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Ask anybody in France if they want to work in the U.S. Unless you're in tech or some other in demand field where the pay is a significant increase I doubt many

Ask anybody in France if they want to work in the U.S. Unless you're in tech or some other in demand field where the pay is a significant increase I doubt many would be willing to.

clement_b 4y ago
30 years ago people would have said yes perhaps (American dream), but now it has become apparent the US is a very broken country for ~90% of its population. It's actually shocking how bad it is when you think about fundamentals (health, food, security, education). We have many problems in France, they look like micro problems when looking at how painful it is for most to survive in the US.
- unixhero 4y ago
  The American dream, you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
- Ma8ee 4y ago
  Exactly! The US is great for the top few percent, but for the rest of the population they’d have a much better life in any Western European country.
  - a-user-you-like 4y ago
    Just raise the minimum wage to $50 an hour, problem solved.
    - justinclift 4y ago
      Seems like inflation would then jump a fair bunch to match?
      - danw1979 4y ago
        Let’s try it and find out
      - Ma8ee 4y ago
        Some jobs would just disappear. No one is going to pay a greeter at Walmart $50 an hour.
        graftak 4y ago
        Good because that is very creepy.
        Ma8ee 4y ago
        I agree. Jobs that isn’t possible to pay a living salary for don’t need to be done.
        a-user-you-like 4y ago
        People still need meaning on their life and plenty of money to support their family. Plenty of public works projects we could start and pay people $50/hr.
      - crooked-v 4y ago
        Jeff Bezos' daily income is about $175 million. Tax him at a marginal rate of 90% and that's about 1500 $50/hour workers compensated for right there.
        jon_adler 4y ago
        Some people still believe in the fantasy of trickle down economics and the Laffer curve, so they push for lower corporate and marginal tax rates that help the wealthiest. The vast majority of people do not benefit as the money flows upwards and concentrates with the wealthiest over time. Some redistribution is needed to promote equality and fairness. Instead, what we have at the moment is a system where the wealthiest are able to avoid taxes and end up paying a lower marginal rate than the middle classes.
    - Swenrekcah 4y ago
      As has been pointed out elsewhere in the thread, most of the problems can be solved better by treating people with respect rather than raising minimum wage through the roof. By that I mean universal healthcare, guaranteed sick leave and childbirth leave as well as minimum 3-4 weeks vacation a year and a good unemployment system.
      - lnxg33k1 4y ago
        I agree with you, but let’s not rule out the wage issue, like it’s crazy that people need to work multiple jobs to make ends meet, but also finding dependable workers that take pride, that’s I think about respect, I am sorry but how I’m supposed to take pride if I do a job well done, then at the first issue the company is just going to lay me off to maximise bonus or dividends?
        Swenrekcah 4y ago
        For sure, there is also one other thing I forgot to mention which is access to affordable (and not unhealthy) housing. With all those in place people wouldn’t be so dependent on their employer. I see a lot of FI/RE stories focusing on the importance of having fuck-you money in order to be able to stand up to your boss. Well if you live in a decent welfare society you can do that without $4M. This would in effect force employers to pay better.
        mathw 4y ago
        I understand many places in the USA you can be legally fired for no reason and with no notice. That is surely harmful to the development of a sense of trust and loyalty towards one's employer.
      - ithkuil 4y ago
        All those things are absolutely necessary to raise to an objectively higher standard like that of western Europe. However, due to the hedonic treadmill, after people get accustomed to it and take things for granted, people will find reasons to be unhappy and frustrated and claim that they live in the worst possible times etc. EDIT: just to be clear: I'm not saying that since people will complain there is no point in improving, nor I'm saying that you don't have to listen people's complaints since they just don't know how lucky they are. It's important to keep improving more and more, since there is still room for improvement. What I'm saying is that it's hard to compare the quality of life in different places just by measuring how many people are complaining here or there.
    - imtringued 4y ago
      People will work for little money or even free if living expenses are low and they enjoy their job.
    - a-user-you-like 4y ago
      Why downvoted? Do people not care for the poorest?
- spaceman_2020 4y ago
  As an outsider, what boggles my mind the most about America right now isn’t healthcare or inequality. Its gun violence. Unreal that schools have active shooter training and no one seems to even care. The fact that there is a non-zero chance your kid might be shot at school is completely absurd.
  - UberFly 4y ago
    Yea but nobody wants to work anymore.
    - polypodiopsi 4y ago
      Hahahaha
  - cm2187 4y ago
    For school shootings, it’s rationally absurd to worry about those rare events. It’s like worrying about dying from a terrorist attack or a plane crash in France. The probability is mathematically non zero, and the country makes a big deal when that happens, but it is statistically a non problem. Being confronted with an armed robber in a home invasion is more of a problem in the US (but France has its own fair share of violent crime). Outside of that I think the bulk of gun violence is suicides and gang on gang violence.
