10 ms·

Intermittent fasting 2 days vs. 1 day per week

66 points by sgfgross 4y ago

wink 4y ago
This is the first of these kind of articles I see in a long time that actually has a tangible number for "calories allowed on a 'fasting' day", my main point usually being: does the milk in my coffee count against the fasting, or something like diet coke. No, I really don't want to start a discussion on this - I just find it funny that most of them seem to imply fasting as 0.0 calories per day, without explicitly mentioning it. And then the discussion about the coffee follows...
leereeves 4y ago
> Protein pacing refers to 4–6 meals/day evenly-spaced, where each meal contains 25–40g of protein That's a lot of protein, comparable to the amount that bodybuilders consume. Does fasting increase protein requirements?
- rumblestrut 4y ago
  I am current eating around that, and I am by no means a bodybuilder. I shoot for between 150 to 160 grams of protein per day. There's new discussion these days that western diets are woefully under consuming protein. Based on my own anecdotal evidence this year, I would certainly agree.
- lbotos 4y ago
  "High Carb" for 2200 Cals a day: Carbs:330g Protein:110g Fat:49g "Low Carb" for 2200 Cals a day : Carbs:138g Protein:248g Fat:73g Via: https://musclewiki.com/Macro_calculator https://musclewiki.com/Macro_calculator I think most of the modern world is actually not getting enough protein. Every single person I talk to when I help coach them on macros we find out they are not getting near enough protein. (Myself Included)
  - sschueller 4y ago
    With all the protein enriched foods[2] I can actually get too much protein. 2.5g per kg is too much even if you workout [1]. [1] https://healthyeating.sfgate.com/taking-200-grams-protein-safe-5906.html https://healthyeating.sfgate.com/taking-200-grams-protein-sa... [2] https://www.migros.ch/en/search?query=Protein https://www.migros.ch/en/search?query=Protein
  - failTide 4y ago
    I've been adding 0% greek yogurt to my breakfast - nice way to sneak some protein in there. I had no idea how low cal/ high protein that stuff was until recently.
    - User23 4y ago
      Low fat cottage cheese has almost as favorable a protein to calorie ratio in case you want some variety. Also you can buy egg whites in a carton and that’s a pure complete protein. I like to chop up some vegetables fill up a muffin tin with those and egg white, and bake little fritata type snacks.
      - failTide 4y ago
        That's a good call - I used to love cottage cheese as a kid. I'm putting that on my list. I've never experimented with egg whites but I love the idea of no cholesterol, I think I'll try that too.
  - gazelle21 4y ago
    I really wish their was more definitive studies on protein needs, based on exercise/lifestyle. All of the studies I've read tend to contradict with each other. During a phase of bodybuilding training I befriended a guy at the gym and he went on to train me. He convinced me that I needed more protein than ever before. This guys was massive, and had success locally at competitions. So I took his advice and started to consume on average 350 grams of protein, he wanted 400 but I just couldn't do it. I'm honestly not sure if it made a difference but I was at my most biggest, and strongest when I trained with him.
- anonuser123456 4y ago
  > Does fasting increase protein requirements? My understanding is no, the body conserves protein during fasting conditions.
  - User23 4y ago
    Fasting is often combined with resistance exercise to reduce sarcopenia. Thus increased protein intake is reasonable.
- hackerlight 4y ago
  Minimum for normal people should be 0.8*kg/day and muscle building gains top out at around 1.6*kg/day. If these people are fat then just 1.0*kg/day could be 125g/day.
  - FartyMcFarter 4y ago
    > If these people are fat I've always wondered - do the 0.8 / 1.6 grams of protein per kg apply equally across someone's whole weight? If someone has a lot of body fat compared to lean mass (bones / muscle etc), would the protein requirement per kg go down accordingly? In other words, does having more fat tissue increase protein requirements, or should we instead think of protein requirements only for lean body mass?
    - bcassedy 4y ago
      Recommendations I've seen that are targeted at people trying to lose fat are given in grams per kg of lean body mass. I can't imagine a mechanism for fat to increase the need for more protein beyond needing more muscle to carry around the extra weight but that's already reflected in LBM.
  - happyopossum 4y ago
    They targeted a BMI > 27.5, which could be ‘fat’ or it could be ‘a little soft’, or it could be someone who’s really swole. For reference a 27.5 BMI is 5’9” at 186lbs. I can attest that when I’m well muscled, nobody thinks I’m fat at 186, but when I’m not yolked, I look like a tad doughy. The average adult male in the US has a BMI of 26.6 btw…
