10 ms·

I strongly believe there is probable cause to be found that Trump committed crimes, but I can't help but ask if these hunts against former presidents are positi

I strongly believe there is probable cause to be found that Trump committed crimes, but I can't help but ask if these hunts against former presidents are positive for the future peace and prosperity of America.

anigbrowl 4y ago
South Korea seems to be doing OK despite being ahead of the US in this particular domain.
- yongjik 4y ago
  Yep, South Korea sent four ex-presidents to prison (three were pardoned, one is still in prison). It's not a perfect solution (obviously we'd prefer if we had presidents who didn't commit crimes), but I think it's a net positive. Surprisingly, when you throw an ex-president in jail, the society doesn't break down. The stock market barely even notices.
joezydeco 4y ago
All we can hope is that we keep enough people with integrity and apolitical viewpoints as a buffer between the political parties and the White House. This raid was certainly signed off by Christopher Wray, the director of the FBI. Wray was appointed by Trump. Feel free to call it a witch hunt, but you don't go into a warrant like this unless you are fairly certain of the outcome.
- notch656a 4y ago
  I just hope this doesn't turn into a trolley problem where one side of the tracks is justice dying and the other side is mass violence and instability.
- codefreeordie 4y ago
  - hvl2 4y ago
    Examples of similar raids?
    - codefreeordie 4y ago
      https://thehill.com/opinion/judiciary/3594107-the-mar-a-lago-raid-a-case-for-criminal-prosecution-or-another-insurance-policy-against-trump/amp/ https://thehill.com/opinion/judiciary/3594107-the-mar-a-lago... This article shows a barrage of Democrats not raided on similar warrants and a whole slew of Republicans raided on similarly-flimsy ground. It's simple: the FBI is the enforcement arm of the democratic party, and it operates transparently as such. It is in no way a legitimate law enforcement agency.l, and performs no legitimate function.
      - joezydeco 4y ago
        I think it's noble that you wish for equality. We all do. Let's hope you press for the same in all other aspects of your life and your vote at the ballot box. Vote for the candidates that work to represent everyone and not just wealthy white males.
    - codefreeordie 4y ago
      I tried to give examples, but apparently giving examples just gets your posts deleted.
  - joezydeco 4y ago
    "and we have seen time and time again that they're fishing expeditions which achieve nothing" You sure about that? There are at least eight Trump administration individuals convicted of crimes because of those "fishing expeditions", with many more under indictment. And there are others that are still in contempt of congressional subpoenas. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-bannon-associates-factbox/factbox-here-are-eight-trump-associates-arrested-or-convicted-of-crimes-idUSKBN25G1YU https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-bannon-associat... And I think it's been made really clear that you don't get permits for "fishing expeditions" easily. It needs approval on many levels, including judges and magistrates installed by both parties. Funny thing, these "fishing expeditions" have been deployed against Democratic officials but come out with way less indictments and convictions. How many hours of testimony did Clinton sit down for over Bengazhi? 11? Did that result in anything? Why not? Oh yeah, and she showed up when subpoenaed. The party of "law and order" needs to put up or shut up. (PS: If this search of Mar-A-Lago was an abuse of power, Trump is more than free to release a copy of the warrant which shows exactly what the FBI was searching for. Let's see if that happens.)
kmos17 4y ago
Making sure no one is above the law is a cornerstone of our legal system, so I would argue it is in fact essential. Of course this is assuming there must be really strong probable cause in this case.
- notch656a 4y ago
  If "being above the law" is discretionary prosecution and investigation letting some people off the hook, then it actually is for good or ill a cornerstone of our legal system. FBI has broad discretionary ability to pick and choose who to go after, and ensuring that is done in a uniform and politically unbiased way could arguably trump priority of any particular person being prosecuted. It may be the case this is not politically motivated. But were there cases where investigations are politically motivated, I would much rather see those people get away than political bias of investigatory agencies being used to undermine democratic system, even if the criminals themselves were also undermining the democratic system.
  - kadoban 4y ago
    If our leaders can break the law without consequence, it undermines everything. The rich and powerful in the US need to be under _more_ scrutiny, not less.
    - notch656a 4y ago
      There was definitely consequences. Trump was voted out of office as a result of the various crimes the people witnessed. Also there was an impeachment that failed to convict. Also I'm not sure the prosecution of any particular individual necessarily outweighs the need to keep our justice system politically unbiased. Again I'd much prefer people go free rather than FBI and other agencies being used in a politically biased manner to undermine democracy. I'm not saying that is what is happening here, although it could be the case.
      - kadoban 4y ago
        > Trump was voted out of office as a result of the various crimes the people witnessed. That's not enough. If it's all just politics, then it's part of the game. We need law enforcement to stand up and do their job. "Some people are pretty sure I'm a criminal" isn't the same thing as a court of law saying it. > Also there was an impeachment that failed to convict. That's barely a consequence. It did essentially nothing. > Also I'm not sure the prosecution of any particular individual necessarily outweighs the need to keep our justice system politically unbiased. The justice system isn't seen as politically unbiased by the people who will yell about Trump getting prosecuted anyway. If they're going to cry bias regardless, let's drag the evidence into a court of law and shine some sunlight on it.
hotpotamus 4y ago
I'm going to suggest that to the police next time I commit a crime.
- aaron695 4y ago
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
klyrs 4y ago
Is this a hunt? There is already a large body of evidence that he attempted to destroy records that he was legally obligated to keep, and quite a few credible claims that he succeeded by flushing records down the toilet. To say nothing of the emoluments clause. Trump was entrusted with the highest office of the land, and flagrantly violated the laws and his oaths. At the head of the party that consistently claims that "law and order" is a guiding principle, bringing him to justice should be a no-brainer, right?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

anigbrowl 4y ago

South Korea seems to be doing OK despite being ahead of the US in this particular domain.

