point very clear. Then going from specific to the general. More concretely, school pace is set for below average students so if you're average or above average then you don't have to follow that same speed. Once you apply this logic to life in general you'll encounter numerous other areas where the pace is also set very low and you'll do much better if you pay no attention to it.
- lupire 4y ago
  Most highly capable students do advanced work at university instead of just racing through and leaving. No one cares how fast you finished your degree, when you are 30. We are only reading OP article because Sivers made a website to sell CDs when the web was new, not because of his excellence as a student or as a musician. This very website exists because Paul Graham made a website ViaWeb to sell stuff on the web, not because Paul Graham was any good at making the stuff the stuff the website was selling.

whimsicalism 4y ago

> the system is designed so anyone can keep up ... this principle applies to all of life, not just school. Disagree. The incentives for school are such that it would honestly be surprising to me if the system were not designed for all to keep up. Adult, real-life, everybody trying to make money life is very different and this rule does not apply.

kpennell 4y ago

I read this article a while ago and recently re-listened to his interview on Tim Ferriss' podcast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnk4sgOFjBQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnk4sgOFjBQ He talks about how maniacal he was at practicing music at a young age. His friends gave him a hard time because all he wanted to do was practice scales over and over. The dude was exceptionally motivated from a very early age. The gist of this blog post is that the average pace is for chumps and that he was able to finish Berkelee school of music in much less time than the average person takes thanks to studying ahead of time with a mentor and reading the books and testing out. He wasn't a 'chump' and the lesson is that you shouldn't be either. I remember reading this advice 10 years ago and really taking it to heart. I didn't want to be a chump afterall and became convinced I could do everything faster than the chumps. But the problem with this is that it can make you beat yourself up and/or always feel rushed if it does take you a normal amount of time to do something. Like I've had to admit that I'm a really slow programmer. It took me forever to learn it. And I beat myself up a lot in the process. But now I've taken to listening to more Alain de botton and Oliver Burkeman for my self-help/self-development. These British authors advocate for a much gentler version of self help. In one Alain de botton interview, he mentioned how we've come to worship exceptionalism and see being average as being bad. Oliver Burkeman's 4000 weeks book plainly states that you can't do it all. This has been super refreshing for someone like me who took Sivers' stuff seriously in my early 20s and then beat myself up for merely being average at many things.

randomsearch 4y ago
Seeing how I agree with your thoughts in general, I’m now en route to pick up a copy of 4000 weeks. Thanks!
- kpennell 4y ago
  hope you enjoy. It's one of the books I've highlighted the most
  - randomsearch 4y ago
    I enjoyed it. I liked the acknowledgement of the finiteness of life and the reality of hard decisions. That productivity books really are missing the point - tinkering at the edges to squeeze out 5% extra productivity does not confront the reality that you’ll still be unable to complete almost everything you really want to in life. I think what was lacking is a bit more concrete guidance. I know it’s almost the point of the book not to provide any, but perhaps more qualitative examples would help. Definitely helped me overall and changed my mindset somewhat.

aliasxneo 4y ago

This is good advice to be taken sparingly. I went through the US Navy Nuclear program in which "no speed limit" was taken for granted. I never stopped operating that way until, one day, I had a mental health breakdown (I lasted about ten years). It took two years of therapy to deprogram that mentality from my mind. So yes, it can get you far, but there is a cost to be considered if you don't keep it under control.

bbarn 4y ago
So glad I chose regular ET over nuke ET. My whole reason was not wanting to be on a sub, but I've heard tons of stories over the years about nuke life that have cemented that choice.
soheil 4y ago
I cannot at all relate to your experience specially since you're providing details sparingly. You're saying x exists without any evidence and then saying avoid x at all costs. Can you give more details about what happened to you that you needed two years of therapy? How frequent was your therapy once a week or multiple? Did you do therapy with a run of the mill therapist, one specialized in a particular area or a full on doctor, a psychiatrist? I just want to do a cost/benefit analysis. Did you consider age a factor if you worked there for 10 years, presumably you had other jobs prior?
drekipus 4y ago
This as well. I love the no speed limit mindset and was endlessly annoyed at uni for not being structured like that, but at the same time it does take a toll
chefandy 4y ago
Beyond that, it only works with technical knowledge and very specific learning styles. He learned the math behind the those progressions, but the taste, depth and creativity to explore new ideas and compelling ways to portray them involves play and self discovery. Creativity is not a technical problem to be solved.
- 4y ago

photochemsyn 4y ago

Great article and interesting story. The combination of innate talent plus a beneficient one-on-one tutor can have remarkable results and it's really too bad this historically important form of education isn't more widely supported. A case example is Leonard Euler, one of the most significant mathematicians in human history by any measure: > "Euler’s interest in mathematics stemmed from his childhood when his father would teach him the subject. As luck would have it, Johann Bernoulli, Europe’s foremost mathematician of his time, was a friend of Leonhard’s father and the influence of this great mathematician on the young Leonhard was immense. Euler’s father wanted to prepare him for a career in theology and it was Bernoulli who persuaded his friend to let the boy study mathematics." https://www.thefamouspeople.com/profiles/leonhard-euler-biography-441.php https://www.thefamouspeople.com/profiles/leonhard-euler-biog... However, education for the masses is also important and there's just not enough expert tutors to go around for the one-on-one approach. It's also true that the combination of innate talent and motivation isn't necessarily all that common, or easy to identify. Notice how this tutor had a selection system in place? I.e. not many people showed up for the offer. That's where the 'gifted and talented' programs have tried to pick up the slack in public education, with mixed results. Unfortunately, more often than not, teachers feel threatened by such students... not that high-quality teachers capable of tutoring such students (notice the low pay) end up being recruited by our public education system all that often.