    - mywittyname 4y ago
      Let's be honest, a 99.999% of people with a BMI > 27.5 did not get that way from hitting the gym too much. Weight lifters love to call out BMI as being worthless, but they ignore the fact that any exercise for American adults is rare, much less the amount of exercise required to hit a BMI of >25 due to pure muscle mass. The average adult male is in terrible shape. FWIW, people who exercise regularly should combine waist to height ratio (WHtR) with BMI. If you're BMI is high, but your WHtR is <0.5, then you're good. Otherwise, you're at risks for heart disease and stroke, even if you "look" healthy.
chasebank 4y ago
Having water fasted many times, I swear this has something to do with burning all the stored glycogen. I have no backing other than what I’ve experienced myself. I get really hungry for a week after a fast and continue to lose weight or stay the same. Anecdotally, I’ve chalked this up to as long as your glycogen bank isn’t full, you can pretty much eat whatever you want. Water fasting is glorious btw.
- klausnrooster 4y ago
  For anyone considering zero-calorie fasting for more than 1 day, please read up on it first. Pay special attention to the need for salt. You need to start every day of the fast with a glass of saltwater, on the order of 3 teaspoons of salt. If you take hot baths, you will perspire and need more salt. Take a glass of saltwater to the tub with you. Because if you sweat in the tub there is a good chance walking to the kitchen will be a panic-inducing challenge. Also, it is best to do extended fasts, at least after day 3, on vacation/holiday. You may not feel like doing much.
  - gutitout 4y ago
    There’s many supplements that help with this. Someone refers to it as snake juice. Various salts and minerals
- blastro 4y ago
  This assessment resonates with my experience as well.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
  Could you elaborate a little about your regimen? Each time I attempted water fasting, the next day I was basically famished ( and needless to say, any progress made was lost ).
  - unethical_ban 4y ago
    I have the same question. Specifically, for a fast lasting longer than 24 hours, is any supplement taken? What side effects occur? I did Paleo in 2012 for several months with success. However, I have tried Keto/low carb again several times with less success. Specifically with Sated meal replacement. I get muscle cramps and other side effects that I assume are due to changes in the diet.
qsi 4y ago
One should note that the participants (N=20) were divided into two groups with the respective regimens, and put on a controlled calorie diet for the rest of the time. Evaluation was after four weeks. This study tells us very little. Small sample size, constrained diets without a proper control (protein pacing without IF, or no restriction at all), short evaluation horizon. There could be something to it, but as they say, that requires a lot of further study. In itself this study provides a hint, certainly nothing close to an authoratative conclusion.
sschueller 4y ago
1700 cal/day seems quite low and I would think would result in weight loss continuing also on non-fasting days.
- unethical_ban 4y ago
  They use the term "eating freely" which to me would imply the option to consume nothing but popcorn and McDonalds. Or at least the option to eat as many calories as desired. To have a caloric restriction below 2000 per day is a restricted diet to me - not that that's bad.
- ravedave5 4y ago
  2000 is not at all accurate for most Americans sedentary lifestyle.
  - Spivak 4y ago
    Yeah, and having a single number makes no sense because on average men and woman have different requirements. I live a well above average active lifestyle and my maintenance is in the ballpark of 1400/day.
- _tom_ 4y ago
  My annoyance with all of these numbers is they are meaningless without some measure of size. I'm literally twice the size of my friend, at the same BMI (more than a foot taller). So should I be eating 3400? Or should they be eating 850?
  - greendestiny_re 4y ago
    I think I have the answer. You're supposed to: - count your calories and maintain the same calorie intake for a while - measure your body weight or other metric you want to change throughout So, if you're eating 2,500 calories a day and see you're gaining weight, you have a baseline you want to go below to lose weight.
icegreentea2 4y ago
If you're interested you can see the entire paper: https://nutritionj.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12937-022-00790-0 https://nutritionj.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12937... N=10 in each group, and the IF-2 day group has a single clear outlier (someone who is obviously larger than everyone else).
