13 ms·

Infineon chip flaws to disrupt IONIQ 5 EV production

109 points by robin_reala 4y ago

spockz 4y ago
This also affects Kia EV6 as they mostly the same car. Which other cars are affected?
- ulfw 4y ago
  https://www.genesis.com/worldwide/en/models/luxury-suv-genesis/gv60/highlights.html https://www.genesis.com/worldwide/en/models/luxury-suv-genes...
  - piceas 4y ago
    I don't know if the other models are affected but here are are some wiki links to their platform. The Genesis GV60 is a battery electric compact luxury crossover SUV produced by Genesis, a luxury vehicle marque of Hyundai. Slotted below the GV70, it is the first Genesis product to be developed on the Hyundai Electric Global Modular Platform (E-GMP). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genesis_GV60 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genesis_GV60 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyundai_Electric_Global_Modular_Platform https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyundai_Electric_Global_Modula... Hyundai plan to release 23 battery electric vehicles, including 11 exclusively electric vehicles, using the E-GMP platform. Models released: Hyundai Ioniq 5 (NE) (2021–present) Hyundai Ioniq 6 (CE) (2022–present) Kia EV6 (CV) (2021–present) Genesis GV60 (JW) (2021–present) Upcoming models: Kia EV4 (anticipated to launch in 2022)[13] Kia EV9 (anticipated to launch in 2023)[14][15] Hyundai Ioniq 7 (anticipated to launch in 2024)[14][16] The GV60 appears to be special because "The Crystal Sphere is one of the most compelling design elements of the GV60. It is not only an aesthetic element of the interior design, but it is also built to create an emotional connection between the driver and the vehicle."
    - joezydeco 4y ago
      So I had to look up this "Crystal Sphere" and it's just a funny shift knob that spins around when turned on. Okay.
moepstar 4y ago
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- spockz 4y ago
  Since July 11th, 23 out of 56 stolen cars have been Kia/Hyundais models 2021 and older, that use keys to start," the police department posted on Twitter. "Anyone with a KIA/Hyundai that uses a key, please #lockitup." This sounds like it is about older models? What is the relationship with this news? Just the brand?
  - rasz 4y ago
    Kia Boyz, trivial to hotwire >“Stealing the SUVs is easy as 1-2-3,” according to step-by-step directions on YouTube and TikTok. >Thieves tear out the steering column and use a simple USB cable to start the ignition. This affects Kia models from 2011 to 2021 and Hyundai models from 2015 to 2021. Both companies say 2022 vehicles have been modified to prevent this.
    - fckgw 4y ago
      This issue does not affect push-button models. Just ones with keys. The Hyundai Ioniq is a push-button vehicle.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
Animats 4y ago
That's not a "chip", it's a large power semiconductor. Those things are somewhat boring commodity components, but the electric car people want them smaller and cheaper, which means more exotic technologies. Looking for IGBTs on DigiKey shows a bad situation. Most of the availability is on "marketplace". DigiKey used to be entirely a primary distributor, dealing directly with manufacturers, stocking parts, and shipping them to buyers. Now they also have an eBay type operation where you can buy from sketchy resellers. "wait time for IONIQ 5 buyers should be longer than one year." Ouch.
- magicalhippo 4y ago
  > That's not a "chip", it's a large power semiconductor. Still, a module like this[1] is kinda like an integrated circuit, ain't it? Not saying that's the part mentioned in the story, but it's an IGBT from the same company. [1]: https://www.richis-lab.de/BipolarA04.htm https://www.richis-lab.de/BipolarA04.htm
  - dfox 4y ago
    Most discrete transistors are made with IC-like process and contain surprisingly intricate internal structures.
    - magicalhippo 4y ago
      Especially "smart" transistors, like this[1] VN820-E[2]. Hard to argue that ain't an integrated circuit. [1]: https://www.richis-lab.de/FET13.htm https://www.richis-lab.de/FET13.htm [2]: https://www.st.com/en/automotive-analog-and-power/vn820-e.html https://www.st.com/en/automotive-analog-and-power/vn820-e.ht...
      - amelius 4y ago
        In any case, it probably doesn't contain features as small as found in modern CPUs.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
deleted 4y ago
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bob1029 4y ago