fisherjeff 4y ago
I agree with most everything you say, except: > Unfortunately, more often than not, teachers feel threatened by such students My wife and many (most?) of our friends are educators, and my impression is quite the opposite. By and large, they would love to provide more for these students – there simply aren’t any resources provided to do so.
- photochemsyn 4y ago
  Yes, that might have been a little unfair. I must admit I was thinking more about 'institutions of higher learning', where some professors fear being replaced by their students. That's not a risk faced by instructors in K-12.

dang 4y ago

Related: There's no speed limit (2009) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3761013 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3761013 - March 2012 (194 comments) There's no speed limit (2009) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2766060 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2766060 - July 2011 (25 comments) There's no speed limit. (The lessons that changed my life.) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=970945 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=970945 - Dec 2009 (60 comments)

anyfoo 4y ago

University was a wonderful time that shaped me in many ways. Technically, because it gave me the time and freedom to branch out as much as I wanted, and socially because I had a fantastic time with friends I made there, at a time where I was still unencumbered by commitments. Cutting that short would have been the last thing on my mind.

devwastaken 4y ago
Not relevant. In modern day if you have time and freedom at a uni you're the top 1%. Today the costs are so high you have to be working and studying full-time. Sometimes at the same time. During covid schools made whatever rules they liked, even if they infringed on basic rights of your rented home/property. You don't need to spend 80K and drop out in the third year to get social experience. Everyone else outside of universities does it just fine.
- moffkalast 4y ago
- anyfoo 4y ago
  I went to University in Germany, where there is no tuition, and admittance is gated by pre-academic grades. The only money I had to spend[1], was for the apartment I rented out with my roommates and for feeding myself. I had a fun and flexible part-time job for that. A lot of my friends stayed with their parents. Certainly not 80k... [1] Technically that's not true. My studies had the misfortune to overlap with the brief time where there were tuition fees in Bavaria. It was around 300€ to 500€ per semester, and a massive pain in the a**. I was able to get by, and it got voted off pretty quickly.

megablast 4y ago

> By doing this in addition to completing my full course load, I graduated college in two and a half years. I got my bachelor’s degree when I was twenty. Instead of 3 years?? OK.

drekipus 4y ago
This is what I was wondering, but I imagine it was instead of 4 years (giving the benefit of doubt)
toomanyrichies 4y ago
A typical university program in the US is 4 years.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

deathanatos 4y ago

> The pace was intense, and I loved it. Finally, someone was challenging me — keeping me in over my head This, I've found is key, but I do think there is a "speed limit". You definitely want the student¹ out of their comfort zone, and challenged. But I do think there is a depth that is too deep, where it will simply be so absurdly difficult the diminishing returns of the challenge are not worth it. > the standard pace is for chumps Yes, but … So I self-taught CS/programming when I was in high school, and asked to take the easier of the two AP tests for CS. These were not offered by my school, and the administration balked at it: how could a student pass possibly pass a test for which there was no class? My mother had to convince them to allow it! We paid for the test — failure would be on me, so who even cares? (And yes, I passed.) And I still find this: you might have no speed limit, but other people do. They'll not want to do whatever you want to do, often because it requires exerting a modicum of effort on their part. Like, they'd need to learn something, and getting someone to study something is, if they don't want to, is blood from a stone. When you can fly solo, it matters naught, but sometimes you have to depend on others. IME, more often than not, it's the latter. ¹who can handle it? I'm not sure if it applies to all students, particularly those that are really struggling. But for those hoovering up info, into the deep end.

josephcsible 4y ago
> But I do think there is a depth that is too deep, where it will simply be so absurdly difficult the diminishing returns of the challenge are not worth it. The point is that "too deep" is different for everyone, and you shouldn't be prohibited from going deeper just because it's too deep for someone else.
- deathanatos 4y ago
  Oh, certainly! I meant it more in that it's part of the skill of teaching, in figuring out where that "deep but not too deep" is for the student. And that there's a limit, and you can't drown them.

gene_takavic 4y ago

One of the really awful things that happens if you end up in the private sector is that the stupid speed limits come back—and this time they’re malevolent and political, so the smarter you are, the more eyes are on you watching for “bad attitude” when you realize you’re “not allowed” to learn at your natural rate of 10 times the prescribed one, and that this is not for your benefit but because some spreadsheet eichmann needs to get more grunt work out of you.

