12 ms·

Python is Actually Portable

291 points by bwidlar 4y ago

topnde 4y ago
Hey, I am a JS dev and don't know a lot about python. Can someone ELI5 what is going on here? Thanks.
- JrProgrammer 4y ago
  I think what is happening here is that the python interpreter can be used as an executable. This way you don't have to install python on the host machine and can carry your programs on a USB stick for example. Correct me if I'm wrong
- jabbany 4y ago
  The author compiled the Python interpreter as an Actually Portable Executable (APE) file. APE files (usually using a `.com` extension) are single executable files that can be run natively on many major operating systems. Kind of a "polyglot" executable file that most major operating systems just understand natively. The implication is that you can now package Python code as a single file that can be directly run regardless of the operating system the user is on. No installers, no dependencies on what must already be installed, no separate downloads for different operating systems. Just one single file, click and run.
- keithalewis 4y ago
  Python is not slow enough. You can now give people a collection of bits that will run python even slower on multiple architectures. As a bonus, you cannot use any of the C packages like numpy or pandas that might cause it to run faster.
ahgamut 4y ago
Request to change the title to "Python is Actually Portable", as the blog post describes what I did to port Python 2.7/3.6 to Cosmopolitan Libc. Edit: thank you @dang! That was super fast!
- rpdillon 4y ago
  Agreed. "actually portable" carries special significance in the context of αcτµαlly pδrταblε εxεcµταblε.
  - fieryskiff11 4y ago
    is there some background as to why it's written with epsilons, etc?
    - cristoperb 4y ago
      Justine gives a brief explanation in this thread from last year: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26276084 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26276084
      - _ZeD_ 4y ago
        So just to upset greeks?
        marssaxman 4y ago
        Not just Greeks - the irritation is portable across all nationalities.
      - ozguroz 4y ago
        It’s a rabbit hole once you go through that link :)
kristianp 4y ago
What's python.com, and what does "python.com APE" mean? Is python.com an executable that runs on multiple OSs? Also why is the flask demo so slow? I think some explanations might be helpful. I'm familiar with python, but not cosmopolitan libc.
- truffdog 4y ago
  Check this out- https://justine.lol/ape.html https://justine.lol/ape.html
- ahgamut 4y ago
  Cosmopolitan Libc allows you to build programs that run on six operating systems (Linux, Mac, Windows, FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD). I ported Python 2.7.18 and 3.6.14 to build on Cosmopolitan Libc because I wanted to have the same Python executable and my scripts with me everywhere :) I've updated the blog post for context. The flask demo is unnaturally slow because my old computer is slow (running python tests in the background). plus I was using `_dummy_thread` Python3.6's pure-python threads implementation.
  - kristianp 4y ago
    Thanks for the info, Cosmopolitan Libc looks like a cool project.
    - ActorNightly 4y ago
      Yep, and author is a HN user https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=jart https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=jart Her comment history is full of good info about the project.
      - jart 4y ago
        /me waves
- nodja 4y ago
  APE stands for Actually Portable Executable, an executable file that can run on the major platforms unmodified (windows/linux/mac/etc.)
hit8run 4y ago
Fits on every usb drive lol
agiacalone 4y ago
I can't help but feel this will be either a useless toy or an absolutely horrific malicious software injector.
- agiacalone 4y ago
  Downvote, eh? Okay then. > Cosmopolitan Libc does come with some tradeoffs as well > (static compilation, C codebases, no multithreading > (Update 2022-07-27:, no multithreading yet, > the pthreads API takes a while to fill Toy. > Regarding python packages with C extensions, the build > process for adding them to the APE is rather unwieldy > (2022-07-27 adding C extensions to the APE is much more > elegant now because of the Cosmopolitan monorepo Horrific malware. Unchecked C (even libsafe) is bad. Edit: Nevermind that each app using this software will need to be individually updated every time a new security patch for Python comes out.
  - baq 4y ago
    while you aren't wrong, this is exactly the same as any statically built software (e.g. all of go) and people still build software this way.
  - krageon 4y ago
    The downvotes are because you're not really adding anything (I think). This just reads as empty complaining. You have an edited-in point that isn't widely seen as an issue (it is the case, but why do you think it's bad?). That makes it tedious to read, not very stimulating.
  - jart 4y ago
    If you're concerned about security, then you can use pledge.com to sandbox python.com https://justine.lol/pledge/ https://justine.lol/pledge/
- ahgamut 4y ago
  I wanted Python to work across at least Windows/Linux because I have a bunch of these tiny scripts that I keep running everywhere. (For example, I always use `python.com -m http.server` when I want to share files in the local network without SSH). Cosmopolitan Libc made it easy for me to run my scripts across Linux/Windows and more, and the running scripts can be accessed via a browser GUI, which makes it very convenient if someone not use to CLI has to monitor what is going on. Plus I can update my scripts any time by just adding them to the executable via a `zip` command. Toys are still fun to play with :)