Semiconductor manufacturing is such a tenuous proposition. This is why we simply cannot rely entirely on one vendor/process to make all our chips. Vertical integration on simpler process nodes seems like a good idea if you are going to be in the business of making electric cars. To me, IGBT manufacturing for EVs is equivalent to building the valve train for an engine. You have to have control over the fundamental aspects of your business or you are just a hat riding on top of someone else’s.
- iasay 4y ago
  Back in the old days we had qualified second sources for all parts that went into engineering. In fact it was part of the design specification not to rely on one vendor. That put some limitations on what was possible as it pushed the technology back around ten years behind state of the art, but it did not in any way subtract from what we were delivering. Mostly because we actually could deliver it...
  - linkdink 4y ago
    That's because the US military required it. Electronics and component reliability was so terrible that they started naming and shaming by publishing reports about exactly how each part was total crap. It showed industry that everyone else was making garbage, and that the military would pay for quality. Add in the second source rule, and suddenly everyone is in the business of making better quality parts. Nowadays, there are additional market forces that drive higher quality. Technology also advanced beyond what you could do with discrete components and simple building block ICs. So the cost-benefit scales tipped towards allowing single source.
- baybal2 4y ago
  > You have to have control over the fundamental aspects of your business or you are just a hat riding on top of someone else’s. Amazon Microsoft Google are hats riding on top of CPU vendors. And these hats, honestly speaking, are doing much better than semis.
londons_explore 4y ago
They should have used MOSFETS instead of IGBT's for their power electronics... IGBT's have pretty much been displaced as the best solution to any engineering problem now - so I'm very surprised they're being used in a new design. Tesla has eliminated IGBT's from their new designs since 2016/2017. I have a suspicion Hyundai might be trying to reuse designs from previous models... There are plenty of suitable MOSFETs available to buy today, retail. Some silicon carbide MOSFETs and drivers are near drop in replacements. Minor design revisions would be needed, new software, and lots of drivetrain stuff would need to be retested. There wouldn't be any systems-level changes. They cost a few cents extra, but compared to delaying release by 12 months, that doesn't seem like an issue. I wonder if there are perhaps other delays, but pinning everything on these late IGBT's will be good fodder for the lawsuit about how much compensation Infineon owes for failure to deliver the ordered parts...?
- Ballas 4y ago
  Where can I get SiCFETs that costs cents more than IGBTs? Please share your source. IGBTs are still very popular in most power electronics designs - mostly due to cost, but if what you say is true, then that will change very quickly.
  - the_mitsuhiko 4y ago
    Considering this car is on a completely new platform I also assume there are technical reasons for it.
  - deqwer 4y ago
- zeroflow 4y ago
  > Minor design revisions would be needed, new software, and lots of drivetrain stuff would need to be retested. All of those changes would push a series release very far into the future. A "minor design revision" incurs a mountain of verification / validation / testing etc. It will be much cheaper and faster waiting for the components.
rasz 4y ago
>Hyundai Group is pushing for internal chip production HAHA, good luck even coming close to specification of Infineon parts. >LACK OF ALTERNATIVES no shit Sherlock, this is life on the bleeding edge >It is also trying to shorten the delivery time by transporting chips from global semiconductor makers by air. you mean they used ocean freight on tiny light components (maybe hundred kg per 10K cars) to cut costs? :) >Infineon accounts for 12.7% of global automotive chip output, trailed by the Netherlands-based NXP and Japan’s Renesas with 11.8% and 8.4%, respectively. automotive, but not EV. Afaik NXP makes zero IGBTs, they make gate drivers. Renesas makes some, but their EV grade parts were supposed to start shipping in 2021 and didnt https://www.renesas.com/us/en/products/automotive-products/automotive-power-devices/automotive-igbt-0 https://www.renesas.com/us/en/products/automotive-products/a...
