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Note, many companies are required by security policies (which are themselves required due to regulators or customers that demand it) to immediately cut off acce

Note, many companies are required by security policies (which are themselves required due to regulators or customers that demand it) to immediately cut off access to employees for all services before notice of termination. That's a really rough thing in terms of a human relationship, but there's a lot of reasons why that is the case in practice.

fendy3002 4y ago
Why is it a rough thing in terms of a human relationship? It's good that by revoking all access, both parties can confirm it before termination and the terminated employee is free from any responsibilities for something related with their access which happens in the future.
- nullityrofl 4y ago
  Exactly this: it's bidirectional protection.
- taneq 4y ago
  It’s the “before notice” thing. Finding out you were fired by getting to work one day and not being able to open the door is rough.
  - fendy3002 4y ago
    Ah right, missed the "before notice" while I read "before termination" before. My bad. It's true that sometimes it's needed to prevent further damage and agree it's a rough thing in human relationship.
  - tyingq 4y ago
    The middle of the day perp-walk style is also shitty. Why they don't think about how things feel to people I don't know.
    - denkmoon 4y ago
      Well presumably because it doesn't really matter. The type of org that will do that is the type of org where employees are a widget, to be added, replaced or removed as required for the machine to operate. Anyone comfortable with working in such a situation must acknowledge that the org does not care about their feelings, why would that suddenly change during the termination process?
      - XorNot 4y ago
        This is recent knowledge though which only became commonplace after Millenials entered the workforce. There is still an army of people out there who are teaching their kids completely antiquated labor relations knowledge under the delusion that a job can be "for life" these days. There are people in their 50s and 60s who are learning the hard way (particularly in 2020-2021) how much their company doesn't actually care about them.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
MrBuddyCasino 4y ago
> a lot of reasons why that is the case in practice Then why isn' it the case in eg Germany. Whats different.
- rob74 4y ago
  What's different in Germany (and most other European countries) is that there are legal requirements to give Y weeks of notice if someone has worked in the company for X years. Also, for layoffs ("betriebsbedingte Kündigung") there are certain rules that have to be followed, i.e. people who were hired later are generally the first on the chopping block, plus other criteria. What's not different is that most of the time you will be shown the door as quickly as possible. You get your notice time, and you get paid until your actual termination date, but you spend that time at home ("freigestellt").
  - kqr 4y ago
    My experience in Sweden has been that employees are in normal circumstances trusted to work faithfully during their full notice period of three months. There's an informal understanding that one might not be as productive during those three months, but not that one would be actively malicious. Seems crazy to hire people in the first place that you don't trust!
    - MrBuddyCasino 4y ago
      This is what I was getting at - the US seems to have a hostile relationship between employees and employers. I suspect this is mostly due to legal regulations and not necessarily due to a mistrusting culture per se, but I don't really know.
  - chrisseaton 4y ago
    > You get your notice time, and you get paid until your actual termination date, but you spend that time at home ("freigestellt"). Isn’t the US model of severance pay better because you can take a new job while in your severance period.
photochemsyn 4y ago
I understand the reasoning, but then shouldn't someone leaving a job voluntarily just stop showing up without any warning as well? This would avoid problems such as retaliation by the employer, etc. It's rather strange that employees are expected to give advanced notice when quitting, but employers are not expected to give advanced notice when firing people.
- bushbaba 4y ago
  In most US states, you do not need to give any notice to your employer when quitting. However not giving notice can burn a future bridge. Similar to how a poorly done layoff, (such-as coinbase) can prevent talented candidates from considering the company.
  - oarabbus_ 4y ago
    >Similar to how a poorly done layoff, (such-as coinbase) Coinbase offered 3.5 months' severance pay minimum, plus additional severance pay based on employee tenure. If that's a poorly done layoff, what's a well-done one?
    - rot13xor 4y ago
      I think the bigger problem with Coinbase is how they rescinded job offers. Management either didn't know a layoff was coming a few weeks ahead of time or it didn't get communicated to recruiters.
      - lovehashbrowns 4y ago
        Have yet to experience a rescinded job offer but god damn that’s my biggest fear in life. Moving to a new place for a new job and getting royally fucked. Bit less of an issue nowadays with more remote jobs, though. Just went through this on a move to Austin from Chicago. I was legitimately scared for my life until the end of my first day at the new job. I have savings, of course, but the pressure is still there.