buster 4y ago
I'm truely impressed. I don't know if this will become useful in real software, because you'll likely have dependencies (which in turn depend on OS features) pretty fast. But nevertheless, one of the coolest projects out there!
- davidshepherd7 4y ago
  Any use of OS features by calling functions in the standard library should work though, right? I think it's only dependencies that contain C code that would need further changes. I think you would have to recompile then with cosmopolitan libc.
niux 4y ago
Has anybody managed to compile the executable?
- btach 4y ago
  Yes. I initially ran into binfmt_misc issues, did a bit of reading on Justine's github repo for Cosmopolitan and found it can be an issue, especially if you have WINE installed. Once I disabled it systemctl stop systemd-binfmt" on Manjaro I just followed the directions. build/bootstrap/make.com -j$(nproc) o//third_party/python/python.com I tested it on Win10, MacOS Monterey, and Linux Manjaro (built on MacOS and Linux), all worked on all platforms.
malkia 4y ago
madness....
Uptrenda 4y ago
Holy shit, this is frigging cool. Python is my language of choice and I'm amazed at the result here. Wow, even the socket implementation works. Python 3.6.14+ (Actually Portable Python) [GCC 9.2.0] on cosmo Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. >>: print("hello world") hello world >>: import asyncio Traceback (most recent call last): File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module> ModuleNotFoundError: No module named 'asyncio' >>: import socket >>: s = socket.socket(socket.AF_INET, socket.SOCK_STREAM) >>: s.connect(("www.google.com", 80)) >>: s <socket.socket fd=3, family=AddressFamily.AF_INET, type=SocketKind.SOCK_STREAM, proto=0, laddr=('192.168.21.19', 63468), raddr=('142.250.70.196', 80)> This work is going to be of interest to a lot of Python devs! Edit: here's the link to the file: https://justine.lol/ftrace/python.com https://justine.lol/ftrace/python.com Download it and see if it will run on your OS. I'm getting the standard prompt on every OS so far. On Windows you just type python.com. On Mac OS X I had to chmod +x, allow it in security settings, and use bash -c './hello.com' to execute it. Simple chmod +x python.com; ./python.com on Linux.
- flohofwoe 4y ago
  ...in addition, on my ARM Mac I had to start the program like this, otherwise there's an "exec format error": arch -x86_64 ./python.com
  - woodrowbarlow 4y ago
    the APE format and cosmo libc provide operating system portability, not instruction set portability.
- Abishek_Muthian 4y ago
  Does this mean I can build portable Python applications like I do with Go without having to worry about the glibc version on the running machine in case I had used CGO?
Uptrenda 4y ago
I'm thinking this python.com file would be so, so useful for DevOs / admin tasks. Use it as a lightweight binary to run Python scripts for all platforms. Would probably be very useful for setup / installation scripts or install commands.
- ahgamut 4y ago
  Yup, this is one big reason why I wanted Python to be Actually Portable -- I have a bunch of tiny scripts that are slightly complex for sh (some of them were Windows CMD .BAT files lol) which I like to use everywhere. By building Python with Cosmopolitan Libc, I can take a single binary and my scripts with me! I just add my scripts into the APE ZIP store via `zip -r ./python.com ./.python/*.py` and it just works. I only have VMs now, but a while ago I had Debian 10/Fedora 35/Windows 10/FreeBSD 13 all on the same network, and it was super convenient to have the same script/executable work everywhere.
baq 4y ago
Python's biggest issue - distribution - solved without any containerization. once this gets threads, TLS and a recent Python version, I can see it becoming a non-toy fast. well done!
- bamboozled 4y ago
  It's solved by using Go, 6 years ago.
  - Epa095 4y ago
    Go builds a single binary for both Linux, Windows and osx?
    - oflebbe 4y ago
      it builds single binaries even for other processors like arm, arm64.
      - estebank 4y ago
        One of us is confused, and it very well might be me and GP, but I thought that Go can cross-compile to other platforms (different OS and arch combinations), but cannot produce (at least by default?) a single binary that can run on multiple platforms, like this article does.
        ReactiveJelly 4y ago
        Yeah Go does not do that. I don't think any lang does I think it's pretty much a unique feature of APE, because APE binaries modify their own code after the first run to nativize themselves. (Right? Or do the new versions work different?) I can't tell if my disdain for this is real (Since I really like having my exes read-only and having a consistent hash) or just sublimated envy (Since most desktops will in practice have every file marked as read-write, and if it works it's not stupid)
    - 4y ago
kaba0 4y ago
APE is cool, but other than it being a bar trick I fail to see much usage out of it. Especially in case of an interpreter - like, just have the native version installed on the target OS.
- baq 4y ago
  > just have the native version installed on the target OS this is literally the problem
  - wokwokwok 4y ago
    How is it the solution? End user applications, sure… but the raw python interpreter? If you want it, you have to install it. If you want to install it, you go to python.org and install it. This solves… a headache for the maintainers, having to build multiple packages? Not having it installed is definitely not solved by this. Bundling python packages into a single binary is definitely not solved by this.
    - baq 4y ago