yongjik 4y ago
Yep, South Korea sent four ex-presidents to prison (three were pardoned, one is still in prison). It's not a perfect solution (obviously we'd prefer if we had presidents who didn't commit crimes), but I think it's a net positive. Surprisingly, when you throw an ex-president in jail, the society doesn't break down. The stock market barely even notices.

joezydeco 4y ago

All we can hope is that we keep enough people with integrity and apolitical viewpoints as a buffer between the political parties and the White House. This raid was certainly signed off by Christopher Wray, the director of the FBI. Wray was appointed by Trump. Feel free to call it a witch hunt, but you don't go into a warrant like this unless you are fairly certain of the outcome.

notch656a 4y ago
I just hope this doesn't turn into a trolley problem where one side of the tracks is justice dying and the other side is mass violence and instability.
codefreeordie 4y ago
- hvl2 4y ago
  Examples of similar raids?
  - codefreeordie 4y ago
    https://thehill.com/opinion/judiciary/3594107-the-mar-a-lago-raid-a-case-for-criminal-prosecution-or-another-insurance-policy-against-trump/amp/ https://thehill.com/opinion/judiciary/3594107-the-mar-a-lago... This article shows a barrage of Democrats not raided on similar warrants and a whole slew of Republicans raided on similarly-flimsy ground. It's simple: the FBI is the enforcement arm of the democratic party, and it operates transparently as such. It is in no way a legitimate law enforcement agency.l, and performs no legitimate function.
    - joezydeco 4y ago
      I think it's noble that you wish for equality. We all do. Let's hope you press for the same in all other aspects of your life and your vote at the ballot box. Vote for the candidates that work to represent everyone and not just wealthy white males.
  - codefreeordie 4y ago
    I tried to give examples, but apparently giving examples just gets your posts deleted.
- joezydeco 4y ago
  "and we have seen time and time again that they're fishing expeditions which achieve nothing" You sure about that? There are at least eight Trump administration individuals convicted of crimes because of those "fishing expeditions", with many more under indictment. And there are others that are still in contempt of congressional subpoenas. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-bannon-associates-factbox/factbox-here-are-eight-trump-associates-arrested-or-convicted-of-crimes-idUSKBN25G1YU https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-bannon-associat... And I think it's been made really clear that you don't get permits for "fishing expeditions" easily. It needs approval on many levels, including judges and magistrates installed by both parties. Funny thing, these "fishing expeditions" have been deployed against Democratic officials but come out with way less indictments and convictions. How many hours of testimony did Clinton sit down for over Bengazhi? 11? Did that result in anything? Why not? Oh yeah, and she showed up when subpoenaed. The party of "law and order" needs to put up or shut up. (PS: If this search of Mar-A-Lago was an abuse of power, Trump is more than free to release a copy of the warrant which shows exactly what the FBI was searching for. Let's see if that happens.)

kmos17 4y ago

Making sure no one is above the law is a cornerstone of our legal system, so I would argue it is in fact essential. Of course this is assuming there must be really strong probable cause in this case.

notch656a 4y ago
If "being above the law" is discretionary prosecution and investigation letting some people off the hook, then it actually is for good or ill a cornerstone of our legal system. FBI has broad discretionary ability to pick and choose who to go after, and ensuring that is done in a uniform and politically unbiased way could arguably trump priority of any particular person being prosecuted. It may be the case this is not politically motivated. But were there cases where investigations are politically motivated, I would much rather see those people get away than political bias of investigatory agencies being used to undermine democratic system, even if the criminals themselves were also undermining the democratic system.
- kadoban 4y ago
  If our leaders can break the law without consequence, it undermines everything. The rich and powerful in the US need to be under _more_ scrutiny, not less.
  - notch656a 4y ago
    There was definitely consequences. Trump was voted out of office as a result of the various crimes the people witnessed. Also there was an impeachment that failed to convict. Also I'm not sure the prosecution of any particular individual necessarily outweighs the need to keep our justice system politically unbiased. Again I'd much prefer people go free rather than FBI and other agencies being used in a politically biased manner to undermine democracy. I'm not saying that is what is happening here, although it could be the case.
    - kadoban 4y ago
      > Trump was voted out of office as a result of the various crimes the people witnessed. That's not enough. If it's all just politics, then it's part of the game. We need law enforcement to stand up and do their job. "Some people are pretty sure I'm a criminal" isn't the same thing as a court of law saying it. > Also there was an impeachment that failed to convict. That's barely a consequence. It did essentially nothing. > Also I'm not sure the prosecution of any particular individual necessarily outweighs the need to keep our justice system politically unbiased. The justice system isn't seen as politically unbiased by the people who will yell about Trump getting prosecuted anyway. If they're going to cry bias regardless, let's drag the evidence into a court of law and shine some sunlight on it.

hotpotamus 4y ago

I'm going to suggest that to the police next time I commit a crime.

aaron695 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

klyrs 4y ago

Is this a hunt? There is already a large body of evidence that he attempted to destroy records that he was legally obligated to keep, and quite a few credible claims that he succeeded by flushing records down the toilet. To say nothing of the emoluments clause. Trump was entrusted with the highest office of the land, and flagrantly violated the laws and his oaths. At the head of the party that consistently claims that "law and order" is a guiding principle, bringing him to justice should be a no-brainer, right?

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]