    - scambier 4y ago
      "School shootings are mathematically irrelevant", what a take.
      - TheSpiceIsLife 4y ago
        Talk about normalisation of deviance! I've read that more children have died of gunshot wounds this year than police officers have died in the line of duty.[1] Granted, there are probably more school children at school than there are police at work on any given day, so ... of course children are more likely to be shot at a school? But then again, here in Australia we have reasonable gun control after that mass schooling in Tasmania all those years ago ... and the country still turned to shit ... so? While were here, anyone else got any arguments no one would intentionally make? 1. https://en.as.com/latest_news/more-children-have-died-in-school-shootings-in-2022-than-police-officers-in-the-line-of-duty-fact-check-n/ https://en.as.com/latest_news/more-children-have-died-in-sch...
- School-Cotton 4y ago
  The US is better than the median country in the world on all the metrics you list. Yes, it’s worse than France, which is part of Western Europe, the most developed and best-run part of the entire world.
  - pavlov 4y ago
    The world has a lot of poor countries, so settling for “better than the median” is a very low bar. On the list of GDP per capita, the median countries are South Africa and Peru. If the US ever gets near the median on these global lists, it would be the result of a collapse worse than the Soviet Union’s.
    - School-Cotton 4y ago
      All of this is true. What’s your point?
    - imtringued 4y ago
      You're forgetting Ukraine.
  - doteka 4y ago
    I guess being better than a random third-world country (yes, that’s what median means here) is seen as a great accomplishment? Not sure why you would choose to comment this, it’s like a grown adult bragging about being able to beat up a toddler.
    - School-Cotton 4y ago
      Why is your prior that the US should be doing better than third-world countries? Where did I claim it should be seen as a great accomplishment?
  - polypodiopsi 4y ago
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2020/apr/06/coronavirus-american-reaction-economy-covid-19 https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/news/databl... The facts are as exhaustive as they are exhausting. There’s one simple conclusion from all of this. We’ve been tricked. We’ve been told that America, like most other majority-white countries, deserves the title “developed economy”. It does not. A bit polemic but an interesting perspective. Maybe it's just the case that the us IS a "third world' aka >developing county<
- guggle 4y ago
  > 30 years ago people would have said yes perhaps (American dream) I can relate to that... in the 80s USA was the dream for us kids. But now... I'm so glad I don't live there. France is indeed extremely generous. I wish more french people would realize this.
- jollybean 4y ago
  This is hyperbole. For most people, especially any French person who'd move to the US, all of those indicators are fine, and, income is considerably higher than in France, if not 'free time' and guaranteed access to healthcare. Yes, the food in many ways is not good, but it's fine. There is no 'security' problem - Manhattan is generally safer than Paris, and US has great educational institutions unless you live in a ghetto. It hasn't changed that much over 20 years other than what you see on TV. Attitudes towards work have changed, our material standard of living is considerably higher than it was 2 generations ago, and people are considerably less willing to do manual labour for example. Ironically, wages in semi skilled and skilled labour are actually not that bad. What we have now is a 'new white collar working class' - large swaths of people who went to college and have expectations they wouldn't be managing restaurants.
- mushbino 4y ago
  This is what happens in a country overtaken by corporations, unlimited campaign contributions, and profit above all else.
Bayart 4y ago
I often have a chuckle when I see US companies bragging about their « generous » policies which are systematically bellow the legal minimum in France. This being said, a lot of IT professionals here don't take all of their paid leave. It's not uncommon for me to see people forced into a vacation by their company so they don't get into legal trouble. I don't think they would mind working for a US company (I wouldn't). Working in the US is another thing, and very much an acquired taste.
- Frost1x 4y ago
  IT has indirect pressures that often pushes people not to take time off. Unlike many professions, I'm often expected to basically 'catch up' to some degree with everything I've missed or am behind on after taking off. Time off is more valuable to labor where the average unit of time to complete a desired amount of work is fairly small. For work that takes a lot of time to contribute too, you get no realized break, just a granted "delay" in deadlines.
yucky 4y ago
And yet the US leads the world in immigration every year, year after year. Economic migration to the US is a very real thing and is likely due to people in the US having the highest disposable income in the world.[1] Also, almost 2/3 Americans are on free or subsidized health insurance through Medicaid, Medicare, Tricare/VA etc. which have nothing to do with employment. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_capita_income https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_c...
- sudosysgen 4y ago
  This is a terrible metric. In basically half of the world immigration allowances are supply limited, not demand limited. If France wanted to import a similar fraction of immigrants as the US does tomorrow they could with the ink of a pen.
micromacrofoot 4y ago
even with the increased pay, I see people cite it as a purely temporary move: work in the US for a while when you're young, save some money, and go home