      it isn't the solution, but it is a solution. it might be the solution for a particular subset of tools, which is still great, because it usually was a PITA even for those constrained use cases.
    - ElectricalUnion 4y ago
      > End user applications, sure… but the raw python interpreter? If you want it, you have to install it. If you want to install it, you go to python.org and install it. If you want just the raw python interpreter, you're not the end user? > Not having it installed is definitely not solved by this. But not having to install it is the point? > Bundling python packages into a single binary is definitely not solved by this. It is? There's even a working example in the article? mkdir -p Lib/site-packages # specify python version to pip if necessary /usr/bin/python2 -m pip download flask -t . # start "build" cp ./python.com ./my-release.com printf '%s\n' '-m' >./.args printf '%s\n' 'my_module_name' >>./.args # wheels are just ZIPs, use unzip if pip complains ./python.com -m pip install flask*.whl -t ./Lib/site-packages ./zip.com -qr ./my-release.com ./Lib/site-packages/ ./zip.com ./my-release.com ./.args # optional cleanup rm -rf ./*.whl ./Lib/site-packages/ ./my-release.com
bondant 4y ago
Does it work with tkinter? So I can have a GUI for every OS in a single executable ?
- ptspts 4y ago
  Not yet, because Tk itself hasn't been ported to Cosmopolitan Libc yet.
codedokode 4y ago
This APE format is not "write once run anywhere", because it targets a specific architectrure (64-bit x86) and won't run on other architectures. Just a toy format and I see no use for it. What we need instead is better support in Linux for legacy Linux and Windows applications so that Linux could run any proprietary software written for it or for Windows (because there are no sources for it and it cannot be recompiled). Today it is not so: for example, very old Firefox builds don't run or crash on modern Linux.
- spyremeown 4y ago
  > Just a toy format and I see no use for it. Can you see how the problem that you described in the subsequent paragraph could easily be solved if the applications were compiled in such a format?
  - codedokode 4y ago
    They wouldn't be solved because the problem is that newer versions of shared libraries are not compatible with older applications. There is no problem with ELF or PE formats - ELF is supported on Linux natively, and PE is supported using Wine. APE format doesn't solve the problem with shared libraries changing over time, it dosn't solve the problem that different plaforms provide different APIs (for example, windowing APIs, audio APIs etc).
    - ElectricalUnion 4y ago
      > APE format doesn't solve the problem with shared libraries changing over time APE doesn't use shared libraries at all and it's intended to be statically linked? > APE (...) dosn't solve the problem that different plaforms provide different APIs APE provides the most important POSIX APIs (or shims) for every platform it supports.
- ElectricalUnion 4y ago
  > This APE format is not "write once run anywhere", because it targets a specific architectrure (64-bit x86) and won't run on other architectures. > What we need instead is better support in Linux for legacy Linux and Windows applications (...) Today it is not so: for example, very old Firefox builds don't run or crash on modern Linux. But that is the exact reason why "legacy Linux and Windows" doesn't work, and why APE works: you should target the "specific architectrure" directly instead of hopefully trusting that the entire underlying system is a completly static target. That or using containers/shim layers, those of course bringing such entire underlying system with them.
ingenieroariel 4y ago
Another benefit of cosmo compiled apps is debugging. I won't get into pledge/unveil but check this out: On my compiled python.com I try to open an app with a socket already in use: ./o/third_party/python/python.com run.py --strace SYS 15995 443'293'703 read(3, [u"egister(self, selectors.EVENT_READ)◙◙ "...], 8'192) → 8'192 SYS 15995 443'440'589 close(3) → 0 self.socket.bind(self.server_address) SYS 15995 443'471'588 write(2, u" self.socket.bind(self.server_address"..., 42) → 42 OSError: [Errno 98] EADDRINUSE/98/Address already in use SYS 15995 443'523'517 write(2, u"OSError: [Errno 98] EADDRINUSE/98 /Addres"..., 57) → 57 SYS 15995 443'533'391 getenv("PYTHONINSPECT") → NULL
- Liquid_Fire 4y ago
  Could you clarify how this is better than what you can get with strace without using Cosmopolitan Libc? Or is it just that it's "built in"?
  - ingenieroariel 4y ago
    Just that it is built in I guess, and that cosmo libc places special attention to allowing you to use gdb/strace/memzoom and other debugging tools.
samwillis 4y ago
This is awesome! I like the idea of combining this with pyScript to create portable “GUI” apps. Use this for a local server, open the users browser and point it at it. Websockets/pickle to bridge to a UI written in pyScript. Does cosmopolitan have an API to open the users default browser? I know Python itself does… https://pyscript.net/ https://pyscript.net/
- ahgamut 4y ago
  Nice idea! IIRC redbean has the `LaunchBrowser` function (https://redbean.dev/2.0.html#LaunchBrowser https://redbean.dev/2.0.html#LaunchBrowser) to open the user's default browser, and the `cosmo` module in Python is exactly for providing Cosmopolitan Libc goodies via a Python API. You can probably copy some of the LaunchBrowser code into `third_party/python/Python/cosmomodule.c` and implement the feature you're looking for. Submit a PR :)
intelVISA 4y ago
Wow, an αcτµαlly pδrταblε snαkε. Jart needs to slow down producing so many good hacks -- it's putting the rest of us to shame!

