14 ms·

The Creepiest Cycling Condition: Shermer’s Neck

100 points by dsego 4y ago

Pakdef 4y ago
Apparently, the side effects can last multiple months but the condition could heal in a few weeks in some cases: https://felixwong.com/2015/08/my-experience-with-shermers-neck/ https://felixwong.com/2015/08/my-experience-with-shermers-ne...
amelius 4y ago
So what muscles are responsible for this? Upper traps? Could bad posture behind a computer cause the same problem? By the way, Michael Shermer is quite an interesting person: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Shermer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Shermer
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- cube00 4y ago
  Spare a thought for those on exercise desk bikes and using a computer.
- googlryas 4y ago
  Too many to list, most of which no normal person has ever heard of, but basically all muscles responsible for neck extension. They may have names like transversospinalis, semispinalis, and multifidus. Yes it could, but usually people will take a break at the computer before it affects them. I'm 38 and have been programming for 20+ years without issue, my posture is sort of leaning back in the chair, definitely not leaning forward with heard forward.
TedShiller 4y ago
- karamanolev 4y ago
  What value does this comment bring? Aside from being super obvious, it's the easiest thing to do, but also brings no value. Is it helpful for software engineers to just "stop being in front of the computer" when faced with RSI? How are they going to feed their family? Same for pro riders or any other professional people who can't "just stop". Pushing the limits has value in that sense. But it can also be an intrinsic goal. These people are out there to push themselves beyond any previous limits. It really does help you discover things about yourself and your body in ways not many other things do. The sense of achievement and the memories created are priceless, but also helps you put so many other things in perspective with your newly minted experience. I find it very defeatist and boring to say "just quit" when faced with difficulties.
  - curiousgal 4y ago
    In this particular case the cyclist got the condition 1000 miles into a 3000 mile race. He should have stopped indeed.
jbirer 4y ago
I see people who overexert themselves in sports not too dissimilar from drug addicts. They are coping with some internal issue by forcing their bodies to produce endorphins & adrenaline, to the point of giving themselves diseases like this one mentioned. They need professional help and take more time to recover.
- alar44 4y ago
  Agreed. "Yeah so I was running a marathon and had to piss so you just go while you're running, everybody does it." Cooooolsies...
  - _dain_ 4y ago
    Philippides probably pissed himself while he was running from the battle of Marathon to Athens. then again he also died at the end ... think of it as a libation to his memory.
- bmitc 4y ago
  Bicyclists seem, to me, to be a very certain and peculiar breed of obsessives.
  - system2 4y ago
    - Sentino 4y ago
      Srsly? How often are they a problem? Also it's legal and expected
      - zdragnar 4y ago
        It depends on the local culture. You've gotta be pretty dedicated to ride a bike in the metro near me on some streets, because the layout isn't very friendly to bikers. Those that do seem to rarely obey traffic laws- the number of near-miss incidents alone caused by bicyclists who run red lights or weave in and out of lanes, up onto sidewalks, then back down into traffic is too damn high, to borrow a meme. The city would be a whole lot better off somewhere in the middle- more room for dedicated biking, and more enforcement of safe behavior. It's not just the roads either, unfortunately. There's a shared walking and bicycling path that runs around a lake in the city. It's fairly popular, but I've never been more than twice because I find walking there is unpleasant. You can only get nearly clipped by bikers flying past, not staying in their lane, just so many times.
chriscjcj 4y ago
A photo in the article (https://reportage.transcontinental.cc/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/haydentape.jpg https://reportage.transcontinental.cc/wp-content/uploads/201...) showing someone suffering from the condition shows that he also suffers from another condition common to many cyclists: a brutal case of farmer's tan. An extreme case here: https://server6.intermedia.ge/pictures/original/503/503371.jpg?/gansxvavebul-ampluaSi.jpg https://server6.intermedia.ge/pictures/original/503/503371.j...
- freetime2 4y ago
  Suffers from? Every cyclist I know wears their nice, crisp tan lines with pride!
- vehemenz 4y ago
  I've gotten more farmer's tan from a single 100km ride than the cyclist in the photo. That second one though... wow!
Rygian 4y ago
My immediate reaction was that the creepy thing is not the condition itself, but the mindset to duct-tape a PVC pipe to their heads just so they can keep cycling. Reminds me of another comment today elsewhere in HN citing the classic "the spirit is strong but the flesh is weak."
- Ekaros 4y ago
  I find it somewhat horrifying. The clearest indication to stop something is for the body to literarily give up... And then to jury rig something to go beyond what can be expected.
- freetime2 4y ago
  And it’s not even like it happened near the end of the race and he decided to power through it, which would be more understandable. It happened 1000 miles into the race, with 2000 miles left to go! I cannot even imagine making the decision to continue on at that point.
peteradio 4y ago
Sounds like a well contrived urban myth. I can't stop laughing.
- imperialdrive 4y ago
  Watch some footage on the cycling that leads to it, and your laugh may turn into a gawk.
photochemsyn 4y ago
