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I think I'd amend the piece a bit. Personally I think we're playing a high price for mobile phones. Granted, much of the harm is being done by social, but reall

by dmje 4y ago

I think I'd amend the piece a bit. Personally I think we're playing a high price for mobile phones. Granted, much of the harm is being done by social, but really it's the addictive nature, the "always on-ness" of this that concerns me the most, in all the reading, research and life experience I'm doing. My son, who is now 17, spends - I would imagine, he doesn't know because he's too frightened to switch on Screen Time - maybe 10-14 hours a day glued to his phone. He's now at an age where I have no agency over him - he's an adult in 6 months and he's got to figure out his own way - but it worries me. In his specific case I'm actually less worried than with many of his friends. He's bright, and uses the internet to figure out and watch some pretty rad stuff. It isn't all shit, and although a fair proportion of his use is Insta, it's using it as an instant messaging tool rather than a pure "social media" tool. He rarely posts, and I suspect may be different to his (female) friends in that regard. But here are the two points that are rarely talked about that are actually the most important ones to consider: First, if anyone was doing anything for 12 hours a day, it's probably an issue. If my kids played football for 12 hours a day, or made Lego, or cooked, I'd be concerned. It's just not healthy to be that ensconced in a thing, let alone when that thing is as hugely, highly addictive as phone use / social media. Even if that thing was the healthiest thing in the world - say someone I knew went out running for 12 hours a day - man, I'd be concerned. Secondly, it strikes me as "out there in the world" that this is the biggest issue. To me, as a 50 year old man, it's bloody weird anyone spending this much time online, but to be outdoors, or at a bar, or a restaurant with your partner, or looking after your kids, or looking at a sunset, or on the beach - and be constantly in your phone - this is insane. Living a life, a real life, with real relationships and real sunsets and real beaches - is an enormous privilege. Many of us are wasting it. Life is short. Leave your phone at home, and truly live it.