291 points by bwidlar 4y ago

topnde 4y ago

Hey, I am a JS dev and don't know a lot about python. Can someone ELI5 what is going on here? Thanks.

JrProgrammer 4y ago
I think what is happening here is that the python interpreter can be used as an executable. This way you don't have to install python on the host machine and can carry your programs on a USB stick for example. Correct me if I'm wrong
jabbany 4y ago
The author compiled the Python interpreter as an Actually Portable Executable (APE) file. APE files (usually using a `.com` extension) are single executable files that can be run natively on many major operating systems. Kind of a "polyglot" executable file that most major operating systems just understand natively. The implication is that you can now package Python code as a single file that can be directly run regardless of the operating system the user is on. No installers, no dependencies on what must already be installed, no separate downloads for different operating systems. Just one single file, click and run.
keithalewis 4y ago
Python is not slow enough. You can now give people a collection of bits that will run python even slower on multiple architectures. As a bonus, you cannot use any of the C packages like numpy or pandas that might cause it to run faster.

ahgamut 4y ago

Request to change the title to "Python is Actually Portable", as the blog post describes what I did to port Python 2.7/3.6 to Cosmopolitan Libc. Edit: thank you @dang! That was super fast!

rpdillon 4y ago
Agreed. "actually portable" carries special significance in the context of αcτµαlly pδrταblε εxεcµταblε.
- fieryskiff11 4y ago
  is there some background as to why it's written with epsilons, etc?
  - cristoperb 4y ago
    Justine gives a brief explanation in this thread from last year: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26276084 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26276084
    - _ZeD_ 4y ago
      So just to upset greeks?
      - marssaxman 4y ago
        Not just Greeks - the irritation is portable across all nationalities.
    - ozguroz 4y ago
      It’s a rabbit hole once you go through that link :)

kristianp 4y ago

What's python.com, and what does "python.com APE" mean? Is python.com an executable that runs on multiple OSs? Also why is the flask demo so slow? I think some explanations might be helpful. I'm familiar with python, but not cosmopolitan libc.