All around training is very important if you want to avoid injury, particularly if you're going to do things like try to ride 1,000 miles in one push. For this condition in particular, there are plenty of exercises one could do. These look good. https://www.iron-neck.com/blogs/news/best-neck-exercises-for-mass-injury-prevention-1 https://www.iron-neck.com/blogs/news/best-neck-exercises-for... Most people assume the only goal of training is to improve performance in one's particular sport, but in reality, one-sided training creates imbalances that can lead to injury, and a central goal of any training program should be all-around strength and flexibility.
- freetime2 4y ago
  I agree - weight lifting and core exercises have had huge benefits for me on longer rides. Whereas previously I would start to start to get uncomfortable at the end of 4+ hour rides with a sore neck, hands, and lower back - I have found that those symptoms have pretty gone away completely after adoption a strength training routine. It’s made what was already my favorite activity even more enjoyable. I think a lot of cyclists are afraid to put on muscle anywhere other than their legs, for fear of gaining weight. But really those fears are unfounded, and even a small amount of weight training would help with both their speed and enjoyment of the sport.
- __alexs 4y ago
  If you only train one part of your body (and that's all a single exercise like cycling is going to do for you), you're setting yourself up for injuries down the road. I've seen it a hundred times. It's like putting a powerful engine in a stock Toyota Tercel. What will you accomplish? You'll blow out the drive train, the clutch, the transmission, etc., because those factory parts aren't designed to handle the power of an engine much more powerful than the factory installed engine. Cycling basically only trains the biceps and to some extent, the back muscles. What you really want to do is train your entire body, all the major muscle groups (chest, back, abdomen, legs, shoulders and arms) at the same time, over the course of a workout. And don't forget your cardiovascular work! I'm proud of you guys wanting to do this. Three cheers! Falling in love with exercise, eating right, etc., is one of the greatest things you can do for yourself. And you WILL fall in love with it if you can just force yourself to stick with it a year or two and experience the amazing progress you'll make.
JKCalhoun 4y ago
Race Across America probably should be outlawed. Like the Cannonball Express it's just dangerous ... dangerous to the riders. And I am absolutely fascinated by it. I had not known about it until I past a woman biking across Arizona with a support car following. When I got to the campsite (vacation with the family), I googled and determined she was participating in a race called "RAAM". I couldn't believe it was a non-stop race across the U.S. Sleep, or any kind of rest, is a liability. I guess I had expected the race to be broken up across a dozen days or so with checkpoints and times taken and added to declare the winner by race's end. But, no, it's just crazy. And I guess it's the thing that endears me so much to our species.
- 4gotunameagain 4y ago
  why should it be outlawed if it only affects negatively the people who willingly decide to do it? While the cannonball express is definitely dangerous to others, if someone wants to ruin their neck cycling across the globe, be my guest who am I to say no
  - paulryanrogers 4y ago
    A counterargument could be that engaging in certain reckless behaviors will require paying higher insurance or taxes to cover the inevitable permanent disabilities. Much like smoking premiums.
    - usefulcat 4y ago
      True but you could make that kind of argument about a lot of things. Like literally anything that could negatively affect one's physical health. So alcohol, sugar, lack of excercise, a non-vegan diet, etc etc. My point being that if you're going to make that argument, then effectively what you really need to do is make an argument for where specifically to draw that line, and that's a much harder argument to make.
    - bigDinosaur 4y ago
      How is that a counterargument? It seems to me that paying more for insurance is perfectly fine for anyone doing extreme activities. You pay more for travel insurance if you do something as simple as skiing (which is actually quite dangerous).
TrueGeek 4y ago
I did Paris Brest Paris in 2019 (finished in 89 hours) and got Sherman’s neck for the very end. I saw other riders suffering from it, and one woman who had put her hair in a long braid and then fastened that somehow to hold up her head. Luckily, for me, it came at the very end and I was able to finish. Worse was that I compressed my ulnar nerve and had loss of feeling and tingling in my left arm for 6 months. Lots of good memories from that ride.
- pmontra 4y ago
  First of all congratulations for completing the Paris Brest Paris. I had a much smaller problem with a new bike. I compressed the tendon of my left thumb on a 6 hours ride (imagine a 89 hours one. ) It got too weak to open a clothespin, no chance to shift a MTB derailleur. It took one month to fully recover. I permanently solved it by raising the handlebar to transfer some load to the back. My question: do you know if some long distance riders compromise the setup of their bikes to lower the chances of those kind of physical problems?
  - andreareina 4y ago
    Arguable that's not compromising the setup but in fact the correct one. Fit is critically important to something that forces you into a singular position/movement pattern for so long. Not to say the body doesn't adapt but it does have limits and nerve compression and hitting the (physical) end ranges of motion are cases where it's not so great at doing so.
    - TrueGeek 4y ago