bumby 4y ago
I would be curious if those downvoting this could elaborate on their disagreement to help foster conversation
- dmje 4y ago
  Me too. Hilariously I got the first downvote about 10 seconds after posting it, not enough time for anyone to actually read my thoughts.. :-)
  - darkerside 4y ago
    The people who are on their phones 24/7 will read this as a dig. They're not the largest group, but statistically, they are most likely to get the first votes in on your comment.
  - pixl97 4y ago
  - indymike 4y ago
    It's a very good comment. Those early downvotes, when they happen to me seem to be out of whack - they are too fast to have read the comment, and often the comment isn't controversial, inaccurate, or negative in any way.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
indymike 4y ago
> 50 year old man, it's bloody weird anyone spending this much time online, but to be outdoors, or at a bar, or a restaurant with your partner, or looking after your kids, or looking at a sunset, or on the beach - and be constantly in your phone - this is insane. You have a great point here. Thinking about this. When I was young I spend an unnatural, lot of time in front of screens. Here is what I did: I learned BASIC, REXX, C, x86 assembler, Pascal, and Prolog. I learned to make software for a home comuputer, then for a real PC. It was productive, made money for me, and helped me develop a skillset that has resulted in six companies created, a couple hundred people having jobs, and a decent life for my family. I have exactly zero regrets for spending time with the computer. What if the device was a phone? You can't even create software for a mobile phone with the phone. I guess I would have consumed a lot of content, and posted a lot of videos. Maybe I'd be able to build an audience, and make some cash from my gofundme or patreon. Maybe. > Living a life, a real life, with real relationships and real sunsets and real beaches - is an enormous privilege. Many of us are wasting it. Life is short. Leave your phone at home, and truly live it. This is really great advice. Or at least delete all the distraction as a service apps. The best feature on a phone is the camera and maps app. One is for capturing and sharing memories, and the other is for finding your way to friends and adventure to make those memories.
- SiberianDweller 4y ago
  Yes, it's almost impossible to create software from smartphone. But it is possible to create some civil disorder, class action or at least a little shitstorm in Twitter.
- NalNezumi 4y ago
  It's easy now in retrospect to say "those hours glued in front of the PC turned out good" and jump to "but that's not the case for todays kids" with a rose tinted glass. It reminds me of something a friend told me about a youtuber called mister beast(or something); how in an interview he said he was practically raised with youtube as his sole life, spend all waking hours thinking "what would buzz on YouTube?" and not just him, he would talk about this with his fellow content creator, like they were obsessed. Afaik the guy is doing really well. Now replace "YouTube" with whatever programming language you mentioned and you can see a similar story. And the other side of your coin "glued in front of PC" is people like me who spent 16h a day of my Highschool year playing online games that lead to absolutely nothing except maybe a little bit better English knowledge. When you're looking at kids glued to the phone, you're looking at how the generation above me/us looked at me,and not you. And I think I'm in the majority of people that was glued in front of the PC; Nothing "productive" really came out of it
nemo44x 4y ago
> Personally I think we're playing a high price for mobile phones. I do sometimes wonder if Steve Jobs was the antichrist or devil, or whatever. Introduced the revolutionary smart phone complete with an icon of forbidden fruit with a bite taken from it. And then disappeared from Earth shortly after.
- cloutchaser 4y ago
  I’m surprised this is the first time I’ve heard this, at least the symbolic part of the bitten apple is pretty wierd. Did anyone ever talk about this seriously?
  - Karellen 4y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Inc.#Logo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Inc.#Logo Note that the logo was introduced in 1976, more than 30 years before the introduction of the iPhone.
    - cloutchaser 4y ago
      Ok, but it’s still really strange symbolism to pick.
      - Gare 4y ago
        The first logo was Newton with an apple over his head. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fa/Apple_first_logo.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fa/Apple_fi... And the bite was supposedly put in to identify the simplified logo as an apple, people thought it was a cherry.
  - formerkrogemp 4y ago
    Others have pointed this our before. It's strange how few people notice or know however.
- fritztastic 4y ago
  According to Western European culture, sure. Apparently people started thinking of it as an apple because of a choice in translation. Realistically, scholars believe the forbidden fruit referred to is a pomegranate- because geographically it makes more sense. Apples originally come from the region around Kazakhstan- much further East than where the garden of Eden was supposedly located. Some people also think it was a fig. Ultimately the way it was originally written, it's impossible to know for sure but it's unlikely that it was an apple. I don't know about the choice for logo and intent behind the symbol, but I find the geographic origins of plants interesting.
nabla9 4y ago
Great points. Earlier generations grew up in the front of television (or PC) but even if you spend 3-6 hours per day watching television, once you are not in front of it, you are separated. Now people are experiencing every moment in their life with a mobile phone. Some people feel "walking naked" -type anxiety without a phone even for a short term. Just recently I saw a person forgetting to take the phone into a trip to a nearby shop (20-30 minute trip max). They turn around at 5 minute point instead of going trough the trip without a phone.
- lapcat 4y ago
  > Some people feel "walking naked" -type anxiety without a phone even for a short term. I've started to take long walks deliberately without my smartphone, and it feels very liberating. I had always brought it along "just in case", but no case has ever actually arisen. I realized that it was just fear, and before smartphones were ubiquitous, I used to go around all the time without one and without fear. I enjoy having that feeling again.
  - nradov 4y ago
    For some people a smart watch with LTE connectivity can be a useful middle ground. The screen is too small to really use for anything interactive, but you can still call for help in an emergency.
    - lapcat 4y ago
      This would defeat the purpose of leaving the smartphone at home, which is to not live in fear of an unlikely emergency.
      - nradov 4y ago
        There's a difference between living in fear versus taking prudent precautions. I've never had a fire in my house and I'm not particularly afraid of fires, but I keep fire extinguishers on hand. I do a lot of running and cycling, and I've had to use my cell phone to call emergency services several times to assist others.
cloutchaser 4y ago
> First, if anyone was doing anything for 12 hours a day, it's probably an issue. If my kids played football for 12 hours a day, or made Lego, or cooked, I'd be concerned. But in a way using your phone is not the same activity for 12 hours. You could be doing multiple different things from gaming to social media to educational videos. So I don’t think this is a fair comparison.