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  On point. Hyundai can bitch and posture all they want but those chips aren't some commodity parts they can multi source or make themselves not matter how much money they throw at the problem. You can't bring up decades of analog microelectronics design experience overnight. So they have to deal with whatever issues Infineon has. It's part of the risks of being on the bleeding edge. That's why even luxury German car companies usually stay on older tech.
  - lnsru 4y ago
    Power semiconductors aren’t the most bleeding edge. SiC technology is a recent game changer leveling all market players to the same tech level. IFX advantage with silicon is gone. The structures are big and Hyundai-Kia conglomerate can afford their own production for sure. They also have Samsung there. And they know their requirements best and can optimize for them instead of buying off-shelf parts from IFX. German premium manufacturers also don’t use 800V system with fast charging while Hyundai-Kia does.
    - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
      Samsung doesn't design cutting edge analog chips. Just because they fab NAND, DRAM, and cutting edge logic chips, don't mean they can switch to high performance analog chips on a whim. There's a reason, Infineon, TI, Vichay, and other's are still highly profitable.
Avlin67 4y ago
igbt is the cheap old way… They could use SuperJunction Si or better SiC mosfets… I would not buy an ev made of igbt…
mabbo 4y ago
My wife and I just agreed to put our deposit down so we can join the 2-year waiting list to get one of these cars. It's honestly just such a great vehicle for the price point it's at. Guess it'll be 3 years then.
- idontwantthis 4y ago
  What are you driving in the meantime?
- WORMS_EAT_WORMS 4y ago
  What makes it a great vehicle for you? I’m in the market for a non-Tesla EV and found this to just be a mediocre car from price and features. Best value EV is probably the Volkswagen ID.4 (or even the Bolt if you want smaller car). Curious who these people are sinking tons of cash into over-priced, non-Tesla EVs. Even with a $7500 fed tax credit AND some get up to $2500 for state, a complete rip-off vehicle for price. This doesn’t even include the dealer shenanigans, more expensive trims (with some almost essential features), and “market adjustments” markups. I guess it looks cheap compared to Tesla — but it’s not at all.
  - DeRock 4y ago
    The killer feature here is the recharge time, compared to the ID4 it will charge a similar amount in 20 mins vs 40 mins. That adds up on road trips. Its also more powerful, and has better tech (buggy/laggy infotainment is a common complaint on the ID4). > mediocre car from price and features. > over-priced, non-Tesla EVs. > a complete rip-off vehicle for price. > I guess it looks cheap compared to Tesla — but it’s not at all. You seem to have an axe to grind. What are you comparing to? The ID4 is a couple grand cheaper at best. The model Y would have been $20,000 more expensive than my IONIQ5 (AWD, SEL model) if you include the federal tax credit.
  - mabbo 4y ago
    Put very simply: Edmunds, the experts on cars, give the ID.4 an 8.2, and the Ioniq 5 an 8.3. They're both great cars. Here's a review comparing the two. https://insideevs.com/reviews/586981/hyundai-ioniq-5-vw-id4-comparison/ https://insideevs.com/reviews/586981/hyundai-ioniq-5-vw-id4-... The one place the ID.4 wins is performance. If you want a fun drive, it's better. But that's not high on my list. Any EV is going to be more fun to drive than my ten year old Honda Civic. But the rest, the Hyundai wins the day. Edit: also you're presuming I'm American and have your country's tax breaks, etc. Not the case, thankfully.
nus07 4y ago
I have no idea about the IONIQ 5 in terms of performance.I cannot afford it but boy is it a cool futuristic looking car. Love the design and the looks .
- joezydeco 4y ago
  My neighbor bought one last month (after selling his Tesla 3) and let me drive it. It's nice, nothing ostentatious, definitely not performance-oriented. Quiet. Nice amount of space inside for a crossover, and I suppose it's just a Tuscon with different sheet metal outside. The dash, steering column, and cabin controls felt more conventional than the Tesla "nothing but an iPad" thing which was nice.
RickJWagner 4y ago
There is going to be a huge gap in used cars for the years 2020-2022 (at least). The good news is that ICE cars have gotten so good that the ones made before then can last for a very long time.