Signez 4y ago
A lot of Europeans countries have protections in place, including mandatory weeks of notice and negociation, before any layoffs can happen. Somehow, regulators are fine here with interpersonal discussion — including through electronic channels — still happening up to the last day of employment.
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  >A lot of Europeans countries have protections in place, including mandatory weeks of notice and negociation, before any layoffs can happen. Not all EU countries have negotiations and not for all industries, only the unionized ones, otherwise there's nothing to negociate with individuals and you can just let them go whenever you want to (most of the time). Bitpanda in Austria instantly cut employees off once the layoffs were announced and escorted them out on the same day. It's legal and standard M.O. for most big tech companies when they let people go. You still get your legally required notice period, but you'll have to take it at home, not in the office. It depends on the company, how vulnerable it considers its IP against potential sabotage from disgruntled employees, and since tech workers tend to be pretty skilled at the company's internal tech, most companies aren't taking their chances and immediately lock all your accounts and escort you out. All legal. Those weeks of negotiations you're talking about mostly apply to old-school, factory style, unionized jobs at established conglomerates where employees don't have so much leverage for sabotage, and can't just be let go without heavy union pushback, but that rarely applies to tech workers who don't enjoy such protections because they've mostly seen a bull market where they didn't need/want it. >Somehow, regulators are fine here with interpersonal discussion — including through electronic channels — still happening up to the last day of employment. For most tech jobs, those communications once you've been let go, will have to happen outside of the company's internal network, i.e. using your personal email from home.
  - rusticpenn 4y ago
    Atleast in Germany, most Tech workers are unionized ( Verdi or IGMetall)
    - 4y ago
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
eecc 4y ago
That’s just a lazy lie. Go ahead and revoke production access, VPN even, but email and SaaS chat? That’s just plain US attitude about “termination”; the digital equivalent of publicly escorting you out of the building (without even carrying the box of personalia).
- me_me_me 4y ago
  No, he is referring to countries like france where there is protection setup to make it hard for company to have whole QA team fired cuz product was shipped and they wont be needed for few months etc some might cut you off from work and you will end up getting payed for nothing but thats on business to decide on.
- data-ottawa 4y ago
  This might be one of the weirdest parts of remote work. Coworkers just disappear and show as deactivated, and out of privacy nobody will tell you what happened. They just vanish.
apexalpha 4y ago
In my country, NL, employees often stay on for up to 2 months after they've been 'fired'. It's standard practice and people usually just continue to work and transfer stuff to other departments before they leave.
- hef19898 4y ago
  Yeah, that's an option as well. Or you stay on the payroll for the notice period, usually 3 months in Germany and enjoy your time off. Both are fine and depend on the circumstances. I had both in my life, working until the end (basically, there was somr vacation to be taken at the end) and stopping to work when I handed in the notice or was given the notice (both happened). Personally, I prefer the latter option.
pojzon 4y ago
Long before my notice period finished (3months) I had, everything I owned that was company property, already returned to them. Almost one month of free time. Spent that time learning new stack and landed a job that paid me twice as much as the old one. In Europe its not so bad to get some spare time while still getting paid. Friend was in similar situation, but he had 3 months of paid free time.
paulcole 4y ago
> many companies are required by security policies > That's a really rough thing in terms of a human relationship The security policies didn’t come down from the mountain etched on a stone tablet. Humans thought them up and put them in place. It’s important to remember and acknowledge that everything we do is the result of a human’s choice.
akhmatova 4y ago
Many are not required, but do it anyway of course. Either because they're shitting their pants (irrationally believing that these people are both willing to commit, and capable of committing great acts of sabotage on their way out). Or they rationally understand that their internal security measures are a total shitshow (and so the potential for sabotage is real), or that some of these people are rigthfully disgruntled (hence, the motive for sabotage is real). Or (as I suspect) because it helps them emotionally distance themselves from the people whose lives will be (at the very least) dinged by being on the receiving end of these events. "Why did we let you find out about the layoff by having your account locked? Because we knew you were unstable and vindictive, and basically a walking liability to the company all along."