- acdha 4y ago
  This is somewhat true but at least from an ergonomic standpoint it’s the same - which matters a lot for things like RSI or vision – and it’s often also the same from the perspective of chasing that “new stuff” stimulus. It’s not really healthy if you’re switching from the average phone game to IG/TikTok and back.
liberia 4y ago
Rather than cut out social media entirely it’s worth taking a break from it and then rejoining the fray once you’re calm and have enjoyed the more simple things in life (Sunsets, swimming in lakes, playing with your dog etc). Just like any drug, social media has a law of diminishing returns. There’s even people doing ‘dopamine starving’ to address their addictions. Worth trying.
nonrandomstring 4y ago
The price we pay is different according to viewpoint/scale. Individual impacts are to eyesight, posture, mental health, concentration, cardio-vascular fitness and so on. Interpersonal relationships are affected in a different way, dissolving the bonds of meaningful friendship and family ties. At the societal level we experience unrest, radicalisition, corrosion of democracy and shared values. I've tried to document the evolution and psychology of this in Digital Vegan [1]. Many supporting papers can be found here in the "ledger of digital harms" [2] [1] https://digitalvegan.net https://digitalvegan.net [2] https://ledger.humanetech.com/ https://ledger.humanetech.com/
actionablefiber 4y ago
> My son, who is now 17, spends - I would imagine, he doesn't know because he's too frightened to switch on Screen Time - maybe 10-14 hours a day glued to his phone. He's now at an age where I have no agency over him - he's an adult in 6 months and he's got to figure out his own way - but it worries me. I have to ask, do you live in the suburbs? I was in a similar place as your son growing up, I had an extreme screen addiction (although some of it was productive). There was nothing to do or see within several miles of home and I was dependent on my parents for transportation, which added enough friction that I didn't really even know where to begin when it came to making friends or planning outings beyond school. It was just significantly easier to stay at home playing video games or surfing online all the time, and that habit spilled over into anything I did outside the house as well. That all changed when I moved somewhere walkable with good transit/bike infrastructure.
- gernb 4y ago
  I know things are different now but I grew up in the suburbs and yet went all kinds of places. Got my driver's license at 16. Parents let me borrow one car or another all the time. Even before that though, rode bikes all over. This, even though I was a nerd making programs on home computers. We didn't have the internet or even BBSes though. We did have video games.
- dazc 4y ago
  I was just thinking the same. I live 10 minutes away from the coast and have just enjoyed a few hours sat by the beach where most people were sunbathing, paddle boarding, taking a dip, etc. I didn't notice anyone gazing at their smartphone. As a kid I lived inland and a casual trip to the beach just wasn't an option. I look back and remember a lot of boring Sundays where the option of staring at a phone screen all day would have been a luxury.
  - shapefrog 4y ago
    Beach trips these days are normally for the gram not for the day at the beach. https://fun107.com/dads-embarrassing-their-daughters-in-the-most-epic-way-video/ https://fun107.com/dads-embarrassing-their-daughters-in-the-...
paulryanrogers 4y ago
This comes off as judgemental and condescending. I'm not much younger and came of age just before PDAs and smartphones changed the world. My life was and is full of other activities, yet I now use the phone hours per day. And it is an enhancement in most every way: language translation (bilingual household), security (MFA and a deterant when out late alone), news, fact checking, broader social network (albeit some "only" virtual), communication with distant friends and family, learning home improvement, a safe escape when feeling overwhelmed by extroverts, etc. Past generations were probably pearl clutching over people with their faces in a book or newspaper "constantly". "Get back to working in the factory!" 12h per day until you die. "Look up at this beautiful scenery on our hike!" Same as the past 3 hours of scenery. Of course the solution is to stigmatize these worthless book worms! /s Cut the kids some slack, they are exploring both a physical and virtual world. The former of which they often have little control or freedom. (Depending on parents, peers, and local culture.) My hope is smart glasses or contacts will become more capable and accepted. Then we can enjoy the benefits and the "real" world together more seamlessly. Isn't that what all tools are for, to enhance our lives?
- abhaynayar 4y ago
  I didn't feel it was judgemental or condescending at all. Can you quote exactly what about it felt that way to you? As for the generational differences, I agree to some extent. But we can't stop thinking about it at that point... Just because older generations complain about newer generations, doesn't mean we stop thinking about non generational factors. These technologies have taken over the world in the last few decades. Our brains have been the same for at least 100,000 years. We need to be more vigilant about the negative effects of disruptive and exponentially growing technologies. It's good to wield the positive side of technology (translation, security, facts, communication). But that's not the problem. The problem is companies who are creating algorithms that can easily overpower our human brain. Their incentives are not aligned with the mental health and well-being of society.
- skeeter2020 4y ago
  Here's the difference though: you take exception and list a diverse set of uses where your phone helps. That doesn't reflect the relatity of how people use their phones though; it's a collection of apps around social media and an evolving selection of ad-supported, click-to-win games with short lifetimes. Your inclusion of "fact checking" is actually kind of funny, as the limited sources used by almost everyone could be termed more "opinion entrenching". >> Cut the kids some slack, they are exploring both a physical and virtual world If this was true I wouldn't have a lot of valid objections but coming out of 2 years of Covid distancing it's just not reality. >> Isn't that what all tools are for, to enhance our lives? That's what you want from them, but is that what social networks are delivering?
tremon 4y ago
doing anything for 12 hours a day But there's a problem with multifunctional devices like computers and smartphones: it's highly unlikely he's doing the same thing for those 12 hours. Obviously I don't know exactly what your son is doing, but I think it's highly unlikely those 12 hours are filled with a single activity. And in that case, grouping all those activities as "spending time on phone" is less helpful than you think. Taking my adult self as an example: on work days, I use the computer for more than 12 hours a day, easily. That time is divided between coding, research, monitoring existing systems, communicating with team members, having meetings, reading news sites (for various definitions of "news"), watching movies, and listening to music.
- skeeter2020 4y ago
  >> it's highly unlikely he's doing the same thing for those 12 hours This may seem like a safe assumption but if we abstract to the core of "continually monitoring a loose network of 3+ degrees removed people for fear of missing out" I don't think they are doing anything diverse with their phones. Your own use of a computer is far different: kids and young adults are doing no coding; research (beyond asking Siri random, shallow questions); or monitoring, communicating, meeting, media consumption outside of these social networks. The homogeneous, consumption-focused all-consuming aspects are my real concerns. It's the Fentanyl of the 3-channel TV universe that I grew up with.
