33 ms·
2022 Amish Population Profile
- missingcolours 4y ago> The North American Amish population grew by an estimated 195,710 since 2000, increasing from approximately 177,910 in 2000 to 373,620 in 2022, an increase of 110 percent. Wow... for context, compare to the fact that (at least according to the decennial census) the white population of the US actually decreased from 2010-2020.
- stevenjgarner 4y agoIt's going to be challenging to teach them Rust.
- biomcgary 4y agoThey are probably not familiar with rust. My understanding is that they favor batteries-included languages.
- downvotetruth 4y agoPennsylvanian Dutch is more likely since they shun fancy things like electricity. https://ohiosamishcountry.com/articles/amish-faqs https://ohiosamishcountry.com/articles/amish-faqs But, the concatenated type names deep in any inheritance hierarchy would tend to be a scary sight (there be dragons) in agglutinative languages.
- 2143 4y agoThey better stay away from Electron apps then. But seriously, they shun electricity‽
- Shared404 4y agoYep, to an extent! Saw this on HN once: https://kk.org/thetechnium/amish-hackers-a/ https://kk.org/thetechnium/amish-hackers-a/
- mushbino 4y agoSome do, some don't. Some of my relatives still wear all of the dress, have most of the customs, and live very simple lives but drive cars and use electricity. Some look exactly like you or or I but still have a lot of the cultural values. Other much more distant relatives in nearby communities don't use electricity or any modern technology and speak mostly Pennsylvania Dutch.
- zdragnar 4y agoI live in the upper midwest, and there's quite a few communities here. Those that I have visited have one phone (in a booth by the road in front of someone's house) that the whole community uses. A wood working shop has a diesel engine to occasionally run air compressors, which in turn operate a lot of the larger tools for making lumber. A horse could do the job on a treadmill [1], but since the result is the same, they don't make the animal do the pointless work when they already get plenty of exercise. No cars, no electricity, though they'll hire a car when people need to get medical treatment or travel long distances to visit relatives. It's not about not using technology, so much as it is not having technology in your daily life that doesn't bring you closer to God. This particular group even uses safety pins instead of buttons in their clothes, since buttons are usually shiny or patterned with designs, which are can be a temptation of vanity. It's a conscious decision to give up a modern convenience in exchange for being spiritually healthier. Try spending a winter in a place without electricity, where your life depends on keeping a wood fired stove going (preferably a high efficiency model that doesn't produce a lot of smoke or particulates), and you start to appreciate the true amount of work that gas heating saves you. It does make you wonder, though, if the effort saved has allowed you to actually live a richer life. That is what they live every day, in all aspects. More work and fewer conveniences, but fewer distractions from what they value most. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GE-qMwFPGlE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GE-qMwFPGlE
- 4y ago
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- im3w1l 4y ago
- shrubble 4y agoIf the "double every 20 years" holds, it means 6 million or so Amish by 2100.
- kadoban 4y ago> If the "double every 20 years" holds, it means 6 million or so Amish by 2100. Spoiler: it doesn't hold. Extrapolating population numbers like that is extremely rarely correct.
- klipt 4y agoIt's funny how atheists believe in evolution in theory, but fervently religious groups like this are the ones winning at evolution in practice. My theory is having kids is just really hard work, but a deeply ingrained religious belief that children are a blessing from God helps groups like the Amish push forward with it anyway.
- lalaland1125 4y agoEvolution isn't a moral theory. Evolution only makes predictions about reality, it doesn't tell you what is more moral or what you should do
- klipt 4y agoSure, but it's literally the definition of evolutionary fitness that having more kids makes you more evolutionarily fit. Nobody said fitness implies morality. But the Amish by definition have higher evolutionary fitness than average Americans.
- jb_gericke 4y agoI think the greater human population is doing just fine - almost exclusively due to scientific and technological advancements. (https://lighthouse.mq.edu.au/article/why-has-the-world-population-grown-so-much-in-the-past-century https://lighthouse.mq.edu.au/article/why-has-the-world-popul...)