truffdog 4y ago
Check this out- https://justine.lol/ape.html https://justine.lol/ape.html
ahgamut 4y ago
Cosmopolitan Libc allows you to build programs that run on six operating systems (Linux, Mac, Windows, FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD). I ported Python 2.7.18 and 3.6.14 to build on Cosmopolitan Libc because I wanted to have the same Python executable and my scripts with me everywhere :) I've updated the blog post for context. The flask demo is unnaturally slow because my old computer is slow (running python tests in the background). plus I was using `_dummy_thread` Python3.6's pure-python threads implementation.
- kristianp 4y ago
  Thanks for the info, Cosmopolitan Libc looks like a cool project.
  - ActorNightly 4y ago
    Yep, and author is a HN user https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=jart https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=jart Her comment history is full of good info about the project.
    - jart 4y ago
      /me waves
nodja 4y ago
APE stands for Actually Portable Executable, an executable file that can run on the major platforms unmodified (windows/linux/mac/etc.)

hit8run 4y ago

Fits on every usb drive lol

agiacalone 4y ago

I can't help but feel this will be either a useless toy or an absolutely horrific malicious software injector.

agiacalone 4y ago
Downvote, eh? Okay then. > Cosmopolitan Libc does come with some tradeoffs as well > (static compilation, C codebases, no multithreading > (Update 2022-07-27:, no multithreading yet, > the pthreads API takes a while to fill Toy. > Regarding python packages with C extensions, the build > process for adding them to the APE is rather unwieldy > (2022-07-27 adding C extensions to the APE is much more > elegant now because of the Cosmopolitan monorepo Horrific malware. Unchecked C (even libsafe) is bad. Edit: Nevermind that each app using this software will need to be individually updated every time a new security patch for Python comes out.
- baq 4y ago
  while you aren't wrong, this is exactly the same as any statically built software (e.g. all of go) and people still build software this way.
- krageon 4y ago
  The downvotes are because you're not really adding anything (I think). This just reads as empty complaining. You have an edited-in point that isn't widely seen as an issue (it is the case, but why do you think it's bad?). That makes it tedious to read, not very stimulating.
- jart 4y ago
  If you're concerned about security, then you can use pledge.com to sandbox python.com https://justine.lol/pledge/ https://justine.lol/pledge/
ahgamut 4y ago
I wanted Python to work across at least Windows/Linux because I have a bunch of these tiny scripts that I keep running everywhere. (For example, I always use `python.com -m http.server` when I want to share files in the local network without SSH). Cosmopolitan Libc made it easy for me to run my scripts across Linux/Windows and more, and the running scripts can be accessed via a browser GUI, which makes it very convenient if someone not use to CLI has to monitor what is going on. Plus I can update my scripts any time by just adding them to the executable via a `zip` command. Toys are still fun to play with :)

buster 4y ago

I'm truely impressed. I don't know if this will become useful in real software, because you'll likely have dependencies (which in turn depend on OS features) pretty fast. But nevertheless, one of the coolest projects out there!

davidshepherd7 4y ago
Any use of OS features by calling functions in the standard library should work though, right? I think it's only dependencies that contain C code that would need further changes. I think you would have to recompile then with cosmopolitan libc.

niux 4y ago

Has anybody managed to compile the executable?

btach 4y ago
Yes. I initially ran into binfmt_misc issues, did a bit of reading on Justine's github repo for Cosmopolitan and found it can be an issue, especially if you have WINE installed. Once I disabled it systemctl stop systemd-binfmt" on Manjaro I just followed the directions. build/bootstrap/make.com -j$(nproc) o//third_party/python/python.com I tested it on Win10, MacOS Monterey, and Linux Manjaro (built on MacOS and Linux), all worked on all platforms.

malkia 4y ago

madness....

Uptrenda 4y ago

Holy shit, this is frigging cool. Python is my language of choice and I'm amazed at the result here. Wow, even the socket implementation works. Python 3.6.14+ (Actually Portable Python) [GCC 9.2.0] on cosmo Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. >>: print("hello world") hello world >>: import asyncio Traceback (most recent call last): File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module> ModuleNotFoundError: No module named 'asyncio' >>: import socket >>: s = socket.socket(socket.AF_INET, socket.SOCK_STREAM) >>: s.connect(("www.google.com", 80)) >>: s <socket.socket fd=3, family=AddressFamily.AF_INET, type=SocketKind.SOCK_STREAM, proto=0, laddr=('192.168.21.19', 63468), raddr=('142.250.70.196', 80)> This work is going to be of interest to a lot of Python devs! Edit: here's the link to the file: https://justine.lol/ftrace/python.com https://justine.lol/ftrace/python.com Download it and see if it will run on your OS. I'm getting the standard prompt on every OS so far. On Windows you just type python.com. On Mac OS X I had to chmod +x, allow it in security settings, and use bash -c './hello.com' to execute it. Simple chmod +x python.com; ./python.com on Linux.