  - bonoboTP 4y ago
    That nitpick is a bit like when people say BMI is invalid as an indicator for overweightness because bodybuilders are also categorized as obese by BMI. Except the confusion is impossible in case of a regular person. Similarly, there can be good reasons for being 12 hours on screens, but it will be obvious and exceptional. Yes an 18 year old may be a successful entrepreneur, video maker podcast host influencer who is reading ebooks for research or sending out emails or editing videos or programming a website in those hours but we are clearly not talking about that, but FOMO social media scrolling. There can be good reasons for hyperobsessing over a single issue in life, but you better have a damn good reason for it, like being a successful athlete or chess player or e-sport player or whatever. And it will still be a sacrifice that's only worth it if you are truly exceptional and there's a high chance you aren't. The question is, are those hours bringing an improvement to your life, are they bringing you closer to achieving meaningful life goals or are they a distraction from focus and life organization, and a suppression of quality of life and achievement.
stevenjgarner 4y ago
> First, if anyone was doing anything for 12 hours a day, it's probably an issue. A good yardstick, but it depends on the activity. 12 hours on SnapChat daily => probably excessive. There are days when I have hiked 12 hours a day (definitely excessive!). The difficulty with a phone is the myriad uses a phone has in our lives. GPS-mapping (not just for driving, cycling or walking, but for hiking too - e.g. alltrails.com), star-gazing/charting at night, creative writing, recording/listening to music, programming (yeah using ssh apps), photography, video, email, texting, audiobooks (as a traveling executive, I often drive 5+ hours using G-Maps, while I am listening to an audiobook, while I get interrupted with dozens of phone calls), health/fitness/workout monitoring, sleep apps, games, banking/finance/credit, monitoring my home/AirBnB's etc, boarding passes, Uber, shopping, way too many hours on HN, you get the idea. As has been said, we are cybernetic organisms, and the mobile phone is an extension of us (soon one day inside us). Whether we use it to enrich the diversity of our lives or to dumb-down and become mono-active, I think that is the issue.
ren_engineer 4y ago
social media is a supernormal stimulus, our brains didn't adapted to deal with it or the companies that are constantly iterating to make it more addictive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernormal_stimulus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernormal_stimulus it isn't much different from some of the crazy increases in potency of actual drugs and the negative impacts on society are similar >He's now at an age where I have no agency over him - he's an adult in 6 months and he's got to figure out his own way I'm close to your kids age and I think this is a bad mindset, young adults still need guidance. You have an obligation to give advice even if it makes him mad. Unless he is completely financially independent you are owed some respect
mellavora 4y ago
I try to observe a computer/smartphone sabbath from friday evening to saturday evening. It is hard, because I keep thinking of things I could do on my computer. It has eaten that much of my life. The forced abstinence is an eye-opener.
winternett 4y ago
It's mobile phone manufacturers and OS developers that make devices that collect our data and grant access to that information to apps. The biggest point where data collection needs to be properly addressed is at this level. If there is no Lidar feature accessible in a phone, then TikTok can't get information on how many people are sitting in your living room with you. The problem is that people are not educating themselves, paying attention to proper technology issues, and taking the right actions because they're so busy trying to make personal profit... The "giant social media monopoly" ship is sinking fast, everyone is trying to loot the gold stored in the ship's hull, not realizing that that's exactly the extra weight that will also sink their escape boat.
fairity 4y ago
> Living a life, a real life, with real relationships and real sunsets and real beaches - is an enormous privilege. Many of us are wasting it. Leave your phone at home, and truly live You seem to have found a mode of life that's been deeply satisfying, which is great to hear. However, you now seem to want to impose your 'how' on others. If your goal is to help others, they'll be much more receptive if you focus on the 'why' instead of 'how'. If you inspect the reasons 'why' your life has been so satisfying, you'll arrive at a set of values that you can share with your son & his friends. Then, they can take these values and figure out 'how' to achieve them given the new world they're growing up in. Using this approach, I think you may be surprised that there are a myriad of approaches to achieve your values in the 'digital' world as well as the 'real' world. And, as such, there are many ways of 'truly living' in addition to yours.
jasonladuke0311 4y ago
> Secondly, it strikes me as "out there in the world" that this is the biggest issue. To me, as a 50 year old man, it's bloody weird anyone spending this much time online, but to be outdoors, or at a bar, or a restaurant with your partner, or looking after your kids, or looking at a sunset, or on the beach - and be constantly in your phone - this is insane. This is one of the few things I’m confident I’m doing well as a dad and husband. We don’t use our phones when out to dinner or doing family activities. I don’t set “rules” about it; we just have a shared understanding as a family that these times should be spent together, not off in the clouds.
deepsquirrelnet 4y ago
> real beaches Several years ago, there I was, on an incredibly beautiful beach in the bay of Thailand. The sun was warm, the water was mild and below the surface were a great number of vividly-colored creatures. As I sat on the white sand, appreciating every moment I observed two beautiful French-speaking women rent snorkeling equipment and proceed to the water. They walked in, not much more than knee deep, and posed for some cellphone photography in the snorkeling gear. After getting the photos they wanted, they returned the gear and left. I thought about how funny it was to be witnessing social media happening in real life. The veil is so real to those who don’t get to see behind it. When you do, it’s sad, and something to be pitied. The dream those women were selling didn’t even exist for them. They didn’t enjoy the beach. They didn’t swim out to see the incredible ocean creatures. It existed for me. Average me was living their best life that day. I did the things they wanted people to believe they were doing, and they didn’t. It’s really fascinating social behavior. My conclusion is essentially that social media creates a sort of fantasy that perfection is just barely out of reach… and feeding the addiction of continually moving onto the next thing, hoping to find it. It’s probably the same reason people become serial online daters, and the reason for the success of those platforms. It causes people to become inflexible toward enjoyment or appreciation of reality… even in cases where reality is pretty damn near perfect.