Ask anybody in France if they want to work in the U.S. Unless you're in tech or some other in demand field where the pay is a significant increase I doubt many would be willing to.

clement_b 4y ago

30 years ago people would have said yes perhaps (American dream), but now it has become apparent the US is a very broken country for ~90% of its population. It's actually shocking how bad it is when you think about fundamentals (health, food, security, education). We have many problems in France, they look like micro problems when looking at how painful it is for most to survive in the US.

unixhero 4y ago
The American dream, you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
Ma8ee 4y ago
Exactly! The US is great for the top few percent, but for the rest of the population they’d have a much better life in any Western European country.
- a-user-you-like 4y ago
  Just raise the minimum wage to $50 an hour, problem solved.
  - justinclift 4y ago
    Seems like inflation would then jump a fair bunch to match?
    - danw1979 4y ago
      Let’s try it and find out
    - Ma8ee 4y ago
      Some jobs would just disappear. No one is going to pay a greeter at Walmart $50 an hour.
      - graftak 4y ago
        Good because that is very creepy.
        Ma8ee 4y ago
        I agree. Jobs that isn’t possible to pay a living salary for don’t need to be done.
        a-user-you-like 4y ago
        People still need meaning on their life and plenty of money to support their family. Plenty of public works projects we could start and pay people $50/hr.
    - crooked-v 4y ago
      Jeff Bezos' daily income is about $175 million. Tax him at a marginal rate of 90% and that's about 1500 $50/hour workers compensated for right there.
      - jon_adler 4y ago
        Some people still believe in the fantasy of trickle down economics and the Laffer curve, so they push for lower corporate and marginal tax rates that help the wealthiest. The vast majority of people do not benefit as the money flows upwards and concentrates with the wealthiest over time. Some redistribution is needed to promote equality and fairness. Instead, what we have at the moment is a system where the wealthiest are able to avoid taxes and end up paying a lower marginal rate than the middle classes.
  - Swenrekcah 4y ago
    As has been pointed out elsewhere in the thread, most of the problems can be solved better by treating people with respect rather than raising minimum wage through the roof. By that I mean universal healthcare, guaranteed sick leave and childbirth leave as well as minimum 3-4 weeks vacation a year and a good unemployment system.
    - lnxg33k1 4y ago
      I agree with you, but let’s not rule out the wage issue, like it’s crazy that people need to work multiple jobs to make ends meet, but also finding dependable workers that take pride, that’s I think about respect, I am sorry but how I’m supposed to take pride if I do a job well done, then at the first issue the company is just going to lay me off to maximise bonus or dividends?
      - Swenrekcah 4y ago
        For sure, there is also one other thing I forgot to mention which is access to affordable (and not unhealthy) housing. With all those in place people wouldn’t be so dependent on their employer. I see a lot of FI/RE stories focusing on the importance of having fuck-you money in order to be able to stand up to your boss. Well if you live in a decent welfare society you can do that without $4M. This would in effect force employers to pay better.
      - mathw 4y ago
        I understand many places in the USA you can be legally fired for no reason and with no notice. That is surely harmful to the development of a sense of trust and loyalty towards one's employer.
    - ithkuil 4y ago
      All those things are absolutely necessary to raise to an objectively higher standard like that of western Europe. However, due to the hedonic treadmill, after people get accustomed to it and take things for granted, people will find reasons to be unhappy and frustrated and claim that they live in the worst possible times etc. EDIT: just to be clear: I'm not saying that since people will complain there is no point in improving, nor I'm saying that you don't have to listen people's complaints since they just don't know how lucky they are. It's important to keep improving more and more, since there is still room for improvement. What I'm saying is that it's hard to compare the quality of life in different places just by measuring how many people are complaining here or there.
  - imtringued 4y ago
    People will work for little money or even free if living expenses are low and they enjoy their job.
  - a-user-you-like 4y ago
    Why downvoted? Do people not care for the poorest?
spaceman_2020 4y ago
As an outsider, what boggles my mind the most about America right now isn’t healthcare or inequality. Its gun violence. Unreal that schools have active shooter training and no one seems to even care. The fact that there is a non-zero chance your kid might be shot at school is completely absurd.
- UberFly 4y ago
  Yea but nobody wants to work anymore.
  - polypodiopsi 4y ago
    Hahahaha
- cm2187 4y ago
  For school shootings, it’s rationally absurd to worry about those rare events. It’s like worrying about dying from a terrorist attack or a plane crash in France. The probability is mathematically non zero, and the country makes a big deal when that happens, but it is statistically a non problem. Being confronted with an armed robber in a home invasion is more of a problem in the US (but France has its own fair share of violent crime). Outside of that I think the bulk of gun violence is suicides and gang on gang violence.
  - scambier 4y ago
    "School shootings are mathematically irrelevant", what a take.
    - TheSpiceIsLife 4y ago
      Talk about normalisation of deviance! I've read that more children have died of gunshot wounds this year than police officers have died in the line of duty.[1] Granted, there are probably more school children at school than there are police at work on any given day, so ... of course children are more likely to be shot at a school? But then again, here in Australia we have reasonable gun control after that mass schooling in Tasmania all those years ago ... and the country still turned to shit ... so? While were here, anyone else got any arguments no one would intentionally make? 1. https://en.as.com/latest_news/more-children-have-died-in-school-shootings-in-2022-than-police-officers-in-the-line-of-duty-fact-check-n/ https://en.as.com/latest_news/more-children-have-died-in-sch...
School-Cotton 4y ago
The US is better than the median country in the world on all the metrics you list. Yes, it’s worse than France, which is part of Western Europe, the most developed and best-run part of the entire world.
- pavlov 4y ago
  The world has a lot of poor countries, so settling for “better than the median” is a very low bar. On the list of GDP per capita, the median countries are South Africa and Peru. If the US ever gets near the median on these global lists, it would be the result of a collapse worse than the Soviet Union’s.
  - School-Cotton 4y ago
    All of this is true. What’s your point?
  - imtringued 4y ago
    You're forgetting Ukraine.
- doteka 4y ago
  I guess being better than a random third-world country (yes, that’s what median means here) is seen as a great accomplishment? Not sure why you would choose to comment this, it’s like a grown adult bragging about being able to beat up a toddler.
  - School-Cotton 4y ago
    Why is your prior that the US should be doing better than third-world countries? Where did I claim it should be seen as a great accomplishment?
- polypodiopsi 4y ago
  https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2020/apr/06/coronavirus-american-reaction-economy-covid-19 https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/news/databl... The facts are as exhaustive as they are exhausting. There’s one simple conclusion from all of this. We’ve been tricked. We’ve been told that America, like most other majority-white countries, deserves the title “developed economy”. It does not. A bit polemic but an interesting perspective. Maybe it's just the case that the us IS a "third world' aka >developing county<
guggle 4y ago
> 30 years ago people would have said yes perhaps (American dream) I can relate to that... in the 80s USA was the dream for us kids. But now... I'm so glad I don't live there. France is indeed extremely generous. I wish more french people would realize this.
jollybean 4y ago
This is hyperbole. For most people, especially any French person who'd move to the US, all of those indicators are fine, and, income is considerably higher than in France, if not 'free time' and guaranteed access to healthcare. Yes, the food in many ways is not good, but it's fine. There is no 'security' problem - Manhattan is generally safer than Paris, and US has great educational institutions unless you live in a ghetto. It hasn't changed that much over 20 years other than what you see on TV. Attitudes towards work have changed, our material standard of living is considerably higher than it was 2 generations ago, and people are considerably less willing to do manual labour for example. Ironically, wages in semi skilled and skilled labour are actually not that bad. What we have now is a 'new white collar working class' - large swaths of people who went to college and have expectations they wouldn't be managing restaurants.
mushbino 4y ago
This is what happens in a country overtaken by corporations, unlimited campaign contributions, and profit above all else.

