24 ms·

BMW heated seats subscription costs $18 per month in South Korea

281 points by ra7 4y ago

illliillill 4y ago
xupybd 4y ago
I hope people promptly come up with ways to enable these features for free. This is nothing short of criminal. To charge for a feature that is physically in the car. Yes you can do that with a SASS product but no you cannot for a physical product.
- MerelyMortal 4y ago
  As long as you can find the wires that provide power to the seat heaters, add a switch, and splice it into some power, I imagine one can enable it without any software changes.
  - snypher 4y ago
    Let me introduce you to our good 'friend' Control Module.
    - BoorishBears 4y ago
      *friends, my 435i has something like 30 ECUs But people still do find defeats for most of those. The reality is BMW doesn't care because the average person won't bother with any of that and will just pay.
      - _zzaw 4y ago
        I'm not sure the average person drives a BMW. I don't know, maybe if you can afford to drive a BMW, you don't mind having to rent something you already bought. I have a feeling that if Honda or Toyota pulled this shit, nobody would buy the models that had it. Renting things like heated seats? It feels bizarre to even have to discuss such a dystopically stupid idea.
        BoorishBears 4y ago
        Where to begin... First off, saying "the average person would do X" is a hypothetical. It doesn't mean they're in that situation: "If given choice between modifying car and paying money, will pay money" Second, the article is about BMW, so even if you missed that it'd still be pretty easy to infer an average person amongst their customers... Third, what's with the weird dig against people for owning BMWs. Different people can want different things... and there's a reason Toyota's halo sports car is rolling around with a BMW powerplant. Fourth, Toyota started this is 5 years ago by paywalling remote start not just with the app, but with your normal physical key fob: https://ktvo.com/news/auto-matters/costs-associated-with-entune-and-toyotas-connected-services https://ktvo.com/news/auto-matters/costs-associated-with-ent... They even doubled down and removed the physical button on newer models!: https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/toyota-remote-start-digital-pay-subscription/ https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/toyota-remote-start-digit...
        sumtechguy 4y ago
        It is a silly idea 100%. However, I think BMW knows its customer here. I like to chat up the repair people sometimes. The one conversations that stuck with me for years after bringing in my older BMW. "oh wow have not seen one of these in awhile" (it was 8 years old at that point). "huh, what do you mean?" "oh most of what we deal with in here is lease". A lease is pretty much subscribing to a car service with terrible financial terms. There are plenty of people out there that make decent money but are bad at managing it.
        ClumsyPilot 4y ago
        well, terrible is a relative term, maybe they make so much they don't care. Everyone buying iPhone knows it's not a financially optimal decision
    - MerelyMortal 4y ago
      Is the control module built into the heating pads themselves?
      - anakaine 4y ago
        I fail to see how it matters, really. Heating is generally pretty straight forward. Apply current, get heat. Bypass the module altogether and stick something else in its place?
  - magicalhippo 4y ago
    I had a BMW i3 2017. Last year one of the front turn signal lights broke. So I went to the shop to ask for a replacement bulb. There I learned you can't just replace the bulb, no. The whole light module had to be replaced, $350 + work. These things are getting ridiculously integrated. Wouldn't surprise me if the seat heaters had some integrated temperature controller unit just because.
  - nabilhat 4y ago
    Absolutely, seat warmers are typically nothing more than a resistive grid under the fabric. A quick check for how power's supplied in case there's a requirement for current control, and wire in a physical switch. Unless there's something snuck in that throws codes if the seat heater does something unexpected - wouldn't that be something, DRM for Bimmer bun warmers. In which case if it's not possible to fool the system by wiring in a resistor instead, then it's a car to avoid as seat warmers are rather prone to broken traces over time from occupants bouncing and shuffling around on the seats, which could render the car unregisterable in regions that check OBD codes.
- foepys 4y ago
  > Yes you can do that with a SASS product but no you cannot for a physical product. Why? Not that I am in favor of this but are there really objective arguments to support that? One can argue that the ecological impact is higher due to the need for additional materials but maybe people buy new a car only because they didn't have feature X and installing it afterwards is too expensive.
  - xupybd 4y ago
    Because you're getting a good deal out of it. They're managing the hardware it runs on. Keeping the software up to date. The customer gets a good deal. We have office 365. Users self manage. They can download and install on devices as they want. Before office 365 I had to install it for them. It's a big win for our business. We have no dedicated I.T. people. I'm a developer that does a little here and there but we work to avoid anything with I.T. costs. SASS is a brilliant solution to our problem. Yeah I'll pay a subscription for an on going service. I won't pay a subscription for enabling a feature I then have to maintain. If the seat heater fails, I have to pay to fix it.
    - ratg13 4y ago
      You make a very good point, but makes me wonder if they were fully responsible for maintaining the seats as part of the contract, would that then make this acceptable?
      - xupybd 4y ago
        Yeah I think so. Mechanical insurance is the equivalent.