OJFord 4y ago
Is the original title too long? I'd suggest spelling out at least 'intermittent fasting'. (It looks like shouty 'if' at the moment, and then 1/2 days/week what?)
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- dang 4y ago
  Yes, we need legible titles. Submitted title was "IF 2 days vs. 1 day/week increases weight loss in overweight m/f" but I think we can just use a prefix of the article title. I've changed it to that now.
daviross 4y ago
> protein pacing diet for the remaining five/six days/week (Protein pacing refers to 4–6 meals/day evenly-spaced, where each meal contains 25–40g of protein) > During fasting days, participants fasting for one day/week were allowed to consume 400 Kcal/day, while participants fasting for two consecutive days were allowed 500 Kcal/day. During non-fasting days the dietary regimen provided 1350 and 1700 kcals/day for women and men, respectively, and a macronutrient distribution consisting of 35% protein, 35% carbohydrate, and 30% fat. That's somehow more calories/day than I would expect for a "fasting day", and fairly restrictive over-all. I'd be curious to hear how these compare to someone on the 1350/1700 kcal/day diet 7 days a week. > Extending beyond 4-weeks reduces compliance and may be overly excessive for a caloric restriction and 2 day IF and create undue metabolic, physiologic, hormonal, and psychological stress in the study participants. Also something I was wondering, the repeated emphasis on short-term benefits has me wonder how the participants did after the trial. Does it do much good if you drop more but it bounces back? > Isagenix International, LLC (Gilbert, AZ, USA) provided all meal replacement shakes, bars, beverages, and supplements. > Whole Blend IsaLean® Shakes, Cleanse for Life®, Ionix® Supreme, Collagen Bone Broth, AMPED™ Hydrate, Harvest/Whey Thins™, IsaDelight® Chocolates, > This study was supported by a grant (IRB#: 1911–859) from Isagenix International, LLC > P.J.A. (the primary author) is a member of the scientific advisory board at Isagenix International LLC, the study’s sponsor. E.G. and A.E.M. are employed by Isagenix International LLC. Ok, that reads as very suspect, now.
- bena 4y ago
  Assuming 2000 kcal/day is the normal amount blah blah blah. For men, they are running a 300 kcal deficit for 5 days and 1500 kcal deficit for the other two. For a total of 4500 kcal per week. Or losing about a pound and a half. Now, seeing as this is for overweight people, it's likely to be even more. As it takes more calories per day to maintain higher weights. So if the person's maintenance is about 3000 kcal/day, that's going to be a deficit of roughly 11,500 kcal per week. Which is close to 4 pounds. But then again, restricting yourself to just 2000 kcal/day would have you lose about a pound and a half per week. Because, when you are very overweight, lots of things work.
- saargrin 4y ago
  1700 kcal a day for male is already pretty high calorie deficit even without any physical activity
ramesh31 4y ago
Eating less food causes more weight loss. Astounding.
bhaney 4y ago
> Given the same energy intake > During fasting days, participants fasting for one day/week were allowed to consume 400 Kcal/day, while participants fasting for two consecutive days were allowed 500 Kcal/day. During non-fasting days the dietary regimen provided 1350 and 1700 kcals/day for women and men, respectively That seems like the first claim is just untrue and the 2-day-fasters are consuming fewer calories overall? If all the non-fasting days are the same for both groups like this says, then the 2-day-fasting men are consuming 1100 fewer calories per week (and 750 fewer for women). Even if intermittent fasting did nothing at all, I would expect that extra calorie deficit to result in more weight loss.
- tgtweak 4y ago
  1700kcals/day is already in diet territory for an overweight male, honestly. I think that the logic of giving even less to those fasting is pretty obvious that it would lead to more weight loss. You can read the full study here, but it seems to confirm a caloric defecit on the IF2 and IF group vs control. https://nutritionj.biomedcentral.com/track/pdf/10.1186/s12937-022-00790-0.pdf https://nutritionj.biomedcentral.com/track/pdf/10.1186/s1293... ... IF1-P, 9058±692 kcals/week vs. IF2-P, 8389±438 kcals/week A proper methodology would be to have all 3 groups consume the same 7-day baseline diet for 2 weeks, then switch into the IF groups and monitor increases in rate-of-change for body weight vs net body weight difference before/after. There should also be similar caloric input for all groups before and after program to see if there is actually an additional benefit to intermittent fasting vs caloric input reduction.
DoreenMichele 4y ago