by dmje 4y ago

bumby 4y ago

I would be curious if those downvoting this could elaborate on their disagreement to help foster conversation

dmje 4y ago
Me too. Hilariously I got the first downvote about 10 seconds after posting it, not enough time for anyone to actually read my thoughts.. :-)
- darkerside 4y ago
  The people who are on their phones 24/7 will read this as a dig. They're not the largest group, but statistically, they are most likely to get the first votes in on your comment.
- pixl97 4y ago
- indymike 4y ago
  It's a very good comment. Those early downvotes, when they happen to me seem to be out of whack - they are too fast to have read the comment, and often the comment isn't controversial, inaccurate, or negative in any way.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

indymike 4y ago

> 50 year old man, it's bloody weird anyone spending this much time online, but to be outdoors, or at a bar, or a restaurant with your partner, or looking after your kids, or looking at a sunset, or on the beach - and be constantly in your phone - this is insane. You have a great point here. Thinking about this. When I was young I spend an unnatural, lot of time in front of screens. Here is what I did: I learned BASIC, REXX, C, x86 assembler, Pascal, and Prolog. I learned to make software for a home comuputer, then for a real PC. It was productive, made money for me, and helped me develop a skillset that has resulted in six companies created, a couple hundred people having jobs, and a decent life for my family. I have exactly zero regrets for spending time with the computer. What if the device was a phone? You can't even create software for a mobile phone with the phone. I guess I would have consumed a lot of content, and posted a lot of videos. Maybe I'd be able to build an audience, and make some cash from my gofundme or patreon. Maybe. > Living a life, a real life, with real relationships and real sunsets and real beaches - is an enormous privilege. Many of us are wasting it. Life is short. Leave your phone at home, and truly live it. This is really great advice. Or at least delete all the distraction as a service apps. The best feature on a phone is the camera and maps app. One is for capturing and sharing memories, and the other is for finding your way to friends and adventure to make those memories.

SiberianDweller 4y ago
Yes, it's almost impossible to create software from smartphone. But it is possible to create some civil disorder, class action or at least a little shitstorm in Twitter.
NalNezumi 4y ago
It's easy now in retrospect to say "those hours glued in front of the PC turned out good" and jump to "but that's not the case for todays kids" with a rose tinted glass. It reminds me of something a friend told me about a youtuber called mister beast(or something); how in an interview he said he was practically raised with youtube as his sole life, spend all waking hours thinking "what would buzz on YouTube?" and not just him, he would talk about this with his fellow content creator, like they were obsessed. Afaik the guy is doing really well. Now replace "YouTube" with whatever programming language you mentioned and you can see a similar story. And the other side of your coin "glued in front of PC" is people like me who spent 16h a day of my Highschool year playing online games that lead to absolutely nothing except maybe a little bit better English knowledge. When you're looking at kids glued to the phone, you're looking at how the generation above me/us looked at me,and not you. And I think I'm in the majority of people that was glued in front of the PC; Nothing "productive" really came out of it

nemo44x 4y ago

> Personally I think we're playing a high price for mobile phones. I do sometimes wonder if Steve Jobs was the antichrist or devil, or whatever. Introduced the revolutionary smart phone complete with an icon of forbidden fruit with a bite taken from it. And then disappeared from Earth shortly after.

cloutchaser 4y ago
I’m surprised this is the first time I’ve heard this, at least the symbolic part of the bitten apple is pretty wierd. Did anyone ever talk about this seriously?
- Karellen 4y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Inc.#Logo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Inc.#Logo Note that the logo was introduced in 1976, more than 30 years before the introduction of the iPhone.
  - cloutchaser 4y ago
    Ok, but it’s still really strange symbolism to pick.
    - Gare 4y ago
      The first logo was Newton with an apple over his head. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fa/Apple_first_logo.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fa/Apple_fi... And the bite was supposedly put in to identify the simplified logo as an apple, people thought it was a cherry.
- formerkrogemp 4y ago
  Others have pointed this our before. It's strange how few people notice or know however.
fritztastic 4y ago
According to Western European culture, sure. Apparently people started thinking of it as an apple because of a choice in translation. Realistically, scholars believe the forbidden fruit referred to is a pomegranate- because geographically it makes more sense. Apples originally come from the region around Kazakhstan- much further East than where the garden of Eden was supposedly located. Some people also think it was a fig. Ultimately the way it was originally written, it's impossible to know for sure but it's unlikely that it was an apple. I don't know about the choice for logo and intent behind the symbol, but I find the geographic origins of plants interesting.