  - sanjayio 4y ago
    Because for the heated seats there are no server fees, maintenance costs, firmware updates, patches, future features under development, product teams thinking about lifecycle, the list goes on. The same can’t be said for AI in Teslas or Whoop straps which can justify the cost / subscription.
- deng 4y ago
  > I hope people promptly come up with ways to enable these features for free. This is nothing short of criminal. To charge for a feature that is physically in the car. This is very common. It is often cheaper to have a single SKU and enable/disable features via software than to create a separate one. I don't see what could be criminal about that.
  - Reubachi 4y ago
    It is common in industry that use SAAS, modular systems, etc. Not with purely physical goods. I'm surprised practices like these have legal legs. No reasonable finance statement/legal statement will stand behind a $3.5k line item under manufacturing for a robot to flip a switch to enable a software setting on already installed hardware. Example w/ non-real numbers: BMW x5 with front facing radar, dealer enabled, cost of goods sold = $31,000. MSRP = $60k. BMW x5 with front facing radar installed, dealer disabled, cogs =$31,000.MSRP= $56.5k. This is not healthy for a company to rely on.
- jrochkind1 4y ago
  > "Unauthorized Bread"—a tale of jailbreaking refugees versus IoT appliances—is the lead novella in author Cory Doctorow's Radicalized https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-near-future-tale-of-refugees-and-sinister-iot-appliances/ https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-...
runnerup 4y ago
I kind of like the idea of the manufacturers installing hardware that I don’t have to pay for and can enable with a software patch or computer swap.
- Andaith 4y ago
  If they're installing the hardware you _are_ paying for it, they just want to increase their profits by charging you more money to use the hardware you've already paid for! If it's _your car_ then all the features in the car _belong to you_. Why should you pay a third party additional monies to use features of an object that _you already own_. I think this is despicable, and I won't purchase a car that I can't own outright.
  - Anunayj 4y ago
    I think what the parent commenter implied to mean here is, they like when companies put in features (Razor and blade model) and add soft-locks to prohibit people from using them, because they a tech-savvy user can often find a way around it. They think this benefits them, because they can get a device (for example a printer) at cheaper prices at what would be possible, and find ways around (cartridge) soft locks.
    - naasking 4y ago
      > They think this benefits them, because they can get a device (for example a printer) at cheaper prices at what would be possible They think that, but that's wrong. It creates an industry with skewed incentives and less competition. The company can obviously sell the item at the lower cost and thus provide more competitive options to the marketplace, but they're trying to limit competition via software locks instead.
  - throwaway0a5e 4y ago
    It's not that simple. Even if they're not installing it you're paying for some of it because of all the overhead it takes to offer the option.
- 4y ago
sp527 4y ago
They have an option to buy it outright that appears to be priced at the same level as a typical upgrade. They also have 1 and 3 year subscriptions. This is actually a net win for both BMW and for consumers. You can do things like "try extensively before you buy" or even choose to only subscribe during the winter (which they probably expect a lot of people to do). BMW benefits because they're almost certainly expanding the total value they capture in upgrades. It's no longer a single customer decision point. Really savvy and perfectly sensible.
- notfromhere 4y ago
  You’re paying for the permission to turn on hardware you already paid for
  - dexterdog 4y ago
    But you would pay more for it if they had to put it in only certain models based on the packaging. They've done it with satellite radio for a long time now.
    - naasking 4y ago
      Right, so incentivize them to stop trying to reduce competition with software locks. If they can provide the same hardware for cheaper by exploiting economies of scale, that's what we should require them to do. That's what capitalism is good at doing. Software locks are anti-competitive.
- _zzaw 4y ago
  Haha nope. If I buy the car, I own everything that is in it. Installing extra parts or features? Sure, I'll pay for that. Hardware that's already in the car, and disabled just so the manufacturer can try to squeeze more money out of me? Never. I'll either enable it myself, or refuse to support companies that do such a thing if I can't. Subscription models like this one need to be punished, hard, and/or simply rendered unprofitable. Maybe a few rich chumps are willing to pay, but I think the vast majority of car buyers have no interest in being nickel-and-dimed for the privilege of using hardware they already paid for.
LeeroyWasHere 4y ago
They're working on much worst things... Prepare for car microtransactions.
- benj111 4y ago
  I wonder what the going rate would be to deploy airbags at the point of impact. I suppose the challenge would be getting consent in-between the crash becoming inevitable and actually happening
  - 4ggr0 4y ago
    This is starting to sound like a dystopian cyberpunk world. "Our car tried to deploy the airbags, but the customers credit card was declined" Although to make it even more futuristic, we could replace "credit card" with "crypto wallet" "Please deposit some $BMWTKN to your wallet or sell one of your cars microservices in order for the window-wipers to work again.[...] We detected that your rear-view camera was sold, window-wipers are now activated again."
