10 ms·

This seems like a no true scotsman opinion. The author is asking questions about life span or species of trees without doing any of the journalistic legwork.

This seems like a no true scotsman opinion. The author is asking questions about life span or species of trees without doing any of the journalistic legwork. There are many reasons to say that credits aren't enough if we're still contributing carbon, because few people have been saying "don't plant trees" in the areas that have established credits. But it's not the same as green washing; it might be more similar to cancer awareness campaigns, but there is some action. And of course the answer is "do x less", but that's not an option most of the developed world will choose. Do Y more is much more achievable, especially if it benefits the end user. So new recycling campaign "Recycle aluminum cans, it'll save you 5% on your next 24 cans, reduce the trade deficit, and help build pontoon boats and airplanes"

cowpig 4y ago
I think this video by Wendover Productions does a much better job than the article of both highlighting specific examples and laying out the perverse incentive structures that carbon offsetting creates: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AW3gaelBypY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AW3gaelBypY Here is the list of sources for that video if you're interested: [1] https://www.hawkmountain.org/news/special-projects/help-the-climate-and-the-mountain https://www.hawkmountain.org/news/special-projects/help-the-... [2] https://www.bluesource.com/demo/hawk-mountain/ https://www.bluesource.com/demo/hawk-mountain/ [3] https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidrvetter/2020/03/18/jpmorgan-chase-tops-dirty-list-of-35-fossil-fuel-funding-banks https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidrvetter/2020/03/18/jpmorga... [4] https://www.jpmorganchase.com/content/dam/jpmc/jpmorgan-chase-and-co/documents/jpmc-cr-esg-report-2019.pdf https://www.jpmorganchase.com/content/dam/jpmc/jpmorgan-chas... [5] https://gspp.berkeley.edu/assets/uploads/research/pdf/Haya-ER09-001-Measuring_emissions_against_an_alternative_future.pdf https://gspp.berkeley.edu/assets/uploads/research/pdf/Haya-E... [6] https://web.archive.org/web/20220605103102/http://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/handle/10665/204717/9789241565233_eng.pdf%3Bjsessionid%3D84BFF76A06408DC1638440E76A746C3D?sequence=1%C2%A0 https://web.archive.org/web/20220605103102/http://apps.who.i... [7] https://eco-act.com/carbon-credits/cleaner-cookstoves-low-carbon-economy/ https://eco-act.com/carbon-credits/cleaner-cookstoves-low-ca... [8] https://depts.washington.edu/airqual/Marshall_66.pdf https://depts.washington.edu/airqual/Marshall_66.pdf [9] https://blogs.worldbank.org/energy/understanding-cookstove-and-fuel-stacking-achieve-sdg https://blogs.worldbank.org/energy/understanding-cookstove-a... [10] https://mediamanager.sei.org/documents/Publications/Climate/sei-wp-2013-01-cookstoves-carbon-markets.pdf https://mediamanager.sei.org/documents/Publications/Climate/... [11] https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsfs.2019.0065 https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsfs.2019.006... [12] https://app.hubspot.com/documents/3298623/view/251152947?accessId=fd91dd https://app.hubspot.com/documents/3298623/view/251152947?acc...
TSiege 4y ago
This really misses the point of the claim. Carbon Credits are greenwashing because as it currently exists doesn't work. And almost every approach is based an unfounded schemes. Furthermore, carbon offsets are used to justify ecological damage; they exist for no other purpose. The problem with carbon offsetting is that almost none of the solutions work for long term. For example, if you're digging up oil and burning it, planting a tree wont help. The carbon you dug up from miles underneath our feet is removed from the global carbon cycle for millions of years, the carbon in a tree lasts as long as that tree is alive. Every living organism should be assumed to be decayed and returned to the carbon cycle unless specifically proven otherwise. For example, most of the carbon offset operations in California are being destroyed by wild fires [(1)](https://www.reuters.com/world/us/wildfires-are-destroying-californias-forest-carbon-credit-reserves-study-2022-08-05/ https://www.reuters.com/world/us/wildfires-are-destroying-ca...) If we want to be honest and about what is effective, it's not taking that flight and keeping that oil in the ground. We will delude ourselves if we think any growing any lifeform to capture carbon will work unless humans directly put it into the ground in old oil fields. The only other possibly viable alternative is through mineral reactions with carbon, turning it into stone
- madeofpalk 4y ago
  > If we want to be honest and about what is effective, it's not taking that flight and keeping that oil in the ground. I live in the UK. I think it’s reasonable to visit my family in Australia every few years. Is it bad if I purchase carbon offsets?
  - hgsgm 4y ago
  - SpicyLemonZest 4y ago
    Carbon offsets are just donations to environmental groups. There's nothing bad about either taking flights or making donations, but it's wrong in the "factually incorrect" sense to think that if you pick the right amounts to donate to the right groups you can make your flight environmentally friendly. It's like buying a "local business" offset every time you shop at Walmart - you can just do it if you want to or don't do it if you don't.