The reason why intermittent fasting works is that it is associated with increased oxidation of fatty acids (lipolysis) and ketone body formation (ketogenesis), activated cell-signaling pathways (insulin sensitivity, reduced inflammation, autophagy), and preservation of lean body mass, known as “metabolic switching”. The interesting fact however is that typically, these mechanisms are not fully activated until at least 24 hours of fasting. Well, this sounds to me like they know it has an effect but they don't actually know the full story on why it works.
- WithinReason 4y ago
  That's when you consume your glycogen stores
  - DoreenMichele 4y ago
    Yeah, but my point is that IF is generally under 24 hours, yet has an effect. So they seem to not have a good explanation for why IF helps given that their hypothesis fits what we know happens after the 24 hour mark and you aren't doing that. "We know it works because after 24 hours, X happens" does not explain why it works when you aren't hitting that mark. Sorry.
Judderman 4y ago
edmcnulty101 4y ago
Eat 500cals for two days. I'll just be fat.
- ishjoh 4y ago
  I tried fasting as well. Every Sunday I would limit myself to about 400cals. I was miserable and mean. It wasn't a good strategy for me. I'm having a lot more success with a changed way of life, but to do that I also needed the support of those around me. In particular I needed to get my wife on board to help me make better food choices and to have healthy choices at dinner time. She has been incredible and very supportive. Once that shifted into place all the pieces came together. What's interesting is that I almost needed all of them in place to really start seeing the changes I wanted. What worked for me: I try and walk at least 30 mins everyday. I track my activity using an apple watch. I track what I eat since I don't really know the macronutrients in foods or the calories (lose it app, paid subscription). Before I would just eat until I felt full. What's really interesting is that eating more of the right things I feel just as full but it's many fewer calories and a much better macronutrient breakdown. I try and get a lot more protein in my diet. I try and drink at least 3L of water, I think this helps me to not feel hungry as well. I've been at this for just about 2 months now and I feel and look much better than I have in a long time. I really think that these changes are ones that I can stick with for the rest of my life.
  - edmcnulty101 4y ago
    Sounds like a lot of work compared to just being fat. ;)
m3kw9 4y ago
Dinner at 7 and then breakfast at 7 m, aren’t most people intermittent fasting?
shaicoleman 4y ago
I found that OMAD (one meal a day) works well for me. I've been consistently losing 1-2kg per month on it, and it's something I feel I could sustain forever.
- playingalong 4y ago
  How do "losing 1-2kg per month" and "forever" play together?
  - shaicoleman 4y ago
    OMAD can be tweaked for stable weight - e.g. by increasing the eating window from 1 hour to 2 hours, by eating more, or by adding an extra meal once in a while. Weight loss slowed down naturally once I've reached a healthy weight range.
davman 4y ago
If someone can make it so it doesn't feel like I can no longer think or move any muscles or start sweating if I go more than about 3 hours without eating, then I'm on board! Also hunger pangs. Please no.
- fredrikholm 4y ago
  You are describing hypoglycemia. Are you often thirsty, tired, hangry? Pee a lot at night? If so, it might be a good idea to go and check your blood sugar.
  - davman 4y ago
    Yeah unfortunately I’ve had these symptoms throughout my life, have been regularly checked for diabetes but no dice. My dad has type 1 so we recognised my symptoms, but apparently it isn’t diabetes.
    - fredrikholm 4y ago
      I hope its manageable! Glad to hear that it isn't diabetes at least. Wife is T1, so whenever I hear people describe hyper/hypoglycemia I can't help but to ask.
      - davman 4y ago
        Appreciate your concern! :) Apparently hypoglycemia without diabetes is a thing (you prompted me to google), so I've ordered a blood sugar monitor and I'll do tracking for a week or two with a fast.
deanc 4y ago
Interestingly fasting which induces ketosis, has been shown to reduce cyst growth in rats with Polycistic Kidney Disease (PKD). A human trial is ongoing.
hgazx 4y ago
Why is it called fasting when you’re allowed to eat 500 kcal ? I would’ve assumed it meant 0 cal
sudden_dystopia 4y ago
As someone that intermittently fasts everyday, I don’t think weight loss has anything to do with the actual fasting, I think it just helps you control when you eat and helps you meet a caloric deficit. I do enjoy the clarity of mind that I feel when I don’t eat for 16-18 hours though.
martin_a 4y ago
You can stop reading here: > a group of 20 participants That is unscientific and the results are anecdotal at best.