- tresqotheq 4y ago> scientific and technological advancements. sure, it does not matter that things that we pay for and consume ends up having a million things that makes us sick in multiple ways, and if you are in some developing nation, you would be hard pressed to find food to feed your babies that is not laced with some kind of harmful pesticides or fertilizer, but hey, we can always pay more in healthcare to extend our diseased misery. We are doing just fine, in the mean while, there are more and more existential threats as the day progress, but hey, say it with me, we are JUST.DOING.FINE.
- gostsamo 4y agoEvolution does not preclude such strategy as free riding. The amish community takes advantage from the advances of civilization like medicine, and infrastructure while they don't contribute to it. This is okay while the larger world accepts them or while the larger world exists to shield them from the consequences of their omissions. This does not mean that they win in evolution. Winning is if you can adapt every time the environment changes, which is still to be seen.
- BurningFrog 4y agoThe future belongs to those who multiply. At the moment, that looks like Amish, Muslims, and Elon Musk. The population who remain childless to not add to the population burden of the planet will become irrelevant. I find that sad, since I really like several of them...
- klipt 4y ago> and Elon Musk No, Musk lacks something the Amish and Muslims have: continuity. Amish children are likely to remain Amish. Musk may have 20 kids but those kids will probably have the American average of 1.5 kids each and his descendents will limit to 0 like everyone else in his culture.
- Alt-F4 4y ago>and his descendents will limit to 0 like everyone else in his culture. What does this mean? Are you saying the human population of the universe will drop to 0? If so, why mention "his culture"?
- Asraelite 4y ago> (at least according to the decennial census) the white population of the US actually decreased from 2010-2020. How exactly is race categorized in that census? I'm just wondering if this is partly due to descendants of mixed couples not classifying themselves as white.
- justsomeguy123 4y ago> Note: Population estimates for 2022 were calculated using a variety of sources including Raber’s New American Almanac, reports by correspondents in Die Botschaft, The Budget, and The Diary, settlement directories, regional newsletters, and settlement informants. The data includes all Amish groups that use horse-and-buggy transportation, but excludes car-driving groups such as the Beachy Amish and Amish Mennonites. > > To cite this page: “Amish Population Profile, 2022.” Young Center for Anabaptist and Pietist Studies, Elizabethtown College. http://groups.etown.edu/amishstudies/statistics/amish-population-profile-2022 http://groups.etown.edu/amishstudies/statistics/amish-popula.... Well, it's hard to cite a page where somebody manually estimated some numbers from various sources without at least providing a table to see what the individual estimates were so at least some errors can be corrected. But, interesting factoids.
- h0l0cube 4y ago> The primary forces driving the growth are sizable nuclear families (five or more children on average) and an average retention rate (Amish children who join the church as young adults) of 85 percent or more. I used to assume it was close to 100%. Where are these 15% of people who leave the settlements as adults?
- _delirium 4y agoThe 85% number seems to have been quoted for at least a decade or so, cited in some cases I can find to a 2013 book [1]. Here's a summary via a 2019 open-access book chapter about leaving the Amish [2]: > Contrary to the persistent myth that they are dying out, the Amish population in North America continues to grow at a rapid pace. Numbering over 330,000 in thirty-one states and four Canadian provinces, the Amish population doubles every twenty years (Young Center 2018; Donnermeyer et al. 2013). While over 60 percent of the Amish still reside in Pennsylvania, Ohio, and Indiana, home to the four largest Amish settlements, population pressures are increasingly resulting in out-migration to areas where land prices are more affordable. Because the Amish do not actively seek converts, this population surge is a result of two major forces—large family sizes and a high retention rate. Though family size differs by affiliation, Amish families still average approximately five children. At the same time, the retention rate is at an all-time high. Fully 85 percent of Amish youth get down on their knees in front of their congregation and pledge to uphold the Ordnung, or unwritten code of conduct, of their local church district (Kraybill, Johnson-Weiner, and Nolt 2013). [1] Kraybill, D.B., Johnson-Weiner, K.M., and Nolt, S.M. (2013). The Amish. The Johns Hopkins University Press. [2] McConnell, D.L. (2019). Leaving the Amish. In: Handbook of Leaving Religion, ed. D. Enstedt, G. Larsson, T. Mantsinen, pp. 154-163. https://doi.org/10.1163/9789004331471_013 https://doi.org/10.1163/9789004331471_013
- h0l0cube 4y agoI'm not based in the US, so I'm wondering whether people meet ex-Amish in the general course of their lives? Do they go on to lead otherwise ordinary modern lives and have office jobs?