109 points by robin_reala 4y ago

spockz 4y ago

This also affects Kia EV6 as they mostly the same car. Which other cars are affected?

ulfw 4y ago
https://www.genesis.com/worldwide/en/models/luxury-suv-genesis/gv60/highlights.html https://www.genesis.com/worldwide/en/models/luxury-suv-genes...
- piceas 4y ago
  I don't know if the other models are affected but here are are some wiki links to their platform. The Genesis GV60 is a battery electric compact luxury crossover SUV produced by Genesis, a luxury vehicle marque of Hyundai. Slotted below the GV70, it is the first Genesis product to be developed on the Hyundai Electric Global Modular Platform (E-GMP). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genesis_GV60 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genesis_GV60 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyundai_Electric_Global_Modular_Platform https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyundai_Electric_Global_Modula... Hyundai plan to release 23 battery electric vehicles, including 11 exclusively electric vehicles, using the E-GMP platform. Models released: Hyundai Ioniq 5 (NE) (2021–present) Hyundai Ioniq 6 (CE) (2022–present) Kia EV6 (CV) (2021–present) Genesis GV60 (JW) (2021–present) Upcoming models: Kia EV4 (anticipated to launch in 2022)[13] Kia EV9 (anticipated to launch in 2023)[14][15] Hyundai Ioniq 7 (anticipated to launch in 2024)[14][16] The GV60 appears to be special because "The Crystal Sphere is one of the most compelling design elements of the GV60. It is not only an aesthetic element of the interior design, but it is also built to create an emotional connection between the driver and the vehicle."
  - joezydeco 4y ago
    So I had to look up this "Crystal Sphere" and it's just a funny shift knob that spins around when turned on. Okay.

moepstar 4y ago

spockz 4y ago
Since July 11th, 23 out of 56 stolen cars have been Kia/Hyundais models 2021 and older, that use keys to start," the police department posted on Twitter. "Anyone with a KIA/Hyundai that uses a key, please #lockitup." This sounds like it is about older models? What is the relationship with this news? Just the brand?
- rasz 4y ago
  Kia Boyz, trivial to hotwire >“Stealing the SUVs is easy as 1-2-3,” according to step-by-step directions on YouTube and TikTok. >Thieves tear out the steering column and use a simple USB cable to start the ignition. This affects Kia models from 2011 to 2021 and Hyundai models from 2015 to 2021. Both companies say 2022 vehicles have been modified to prevent this.
  - fckgw 4y ago
    This issue does not affect push-button models. Just ones with keys. The Hyundai Ioniq is a push-button vehicle.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

Animats 4y ago

That's not a "chip", it's a large power semiconductor. Those things are somewhat boring commodity components, but the electric car people want them smaller and cheaper, which means more exotic technologies. Looking for IGBTs on DigiKey shows a bad situation. Most of the availability is on "marketplace". DigiKey used to be entirely a primary distributor, dealing directly with manufacturers, stocking parts, and shipping them to buyers. Now they also have an eBay type operation where you can buy from sketchy resellers. "wait time for IONIQ 5 buyers should be longer than one year." Ouch.

magicalhippo 4y ago
> That's not a "chip", it's a large power semiconductor. Still, a module like this[1] is kinda like an integrated circuit, ain't it? Not saying that's the part mentioned in the story, but it's an IGBT from the same company. [1]: https://www.richis-lab.de/BipolarA04.htm https://www.richis-lab.de/BipolarA04.htm
- dfox 4y ago
  Most discrete transistors are made with IC-like process and contain surprisingly intricate internal structures.
  - magicalhippo 4y ago
    Especially "smart" transistors, like this[1] VN820-E[2]. Hard to argue that ain't an integrated circuit. [1]: https://www.richis-lab.de/FET13.htm https://www.richis-lab.de/FET13.htm [2]: https://www.st.com/en/automotive-analog-and-power/vn820-e.html https://www.st.com/en/automotive-analog-and-power/vn820-e.ht...
    - amelius 4y ago
      In any case, it probably doesn't contain features as small as found in modern CPUs.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

bob1029 4y ago

Semiconductor manufacturing is such a tenuous proposition. This is why we simply cannot rely entirely on one vendor/process to make all our chips. Vertical integration on simpler process nodes seems like a good idea if you are going to be in the business of making electric cars. To me, IGBT manufacturing for EVs is equivalent to building the valve train for an engine. You have to have control over the fundamental aspects of your business or you are just a hat riding on top of someone else’s.