nabla9 4y ago

Great points. Earlier generations grew up in the front of television (or PC) but even if you spend 3-6 hours per day watching television, once you are not in front of it, you are separated. Now people are experiencing every moment in their life with a mobile phone. Some people feel "walking naked" -type anxiety without a phone even for a short term. Just recently I saw a person forgetting to take the phone into a trip to a nearby shop (20-30 minute trip max). They turn around at 5 minute point instead of going trough the trip without a phone.

lapcat 4y ago
> Some people feel "walking naked" -type anxiety without a phone even for a short term. I've started to take long walks deliberately without my smartphone, and it feels very liberating. I had always brought it along "just in case", but no case has ever actually arisen. I realized that it was just fear, and before smartphones were ubiquitous, I used to go around all the time without one and without fear. I enjoy having that feeling again.
- nradov 4y ago
  For some people a smart watch with LTE connectivity can be a useful middle ground. The screen is too small to really use for anything interactive, but you can still call for help in an emergency.
  - lapcat 4y ago
    This would defeat the purpose of leaving the smartphone at home, which is to not live in fear of an unlikely emergency.
    - nradov 4y ago
      There's a difference between living in fear versus taking prudent precautions. I've never had a fire in my house and I'm not particularly afraid of fires, but I keep fire extinguishers on hand. I do a lot of running and cycling, and I've had to use my cell phone to call emergency services several times to assist others.

cloutchaser 4y ago

> First, if anyone was doing anything for 12 hours a day, it's probably an issue. If my kids played football for 12 hours a day, or made Lego, or cooked, I'd be concerned. But in a way using your phone is not the same activity for 12 hours. You could be doing multiple different things from gaming to social media to educational videos. So I don’t think this is a fair comparison.

acdha 4y ago
This is somewhat true but at least from an ergonomic standpoint it’s the same - which matters a lot for things like RSI or vision – and it’s often also the same from the perspective of chasing that “new stuff” stimulus. It’s not really healthy if you’re switching from the average phone game to IG/TikTok and back.

liberia 4y ago

Rather than cut out social media entirely it’s worth taking a break from it and then rejoining the fray once you’re calm and have enjoyed the more simple things in life (Sunsets, swimming in lakes, playing with your dog etc). Just like any drug, social media has a law of diminishing returns. There’s even people doing ‘dopamine starving’ to address their addictions. Worth trying.

nonrandomstring 4y ago

The price we pay is different according to viewpoint/scale. Individual impacts are to eyesight, posture, mental health, concentration, cardio-vascular fitness and so on. Interpersonal relationships are affected in a different way, dissolving the bonds of meaningful friendship and family ties. At the societal level we experience unrest, radicalisition, corrosion of democracy and shared values. I've tried to document the evolution and psychology of this in Digital Vegan [1]. Many supporting papers can be found here in the "ledger of digital harms" [2] [1] https://digitalvegan.net https://digitalvegan.net [2] https://ledger.humanetech.com/ https://ledger.humanetech.com/

actionablefiber 4y ago

> My son, who is now 17, spends - I would imagine, he doesn't know because he's too frightened to switch on Screen Time - maybe 10-14 hours a day glued to his phone. He's now at an age where I have no agency over him - he's an adult in 6 months and he's got to figure out his own way - but it worries me. I have to ask, do you live in the suburbs? I was in a similar place as your son growing up, I had an extreme screen addiction (although some of it was productive). There was nothing to do or see within several miles of home and I was dependent on my parents for transportation, which added enough friction that I didn't really even know where to begin when it came to making friends or planning outings beyond school. It was just significantly easier to stay at home playing video games or surfing online all the time, and that habit spilled over into anything I did outside the house as well. That all changed when I moved somewhere walkable with good transit/bike infrastructure.

gernb 4y ago
I know things are different now but I grew up in the suburbs and yet went all kinds of places. Got my driver's license at 16. Parents let me borrow one car or another all the time. Even before that though, rode bikes all over. This, even though I was a nerd making programs on home computers. We didn't have the internet or even BBSes though. We did have video games.
dazc 4y ago
I was just thinking the same. I live 10 minutes away from the coast and have just enjoyed a few hours sat by the beach where most people were sunbathing, paddle boarding, taking a dip, etc. I didn't notice anyone gazing at their smartphone. As a kid I lived inland and a casual trip to the beach just wasn't an option. I look back and remember a lot of boring Sundays where the option of staring at a phone screen all day would have been a luxury.
- shapefrog 4y ago
  Beach trips these days are normally for the gram not for the day at the beach. https://fun107.com/dads-embarrassing-their-daughters-in-the-most-epic-way-video/ https://fun107.com/dads-embarrassing-their-daughters-in-the-...