66 points by sgfgross 4y ago

wink 4y ago

This is the first of these kind of articles I see in a long time that actually has a tangible number for "calories allowed on a 'fasting' day", my main point usually being: does the milk in my coffee count against the fasting, or something like diet coke. No, I really don't want to start a discussion on this - I just find it funny that most of them seem to imply fasting as 0.0 calories per day, without explicitly mentioning it. And then the discussion about the coffee follows...

leereeves 4y ago

> Protein pacing refers to 4–6 meals/day evenly-spaced, where each meal contains 25–40g of protein That's a lot of protein, comparable to the amount that bodybuilders consume. Does fasting increase protein requirements?

rumblestrut 4y ago
I am current eating around that, and I am by no means a bodybuilder. I shoot for between 150 to 160 grams of protein per day. There's new discussion these days that western diets are woefully under consuming protein. Based on my own anecdotal evidence this year, I would certainly agree.
lbotos 4y ago
"High Carb" for 2200 Cals a day: Carbs:330g Protein:110g Fat:49g "Low Carb" for 2200 Cals a day : Carbs:138g Protein:248g Fat:73g Via: https://musclewiki.com/Macro_calculator https://musclewiki.com/Macro_calculator I think most of the modern world is actually not getting enough protein. Every single person I talk to when I help coach them on macros we find out they are not getting near enough protein. (Myself Included)
- sschueller 4y ago
  With all the protein enriched foods[2] I can actually get too much protein. 2.5g per kg is too much even if you workout [1]. [1] https://healthyeating.sfgate.com/taking-200-grams-protein-safe-5906.html https://healthyeating.sfgate.com/taking-200-grams-protein-sa... [2] https://www.migros.ch/en/search?query=Protein https://www.migros.ch/en/search?query=Protein
- failTide 4y ago
  I've been adding 0% greek yogurt to my breakfast - nice way to sneak some protein in there. I had no idea how low cal/ high protein that stuff was until recently.
  - User23 4y ago
    Low fat cottage cheese has almost as favorable a protein to calorie ratio in case you want some variety. Also you can buy egg whites in a carton and that’s a pure complete protein. I like to chop up some vegetables fill up a muffin tin with those and egg white, and bake little fritata type snacks.
    - failTide 4y ago
      That's a good call - I used to love cottage cheese as a kid. I'm putting that on my list. I've never experimented with egg whites but I love the idea of no cholesterol, I think I'll try that too.
- gazelle21 4y ago
  I really wish their was more definitive studies on protein needs, based on exercise/lifestyle. All of the studies I've read tend to contradict with each other. During a phase of bodybuilding training I befriended a guy at the gym and he went on to train me. He convinced me that I needed more protein than ever before. This guys was massive, and had success locally at competitions. So I took his advice and started to consume on average 350 grams of protein, he wanted 400 but I just couldn't do it. I'm honestly not sure if it made a difference but I was at my most biggest, and strongest when I trained with him.
anonuser123456 4y ago
> Does fasting increase protein requirements? My understanding is no, the body conserves protein during fasting conditions.
- User23 4y ago
  Fasting is often combined with resistance exercise to reduce sarcopenia. Thus increased protein intake is reasonable.
hackerlight 4y ago
Minimum for normal people should be 0.8*kg/day and muscle building gains top out at around 1.6*kg/day. If these people are fat then just 1.0*kg/day could be 125g/day.
- FartyMcFarter 4y ago
  > If these people are fat I've always wondered - do the 0.8 / 1.6 grams of protein per kg apply equally across someone's whole weight? If someone has a lot of body fat compared to lean mass (bones / muscle etc), would the protein requirement per kg go down accordingly? In other words, does having more fat tissue increase protein requirements, or should we instead think of protein requirements only for lean body mass?
  - bcassedy 4y ago
    Recommendations I've seen that are targeted at people trying to lose fat are given in grams per kg of lean body mass. I can't imagine a mechanism for fat to increase the need for more protein beyond needing more muscle to carry around the extra weight but that's already reflected in LBM.
- happyopossum 4y ago
  They targeted a BMI > 27.5, which could be ‘fat’ or it could be ‘a little soft’, or it could be someone who’s really swole. For reference a 27.5 BMI is 5’9” at 186lbs. I can attest that when I’m well muscled, nobody thinks I’m fat at 186, but when I’m not yolked, I look like a tad doughy. The average adult male in the US has a BMI of 26.6 btw…
  - mywittyname 4y ago
    Let's be honest, a 99.999% of people with a BMI > 27.5 did not get that way from hitting the gym too much. Weight lifters love to call out BMI as being worthless, but they ignore the fact that any exercise for American adults is rare, much less the amount of exercise required to hit a BMI of >25 due to pure muscle mass. The average adult male is in terrible shape. FWIW, people who exercise regularly should combine waist to height ratio (WHtR) with BMI. If you're BMI is high, but your WHtR is <0.5, then you're good. Otherwise, you're at risks for heart disease and stroke, even if you "look" healthy.