      I would agree. I spent a lot of time working closely with my bike shop working on fit. Many sessions over a couple years learning things about fit that you don't really notice until after your first really long ride.
- cmgbhm 4y ago
  Glad that worked out for you. The ulnar nerve issue is no joke. I compressed both of mine on my first 4h ride. It took 2mons to get back to guitar with special clip picks and more bike fit knowledge and strength training than I expected. Even finding a diagnosis was a struggle.
pge 4y ago
Michael Shermer, for whom this condition is named, is also a prolific science journalist: long-time columnist for Scientific American and author of several books about pseudoscience.
- technothrasher 4y ago
  He's also the founder and executive director of the Skeptics Society (www.skeptic.com). He talks a bit about weird mental states he got into after cycling for extended periods in his first book about pseudoscience, "Why People Believe Weird Things". He's not without controversy, however, having been accused of sexual assault by multiple woman, has strong right wing political opinions (not that I'm suggesting that's necessarily wrong, but it does bring him controversy), and has a weirdly supportive relationship with Deepak Chopra, an infamous pseudoscience charlatan.
vehemenz 4y ago
I've felt neck fatigue around ~250 miles in a day. My solution is to regularly look down when it's safe to do so (not drafting). One idea I have is a Hololens-like setup, with a camera mounted to the front of the bike to allow the cyclist to ride in a "head down" position for long stretches, preventing neck fatigue and increasing aerodynamics.
- beering 4y ago
  Would belay glasses work?
- asdff 4y ago
  Bicyclists should just sit more upright so the neck doesn't have to be fatiqued in the first place. If the purpose of the ride is for training/health/cardio, then you should want more wind resistance rather than less. It means you get to burn the same amount of calories in less real time and you can either chose to go on and burn more calories or do with that time however you like. If you aren't racing you should be avoiding all the 1% gain type stuff anyhow because it just makes you workout needlessly longer for a huge chunk of change, if the workout is what you are going for when riding a bike.
  - seadan83 4y ago
    Body aerodynamics is more like the 30% gain territory, body geometry is the single most important factor for aerodynamics. I don't think it wise to think you know what is best for others. Longer is better cardio and needed for endurance training. Less watts wasted in air resistance just means you are riding faster. "It never gets easier, you just get faster"
    - raziel2701 4y ago
      They only said that if your goal in cycling is to get fit and health benefits then it makes the most sense to get a comfortable bike. I think it makes sense to fight back against the common recommendations you get from bike communities who are obsessing about weight and efficiency. If you are seeking to get fit by riding a bike, get a heavy bike. You'll do more work and you'll get stronger.
nope96 4y ago
I ended up with a devastating sudden neck injury that seemed computer related. Had noticed when I'd go to turn my neck, occasionally it would not actually turn, and I'd hear a 'crunch' noise. No pain. One day, it did hurt, and for the next year I could not really sit or stand without feeling extreme neck fatigue after a few minutes. 10 years later I have not fully recovered. Doctors couldn't help (or see anything wrong on MRI), but said a lifetime of sitting in front of a screen 8 to 12 hours a day was probably the culprit. Solution was, unfortunately, to quit working. I'm typing this sideways laying down on a couch. If your neck starts to act funny, give it a rest! (Building some contraption with PVC pipes as in this article had not occurred to me, but it seems like it would just lead to other muscles being overused, instead, with new injury somewhere else eventually)
- prox 4y ago
  Have you as a therapy tried strengthening your core/serratus muscles as a therapy?
  - nope96 4y ago
    Sort of. I'm not sure what muscles were being targeted, but I went to two different physical therapists who both showed me the same set of exercises. I did not see any improvement, (the second time things briefly got worse), but I admit I get frustrated quickly, and did not stick with it long enough. I was never sure I was "doing it right." Thought about trying again, at home, but I don't know what is safe to try. When this started, I'd bought a neck pain book (written in the early 2000's) that had example exercises. I showed the 1st physical therapist (a PhD), and he said "Oh no, don't do those exercises, we don't do those any more. That will make things worse!". So I'm leery of trying random youtube video exercises... and due to Covid, not quite ready yet to go to in-person PT again.
    - prox 4y ago
      Yeah, there is a lot of stuff floating around. I tried 3 therapists for a similar type of ailment and none really worked, the last one was best by just guiding me slowly as you do need to “build up” back to a body functionality. For me it was walking properly (heel to toe) that slowly got me back into normalcy. Brent brookbush is pretty good institute that helped me gain insight with a strong evidence based focus. YouTube channels tend to be copycat videos that really don’t address all the different options and modalities.
Tade0 4y ago
I had this once, in circumstances unrelated to sport. One time I got talked into going to a club - something I don't normally do. It so happened that it was "goth night", so I figured I would spend the night headbanging. After a few hours, when the club was almost closing up I noticed that something was off - my neck muscles felt weak. Next thing I know I'm sitting at the side of the stage with my head down, looking like a case of alcohol poisoning, and can't move. I sat there for half an hour until I regained enough strength to at least somehow make to the exit. Gradually it went away but I only fully recovered the next morning.