paulryanrogers 4y ago

This comes off as judgemental and condescending. I'm not much younger and came of age just before PDAs and smartphones changed the world. My life was and is full of other activities, yet I now use the phone hours per day. And it is an enhancement in most every way: language translation (bilingual household), security (MFA and a deterant when out late alone), news, fact checking, broader social network (albeit some "only" virtual), communication with distant friends and family, learning home improvement, a safe escape when feeling overwhelmed by extroverts, etc. Past generations were probably pearl clutching over people with their faces in a book or newspaper "constantly". "Get back to working in the factory!" 12h per day until you die. "Look up at this beautiful scenery on our hike!" Same as the past 3 hours of scenery. Of course the solution is to stigmatize these worthless book worms! /s Cut the kids some slack, they are exploring both a physical and virtual world. The former of which they often have little control or freedom. (Depending on parents, peers, and local culture.) My hope is smart glasses or contacts will become more capable and accepted. Then we can enjoy the benefits and the "real" world together more seamlessly. Isn't that what all tools are for, to enhance our lives?

abhaynayar 4y ago
I didn't feel it was judgemental or condescending at all. Can you quote exactly what about it felt that way to you? As for the generational differences, I agree to some extent. But we can't stop thinking about it at that point... Just because older generations complain about newer generations, doesn't mean we stop thinking about non generational factors. These technologies have taken over the world in the last few decades. Our brains have been the same for at least 100,000 years. We need to be more vigilant about the negative effects of disruptive and exponentially growing technologies. It's good to wield the positive side of technology (translation, security, facts, communication). But that's not the problem. The problem is companies who are creating algorithms that can easily overpower our human brain. Their incentives are not aligned with the mental health and well-being of society.
skeeter2020 4y ago
Here's the difference though: you take exception and list a diverse set of uses where your phone helps. That doesn't reflect the relatity of how people use their phones though; it's a collection of apps around social media and an evolving selection of ad-supported, click-to-win games with short lifetimes. Your inclusion of "fact checking" is actually kind of funny, as the limited sources used by almost everyone could be termed more "opinion entrenching". >> Cut the kids some slack, they are exploring both a physical and virtual world If this was true I wouldn't have a lot of valid objections but coming out of 2 years of Covid distancing it's just not reality. >> Isn't that what all tools are for, to enhance our lives? That's what you want from them, but is that what social networks are delivering?

tremon 4y ago

doing anything for 12 hours a day But there's a problem with multifunctional devices like computers and smartphones: it's highly unlikely he's doing the same thing for those 12 hours. Obviously I don't know exactly what your son is doing, but I think it's highly unlikely those 12 hours are filled with a single activity. And in that case, grouping all those activities as "spending time on phone" is less helpful than you think. Taking my adult self as an example: on work days, I use the computer for more than 12 hours a day, easily. That time is divided between coding, research, monitoring existing systems, communicating with team members, having meetings, reading news sites (for various definitions of "news"), watching movies, and listening to music.

skeeter2020 4y ago
>> it's highly unlikely he's doing the same thing for those 12 hours This may seem like a safe assumption but if we abstract to the core of "continually monitoring a loose network of 3+ degrees removed people for fear of missing out" I don't think they are doing anything diverse with their phones. Your own use of a computer is far different: kids and young adults are doing no coding; research (beyond asking Siri random, shallow questions); or monitoring, communicating, meeting, media consumption outside of these social networks. The homogeneous, consumption-focused all-consuming aspects are my real concerns. It's the Fentanyl of the 3-channel TV universe that I grew up with.
- bonoboTP 4y ago
  That nitpick is a bit like when people say BMI is invalid as an indicator for overweightness because bodybuilders are also categorized as obese by BMI. Except the confusion is impossible in case of a regular person. Similarly, there can be good reasons for being 12 hours on screens, but it will be obvious and exceptional. Yes an 18 year old may be a successful entrepreneur, video maker podcast host influencer who is reading ebooks for research or sending out emails or editing videos or programming a website in those hours but we are clearly not talking about that, but FOMO social media scrolling. There can be good reasons for hyperobsessing over a single issue in life, but you better have a damn good reason for it, like being a successful athlete or chess player or e-sport player or whatever. And it will still be a sacrifice that's only worth it if you are truly exceptional and there's a high chance you aren't. The question is, are those hours bringing an improvement to your life, are they bringing you closer to achieving meaningful life goals or are they a distraction from focus and life organization, and a suppression of quality of life and achievement.