Bayart 4y ago

I often have a chuckle when I see US companies bragging about their « generous » policies which are systematically bellow the legal minimum in France. This being said, a lot of IT professionals here don't take all of their paid leave. It's not uncommon for me to see people forced into a vacation by their company so they don't get into legal trouble. I don't think they would mind working for a US company (I wouldn't). Working in the US is another thing, and very much an acquired taste.

Frost1x 4y ago
IT has indirect pressures that often pushes people not to take time off. Unlike many professions, I'm often expected to basically 'catch up' to some degree with everything I've missed or am behind on after taking off. Time off is more valuable to labor where the average unit of time to complete a desired amount of work is fairly small. For work that takes a lot of time to contribute too, you get no realized break, just a granted "delay" in deadlines.

yucky 4y ago

And yet the US leads the world in immigration every year, year after year. Economic migration to the US is a very real thing and is likely due to people in the US having the highest disposable income in the world.[1] Also, almost 2/3 Americans are on free or subsidized health insurance through Medicaid, Medicare, Tricare/VA etc. which have nothing to do with employment. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_capita_income https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_c...

sudosysgen 4y ago
This is a terrible metric. In basically half of the world immigration allowances are supply limited, not demand limited. If France wanted to import a similar fraction of immigrants as the US does tomorrow they could with the ink of a pen.

micromacrofoot 4y ago

even with the increased pay, I see people cite it as a purely temporary move: work in the US for a while when you're young, save some money, and go home