SnowHill9902 4y ago
Adds to the list of reasons why not to cycle which includes erectile dysfunction from pinched pudendal nerve, and traffic accidents where you die and the car may not even notice.
- pdxandi 4y ago
  There are saddles you can buy to help with pinching. I personally use the ISM Adamo.
- asdff 4y ago
  You aren't going to pinch a nerve from riding the bike 30 mins to work or the store, especially considering with commuting biking you are standing up off the pedals stopped pretty frequently. Traffic accidents sure are bad but you can identify safe routes. For example I avoid arterials and opt for those 25mph residential roads that run parallel, and those are extremely safe. The number of cyclists that have died last year in my city of some 4 million people is also about a dozen people, and its not clear whether confounding factors were involved (e.g. alcohol or drugs or lack of helmet or nonddevensive/lack of awareness biking given the not so small homeless population that rides bikes in varying states of sobriety in my city).
  - andbberger 4y ago
    are you the ghost of john forester or what? blaming cycling fatalities on a mythical vilified population of homeless cyclists who you assume to not be sober instead of the traffic engineers who designed your city is both incredibly misguided and prejudiced. shame on you.
    - asdff 4y ago
      I paint a hypothetically plausible situation that could explain a lot of the incidents given what I see play out on the road surface in my city, I don't blame anyone, I just describe how there could be plenty of confounding factors that lead to a dangerous situation on the road. The numbers at the end of the day are so low. 10 per 4 million people a year does not indicate to me a trend one way or another in terms of safety to me. Again, imagine another hypothetical, maybe just some barhopping dudebros renting lime bikes while blackout drunk then getting into some tragic accident, that could throw the numbers up to 15 that year just from that one freak accident. People might go "wow deaths are up 50% this year" and start all sorts of discussions from that fact, but really this hypothetical increase could be well within the yearly variance of this metric and may not actually be a real trend. Life is bayesian.
dwd 4y ago
Michael Shermer who this was named after is quite an interesting person and his podcast is worth a listen. He generally talks to the same group of public intellectuals you see on Lex Fridman, Sam Harris, etc and often asks different questions.
GekkePrutser 4y ago
I also had some neck issues when I swam a lot. I don't like to put my head under water and I don't know the front crawl, though I can do the breaststroke very quickly, even keep up with a lot of front crawl swimmers. It does take a lot more energy to do that but I did it as exercise so that was the point. I don't care about any kind of competitiveness in sport. The only reason I'd keep up with the crawl swimmers is because they tend to complain about sharing the lane otherwise. But constantly having my neck tilted up to the 'stop' did give me an itchy and stiff neck, often lasting the day after the swim. I hike now for exercise as I moved to a mountainous country, glad I don't have that issue anymore.
uwagar 4y ago
[flagged]
fny 4y ago
Is there anyway to prevent such a thing from happening in the first place?
- dublinben 4y ago
  A recumbent bike significantly improves the riding posture, and would probably prevent this injury among others.
ghostly_s 4y ago
"We’re all susceptible to what our bodies tell us. When there’s a strange pain or sickness, our bodies are hinting at us that there should be something done about it," the article opens, then goes on to uncritically describe people using alarming techniques to power through with a grueling activity which has just caused a serious injury. Spending 8 days in near-constant intense aerobic activity on 1 hour of sleep is likely to cause lifelong health repercussions. We should not be glamorizing these people.
- woodruffw 4y ago
  I didn't read this article as glamorizing. At worst it's neutral to the health effects of ultraendurance athletics, and describes their consequences as "creepy" and "bizarre."
- Barrin92 4y ago
  >Spending 8 days in near-constant intense aerobic activity on 1 hour of sleep is likely to cause lifelong health repercussions the most dangerous part here is probably the chance of having an accident on that little sleep, but there's no need to be hyperbolic, there's very rarely lasting health repercussions to short term stress like this (physical at least) in healthy adults, soldiers go through similar conditions in training and during war. Sometimes for much longer. You'd be surprised how much your body can actually take. (and recover from)
tux2bsd 4y ago
They are ignoring the need to move when crashing. They should look into recumbent bikes.
vemv 4y ago
As with many conditions, the root cause is posture. the neck and spine have a natural posture we're meant to use most of the time. Competitive road cyclists' posture is completely forwards, for aerodynamics, better climbing, etc. Using it may be a useful tool in your 20s / in competition but otherwise it is wise to use an upright position, which will take the least toll and will be fastest to recover from. Some bike setup tweaks can make a (more) upright position easier - from higher handlebars, to moving the seat forwards, to even getting a slightly shorter bike frame (since in the case of mountain bikes, they tend to be longer for greater stability). Finally, while riding you should be looking up, at the horizon practically, not at the cockpit.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