    - DesiLurker 4y ago
      it will be more like they'll sellout your non-functional airbag and taillight status to cops and get them in on the scam. and of course if you cant pay it all then kids, it'll always end with kids ending up in state's care.
  - ridgered4 4y ago
    Didn't this already happen with some motorcycle safety system that required a monthly payment or it would get disabled?
    - bguebert 4y ago
      Is this subscription safety vest what you are thinking of? https://www.inputmag.com/tech/this-motorcycle-airbag-vest-deactivates-if-you-havent-paid-your-sub https://www.inputmag.com/tech/this-motorcycle-airbag-vest-de...
bgdkbtv 4y ago
As a long time fanboy of BMW... they keep breaking my heart. First their questionable design choices, now this.
atwood22 4y ago
Super weird decision from BMW. The brand is all about luxury and performance at all costs. Trying to nickel and dime on seat heaters just seems cheap.
- nprateem 4y ago
  It's the thin end of the wedge. Want to use the stereo, unlock remotely, etc etc?
  - bluGill 4y ago
    The question is will customers stand for it. I know as a used car buyer I won't the subscription so that means the car doesn't have heated seats and is valued that way compared to a different car that does have it. In turn that means BMW is risking lower resale value, and resale is a factor in new car price.
- bearmode 4y ago
  It's very par-for-the-course for BMW, they have been nickel and diming for years.
- rockinghigh 4y ago
  BMW did the same when they charged $80/year for Apple CarPlay for their 2019 models. They stopped shortly after.
  - mwexler 4y ago
    As a long time BMW buyer, the brand lost me when they floated this plan. The writing was on the wall: they see themselves as a lifestyle, not a car brand, and we'll see more desperate attempts to make consumers a subscription instead of a purchaser. Everyone wants to be Apple, which gets a feedline of subscription revenue from phone purchasers. Note the odd logo change around this time as well (2020 or so), another sign of their attempts to "reinvent" themselves as a services company. https://bimmertips.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/BMW_logo_origin_history_timeline-744x709.jpg https://bimmertips.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/BMW_logo_o... (via https://bimmertips.com/bmw-logo-history-origin/ https://bimmertips.com/bmw-logo-history-origin/) in one picture, and BMW's take at https://www.bmw.com/en/automotive-life/bmw-logo-meaning-history1.html https://www.bmw.com/en/automotive-life/bmw-logo-meaning-hist.... I miss the days when BMW just made really fun cars that I was willing to overpay for, helping my dealer and the factory stay profitable.
2457013579 4y ago
Seems a small step after Tesla’s $2000-$3000 “acceleration boost” software update that came out in December of 2019. https://electriccarpledge.com/tesla-acceleration-boost/ https://electriccarpledge.com/tesla-acceleration-boost/
- pornel 4y ago
  I can imagine the performance boost putting higher strain on the battery, increasing wear and risk of overheating various components that are under warranty, so unlocks like these could be less than pure greed.
2143 4y ago
I seriously hope this doesn't catch on. For cars with internal combustion engines, the company tends to get constant income via service thanks oil filters, other filters, and a whole bunch of stuff that needs to be replaced (assuming people take it to authorised service centers, which I assume most people do when the car is relatively new). With the transition to EV, those avenues dry up because EVs need lesser maintenance (as per my understanding). So, are they trying to create new recurring income sources due to the possibility of existing such incomes drying up?
- EveYoung 4y ago
  Isn't this just a new way to pay for already existing options? Instead of paying the full cost in advance, you can spread it over the product's lifetime, and once the car gets resold, the new buyer can "configure" it as they prefer.
  - benj111 4y ago
    How much are you suggesting heated seats cost? What would an average owner pay over the lifetime of the vehicle?
    - kabes 4y ago
      $406 for pemanent activation. It's right there in the article...
  - 2143 4y ago
    That's assuming manufacturers wouldn't already include the price of rentable hardware in the cost of the car. Would any manufacturers do that? Why would a manufacturer fit in hardware for heated seats into a car, and not charge you for it? Because they hope you will subscribe to the heated seats? This argument breaks down in markets like India, middle East, Malaysia etc where it's hot and humid, and nobody would want to use heated seats. If you don't subscribe, then it'll be a loss for the manufacturers who included the hardware and not charged you for it. Of course, the sane thing would be to not offer heated seats at all in such markets, but as things stand today, heated seats are offered in these hot places (and nobody uses them AFAIK). In the subscription-based future, here's how I think it'll be like: - heated-seat hardware will be present in the car - heated seats will be a rentable option - manufacturers would include the price for it anyway in the cost of the car => customers lose Cars are expensive as it is, so manufacturers can totally get away with it.
deleted 4y ago
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CogitoCogito 4y ago
It would be nice if someone could figure out how to hack these into working without a subscription.