- 4y ago
- 2Gkashmiri 4y ago
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- xupybd 4y agoSometimes I think about the Amish lifestyle and I'm drawn to it. No doubt the reality of hard work would soon hit me in the face if I ever tried it. Still working our doors and living the simple life certainly sounds freeing. I say this as I take a short break from coding on the weekend and thinking about how I could automate folding the washing with a homemade robot. So maybe it's not for me...
- bigDinosaur 4y agoIt's not really all that simple, it's likely rigidly conformist, and it's totally a grass is greener on the HDR profile than IRL situation. Perhaps you can find a job or hobby working with cool modern technology while spending much more time outdoors?
- rendall 4y ago> No doubt the reality of hard work would soon hit me in the face if I ever tried it. Also the learning of a new language, the idea that education past 8th grade is "pride", the shunning as social control, the hierarchy of which you will be at the bottom, plus the allegations in some communities of physical and sexual abuse. Among other adjustments. I say this as someone who felt the same longing until I looked into what it would actually entail.
- jquery 4y ago“Allegations” is being extremely charitable.
- troad 4y agoAs a gay man, it's always striking when I hear comments like this (or positive comments about living in conservative theocracies, such as the Gulf states). Must be nice to be free to choose civilisations purely on esthetics. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inNBpizpZkE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inNBpizpZkE
- xupybd 4y agoIf it's any consultation I already live in accordance with very strict religious restrictions so the only difference for me would be the shunning of technology. The Gulf states however I don't think would be safe for me due to my religion. I'm also a firm believer that while communities should be free to be as exclusive as they want, nations should be as inclusive as possible.
- lalaland1125 4y agoContraceptives are causing the biggest evolutionary pressure mankind has ever faced. Groups like the Amish who want to have kids have a ton while the secular population decreases.
- lotsofpulp 4y agoAlso, women’s financial independence and general increase in their freedom. I wonder if Amish women are completely free to decide how many kids they want.
- xyzzyz 4y agoThey probably aren’t, and neither are Amish men.
- lotsofpulp 4y agoMen are physically more powerful than women, I think how many children a man wants is much more in the man’s control than how many kids a woman wants.
- mantas 4y agoWoman is the gatekeeper, unless you want include rape-y options. But then the more traditional society is, the child raising is on women. And it’s women who raise next generation of men…
- lotsofpulp 4y agoYes, I do not think women had complete agency in deciding to have 5+ kids each. Or even 4. And it is probably still the same case for many around the world. Kind of like this scene: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-yUafzOXHPE https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-yUafzOXHPE
- mantas 4y ago
- echoradio 4y agoI find the Amish’s perspective on technology interesting. Especially now, I respect the lengths they have gone through to preserve community over expediency. I was particularly intrigued by “The Amish seek to master technology rather than become its slave.” I love the conveniences tech offers, but I also worry about the digital habits that have turned into unhealthy addictions. Where in the technological progression did we tipped from technology being a tool to being a handcuff. Broadband? Wi-Fi? Smartphones? Given the deep ties to tech here on HN, I am curious to know if there are others here who have similar thoughts.
- aero142 4y agoI think it will be viewed as a common vice like alcohol and gambling. I wonder if we will see something like a temperance movement.
- inglor_cz 4y agoAn intriguing question: could a temperance movement against digital services organize itself offline? Most, if not all, movements right now coalesce online. Perhaps people already forgot how to do this in the real world, much like they forgot how to navigate with paper maps.