chasebank 4y ago

Having water fasted many times, I swear this has something to do with burning all the stored glycogen. I have no backing other than what I’ve experienced myself. I get really hungry for a week after a fast and continue to lose weight or stay the same. Anecdotally, I’ve chalked this up to as long as your glycogen bank isn’t full, you can pretty much eat whatever you want. Water fasting is glorious btw.

klausnrooster 4y ago
For anyone considering zero-calorie fasting for more than 1 day, please read up on it first. Pay special attention to the need for salt. You need to start every day of the fast with a glass of saltwater, on the order of 3 teaspoons of salt. If you take hot baths, you will perspire and need more salt. Take a glass of saltwater to the tub with you. Because if you sweat in the tub there is a good chance walking to the kitchen will be a panic-inducing challenge. Also, it is best to do extended fasts, at least after day 3, on vacation/holiday. You may not feel like doing much.
- gutitout 4y ago
  There’s many supplements that help with this. Someone refers to it as snake juice. Various salts and minerals
blastro 4y ago
This assessment resonates with my experience as well.
A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
Could you elaborate a little about your regimen? Each time I attempted water fasting, the next day I was basically famished ( and needless to say, any progress made was lost ).
- unethical_ban 4y ago
  I have the same question. Specifically, for a fast lasting longer than 24 hours, is any supplement taken? What side effects occur? I did Paleo in 2012 for several months with success. However, I have tried Keto/low carb again several times with less success. Specifically with Sated meal replacement. I get muscle cramps and other side effects that I assume are due to changes in the diet.

qsi 4y ago

One should note that the participants (N=20) were divided into two groups with the respective regimens, and put on a controlled calorie diet for the rest of the time. Evaluation was after four weeks. This study tells us very little. Small sample size, constrained diets without a proper control (protein pacing without IF, or no restriction at all), short evaluation horizon. There could be something to it, but as they say, that requires a lot of further study. In itself this study provides a hint, certainly nothing close to an authoratative conclusion.

sschueller 4y ago

1700 cal/day seems quite low and I would think would result in weight loss continuing also on non-fasting days.

unethical_ban 4y ago
They use the term "eating freely" which to me would imply the option to consume nothing but popcorn and McDonalds. Or at least the option to eat as many calories as desired. To have a caloric restriction below 2000 per day is a restricted diet to me - not that that's bad.
ravedave5 4y ago
2000 is not at all accurate for most Americans sedentary lifestyle.
- Spivak 4y ago
  Yeah, and having a single number makes no sense because on average men and woman have different requirements. I live a well above average active lifestyle and my maintenance is in the ballpark of 1400/day.
_tom_ 4y ago
My annoyance with all of these numbers is they are meaningless without some measure of size. I'm literally twice the size of my friend, at the same BMI (more than a foot taller). So should I be eating 3400? Or should they be eating 850?
- greendestiny_re 4y ago
  I think I have the answer. You're supposed to: - count your calories and maintain the same calorie intake for a while - measure your body weight or other metric you want to change throughout So, if you're eating 2,500 calories a day and see you're gaining weight, you have a baseline you want to go below to lose weight.

icegreentea2 4y ago

If you're interested you can see the entire paper: https://nutritionj.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12937-022-00790-0 https://nutritionj.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12937... N=10 in each group, and the IF-2 day group has a single clear outlier (someone who is obviously larger than everyone else).

OJFord 4y ago

Is the original title too long? I'd suggest spelling out at least 'intermittent fasting'. (It looks like shouty 'if' at the moment, and then 1/2 days/week what?)