100 points by dsego 4y ago

Apparently, the side effects can last multiple months but the condition could heal in a few weeks in some cases: https://felixwong.com/2015/08/my-experience-with-shermers-neck/ https://felixwong.com/2015/08/my-experience-with-shermers-ne...

amelius 4y ago

So what muscles are responsible for this? Upper traps? Could bad posture behind a computer cause the same problem? By the way, Michael Shermer is quite an interesting person: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Shermer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Shermer

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
cube00 4y ago
Spare a thought for those on exercise desk bikes and using a computer.
googlryas 4y ago
Too many to list, most of which no normal person has ever heard of, but basically all muscles responsible for neck extension. They may have names like transversospinalis, semispinalis, and multifidus. Yes it could, but usually people will take a break at the computer before it affects them. I'm 38 and have been programming for 20+ years without issue, my posture is sort of leaning back in the chair, definitely not leaning forward with heard forward.

TedShiller 4y ago

karamanolev 4y ago
What value does this comment bring? Aside from being super obvious, it's the easiest thing to do, but also brings no value. Is it helpful for software engineers to just "stop being in front of the computer" when faced with RSI? How are they going to feed their family? Same for pro riders or any other professional people who can't "just stop". Pushing the limits has value in that sense. But it can also be an intrinsic goal. These people are out there to push themselves beyond any previous limits. It really does help you discover things about yourself and your body in ways not many other things do. The sense of achievement and the memories created are priceless, but also helps you put so many other things in perspective with your newly minted experience. I find it very defeatist and boring to say "just quit" when faced with difficulties.
- curiousgal 4y ago
  In this particular case the cyclist got the condition 1000 miles into a 3000 mile race. He should have stopped indeed.

jbirer 4y ago

I see people who overexert themselves in sports not too dissimilar from drug addicts. They are coping with some internal issue by forcing their bodies to produce endorphins & adrenaline, to the point of giving themselves diseases like this one mentioned. They need professional help and take more time to recover.

alar44 4y ago
Agreed. "Yeah so I was running a marathon and had to piss so you just go while you're running, everybody does it." Cooooolsies...
- _dain_ 4y ago
  Philippides probably pissed himself while he was running from the battle of Marathon to Athens. then again he also died at the end ... think of it as a libation to his memory.
bmitc 4y ago
Bicyclists seem, to me, to be a very certain and peculiar breed of obsessives.
- system2 4y ago
  - Sentino 4y ago
    Srsly? How often are they a problem? Also it's legal and expected
    - zdragnar 4y ago
      It depends on the local culture. You've gotta be pretty dedicated to ride a bike in the metro near me on some streets, because the layout isn't very friendly to bikers. Those that do seem to rarely obey traffic laws- the number of near-miss incidents alone caused by bicyclists who run red lights or weave in and out of lanes, up onto sidewalks, then back down into traffic is too damn high, to borrow a meme. The city would be a whole lot better off somewhere in the middle- more room for dedicated biking, and more enforcement of safe behavior. It's not just the roads either, unfortunately. There's a shared walking and bicycling path that runs around a lake in the city. It's fairly popular, but I've never been more than twice because I find walking there is unpleasant. You can only get nearly clipped by bikers flying past, not staying in their lane, just so many times.

chriscjcj 4y ago

A photo in the article (https://reportage.transcontinental.cc/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/haydentape.jpg https://reportage.transcontinental.cc/wp-content/uploads/201...) showing someone suffering from the condition shows that he also suffers from another condition common to many cyclists: a brutal case of farmer's tan. An extreme case here: https://server6.intermedia.ge/pictures/original/503/503371.jpg?/gansxvavebul-ampluaSi.jpg https://server6.intermedia.ge/pictures/original/503/503371.j...

freetime2 4y ago
Suffers from? Every cyclist I know wears their nice, crisp tan lines with pride!
vehemenz 4y ago
I've gotten more farmer's tan from a single 100km ride than the cyclist in the photo. That second one though... wow!

Rygian 4y ago

My immediate reaction was that the creepy thing is not the condition itself, but the mindset to duct-tape a PVC pipe to their heads just so they can keep cycling. Reminds me of another comment today elsewhere in HN citing the classic "the spirit is strong but the flesh is weak."