- Ajedi32 4y ago
  That should indeed be possible. And ideally it'd be illegal for the manufacturer to try to stop you. I've thought about this a bit, and I feel like many of these sort of abuses could be mitigated rather elegantly with some sort of right-to-repair type legislation focused on providing consumers with the ability to modify their property as they see fit. Far less costly than trying to anticipate and ban every possible anti-feature manufacturers could build into their products.
kabes 4y ago
As long as it stays an additional option next to permanent buying it I don't see the problem. Maybe I didn't care for heated seats zt time of purchase, but suddenly it's a very cold winter and I want it for a couple of months. Or someone wants to buy my car, but really wants heated seats can now do so.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- N19PEDL2 4y ago
  As per my understanding, you already paid for the heated seats when you bought the car, as they are already installed on board. What you are required to do is to pay a monthly fee in order to use something you already own.
  - rexf 4y ago
    They are not requiring you to pay a monthly fee. The feature is available as a $18 monthly fee OR a 1 time $406 fee. [TFA](https://www.motor1.com/news/597376/bmw-heated-seats-subscription/ https://www.motor1.com/news/597376/bmw-heated-seats-subscrip...) says: > Should you want the feature permanently, that'll set you back $406.
bengale 4y ago
I wasn't particularly impressed when I got my new 4 series and had to pay £20 or something like that for auto-highbeams, even if it is a one off. I can sort of understand a subscription for the speed camera data, although its a bit cheap, but for the lights it seemed mad.
- wodenokoto 4y ago
  20 quid plus minus on the sticker price doesn’t matter at all. 20 quid after the purchase is quite an annoyance. Why didn’t they just add it to the sticker price and everyone would have been happier.
  - varjag 4y ago
    There's a department for vehicle add on services at BMW, they have to have their own turnover.
  - bengale 4y ago
    Yeah that was my general feeling. I'm paying upwards of £40k for the car and the first day I press a button and get told I can "buy" the feature, not a good experience.
- ehnto 4y ago
  Dealer options have been around for a long time, but usually the equipment isn't already fitted to the car, the dealer has to add it. I think that's why this approach feels so inauthentic. Your car has the equipment, but you're not allowed to use it, even though it's there, and you own it...
senectus1 4y ago
so you buy the car, fully equipped with the heat seating... but you can't turn it on unless you pay a subscription fee? I had to double check this wasn't an Onion article. thats one of the most dumbest brand burning idea's I've ever seen. I'm happy enough with my Mid range Rav4 Hybrid that comes with seat heaters and no subscription fee thanks...
- dexterdog 4y ago
  It's not a terrible idea for a lot of stuff. It's much more economical to add many features on all vehicles than to package them. Then you can individual menu out the items to the people who want them.
  - mnkmnk 4y ago
    If it is economical, the benefits must be passed on to the consumers. Maybe luxury cars have become commoditised and BMW can’t think of any new innovative thing to charge for so this is what they do.
- james_pm 4y ago
  https://www.theverge.com/2021/12/12/22831105/toyota-subscription-remote-start-key-fob https://www.theverge.com/2021/12/12/22831105/toyota-subscrip... In case you thought Toyota wouldn't do the same thing.
- DesiLurker 4y ago
  eventually it'll be subscription advanced airbags (as opposed to basic ones) bundled with remote start and sirius.
ClumsyPilot 4y ago
We are rapidly moving towards Feudalism. If someone can charge you for using things you already bought and 'own', then average man has no property rights. The fee could be increased at any time, or new fees could be introduced. As the housing crysis deepens, average person will never own a home either. So average person will be in the same position as a medieval serf, conpletely dependand on the whims of the lord, probably living in debt starting from the student loan and dying in debt.
- andrekandre 4y ago
  > If someone can charge you for using things you already bought and 'own', then average man has no property rights. it seems a natural progression once you've saturated the market and new avenues are closed to further growth; you find a way to add subscriptions and "value adds"...
- alexpotato 4y ago
  We've all ready reached that for lots of other parts of the consumer spectrum. e.g. you used to own your music and movie collection but now you rent access to it via Spotify, Amazon Music, Netflix etc Even games: it used to be it was YOUR game but now you pay a subscription.
  - ausbah 4y ago
    I think the value proposition with stuff like Spotify is different. a.) there are still services where you can own your copy of the music, there is still - at least some semblance of - consumer choice. b.) the amount and variety of music I listen to on Spotify and pay per month is WAY more than paying for individual songs (at least personally)
    - prawn 4y ago
      And I think there's some value in not actually having the music in physical form, at least as we knew it. I have fond memories of the music I discovered and enjoyed on tape and CD (only owned 2-3 records), but I don't miss the CD towers and shelves of video tapes. Even if you cart around audio files on 5TB portable drives, or have a drive per key location (home, office, etc) there are advantages to streaming. One less drive I need to maintain. Losing everything when you unsubscribe is shitty though. I guess that's the choice made.
analog31 4y ago
I can see it for some exterior feature of the car such as gold plated trim or fancy rims, but you would really have to be "in the know" about this brand, to know that someone has paid an extra $18/mo for this feature. Unless you ride with them. Still, if this becomes a way that I can get a cheaper car by declining all of the add-ons, or if it lowers the price of used cars, I'll be happy.
andrekandre 4y ago
> A similar subscription plan is offered for a heated steering wheel and it costs $10 per month, $92 annually, and $161 for three years. You can also buy it outright for $222. isnt this what in the old days was what they (adam smith et al) meant when they talked about economic rents and (rent) free markets...?