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
dang 4y ago
Yes, we need legible titles. Submitted title was "IF 2 days vs. 1 day/week increases weight loss in overweight m/f" but I think we can just use a prefix of the article title. I've changed it to that now.

daviross 4y ago

> protein pacing diet for the remaining five/six days/week (Protein pacing refers to 4–6 meals/day evenly-spaced, where each meal contains 25–40g of protein) > During fasting days, participants fasting for one day/week were allowed to consume 400 Kcal/day, while participants fasting for two consecutive days were allowed 500 Kcal/day. During non-fasting days the dietary regimen provided 1350 and 1700 kcals/day for women and men, respectively, and a macronutrient distribution consisting of 35% protein, 35% carbohydrate, and 30% fat. That's somehow more calories/day than I would expect for a "fasting day", and fairly restrictive over-all. I'd be curious to hear how these compare to someone on the 1350/1700 kcal/day diet 7 days a week. > Extending beyond 4-weeks reduces compliance and may be overly excessive for a caloric restriction and 2 day IF and create undue metabolic, physiologic, hormonal, and psychological stress in the study participants. Also something I was wondering, the repeated emphasis on short-term benefits has me wonder how the participants did after the trial. Does it do much good if you drop more but it bounces back? > Isagenix International, LLC (Gilbert, AZ, USA) provided all meal replacement shakes, bars, beverages, and supplements. > Whole Blend IsaLean® Shakes, Cleanse for Life®, Ionix® Supreme, Collagen Bone Broth, AMPED™ Hydrate, Harvest/Whey Thins™, IsaDelight® Chocolates, > This study was supported by a grant (IRB#: 1911–859) from Isagenix International, LLC > P.J.A. (the primary author) is a member of the scientific advisory board at Isagenix International LLC, the study’s sponsor. E.G. and A.E.M. are employed by Isagenix International LLC. Ok, that reads as very suspect, now.

bena 4y ago
Assuming 2000 kcal/day is the normal amount blah blah blah. For men, they are running a 300 kcal deficit for 5 days and 1500 kcal deficit for the other two. For a total of 4500 kcal per week. Or losing about a pound and a half. Now, seeing as this is for overweight people, it's likely to be even more. As it takes more calories per day to maintain higher weights. So if the person's maintenance is about 3000 kcal/day, that's going to be a deficit of roughly 11,500 kcal per week. Which is close to 4 pounds. But then again, restricting yourself to just 2000 kcal/day would have you lose about a pound and a half per week. Because, when you are very overweight, lots of things work.
saargrin 4y ago
1700 kcal a day for male is already pretty high calorie deficit even without any physical activity

ramesh31 4y ago

Eating less food causes more weight loss. Astounding.

bhaney 4y ago

> Given the same energy intake > During fasting days, participants fasting for one day/week were allowed to consume 400 Kcal/day, while participants fasting for two consecutive days were allowed 500 Kcal/day. During non-fasting days the dietary regimen provided 1350 and 1700 kcals/day for women and men, respectively That seems like the first claim is just untrue and the 2-day-fasters are consuming fewer calories overall? If all the non-fasting days are the same for both groups like this says, then the 2-day-fasting men are consuming 1100 fewer calories per week (and 750 fewer for women). Even if intermittent fasting did nothing at all, I would expect that extra calorie deficit to result in more weight loss.

tgtweak 4y ago
1700kcals/day is already in diet territory for an overweight male, honestly. I think that the logic of giving even less to those fasting is pretty obvious that it would lead to more weight loss. You can read the full study here, but it seems to confirm a caloric defecit on the IF2 and IF group vs control. https://nutritionj.biomedcentral.com/track/pdf/10.1186/s12937-022-00790-0.pdf https://nutritionj.biomedcentral.com/track/pdf/10.1186/s1293... ... IF1-P, 9058±692 kcals/week vs. IF2-P, 8389±438 kcals/week A proper methodology would be to have all 3 groups consume the same 7-day baseline diet for 2 weeks, then switch into the IF groups and monitor increases in rate-of-change for body weight vs net body weight difference before/after. There should also be similar caloric input for all groups before and after program to see if there is actually an additional benefit to intermittent fasting vs caloric input reduction.