iasay 4y ago
Back in the old days we had qualified second sources for all parts that went into engineering. In fact it was part of the design specification not to rely on one vendor. That put some limitations on what was possible as it pushed the technology back around ten years behind state of the art, but it did not in any way subtract from what we were delivering. Mostly because we actually could deliver it...
- linkdink 4y ago
  That's because the US military required it. Electronics and component reliability was so terrible that they started naming and shaming by publishing reports about exactly how each part was total crap. It showed industry that everyone else was making garbage, and that the military would pay for quality. Add in the second source rule, and suddenly everyone is in the business of making better quality parts. Nowadays, there are additional market forces that drive higher quality. Technology also advanced beyond what you could do with discrete components and simple building block ICs. So the cost-benefit scales tipped towards allowing single source.
baybal2 4y ago
> You have to have control over the fundamental aspects of your business or you are just a hat riding on top of someone else’s. Amazon Microsoft Google are hats riding on top of CPU vendors. And these hats, honestly speaking, are doing much better than semis.

londons_explore 4y ago

They should have used MOSFETS instead of IGBT's for their power electronics... IGBT's have pretty much been displaced as the best solution to any engineering problem now - so I'm very surprised they're being used in a new design. Tesla has eliminated IGBT's from their new designs since 2016/2017. I have a suspicion Hyundai might be trying to reuse designs from previous models... There are plenty of suitable MOSFETs available to buy today, retail. Some silicon carbide MOSFETs and drivers are near drop in replacements. Minor design revisions would be needed, new software, and lots of drivetrain stuff would need to be retested. There wouldn't be any systems-level changes. They cost a few cents extra, but compared to delaying release by 12 months, that doesn't seem like an issue. I wonder if there are perhaps other delays, but pinning everything on these late IGBT's will be good fodder for the lawsuit about how much compensation Infineon owes for failure to deliver the ordered parts...?

Ballas 4y ago
Where can I get SiCFETs that costs cents more than IGBTs? Please share your source. IGBTs are still very popular in most power electronics designs - mostly due to cost, but if what you say is true, then that will change very quickly.
- the_mitsuhiko 4y ago
  Considering this car is on a completely new platform I also assume there are technical reasons for it.
- deqwer 4y ago
zeroflow 4y ago
> Minor design revisions would be needed, new software, and lots of drivetrain stuff would need to be retested. All of those changes would push a series release very far into the future. A "minor design revision" incurs a mountain of verification / validation / testing etc. It will be much cheaper and faster waiting for the components.

rasz 4y ago

>Hyundai Group is pushing for internal chip production HAHA, good luck even coming close to specification of Infineon parts. >LACK OF ALTERNATIVES no shit Sherlock, this is life on the bleeding edge >It is also trying to shorten the delivery time by transporting chips from global semiconductor makers by air. you mean they used ocean freight on tiny light components (maybe hundred kg per 10K cars) to cut costs? :) >Infineon accounts for 12.7% of global automotive chip output, trailed by the Netherlands-based NXP and Japan’s Renesas with 11.8% and 8.4%, respectively. automotive, but not EV. Afaik NXP makes zero IGBTs, they make gate drivers. Renesas makes some, but their EV grade parts were supposed to start shipping in 2021 and didnt https://www.renesas.com/us/en/products/automotive-products/automotive-power-devices/automotive-igbt-0 https://www.renesas.com/us/en/products/automotive-products/a...