- schroeding 4y agoAnd could they even still communicate effectively? Except landline and snail mail, what kind of possibilities are there left to exchange / propagate messages? Pagers are (more or less) dead. Telegrams are dead. Fax is (more or less) dead. Newspapers are dying. Amateur Radio, Flyers and public squares would still work, though.
- mgdlbp 4y agoAPAs and letterzines?
- Broken_Hippo 4y ago
- oldgregg 4y agoI just joined an experimental crypto-Amish community near Austin. I work in blockchain, so all about decentralized community. We're honest about how technology is making all of us craaaazy. No porn here but we get to use solar and arduino to feed the chickens. Grew up in the city but really surprised I really don't miss that shit.
- mantas 4y agoInteresting. Do you mind to point to any blogs or articles about it?
- adrianN 4y agoIs it crypto-"Amish", because you're religious, or is that just code for "we're critical of technology"?
- oldgregg 4y agoBasic christian/decentralization stuff
- petesergeant 4y ago> crypto-Amish Crypto-Amish like crypto-Judaism[0] or Amish people who believe in magical internet money? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crypto-Judaism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crypto-Judaism
- 4y ago
- legitster 4y agoI've been told that part of the explosion of Amish is that more than ever are coming back from Rumspringa than before. Their actual fertility hasn't changed any - what's changed is that since the 80s the outside world has become more phone-obsessed zombies. We've crossed some sort of technological Rubicon where our technology has become less appealing to primitive people.
- trixie_ 4y agoCan you imagine time traveling from 1990 to 2020? Seeing every single person, even children, glued to a screen in their hand. It’d feel freaky and dystopian.
- powerhour 4y agoI remember a whole lot of people glued to their Walkmans, books, newspapers, and when at home TVs. Screens are different (everything is different) but not so much that it would be shocking, I think.
- trixie_ 4y agoYou think if you went back to 1990 you'd see all the kids engrossed in their walkmans, books and newspapers like zombies?
- jcpst 4y agoInteresting. I have memories of seeing them on the highway, but never considered they were one in a million.
- PebblesRox 4y agoMy uncle is self-employed as a driver for the Amish. My aunt describes him as the “Amish Uber,” since his customers will call him up on the phone to schedule trips. I’m not sure if this is the case for all Amish communities, but in our area at least they do not own cars but will hire someone to drive them when the situation calls for it, such as when they’re attending a wedding or other event that’s far enough away to make buggy-driving impractical.
- sofixa 4y agoI thought Amish people can't use any technology, including phones?
- mastazi 4y agoThey can use tech in some circumstances, and different Amish communities will have different standards[1]. Some of them may own cars and may even use smartphones or computers, in some specific cases and with limitations (e.g. they would install content blockers on their phones)[2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish#Use_of_technology_by_different_affiliations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish#Use_of_technology_by_dif... [2] smartphones are discussed in episode 4 of this web series, and "Amish drivers" in episode 3 https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEyPgwIPkHo7lOk-72-tXJ-NjahfkNF_r https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEyPgwIPkHo7lOk-72-tX...
- carpenecopinum 4y agoEach community decides among themselves which technologies will help them strengthen their community rather than weaken it and thus be allowed to use. That's how you end up with things like horse-drawn carriages with electric lighting or even Amish that use computers for work.
- least 4y ago> That's how you end up with things like horse-drawn carriages with electric lighting They still must follow the law of the land, so things like this are often out of necessity rather than any sort of communal inclination.
- silisili 4y agoMy respect for the Amish is huge. I grew up not far from a few rather large settlements. The breadth of knowledge they have, as a group at least, is impressive. You could buy handmade furniture from them. And cheese. You're doing yourself a disservice if you've never tried an Amish cheese. And, they built my mother's house. A truck drove them in and picked them up each day. Just watching their work and attention to detail was something else. If nothing else, they're a very self sustaining population.
- marricks 4y ago> attention to detail There’s so much respect for communities with attention to detail and specific cultures: Amish, German, Japanese in particular. It’s often spun as something specific to that community which “America” or “the UK” has lost. But… it seems more like what it reflects is a long established community of people who are treated well, like there jobs, and had the opportunity to do it for generations. That turns it from a “unique to X culture” to idealize to just making you wonder what that level of expertise isn’t more commonly seen in the craftsmanship of our daily lives.