DoreenMichele 4y ago

The reason why intermittent fasting works is that it is associated with increased oxidation of fatty acids (lipolysis) and ketone body formation (ketogenesis), activated cell-signaling pathways (insulin sensitivity, reduced inflammation, autophagy), and preservation of lean body mass, known as “metabolic switching”. The interesting fact however is that typically, these mechanisms are not fully activated until at least 24 hours of fasting. Well, this sounds to me like they know it has an effect but they don't actually know the full story on why it works.

WithinReason 4y ago
That's when you consume your glycogen stores
- DoreenMichele 4y ago
  Yeah, but my point is that IF is generally under 24 hours, yet has an effect. So they seem to not have a good explanation for why IF helps given that their hypothesis fits what we know happens after the 24 hour mark and you aren't doing that. "We know it works because after 24 hours, X happens" does not explain why it works when you aren't hitting that mark. Sorry.

Judderman 4y ago

edmcnulty101 4y ago

Eat 500cals for two days. I'll just be fat.

ishjoh 4y ago
I tried fasting as well. Every Sunday I would limit myself to about 400cals. I was miserable and mean. It wasn't a good strategy for me. I'm having a lot more success with a changed way of life, but to do that I also needed the support of those around me. In particular I needed to get my wife on board to help me make better food choices and to have healthy choices at dinner time. She has been incredible and very supportive. Once that shifted into place all the pieces came together. What's interesting is that I almost needed all of them in place to really start seeing the changes I wanted. What worked for me: I try and walk at least 30 mins everyday. I track my activity using an apple watch. I track what I eat since I don't really know the macronutrients in foods or the calories (lose it app, paid subscription). Before I would just eat until I felt full. What's really interesting is that eating more of the right things I feel just as full but it's many fewer calories and a much better macronutrient breakdown. I try and get a lot more protein in my diet. I try and drink at least 3L of water, I think this helps me to not feel hungry as well. I've been at this for just about 2 months now and I feel and look much better than I have in a long time. I really think that these changes are ones that I can stick with for the rest of my life.
- edmcnulty101 4y ago
  Sounds like a lot of work compared to just being fat. ;)

m3kw9 4y ago

Dinner at 7 and then breakfast at 7 m, aren’t most people intermittent fasting?

shaicoleman 4y ago

I found that OMAD (one meal a day) works well for me. I've been consistently losing 1-2kg per month on it, and it's something I feel I could sustain forever.

playingalong 4y ago
How do "losing 1-2kg per month" and "forever" play together?
- shaicoleman 4y ago
  OMAD can be tweaked for stable weight - e.g. by increasing the eating window from 1 hour to 2 hours, by eating more, or by adding an extra meal once in a while. Weight loss slowed down naturally once I've reached a healthy weight range.

davman 4y ago

If someone can make it so it doesn't feel like I can no longer think or move any muscles or start sweating if I go more than about 3 hours without eating, then I'm on board! Also hunger pangs. Please no.

fredrikholm 4y ago
You are describing hypoglycemia. Are you often thirsty, tired, hangry? Pee a lot at night? If so, it might be a good idea to go and check your blood sugar.
- davman 4y ago
  Yeah unfortunately I’ve had these symptoms throughout my life, have been regularly checked for diabetes but no dice. My dad has type 1 so we recognised my symptoms, but apparently it isn’t diabetes.
  - fredrikholm 4y ago
    I hope its manageable! Glad to hear that it isn't diabetes at least. Wife is T1, so whenever I hear people describe hyper/hypoglycemia I can't help but to ask.
    - davman 4y ago
      Appreciate your concern! :) Apparently hypoglycemia without diabetes is a thing (you prompted me to google), so I've ordered a blood sugar monitor and I'll do tracking for a week or two with a fast.

deanc 4y ago

Interestingly fasting which induces ketosis, has been shown to reduce cyst growth in rats with Polycistic Kidney Disease (PKD). A human trial is ongoing.

hgazx 4y ago

Why is it called fasting when you’re allowed to eat 500 kcal ? I would’ve assumed it meant 0 cal

sudden_dystopia 4y ago

As someone that intermittently fasts everyday, I don’t think weight loss has anything to do with the actual fasting, I think it just helps you control when you eat and helps you meet a caloric deficit. I do enjoy the clarity of mind that I feel when I don’t eat for 16-18 hours though.

martin_a 4y ago

You can stop reading here: > a group of 20 participants That is unscientific and the results are anecdotal at best.