ChuckNorris89 4y ago
On point. Hyundai can bitch and posture all they want but those chips aren't some commodity parts they can multi source or make themselves not matter how much money they throw at the problem. You can't bring up decades of analog microelectronics design experience overnight. So they have to deal with whatever issues Infineon has. It's part of the risks of being on the bleeding edge. That's why even luxury German car companies usually stay on older tech.
- lnsru 4y ago
  Power semiconductors aren’t the most bleeding edge. SiC technology is a recent game changer leveling all market players to the same tech level. IFX advantage with silicon is gone. The structures are big and Hyundai-Kia conglomerate can afford their own production for sure. They also have Samsung there. And they know their requirements best and can optimize for them instead of buying off-shelf parts from IFX. German premium manufacturers also don’t use 800V system with fast charging while Hyundai-Kia does.
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    Samsung doesn't design cutting edge analog chips. Just because they fab NAND, DRAM, and cutting edge logic chips, don't mean they can switch to high performance analog chips on a whim. There's a reason, Infineon, TI, Vichay, and other's are still highly profitable.

Avlin67 4y ago

igbt is the cheap old way… They could use SuperJunction Si or better SiC mosfets… I would not buy an ev made of igbt…

mabbo 4y ago

My wife and I just agreed to put our deposit down so we can join the 2-year waiting list to get one of these cars. It's honestly just such a great vehicle for the price point it's at. Guess it'll be 3 years then.

idontwantthis 4y ago
What are you driving in the meantime?
WORMS_EAT_WORMS 4y ago
What makes it a great vehicle for you? I’m in the market for a non-Tesla EV and found this to just be a mediocre car from price and features. Best value EV is probably the Volkswagen ID.4 (or even the Bolt if you want smaller car). Curious who these people are sinking tons of cash into over-priced, non-Tesla EVs. Even with a $7500 fed tax credit AND some get up to $2500 for state, a complete rip-off vehicle for price. This doesn’t even include the dealer shenanigans, more expensive trims (with some almost essential features), and “market adjustments” markups. I guess it looks cheap compared to Tesla — but it’s not at all.
- DeRock 4y ago
  The killer feature here is the recharge time, compared to the ID4 it will charge a similar amount in 20 mins vs 40 mins. That adds up on road trips. Its also more powerful, and has better tech (buggy/laggy infotainment is a common complaint on the ID4). > mediocre car from price and features. > over-priced, non-Tesla EVs. > a complete rip-off vehicle for price. > I guess it looks cheap compared to Tesla — but it’s not at all. You seem to have an axe to grind. What are you comparing to? The ID4 is a couple grand cheaper at best. The model Y would have been $20,000 more expensive than my IONIQ5 (AWD, SEL model) if you include the federal tax credit.
- mabbo 4y ago
  Put very simply: Edmunds, the experts on cars, give the ID.4 an 8.2, and the Ioniq 5 an 8.3. They're both great cars. Here's a review comparing the two. https://insideevs.com/reviews/586981/hyundai-ioniq-5-vw-id4-comparison/ https://insideevs.com/reviews/586981/hyundai-ioniq-5-vw-id4-... The one place the ID.4 wins is performance. If you want a fun drive, it's better. But that's not high on my list. Any EV is going to be more fun to drive than my ten year old Honda Civic. But the rest, the Hyundai wins the day. Edit: also you're presuming I'm American and have your country's tax breaks, etc. Not the case, thankfully.

nus07 4y ago

I have no idea about the IONIQ 5 in terms of performance.I cannot afford it but boy is it a cool futuristic looking car. Love the design and the looks .

joezydeco 4y ago
My neighbor bought one last month (after selling his Tesla 3) and let me drive it. It's nice, nothing ostentatious, definitely not performance-oriented. Quiet. Nice amount of space inside for a crossover, and I suppose it's just a Tuscon with different sheet metal outside. The dash, steering column, and cabin controls felt more conventional than the Tesla "nothing but an iPad" thing which was nice.

RickJWagner 4y ago

There is going to be a huge gap in used cars for the years 2020-2022 (at least). The good news is that ICE cars have gotten so good that the ones made before then can last for a very long time.