Jemm 4y ago
People who pay a subscription to use an item they bought for are part of the problem.
GoToRO 4y ago
The people should charge BMW more for renting space in their car for seat heaters.
- tomxor 4y ago
  Don't forget the rent for the parking space, they don't come cheap these days.
gfunk911 4y ago
This seems no different than Intel manufacturing fewer distinct things and using CPU locking to sell at more price points. https://www.techopedia.com/definition/2239/cpu-lock https://www.techopedia.com/definition/2239/cpu-lock It’s cheaper to physically put the functionality in all the cars than to differentiate at assembly time. We don’t have the same visceral reaction to paying for options at the dealer. (I am assuming they aren’t adding this charge RETROACTIVELY. That’s very different)
- atty 4y ago
  I’d be fine if every vehicle had the hardware in it and it was activated via an upsell at the dealership. I think the truly insidious thing here is the subscription aspect, for all the various reasons other people in the responses have stated. I’m ok with Intel doing the same thing. But if Intel started selling AVX512 with a monthly subscription I’d ever buy an Intel chip again.
- norman784 4y ago
  Isn’t that most of the low end processors have deffects, so they trim down (yes, blocking some features, cores, etc) and selling you at lower prices, but the thing is, you know beforehand what are you buying, without any hidden subscription, etc, also is cheaper than the full featured one, so I’m not particularly mad about it.
- xuhu 4y ago
  Are you paying Intel $18 per month for your extra cores ?
  - thrtythreeforty 4y ago
    No, although IBM did the same thing with mainframes, and yes customers did make a phone call to unlock some extra hardware. Or pay per instruction executed. IBM had lots of creative ways to charge for mainframes.
- naasking 4y ago
  You are correct, it is no different, and it's wrong when Intel does it too, assuming the CPU hardware really is identical and it's purely a software lock that the user can't work around.
jmrm 4y ago
If companies continues adding more subscription options in more models it will make some aftermarket electronic modules, or simply jailbreak hacks, to bypass those locks. It happened already in the Tesla, and I don't think it will stop here.
- norman784 4y ago
  This is pure speculation, but I suspect that they have some kind of DRM to prevent you on using those features, that means if you break a DRM, then you are at fault here, while I don’t agree, this seems similar to the case of one wheel that they block the motherboard if you unplug the battery, if you plug again the same battery it doesn’t matter, the motherboard is already blocked, and because of intellectual property (I don’t remember the details on what they did) you cannot "hack" the motherboard without breaking the law. This is becoming so sad in all aspects, soon this kind of practices will get to PCs? where the motherboard will also have subscriptions, even maybe cpu and gpu.
  - jmrm 4y ago
    This is sadly already happening. In Europe, car garages need to update their diagnosis machines, or even pay[1], to get some keys from Renault to being able to do anything in their newer models. Even their low-cost subbranch Dacia need those keys. They say they do that to prevent attacks from the OBD port (used commonly to steal cars). This not only is absolutely an anti-consumer practice, but also is probably a pretty temporal and ineffective solution to prevent your car being stolen[2]. Nowadays, is pretty common to need to program some kind of electronic module in the car for some parts replacements, and with that, they are preventing people and small and new car garages to do that kind of repairs. Heck, even the TPMS control module need to "re-learn" "where is who" when you rotate your tyres. [1]: Usually diagnosis machines have a subscription-based system where they provide you not only new car models software packages, but also instructions about how to do part replacements. [2]: AFAIK, most stolen cars are really easy to stole (like the 80s/90s Honda's) or really valuable (and they provide tools, ECMs, or whatever they need to stole them).
- macNchz 4y ago
ubermonkey 4y ago
BMW has already shown itself to be skeevy by attempting to charge a fee for Apple's CarPlay; fortunately, if memory serves, they backed down from that. I'll never buy another BMW, and I won't buy a car from a company that follows suit. It's gross.
aabhay 4y ago
Am I the only one that actually likes this idea? I live in Austin, where we only need heated seats like three months out of the year at most. On top of that, if I pay $999 for heated seats as an addon, that’s equivalent to 4.5 years of subscription at $18/m. If I could turn off lots of features while I’m on vacation, etc. I think that’s a huge win. But clearly I’m in the extreme minority.
- basicplus2 4y ago
  Or...you could put a switch on your dash that turns the heaters on and off as you wish..
  - chrisseaton 4y ago
    That just means you're paying the same money up front rather than as a subscription. Why's that better?