fendy3002 4y ago

Why is it a rough thing in terms of a human relationship? It's good that by revoking all access, both parties can confirm it before termination and the terminated employee is free from any responsibilities for something related with their access which happens in the future.

nullityrofl 4y ago
Exactly this: it's bidirectional protection.
taneq 4y ago
It’s the “before notice” thing. Finding out you were fired by getting to work one day and not being able to open the door is rough.
- fendy3002 4y ago
  Ah right, missed the "before notice" while I read "before termination" before. My bad. It's true that sometimes it's needed to prevent further damage and agree it's a rough thing in human relationship.
- tyingq 4y ago
  The middle of the day perp-walk style is also shitty. Why they don't think about how things feel to people I don't know.
  - denkmoon 4y ago
    Well presumably because it doesn't really matter. The type of org that will do that is the type of org where employees are a widget, to be added, replaced or removed as required for the machine to operate. Anyone comfortable with working in such a situation must acknowledge that the org does not care about their feelings, why would that suddenly change during the termination process?
    - XorNot 4y ago
      This is recent knowledge though which only became commonplace after Millenials entered the workforce. There is still an army of people out there who are teaching their kids completely antiquated labor relations knowledge under the delusion that a job can be "for life" these days. There are people in their 50s and 60s who are learning the hard way (particularly in 2020-2021) how much their company doesn't actually care about them.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

MrBuddyCasino 4y ago

> a lot of reasons why that is the case in practice Then why isn' it the case in eg Germany. Whats different.

rob74 4y ago
What's different in Germany (and most other European countries) is that there are legal requirements to give Y weeks of notice if someone has worked in the company for X years. Also, for layoffs ("betriebsbedingte Kündigung") there are certain rules that have to be followed, i.e. people who were hired later are generally the first on the chopping block, plus other criteria. What's not different is that most of the time you will be shown the door as quickly as possible. You get your notice time, and you get paid until your actual termination date, but you spend that time at home ("freigestellt").
- kqr 4y ago
  My experience in Sweden has been that employees are in normal circumstances trusted to work faithfully during their full notice period of three months. There's an informal understanding that one might not be as productive during those three months, but not that one would be actively malicious. Seems crazy to hire people in the first place that you don't trust!
  - MrBuddyCasino 4y ago
    This is what I was getting at - the US seems to have a hostile relationship between employees and employers. I suspect this is mostly due to legal regulations and not necessarily due to a mistrusting culture per se, but I don't really know.
- chrisseaton 4y ago
  > You get your notice time, and you get paid until your actual termination date, but you spend that time at home ("freigestellt"). Isn’t the US model of severance pay better because you can take a new job while in your severance period.

photochemsyn 4y ago

I understand the reasoning, but then shouldn't someone leaving a job voluntarily just stop showing up without any warning as well? This would avoid problems such as retaliation by the employer, etc. It's rather strange that employees are expected to give advanced notice when quitting, but employers are not expected to give advanced notice when firing people.

bushbaba 4y ago
In most US states, you do not need to give any notice to your employer when quitting. However not giving notice can burn a future bridge. Similar to how a poorly done layoff, (such-as coinbase) can prevent talented candidates from considering the company.
- oarabbus_ 4y ago
  >Similar to how a poorly done layoff, (such-as coinbase) Coinbase offered 3.5 months' severance pay minimum, plus additional severance pay based on employee tenure. If that's a poorly done layoff, what's a well-done one?
  - rot13xor 4y ago
    I think the bigger problem with Coinbase is how they rescinded job offers. Management either didn't know a layoff was coming a few weeks ahead of time or it didn't get communicated to recruiters.
    - lovehashbrowns 4y ago
      Have yet to experience a rescinded job offer but god damn that’s my biggest fear in life. Moving to a new place for a new job and getting royally fucked. Bit less of an issue nowadays with more remote jobs, though. Just went through this on a move to Austin from Chicago. I was legitimately scared for my life until the end of my first day at the new job. I have savings, of course, but the pressure is still there.