- loonster 4y agoInteresting that those are all high trust societies. Im left wondering if itis the chicken or the egg?
- mastazi 4y agoYoutuber Peter Santenello made a web series about the Amish last year. I found it really interesting: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEyPgwIPkHo7lOk-72-tXJ-NjahfkNF_r https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEyPgwIPkHo7lOk-72-tX...
- jl6 4y agoI’m sorry to say my first exposure to the Amish was through Weird Al’s Amish Paradise, which I now recognise has some unfairly unflattering passages. I still wouldn’t endorse the bible-based aspects of the Amish lifestyle, but I see that their approach to technology isn’t all that irrational. They are taking a very methodical approach to what we might call dependency management. They seek independence, and they realize how dependence and risk can arise from the deep supply chains inherent in technology. Hence they do not reject electricity outright, but do reject grid connections. Their approach is also to thoroughly impact assess technology on their community. They assess holistically whether a technology will help or hinder them, in a social as well as economic sense. I think we could learn some things from the Amish when tempted to chase new tech.
- pentagrama 4y agoInteresting, I didn't know about the Amish. There are communities like the Amish but without the religious beliefs? I will be interested to join, but replace the religion with some secular spiritual exploration.
- RajT88 4y agoI might set about researching communes in the US. There's some that are quite well run. I wish I could find the link now, there was one in Appalachia which was doing quite well some years back. While it doesn't count as non-religious, the Hutterites are quite interesting, as they are from another branch of the Anabaptist faith. And growing too, at a time where the Amish don't seem to be!
- Thorrez 4y agoThe article says the Amish are doubling in population every 20 years.
- _ph_ 4y agoWhenever they come up, I find the Amish highly faszinating, and looking at the comments here, I don't seem to be alone in this. They look as if they found their perfect life style and are happy with that. If they are, I can congratulate them and wish them all the best moving forward. However, after some thinking, I come to the conlusion, that either all the reporting is one sided positive about it or at least, the price they pay for what they achieved is a bit underreported. And I don't mean like missing out on Netflix, though a lot of people would already consider this a price that they would have to pay. I think of it more on a personal level with respect to social structures and freedom. Both human history and personal experience tells me that their communities work - if they work as frictionless as it might appear - only with a very rigid set of rules. Which of course impact the personal freedom significantly. We don't know how much social pressure is needed to uphold the structure, how much social force even. This is by no means meant as a criticism of the Amish - without talking personally to them I would't dare to critize them from far away[1] - but rather of the reporting which seems to paint things in a more idyllic way than reality might be. On a technical level, it certainly helps that Pennsylvenia seems to be a great place for their life style and one key element to their stabilty might be, that members who want to live differently can litterally walk away as "the rest of the US" is just a few miles away. Which also should be considered when looking at them as a possible "role model" for all: they do gain a lot of benefits from living near people who fully embrace the high tech life style, e.g. when needing medical help. Again, not a critique, just as a point of consideration. But in one sense they should serve the rest of us as a rule model: they show that every one can and should decide for themselves how to live in this modern world. One might not shun technology completely, but even if it means using the smartphone and the internet more responsibly, that could help people a lot. We need to be a bit more concious in our decisions, however they end out to be. [1]: fun fact, if I ever make it to Pennsylvania, I might well be able to talk to them. As far as I have learned, Pennsylvania Dutch is basically the regional German dialect "Pfälzisch". Which is basically the region me and my family comes from. So while I don't speak it normally, I can perfectly well unterstand it, and would quickly be fluent in it :)
- nbzso 4y agoI always had a suspicion that the Amish people were visited by someone from the future. They had a glance and sad NO. :)
- peteradio 4y agoIn a sense they see their future in real time and pick and choose, no time travel necessary!
- RickJWagner 4y agoThe crazier the world gets, the more the Amish lifestyle seems sensible to me. It's an election year. I wonder if they take long-term visitors....
- kakariko 4y ago