flohofwoe 4y ago
...in addition, on my ARM Mac I had to start the program like this, otherwise there's an "exec format error": arch -x86_64 ./python.com
- woodrowbarlow 4y ago
  the APE format and cosmo libc provide operating system portability, not instruction set portability.
Abishek_Muthian 4y ago
Does this mean I can build portable Python applications like I do with Go without having to worry about the glibc version on the running machine in case I had used CGO?

Uptrenda 4y ago

I'm thinking this python.com file would be so, so useful for DevOs / admin tasks. Use it as a lightweight binary to run Python scripts for all platforms. Would probably be very useful for setup / installation scripts or install commands.

ahgamut 4y ago
Yup, this is one big reason why I wanted Python to be Actually Portable -- I have a bunch of tiny scripts that are slightly complex for sh (some of them were Windows CMD .BAT files lol) which I like to use everywhere. By building Python with Cosmopolitan Libc, I can take a single binary and my scripts with me! I just add my scripts into the APE ZIP store via `zip -r ./python.com ./.python/*.py` and it just works. I only have VMs now, but a while ago I had Debian 10/Fedora 35/Windows 10/FreeBSD 13 all on the same network, and it was super convenient to have the same script/executable work everywhere.

baq 4y ago

Python's biggest issue - distribution - solved without any containerization. once this gets threads, TLS and a recent Python version, I can see it becoming a non-toy fast. well done!

bamboozled 4y ago
It's solved by using Go, 6 years ago.
- Epa095 4y ago
  Go builds a single binary for both Linux, Windows and osx?
  - oflebbe 4y ago
    it builds single binaries even for other processors like arm, arm64.
    - estebank 4y ago
      One of us is confused, and it very well might be me and GP, but I thought that Go can cross-compile to other platforms (different OS and arch combinations), but cannot produce (at least by default?) a single binary that can run on multiple platforms, like this article does.
      - ReactiveJelly 4y ago
        Yeah Go does not do that. I don't think any lang does I think it's pretty much a unique feature of APE, because APE binaries modify their own code after the first run to nativize themselves. (Right? Or do the new versions work different?) I can't tell if my disdain for this is real (Since I really like having my exes read-only and having a consistent hash) or just sublimated envy (Since most desktops will in practice have every file marked as read-write, and if it works it's not stupid)
  - 4y ago

kaba0 4y ago

APE is cool, but other than it being a bar trick I fail to see much usage out of it. Especially in case of an interpreter - like, just have the native version installed on the target OS.

baq 4y ago
> just have the native version installed on the target OS this is literally the problem
- wokwokwok 4y ago
  How is it the solution? End user applications, sure… but the raw python interpreter? If you want it, you have to install it. If you want to install it, you go to python.org and install it. This solves… a headache for the maintainers, having to build multiple packages? Not having it installed is definitely not solved by this. Bundling python packages into a single binary is definitely not solved by this.
  - baq 4y ago
    it isn't the solution, but it is a solution. it might be the solution for a particular subset of tools, which is still great, because it usually was a PITA even for those constrained use cases.
  - ElectricalUnion 4y ago
    > End user applications, sure… but the raw python interpreter? If you want it, you have to install it. If you want to install it, you go to python.org and install it. If you want just the raw python interpreter, you're not the end user? > Not having it installed is definitely not solved by this. But not having to install it is the point? > Bundling python packages into a single binary is definitely not solved by this. It is? There's even a working example in the article? mkdir -p Lib/site-packages # specify python version to pip if necessary /usr/bin/python2 -m pip download flask -t . # start "build" cp ./python.com ./my-release.com printf '%s\n' '-m' >./.args printf '%s\n' 'my_module_name' >>./.args # wheels are just ZIPs, use unzip if pip complains ./python.com -m pip install flask*.whl -t ./Lib/site-packages ./zip.com -qr ./my-release.com ./Lib/site-packages/ ./zip.com ./my-release.com ./.args # optional cleanup rm -rf ./*.whl ./Lib/site-packages/ ./my-release.com

bondant 4y ago

Does it work with tkinter? So I can have a GUI for every OS in a single executable ?