Signez 4y ago

A lot of Europeans countries have protections in place, including mandatory weeks of notice and negociation, before any layoffs can happen. Somehow, regulators are fine here with interpersonal discussion — including through electronic channels — still happening up to the last day of employment.

ChuckNorris89 4y ago
>A lot of Europeans countries have protections in place, including mandatory weeks of notice and negociation, before any layoffs can happen. Not all EU countries have negotiations and not for all industries, only the unionized ones, otherwise there's nothing to negociate with individuals and you can just let them go whenever you want to (most of the time). Bitpanda in Austria instantly cut employees off once the layoffs were announced and escorted them out on the same day. It's legal and standard M.O. for most big tech companies when they let people go. You still get your legally required notice period, but you'll have to take it at home, not in the office. It depends on the company, how vulnerable it considers its IP against potential sabotage from disgruntled employees, and since tech workers tend to be pretty skilled at the company's internal tech, most companies aren't taking their chances and immediately lock all your accounts and escort you out. All legal. Those weeks of negotiations you're talking about mostly apply to old-school, factory style, unionized jobs at established conglomerates where employees don't have so much leverage for sabotage, and can't just be let go without heavy union pushback, but that rarely applies to tech workers who don't enjoy such protections because they've mostly seen a bull market where they didn't need/want it. >Somehow, regulators are fine here with interpersonal discussion — including through electronic channels — still happening up to the last day of employment. For most tech jobs, those communications once you've been let go, will have to happen outside of the company's internal network, i.e. using your personal email from home.
- rusticpenn 4y ago
  Atleast in Germany, most Tech workers are unionized ( Verdi or IGMetall)
  - 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

eecc 4y ago

That’s just a lazy lie. Go ahead and revoke production access, VPN even, but email and SaaS chat? That’s just plain US attitude about “termination”; the digital equivalent of publicly escorting you out of the building (without even carrying the box of personalia).

me_me_me 4y ago
No, he is referring to countries like france where there is protection setup to make it hard for company to have whole QA team fired cuz product was shipped and they wont be needed for few months etc some might cut you off from work and you will end up getting payed for nothing but thats on business to decide on.
data-ottawa 4y ago
This might be one of the weirdest parts of remote work. Coworkers just disappear and show as deactivated, and out of privacy nobody will tell you what happened. They just vanish.

apexalpha 4y ago

In my country, NL, employees often stay on for up to 2 months after they've been 'fired'. It's standard practice and people usually just continue to work and transfer stuff to other departments before they leave.

hef19898 4y ago
Yeah, that's an option as well. Or you stay on the payroll for the notice period, usually 3 months in Germany and enjoy your time off. Both are fine and depend on the circumstances. I had both in my life, working until the end (basically, there was somr vacation to be taken at the end) and stopping to work when I handed in the notice or was given the notice (both happened). Personally, I prefer the latter option.

pojzon 4y ago

Long before my notice period finished (3months) I had, everything I owned that was company property, already returned to them. Almost one month of free time. Spent that time learning new stack and landed a job that paid me twice as much as the old one. In Europe its not so bad to get some spare time while still getting paid. Friend was in similar situation, but he had 3 months of paid free time.

paulcole 4y ago

> many companies are required by security policies > That's a really rough thing in terms of a human relationship The security policies didn’t come down from the mountain etched on a stone tablet. Humans thought them up and put them in place. It’s important to remember and acknowledge that everything we do is the result of a human’s choice.

akhmatova 4y ago

Many are not required, but do it anyway of course. Either because they're shitting their pants (irrationally believing that these people are both willing to commit, and capable of committing great acts of sabotage on their way out). Or they rationally understand that their internal security measures are a total shitshow (and so the potential for sabotage is real), or that some of these people are rigthfully disgruntled (hence, the motive for sabotage is real). Or (as I suspect) because it helps them emotionally distance themselves from the people whose lives will be (at the very least) dinged by being on the receiving end of these events. "Why did we let you find out about the layoff by having your account locked? Because we knew you were unstable and vindictive, and basically a walking liability to the company all along."