    - lpapez 4y ago
      The heated seats are already in the car, this is about paying more to unlock something you already paid for.
      - chrisseaton 4y ago
        > something you already paid for No - you can either pay for the option one-time up front (the article says), or you can pay a subscription. You don't pay for the option up-front and also pay the subscription. Depending on your circumstances, one of these two ways to pay will be cheaper for you. It may be the subscription. Or you can not pay at all and never pay for the feature and forget about it. If you never pay at all I guess you're 'paying' to carry the hardware around but not using it, in terms of extra fuel consumed. But maybe the baseline car ends up being cheaper for you as it simplifies the production line to install it everywhere?
        naasking 4y ago
Zenst 4y ago
Does somewhat seem to play into the dystopian economic models that we all love to read and watch, but not experience. Though marketing models for things you already have, is just handing over money so you can enable a feature you own and they add nothing. No AI to measure your heating needs or add on's ahead, just money to turn on the heat with no added value. Shame as when your business model is a death of an innocent away (say child died of hypothermia as unable to enable the heating) from a PR disaster - then it's in need of some adjustments. But certainly, will encourage people with little skill and lots of willingness to try modifying their cars they own.
siscia 4y ago
At first was a little uncomfortable with the change, but then I thought how much would it be today to add those optionals to a new car. Checking from my phone, the heated steering wheel is more than 300$, which is more than what would cost the permanent upgrade in the car. Now we should wonder, having a construction line and distribution system capable of handling optionals like the heated steering wheel, does it cost more or less than 300$? I don't think that the answer is obvious. Would it be possible that the car get actually cheaper for the consumers? Also having those optionals allow to turn them on and off at will. Maybe if I swap car with my SO it would like the heated seat that I never care for. I see the dangerous of this, but I also see the benefits.
- petesergeant 4y ago
  Also, this means your car can be resold to someone who wants heated seats and a steering wheel, even if you didn't want it (and didn't have to pay for it).
technological 4y ago
I wish instead of subscription they make car more modular (I mean certain features). So I can opt out things I don’t want and add later
weberer 4y ago
"You will own nothing and you will be happy"
perfectstorm 4y ago
welcome to the new subscription economy courtesy of Apple and Google.
wonderwonder 4y ago
Article didn't really cover this but do you still have to pay more for a car that has the heated seats and steering wheel options and then a monthly fee to use them or do all the target cars in SK come with these features standard? If you have to pay more just to have the option of paying to turn on the subscription then that is insane.
- nixpulvis 4y ago
  This is almost an irrelevant point. If the hardware is installed and you own the damn car, you should be able to turn on the damn heaters. Would be interesting to know I suppose though.
  - sumtechguy 4y ago
    It does seem to rub people the wrong way. Of a 'wait I have the part but you want 20 bucks a month for me to use it?!' get out of here. I watched one restaurant try something like this. It was a fairly high end restaurant. They came in and started charging for salads. They were so proud of 500-1000 extra per month they were making. What they did not notice was their clientele just decided to not be treated like that. The place went from 2 hour wait to get into, to the servers fighting to get tables, within a year, out of business 2 years later. They could have put the cost into the meal and no one would have batted an eye. Instead they came off as cheap and gouging.
  - nicce 4y ago
    I guess some could try to sue BMW for including this extra waste and not accounting it in the price. The cost of renting the space for the waste and the energy for moving them around.
chewz 4y ago
Good news is that all bmw's come with all the options just turned off via software.. So be smart guys, this is called hacker news for a reason... Just buy bare metal bmw and turn all luxury options on... (and BMW is traditionally very dumb on security)...
- _fat_santa 4y ago
  Hackers are rejoicing at this subscription movement because now they can get a fully loaded BMW for the price of a base model.
  - WXLCKNO 4y ago
    Downloading these Tartufo merino leather seats for free.
  - Mo3 4y ago
    Downloading a car has never become more realistic
- dotancohen 4y ago
  > Just buy bare metal bmw and turn all luxury options on Bring My (own) Warmers.
- mdtancsa 4y ago
  I wonder if I could build and app / service for them -- TSOAS (aka Turn Shit Off As a Service) and charge them a small monthly fee to do it. BMW should be in the business of building cars, not pissing off people. They could outsource that to me as a service!
- queuebert 4y ago
  Purposefully dumb I suspect, because BMW has a strong modding enthusiast following.
- growse 4y ago
  Except.... This isn't true. I can't just "turn on" adaptive headlights because the vehicle doesn't have the necessary camera to scan the road for oncoming cars installed. I can't just "turn on" adaptive cruise control, because my vehicle doesn't have the necessary front radar installed. I can't just "turn on" the HUD, because my vehicle doesn't have the necessary dash components physically installed. The number of different hardware permutations of most modern cars is eye-watering. For most options, if you didn't get it installed from the factory, you're looking at an expense retrofit.