Ekaros 4y ago
I find it somewhat horrifying. The clearest indication to stop something is for the body to literarily give up... And then to jury rig something to go beyond what can be expected.
freetime2 4y ago
And it’s not even like it happened near the end of the race and he decided to power through it, which would be more understandable. It happened 1000 miles into the race, with 2000 miles left to go! I cannot even imagine making the decision to continue on at that point.

peteradio 4y ago

Sounds like a well contrived urban myth. I can't stop laughing.

imperialdrive 4y ago
Watch some footage on the cycling that leads to it, and your laugh may turn into a gawk.

photochemsyn 4y ago

All around training is very important if you want to avoid injury, particularly if you're going to do things like try to ride 1,000 miles in one push. For this condition in particular, there are plenty of exercises one could do. These look good. https://www.iron-neck.com/blogs/news/best-neck-exercises-for-mass-injury-prevention-1 https://www.iron-neck.com/blogs/news/best-neck-exercises-for... Most people assume the only goal of training is to improve performance in one's particular sport, but in reality, one-sided training creates imbalances that can lead to injury, and a central goal of any training program should be all-around strength and flexibility.

freetime2 4y ago
I agree - weight lifting and core exercises have had huge benefits for me on longer rides. Whereas previously I would start to start to get uncomfortable at the end of 4+ hour rides with a sore neck, hands, and lower back - I have found that those symptoms have pretty gone away completely after adoption a strength training routine. It’s made what was already my favorite activity even more enjoyable. I think a lot of cyclists are afraid to put on muscle anywhere other than their legs, for fear of gaining weight. But really those fears are unfounded, and even a small amount of weight training would help with both their speed and enjoyment of the sport.
__alexs 4y ago
If you only train one part of your body (and that's all a single exercise like cycling is going to do for you), you're setting yourself up for injuries down the road. I've seen it a hundred times. It's like putting a powerful engine in a stock Toyota Tercel. What will you accomplish? You'll blow out the drive train, the clutch, the transmission, etc., because those factory parts aren't designed to handle the power of an engine much more powerful than the factory installed engine. Cycling basically only trains the biceps and to some extent, the back muscles. What you really want to do is train your entire body, all the major muscle groups (chest, back, abdomen, legs, shoulders and arms) at the same time, over the course of a workout. And don't forget your cardiovascular work! I'm proud of you guys wanting to do this. Three cheers! Falling in love with exercise, eating right, etc., is one of the greatest things you can do for yourself. And you WILL fall in love with it if you can just force yourself to stick with it a year or two and experience the amazing progress you'll make.

JKCalhoun 4y ago

Race Across America probably should be outlawed. Like the Cannonball Express it's just dangerous ... dangerous to the riders. And I am absolutely fascinated by it. I had not known about it until I past a woman biking across Arizona with a support car following. When I got to the campsite (vacation with the family), I googled and determined she was participating in a race called "RAAM". I couldn't believe it was a non-stop race across the U.S. Sleep, or any kind of rest, is a liability. I guess I had expected the race to be broken up across a dozen days or so with checkpoints and times taken and added to declare the winner by race's end. But, no, it's just crazy. And I guess it's the thing that endears me so much to our species.

4gotunameagain 4y ago
why should it be outlawed if it only affects negatively the people who willingly decide to do it? While the cannonball express is definitely dangerous to others, if someone wants to ruin their neck cycling across the globe, be my guest who am I to say no
- paulryanrogers 4y ago
  A counterargument could be that engaging in certain reckless behaviors will require paying higher insurance or taxes to cover the inevitable permanent disabilities. Much like smoking premiums.
  - usefulcat 4y ago
    True but you could make that kind of argument about a lot of things. Like literally anything that could negatively affect one's physical health. So alcohol, sugar, lack of excercise, a non-vegan diet, etc etc. My point being that if you're going to make that argument, then effectively what you really need to do is make an argument for where specifically to draw that line, and that's a much harder argument to make.
  - bigDinosaur 4y ago
    How is that a counterargument? It seems to me that paying more for insurance is perfectly fine for anyone doing extreme activities. You pay more for travel insurance if you do something as simple as skiing (which is actually quite dangerous).

TrueGeek 4y ago

I did Paris Brest Paris in 2019 (finished in 89 hours) and got Sherman’s neck for the very end. I saw other riders suffering from it, and one woman who had put her hair in a long braid and then fastened that somehow to hold up her head. Luckily, for me, it came at the very end and I was able to finish. Worse was that I compressed my ulnar nerve and had loss of feeling and tingling in my left arm for 6 months. Lots of good memories from that ride.

pmontra 4y ago
First of all congratulations for completing the Paris Brest Paris. I had a much smaller problem with a new bike. I compressed the tendon of my left thumb on a 6 hours ride (imagine a 89 hours one. ) It got too weak to open a clothespin, no chance to shift a MTB derailleur. It took one month to fully recover. I permanently solved it by raising the handlebar to transfer some load to the back. My question: do you know if some long distance riders compromise the setup of their bikes to lower the chances of those kind of physical problems?
- andreareina 4y ago
  Arguable that's not compromising the setup but in fact the correct one. Fit is critically important to something that forces you into a singular position/movement pattern for so long. Not to say the body doesn't adapt but it does have limits and nerve compression and hitting the (physical) end ranges of motion are cases where it's not so great at doing so.
  - TrueGeek 4y ago
    I would agree. I spent a lot of time working closely with my bike shop working on fit. Many sessions over a couple years learning things about fit that you don't really notice until after your first really long ride.
cmgbhm 4y ago
Glad that worked out for you. The ulnar nerve issue is no joke. I compressed both of mine on my first 4h ride. It took 2mons to get back to guitar with special clip picks and more bike fit knowledge and strength training than I expected. Even finding a diagnosis was a struggle.