ptspts 4y ago
Not yet, because Tk itself hasn't been ported to Cosmopolitan Libc yet.

codedokode 4y ago

This APE format is not "write once run anywhere", because it targets a specific architectrure (64-bit x86) and won't run on other architectures. Just a toy format and I see no use for it. What we need instead is better support in Linux for legacy Linux and Windows applications so that Linux could run any proprietary software written for it or for Windows (because there are no sources for it and it cannot be recompiled). Today it is not so: for example, very old Firefox builds don't run or crash on modern Linux.

spyremeown 4y ago
> Just a toy format and I see no use for it. Can you see how the problem that you described in the subsequent paragraph could easily be solved if the applications were compiled in such a format?
- codedokode 4y ago
  They wouldn't be solved because the problem is that newer versions of shared libraries are not compatible with older applications. There is no problem with ELF or PE formats - ELF is supported on Linux natively, and PE is supported using Wine. APE format doesn't solve the problem with shared libraries changing over time, it dosn't solve the problem that different plaforms provide different APIs (for example, windowing APIs, audio APIs etc).
  - ElectricalUnion 4y ago
    > APE format doesn't solve the problem with shared libraries changing over time APE doesn't use shared libraries at all and it's intended to be statically linked? > APE (...) dosn't solve the problem that different plaforms provide different APIs APE provides the most important POSIX APIs (or shims) for every platform it supports.
ElectricalUnion 4y ago
> This APE format is not "write once run anywhere", because it targets a specific architectrure (64-bit x86) and won't run on other architectures. > What we need instead is better support in Linux for legacy Linux and Windows applications (...) Today it is not so: for example, very old Firefox builds don't run or crash on modern Linux. But that is the exact reason why "legacy Linux and Windows" doesn't work, and why APE works: you should target the "specific architectrure" directly instead of hopefully trusting that the entire underlying system is a completly static target. That or using containers/shim layers, those of course bringing such entire underlying system with them.

ingenieroariel 4y ago

Another benefit of cosmo compiled apps is debugging. I won't get into pledge/unveil but check this out: On my compiled python.com I try to open an app with a socket already in use: ./o/third_party/python/python.com run.py --strace SYS 15995 443'293'703 read(3, [u"egister(self, selectors.EVENT_READ)◙◙ "...], 8'192) → 8'192 SYS 15995 443'440'589 close(3) → 0 self.socket.bind(self.server_address) SYS 15995 443'471'588 write(2, u" self.socket.bind(self.server_address"..., 42) → 42 OSError: [Errno 98] EADDRINUSE/98/Address already in use SYS 15995 443'523'517 write(2, u"OSError: [Errno 98] EADDRINUSE/98 /Addres"..., 57) → 57 SYS 15995 443'533'391 getenv("PYTHONINSPECT") → NULL

Liquid_Fire 4y ago
Could you clarify how this is better than what you can get with strace without using Cosmopolitan Libc? Or is it just that it's "built in"?
- ingenieroariel 4y ago
  Just that it is built in I guess, and that cosmo libc places special attention to allowing you to use gdb/strace/memzoom and other debugging tools.

samwillis 4y ago

This is awesome! I like the idea of combining this with pyScript to create portable “GUI” apps. Use this for a local server, open the users browser and point it at it. Websockets/pickle to bridge to a UI written in pyScript. Does cosmopolitan have an API to open the users default browser? I know Python itself does… https://pyscript.net/ https://pyscript.net/

ahgamut 4y ago
Nice idea! IIRC redbean has the `LaunchBrowser` function (https://redbean.dev/2.0.html#LaunchBrowser https://redbean.dev/2.0.html#LaunchBrowser) to open the user's default browser, and the `cosmo` module in Python is exactly for providing Cosmopolitan Libc goodies via a Python API. You can probably copy some of the LaunchBrowser code into `third_party/python/Python/cosmomodule.c` and implement the feature you're looking for. Submit a PR :)

intelVISA 4y ago

Wow, an αcτµαlly pδrταblε snαkε. Jart needs to slow down producing so many good hacks -- it's putting the rest of us to shame!