LatteLazy 4y ago
When real interest rates and inflation are low, recurring revenue looks really attractive, because the NPV is high. That makes sense and I see how that drives subscription models for everything from movies to phones to car seats. But now interest rates are rising and inflation is high, I can't help but think BMW have missed the boat and are pursuing a model that would have been a great idea in 2008 but with hindsight will look dumb when 2030 people look back at us.
jms703 4y ago
I can see why a car manufacturer would not want to make two versions of each car, one with heated seats and one without. Instead, build it into all of them, and only activate and charge those that actually need it. Also, the subscription is an option. You can also pay the full price for the feature. Where I live, I could see using this once or two months a year. Whereas some would need it more and they might just buy the option outright.
- themodelplumber 4y ago
  Plus you could buy or make other economical heating solutions for your seats...BMW driver notwithstanding
- athorax 4y ago
  It is mind blowing that this is something people are willing to accept. The feature is there, the ecological damage is done already by including those extra resources, and you've paid for the vehicle but don't actually own its capabilities.
  - winReInstall 4y ago
    + Seat heaters are heavy. You drive them around all year long, they will show up on your fuel bill one way or another.
    - Mo3 4y ago
      Really? I assumed it’s just some wires in a seat..
    - wiseleo 4y ago
      They are small light-weight pads.
      - winReInstall 4y ago
        0.25 kg without the wiring per seat, adds up to 5 seats * 0.25kg + tons of coper wiring.
stuckinhell 4y ago
You won't own anything, and you will be happy (not). This is truly insane, its WORSE than feudalism. https://www.businessinsider.com/american-worker-less-vacation-medieval-peasant-2016-11 https://www.businessinsider.com/american-worker-less-vacatio...
cm42 4y ago
Do they have to pay extra for the turn signals too?
lkxijlewlf 4y ago
How soon until your car tells BMW that it's cold outside and BMW turns on the heated seats and puts an ad on your display, "For just $18/Month, this feature could be yours!"
mynegation 4y ago
If you want to know the future, read Philip K. Dick (this subject is straight from "Ubik") and Vernor Vinge's "Rainbows End".
midhhhthrow 4y ago
AS a consumer I absolutely hate subscriptions. I will never own a subscription to anything I can replace for something else. I bought solar panels to avoid electric subscription, etc. I never buy on credit, etc
- thatsnotmepls 4y ago
  What about your mobile data subscription? ISP subscription?
- hellisothers 4y ago
  I can sympathize not wanting subscriptions but credit, that’s a game to build wealth that is usually worth playing.
  - Clubber 4y ago
    >credit, that’s a game to build wealth that is usually worth playing. He's talking about consumer goods which typically have a negative ROI.
dangus 4y ago
Unpopular opinion: this could be a consumer benefit, although BMW doesn’t seem to quite have the value proposition exactly where I’d like it to be. It’s cheaper to build fewer SKUs and variations of a product. The fact that the assembly line never has to change what they’re installing in the car could make heated seats cheaper in the first place. BMW currently charges $500 for heated seats a la carte in the US, so that costs 1.76 times more than the 3 year subscription at $283. That means your breakeven point is at a little bit over 5 years, without considering present and future value of money. I could see a lot of BMW owners being completely uninterested in owning the car after 5 years, with so many of them choosing to lease. It is a luxury car, after all. Now, here’s the other thing, if you do the monthly plan, presumably you could unsubscribe in the summer. So that’s more like $54 a year if you need it for three months of the year. That puts your breakeven point at close to 10 years! BMW does have a lifetime purchase option, too. I hope these purchases are tied to the vehicle and not the owner, but I have my doubts on BMW being so benevolent. I also think it would be ideal if hardware subscriptions like this would simply unlock once the car reaches a certain age to consider its depreciated status.
- juve1996 4y ago
  Yea, you can't use it in the summer and save those months. But what if BMW says "the costs went up, subscription price must raise." Now in 3 years it's $25 a month. This is the path. Companies exist for profit. They will only make customers as happy as they need to.
  - dangus 4y ago
    It's true that they've always existed for a profit. BMW doesn't operate in a bubble and has a wide selection of competitors, so if their pricing and terms are too unreasonable, customers will go elsewhere. I think these connected services are aimed at lessees who are the bread and butter of BMW's business. Someone leasing this car would actually save money by "renting" the heated seats, next owner be damned. Still, I'm definitely not trying to say that this is a wonderful, wonderful thing. But, considering that a "lifetime" purchase option still exists, I think this represents example of giving customers more options than they previously had.
labrador 4y ago
Imagine paying a company $18 a month to warm your butt. Imagine going back in time and telling your great-grandfather you pay someone to warm your butt.
- asteroidbelt 4y ago
  Imagine living in cold climate. Heated seats is very nice to have in certain places where temp below -20C is not uncommon. (Paid monthly subscription is a different issue though.)