cowpig 4y ago

I think this video by Wendover Productions does a much better job than the article of both highlighting specific examples and laying out the perverse incentive structures that carbon offsetting creates: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AW3gaelBypY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AW3gaelBypY Here is the list of sources for that video if you're interested: [1] https://www.hawkmountain.org/news/special-projects/help-the-climate-and-the-mountain https://www.hawkmountain.org/news/special-projects/help-the-... [2] https://www.bluesource.com/demo/hawk-mountain/ https://www.bluesource.com/demo/hawk-mountain/ [3] https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidrvetter/2020/03/18/jpmorgan-chase-tops-dirty-list-of-35-fossil-fuel-funding-banks https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidrvetter/2020/03/18/jpmorga... [4] https://www.jpmorganchase.com/content/dam/jpmc/jpmorgan-chase-and-co/documents/jpmc-cr-esg-report-2019.pdf https://www.jpmorganchase.com/content/dam/jpmc/jpmorgan-chas... [5] https://gspp.berkeley.edu/assets/uploads/research/pdf/Haya-ER09-001-Measuring_emissions_against_an_alternative_future.pdf https://gspp.berkeley.edu/assets/uploads/research/pdf/Haya-E... [6] https://web.archive.org/web/20220605103102/http://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/handle/10665/204717/9789241565233_eng.pdf%3Bjsessionid%3D84BFF76A06408DC1638440E76A746C3D?sequence=1%C2%A0 https://web.archive.org/web/20220605103102/http://apps.who.i... [7] https://eco-act.com/carbon-credits/cleaner-cookstoves-low-carbon-economy/ https://eco-act.com/carbon-credits/cleaner-cookstoves-low-ca... [8] https://depts.washington.edu/airqual/Marshall_66.pdf https://depts.washington.edu/airqual/Marshall_66.pdf [9] https://blogs.worldbank.org/energy/understanding-cookstove-and-fuel-stacking-achieve-sdg https://blogs.worldbank.org/energy/understanding-cookstove-a... [10] https://mediamanager.sei.org/documents/Publications/Climate/sei-wp-2013-01-cookstoves-carbon-markets.pdf https://mediamanager.sei.org/documents/Publications/Climate/... [11] https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsfs.2019.0065 https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsfs.2019.006... [12] https://app.hubspot.com/documents/3298623/view/251152947?accessId=fd91dd https://app.hubspot.com/documents/3298623/view/251152947?acc...

TSiege 4y ago

This really misses the point of the claim. Carbon Credits are greenwashing because as it currently exists doesn't work. And almost every approach is based an unfounded schemes. Furthermore, carbon offsets are used to justify ecological damage; they exist for no other purpose. The problem with carbon offsetting is that almost none of the solutions work for long term. For example, if you're digging up oil and burning it, planting a tree wont help. The carbon you dug up from miles underneath our feet is removed from the global carbon cycle for millions of years, the carbon in a tree lasts as long as that tree is alive. Every living organism should be assumed to be decayed and returned to the carbon cycle unless specifically proven otherwise. For example, most of the carbon offset operations in California are being destroyed by wild fires [(1)](https://www.reuters.com/world/us/wildfires-are-destroying-californias-forest-carbon-credit-reserves-study-2022-08-05/ https://www.reuters.com/world/us/wildfires-are-destroying-ca...) If we want to be honest and about what is effective, it's not taking that flight and keeping that oil in the ground. We will delude ourselves if we think any growing any lifeform to capture carbon will work unless humans directly put it into the ground in old oil fields. The only other possibly viable alternative is through mineral reactions with carbon, turning it into stone

madeofpalk 4y ago
> If we want to be honest and about what is effective, it's not taking that flight and keeping that oil in the ground. I live in the UK. I think it’s reasonable to visit my family in Australia every few years. Is it bad if I purchase carbon offsets?
- hgsgm 4y ago
- SpicyLemonZest 4y ago
  Carbon offsets are just donations to environmental groups. There's nothing bad about either taking flights or making donations, but it's wrong in the "factually incorrect" sense to think that if you pick the right amounts to donate to the right groups you can make your flight environmentally friendly. It's like buying a "local business" offset every time you shop at Walmart - you can just do it if you want to or don't do it if you don't.