pge 4y ago

Michael Shermer, for whom this condition is named, is also a prolific science journalist: long-time columnist for Scientific American and author of several books about pseudoscience.

technothrasher 4y ago
He's also the founder and executive director of the Skeptics Society (www.skeptic.com). He talks a bit about weird mental states he got into after cycling for extended periods in his first book about pseudoscience, "Why People Believe Weird Things". He's not without controversy, however, having been accused of sexual assault by multiple woman, has strong right wing political opinions (not that I'm suggesting that's necessarily wrong, but it does bring him controversy), and has a weirdly supportive relationship with Deepak Chopra, an infamous pseudoscience charlatan.

vehemenz 4y ago

I've felt neck fatigue around ~250 miles in a day. My solution is to regularly look down when it's safe to do so (not drafting). One idea I have is a Hololens-like setup, with a camera mounted to the front of the bike to allow the cyclist to ride in a "head down" position for long stretches, preventing neck fatigue and increasing aerodynamics.

beering 4y ago
Would belay glasses work?
asdff 4y ago
Bicyclists should just sit more upright so the neck doesn't have to be fatiqued in the first place. If the purpose of the ride is for training/health/cardio, then you should want more wind resistance rather than less. It means you get to burn the same amount of calories in less real time and you can either chose to go on and burn more calories or do with that time however you like. If you aren't racing you should be avoiding all the 1% gain type stuff anyhow because it just makes you workout needlessly longer for a huge chunk of change, if the workout is what you are going for when riding a bike.
- seadan83 4y ago
  Body aerodynamics is more like the 30% gain territory, body geometry is the single most important factor for aerodynamics. I don't think it wise to think you know what is best for others. Longer is better cardio and needed for endurance training. Less watts wasted in air resistance just means you are riding faster. "It never gets easier, you just get faster"
  - raziel2701 4y ago
    They only said that if your goal in cycling is to get fit and health benefits then it makes the most sense to get a comfortable bike. I think it makes sense to fight back against the common recommendations you get from bike communities who are obsessing about weight and efficiency. If you are seeking to get fit by riding a bike, get a heavy bike. You'll do more work and you'll get stronger.

nope96 4y ago

I ended up with a devastating sudden neck injury that seemed computer related. Had noticed when I'd go to turn my neck, occasionally it would not actually turn, and I'd hear a 'crunch' noise. No pain. One day, it did hurt, and for the next year I could not really sit or stand without feeling extreme neck fatigue after a few minutes. 10 years later I have not fully recovered. Doctors couldn't help (or see anything wrong on MRI), but said a lifetime of sitting in front of a screen 8 to 12 hours a day was probably the culprit. Solution was, unfortunately, to quit working. I'm typing this sideways laying down on a couch. If your neck starts to act funny, give it a rest! (Building some contraption with PVC pipes as in this article had not occurred to me, but it seems like it would just lead to other muscles being overused, instead, with new injury somewhere else eventually)

prox 4y ago
Have you as a therapy tried strengthening your core/serratus muscles as a therapy?
- nope96 4y ago
  Sort of. I'm not sure what muscles were being targeted, but I went to two different physical therapists who both showed me the same set of exercises. I did not see any improvement, (the second time things briefly got worse), but I admit I get frustrated quickly, and did not stick with it long enough. I was never sure I was "doing it right." Thought about trying again, at home, but I don't know what is safe to try. When this started, I'd bought a neck pain book (written in the early 2000's) that had example exercises. I showed the 1st physical therapist (a PhD), and he said "Oh no, don't do those exercises, we don't do those any more. That will make things worse!". So I'm leery of trying random youtube video exercises... and due to Covid, not quite ready yet to go to in-person PT again.
  - prox 4y ago
    Yeah, there is a lot of stuff floating around. I tried 3 therapists for a similar type of ailment and none really worked, the last one was best by just guiding me slowly as you do need to “build up” back to a body functionality. For me it was walking properly (heel to toe) that slowly got me back into normalcy. Brent brookbush is pretty good institute that helped me gain insight with a strong evidence based focus. YouTube channels tend to be copycat videos that really don’t address all the different options and modalities.

Tade0 4y ago

I had this once, in circumstances unrelated to sport. One time I got talked into going to a club - something I don't normally do. It so happened that it was "goth night", so I figured I would spend the night headbanging. After a few hours, when the club was almost closing up I noticed that something was off - my neck muscles felt weak. Next thing I know I'm sitting at the side of the stage with my head down, looking like a case of alcohol poisoning, and can't move. I sat there for half an hour until I regained enough strength to at least somehow make to the exit. Gradually it went away but I only fully recovered the next morning.