JasonFruit 4y ago

Why get a bachelor's degree in music? Why not study with the best teachers you can afford, play with the best groups you can get into, and upgrade both when you can? The degree doesn't really get you anything you couldn't get faster and better without all the fluff that comes with a degree. (Source : got the degree.)

wizofaus 4y ago
I also got the degree, despite being pretty sure I'd never pursue music as an exclusive career choice (and well, 25 years later, haven't at all, but still hope to in semi-retirement!). Most of the benefits weren't so obviously related to the degree itself but rather the setting, of being among like-minded students. I still stay in touch with a number of them (which is more than I can say for students I did a comp. sci. degree with), and I'd say they'll provide useful connections if I did consider pursuing music professionally. I'm not sure exactly how much theory etc. I learned that I didn't know already or could have easily exposed myself to easily, but I certainly have no regrets doing the degree.

zanny 4y ago

I graduated in 3 years and also at 20 (so one more semester) and was way less inspirational in doing it. I took 5 AP classes in high school that got me out of 5 classes and took 4 CLEP tests the summer before my last year so it would be my last (those tests are a very easy way to get credit requirements you don't care for filled). Then I dropped analytic geometry my last semester and only did 3 classes including the CS capstone because I just wanted to code at that point.

Kostchei 4y ago

Speed kills the censor. From an artistic perspective, but also, innovation in tech, revolution of ideas ettc. Status quo spots and counter-acts slow change. Ok, sometimes, maybe when it impacts them, they try to counter it. sub-optimally, using bad sweeping legal gestures.... (just my take-away)

theonemind 4y ago

There may be no speed limit, but there's also no destination. (ref: sages since 500 BC)

sambapa 4y ago
"Nor is there pain, or cause of pain, Or cease in pain, or noble path To lead from pain; Not even wisdom to attain! Attainment too is emptiness."

tasty_freeze 4y ago

From what I've heard (via youtube) from graduates of Berklee, the number one benefit of going to Berklee is the network of musicians you develop, and number two is getting to play with a lot of other highly motivated young musicians. From Sievers' description, what he did was counter to both of those goals.

ZephyrBlu 4y ago

I completely agree with this. The problem is that to learn that quickly you generally need a dedicated mentor who is very skilled, and those people aren't usually readily available. I've thought about this in regards to SWE before. If I had an experienced SWE who was my dedicated mentor I'm sure I would improve extremely quickly. Unfortunately, that's just not tenable.

systemvoltage 4y ago

Whenever you’re watching YouTube videos from an influencer or popular educational channel, remember this. Most of these tutorials can just be a 3 paragraph blog post in its most condensed form. We have too much bullshit in the world. Hell, no one writes dense highly informative books like the K&R’s classic C programming language: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_C_Programming_Language https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_C_Programming_Language

khazhoux 4y ago

> He was quickly explaining the chords based on the diatonic scale — how the dissonance of the tri-tone in the 5-chord with the flat-7 is what makes it want to resolve to the 1. Within a minute, he started quizzing me. > “If the 5-chord with the flat-7 has that tri-tone, then so does another flat-7 chord. Which one?” > “Uh… the flat-2 chord?” > “Right!" What chords is he talking about (or did he mis-type)? I read "5-chord with flat-7" as G7 and "flat-2" as Dm7, but G7 and Dm7 don't share a tri-tone, only an interval. ?

zodiac 4y ago
The chord is D-flat dominant 7 It’s the same example as on the wiki page for “tritone substitution” - ‘For example, in the key of C major one can use D♭7 instead of G7.’

saagarjha 4y ago

I was fairly lucky to stumble into a UC program that was pretty good about not setting up speed limits for those pursuing computer science. I knew how to program going in, was very clear on my statement of intent that I did not want to be stuck in introductory classes, and was largely able to start where I wanted and then take what I wanted. Like the author, I also graduated with my degree at 20. Things seem to have mostly worked out. What I will say is that bringing up college as an example of a place with "no speed limits" is kind of odd. I happened to fall into a place where I could shape things around me to fulfill my needs. I abused a program designed for encouraging undergraduates to do research to get a rubber stamp on all the graduate classes I was interested in. Not everyone can have that. Some of those doors have closed behind me, and were already closing when I got into the program. At most colleges if you don't have the prerequisites you're just not getting into a class, period. I do think there is something to be said for there not being any speed limits on knowledge in general. College is one way to get it, and one of the last things I did before I graduated was try to design a class for students who were willing to go fast and deep. But a lot of it is materials, and people, for which college can be a very rigid structure that does limit you from moving quickly. In that case you might have to find your own path that you can move at your desired speed on.

agumonkey 4y ago

It's a global problem in society. We're all coupled and have to flow at average speed.

moffkalast 4y ago
It's to the determent of almost everyone, honestly. Below average speed learners struggle to keep up and speedy learners are bored to tears. Neither are able to reach their full potential. In a hundred years teaching will probably be done by personalized AI tutors or something and they'll look back at the era of some person talking beside a blackboard explaining things as some kind of barbaric idiocy.