stevenjgarner 4y ago

> First, if anyone was doing anything for 12 hours a day, it's probably an issue. A good yardstick, but it depends on the activity. 12 hours on SnapChat daily => probably excessive. There are days when I have hiked 12 hours a day (definitely excessive!). The difficulty with a phone is the myriad uses a phone has in our lives. GPS-mapping (not just for driving, cycling or walking, but for hiking too - e.g. alltrails.com), star-gazing/charting at night, creative writing, recording/listening to music, programming (yeah using ssh apps), photography, video, email, texting, audiobooks (as a traveling executive, I often drive 5+ hours using G-Maps, while I am listening to an audiobook, while I get interrupted with dozens of phone calls), health/fitness/workout monitoring, sleep apps, games, banking/finance/credit, monitoring my home/AirBnB's etc, boarding passes, Uber, shopping, way too many hours on HN, you get the idea. As has been said, we are cybernetic organisms, and the mobile phone is an extension of us (soon one day inside us). Whether we use it to enrich the diversity of our lives or to dumb-down and become mono-active, I think that is the issue.

ren_engineer 4y ago

social media is a supernormal stimulus, our brains didn't adapted to deal with it or the companies that are constantly iterating to make it more addictive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernormal_stimulus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernormal_stimulus it isn't much different from some of the crazy increases in potency of actual drugs and the negative impacts on society are similar >He's now at an age where I have no agency over him - he's an adult in 6 months and he's got to figure out his own way I'm close to your kids age and I think this is a bad mindset, young adults still need guidance. You have an obligation to give advice even if it makes him mad. Unless he is completely financially independent you are owed some respect

mellavora 4y ago

I try to observe a computer/smartphone sabbath from friday evening to saturday evening. It is hard, because I keep thinking of things I could do on my computer. It has eaten that much of my life. The forced abstinence is an eye-opener.

winternett 4y ago

It's mobile phone manufacturers and OS developers that make devices that collect our data and grant access to that information to apps. The biggest point where data collection needs to be properly addressed is at this level. If there is no Lidar feature accessible in a phone, then TikTok can't get information on how many people are sitting in your living room with you. The problem is that people are not educating themselves, paying attention to proper technology issues, and taking the right actions because they're so busy trying to make personal profit... The "giant social media monopoly" ship is sinking fast, everyone is trying to loot the gold stored in the ship's hull, not realizing that that's exactly the extra weight that will also sink their escape boat.

fairity 4y ago

> Living a life, a real life, with real relationships and real sunsets and real beaches - is an enormous privilege. Many of us are wasting it. Leave your phone at home, and truly live You seem to have found a mode of life that's been deeply satisfying, which is great to hear. However, you now seem to want to impose your 'how' on others. If your goal is to help others, they'll be much more receptive if you focus on the 'why' instead of 'how'. If you inspect the reasons 'why' your life has been so satisfying, you'll arrive at a set of values that you can share with your son & his friends. Then, they can take these values and figure out 'how' to achieve them given the new world they're growing up in. Using this approach, I think you may be surprised that there are a myriad of approaches to achieve your values in the 'digital' world as well as the 'real' world. And, as such, there are many ways of 'truly living' in addition to yours.

jasonladuke0311 4y ago

> Secondly, it strikes me as "out there in the world" that this is the biggest issue. To me, as a 50 year old man, it's bloody weird anyone spending this much time online, but to be outdoors, or at a bar, or a restaurant with your partner, or looking after your kids, or looking at a sunset, or on the beach - and be constantly in your phone - this is insane. This is one of the few things I’m confident I’m doing well as a dad and husband. We don’t use our phones when out to dinner or doing family activities. I don’t set “rules” about it; we just have a shared understanding as a family that these times should be spent together, not off in the clouds.

deepsquirrelnet 4y ago

> real beaches Several years ago, there I was, on an incredibly beautiful beach in the bay of Thailand. The sun was warm, the water was mild and below the surface were a great number of vividly-colored creatures. As I sat on the white sand, appreciating every moment I observed two beautiful French-speaking women rent snorkeling equipment and proceed to the water. They walked in, not much more than knee deep, and posed for some cellphone photography in the snorkeling gear. After getting the photos they wanted, they returned the gear and left. I thought about how funny it was to be witnessing social media happening in real life. The veil is so real to those who don’t get to see behind it. When you do, it’s sad, and something to be pitied. The dream those women were selling didn’t even exist for them. They didn’t enjoy the beach. They didn’t swim out to see the incredible ocean creatures. It existed for me. Average me was living their best life that day. I did the things they wanted people to believe they were doing, and they didn’t. It’s really fascinating social behavior. My conclusion is essentially that social media creates a sort of fantasy that perfection is just barely out of reach… and feeding the addiction of continually moving onto the next thing, hoping to find it. It’s probably the same reason people become serial online daters, and the reason for the success of those platforms. It causes people to become inflexible toward enjoyment or appreciation of reality… even in cases where reality is pretty damn near perfect.