SnowHill9902 4y ago

Adds to the list of reasons why not to cycle which includes erectile dysfunction from pinched pudendal nerve, and traffic accidents where you die and the car may not even notice.

pdxandi 4y ago
There are saddles you can buy to help with pinching. I personally use the ISM Adamo.
asdff 4y ago
You aren't going to pinch a nerve from riding the bike 30 mins to work or the store, especially considering with commuting biking you are standing up off the pedals stopped pretty frequently. Traffic accidents sure are bad but you can identify safe routes. For example I avoid arterials and opt for those 25mph residential roads that run parallel, and those are extremely safe. The number of cyclists that have died last year in my city of some 4 million people is also about a dozen people, and its not clear whether confounding factors were involved (e.g. alcohol or drugs or lack of helmet or nonddevensive/lack of awareness biking given the not so small homeless population that rides bikes in varying states of sobriety in my city).
- andbberger 4y ago
  are you the ghost of john forester or what? blaming cycling fatalities on a mythical vilified population of homeless cyclists who you assume to not be sober instead of the traffic engineers who designed your city is both incredibly misguided and prejudiced. shame on you.
  - asdff 4y ago
    I paint a hypothetically plausible situation that could explain a lot of the incidents given what I see play out on the road surface in my city, I don't blame anyone, I just describe how there could be plenty of confounding factors that lead to a dangerous situation on the road. The numbers at the end of the day are so low. 10 per 4 million people a year does not indicate to me a trend one way or another in terms of safety to me. Again, imagine another hypothetical, maybe just some barhopping dudebros renting lime bikes while blackout drunk then getting into some tragic accident, that could throw the numbers up to 15 that year just from that one freak accident. People might go "wow deaths are up 50% this year" and start all sorts of discussions from that fact, but really this hypothetical increase could be well within the yearly variance of this metric and may not actually be a real trend. Life is bayesian.

dwd 4y ago

Michael Shermer who this was named after is quite an interesting person and his podcast is worth a listen. He generally talks to the same group of public intellectuals you see on Lex Fridman, Sam Harris, etc and often asks different questions.

GekkePrutser 4y ago

I also had some neck issues when I swam a lot. I don't like to put my head under water and I don't know the front crawl, though I can do the breaststroke very quickly, even keep up with a lot of front crawl swimmers. It does take a lot more energy to do that but I did it as exercise so that was the point. I don't care about any kind of competitiveness in sport. The only reason I'd keep up with the crawl swimmers is because they tend to complain about sharing the lane otherwise. But constantly having my neck tilted up to the 'stop' did give me an itchy and stiff neck, often lasting the day after the swim. I hike now for exercise as I moved to a mountainous country, glad I don't have that issue anymore.

uwagar 4y ago

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fny 4y ago

Is there anyway to prevent such a thing from happening in the first place?

dublinben 4y ago
A recumbent bike significantly improves the riding posture, and would probably prevent this injury among others.

ghostly_s 4y ago

"We’re all susceptible to what our bodies tell us. When there’s a strange pain or sickness, our bodies are hinting at us that there should be something done about it," the article opens, then goes on to uncritically describe people using alarming techniques to power through with a grueling activity which has just caused a serious injury. Spending 8 days in near-constant intense aerobic activity on 1 hour of sleep is likely to cause lifelong health repercussions. We should not be glamorizing these people.

woodruffw 4y ago
I didn't read this article as glamorizing. At worst it's neutral to the health effects of ultraendurance athletics, and describes their consequences as "creepy" and "bizarre."
Barrin92 4y ago
>Spending 8 days in near-constant intense aerobic activity on 1 hour of sleep is likely to cause lifelong health repercussions the most dangerous part here is probably the chance of having an accident on that little sleep, but there's no need to be hyperbolic, there's very rarely lasting health repercussions to short term stress like this (physical at least) in healthy adults, soldiers go through similar conditions in training and during war. Sometimes for much longer. You'd be surprised how much your body can actually take. (and recover from)

tux2bsd 4y ago

They are ignoring the need to move when crashing. They should look into recumbent bikes.

vemv 4y ago

As with many conditions, the root cause is posture. the neck and spine have a natural posture we're meant to use most of the time. Competitive road cyclists' posture is completely forwards, for aerodynamics, better climbing, etc. Using it may be a useful tool in your 20s / in competition but otherwise it is wise to use an upright position, which will take the least toll and will be fastest to recover from. Some bike setup tweaks can make a (more) upright position easier - from higher handlebars, to moving the seat forwards, to even getting a slightly shorter bike frame (since in the case of mountain bikes, they tend to be longer for greater stability). Finally, while riding you should be looking up, at the horizon practically, not at the cockpit.

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