  - labrador 4y ago
    I come from a family where my father refused to use the AC in the car no matter how hot it was because it lowered the gas mileage
fny 4y ago
What dumbass executive greenlighted this? $18 per month over 10 years is $2,160. MSRP for the 2020 2 Series--BMW's cheapest sedan--is $35,300. So instead of charging $2K--5% more--for heated seats out right they have no gone through the expense of (1) building the software, billing, and support infrastructure to manage this (2) pissing off customers. I'm assuming they're also streamlining production by building heated seats into every car instead of selective models, but again, why not just go with a permanent upgrade model? Everyone buys heated seats, BWM provides a special chip to activate them.
- athorax 4y ago
  Exactly. This is probably a $300 actual cost item they have to charge 5x for to pay for all the supporting infrastructure and software engineers
  - onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
    Yes, but this is the future they want to move to where you pay $60k for your car, but you need to also pay them $1k per month (for nothing) to drive it - obviously not including your insurance or gas. To grow profits in excess of inflation in a saturated market, you must charge your costumers continuously more for the same product.
- wingerlang 4y ago
  I suspect the heated seats were/are just a simple thing they could add onto the infrastructure, which must support a lot more services than just the seats.
- winReInstall 4y ago
  I find this great, let them build under priced cars, goto a shop and get the "all features go" chip welded in and pirated firmware. Shareholders financially supporting customers driving better then they could afford, the same fate that you can expect for tesla. Which reminds me what is the tesla dark quota? How many cars totally disappear from the always connected feature and never reconnect?
- 4y ago
SergeAx 4y ago
Probably, that guy in front of me just can't afford his turning lights subscription.
prsutherland 4y ago
Not clear if you need a car first, or if they will mail you a seat like the old netflix dvd model.
StanislavPetrov 4y ago
One of many reasons that when my current car gives out, I'm eyeing a 1970s era pickup. I like to actually own the things I buy, rather than being forced to pay subscription fees for features of a car I own. Or have components of the car that I own "phone home" with information about my vehicle, my driving habits or my location.
the-anarchist 4y ago
Modern cars are all in all pretty awful. They are the posterboys of technology that took a wrong turn at some point. Modern engines/electric engines? Fine. Some electronics to assist driving and engine management? Okay. Safety features? Sure. But everything else is basically the automobile equivalent of a modern web browser.
FunnyBadger 4y ago
I'm a serial BMW owner (on my 8th) but this ends my relationship with BMW forever.

281 points by ra7 4y ago

I hope people promptly come up with ways to enable these features for free. This is nothing short of criminal. To charge for a feature that is physically in the car. Yes you can do that with a SASS product but no you cannot for a physical product.

MerelyMortal 4y ago
As long as you can find the wires that provide power to the seat heaters, add a switch, and splice it into some power, I imagine one can enable it without any software changes.
- snypher 4y ago
  Let me introduce you to our good 'friend' Control Module.
  - BoorishBears 4y ago
    *friends, my 435i has something like 30 ECUs But people still do find defeats for most of those. The reality is BMW doesn't care because the average person won't bother with any of that and will just pay.
    - _zzaw 4y ago
      I'm not sure the average person drives a BMW. I don't know, maybe if you can afford to drive a BMW, you don't mind having to rent something you already bought. I have a feeling that if Honda or Toyota pulled this shit, nobody would buy the models that had it. Renting things like heated seats? It feels bizarre to even have to discuss such a dystopically stupid idea.
      - BoorishBears 4y ago
        Where to begin... First off, saying "the average person would do X" is a hypothetical. It doesn't mean they're in that situation: "If given choice between modifying car and paying money, will pay money" Second, the article is about BMW, so even if you missed that it'd still be pretty easy to infer an average person amongst their customers... Third, what's with the weird dig against people for owning BMWs. Different people can want different things... and there's a reason Toyota's halo sports car is rolling around with a BMW powerplant. Fourth, Toyota started this is 5 years ago by paywalling remote start not just with the app, but with your normal physical key fob: https://ktvo.com/news/auto-matters/costs-associated-with-entune-and-toyotas-connected-services https://ktvo.com/news/auto-matters/costs-associated-with-ent... They even doubled down and removed the physical button on newer models!: https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/toyota-remote-start-digital-pay-subscription/ https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/toyota-remote-start-digit...
      - sumtechguy 4y ago
        It is a silly idea 100%. However, I think BMW knows its customer here. I like to chat up the repair people sometimes. The one conversations that stuck with me for years after bringing in my older BMW. "oh wow have not seen one of these in awhile" (it was 8 years old at that point). "huh, what do you mean?" "oh most of what we deal with in here is lease". A lease is pretty much subscribing to a car service with terrible financial terms. There are plenty of people out there that make decent money but are bad at managing it.
        ClumsyPilot 4y ago
        well, terrible is a relative term, maybe they make so much they don't care. Everyone buying iPhone knows it's not a financially optimal decision
  - MerelyMortal 4y ago
    Is the control module built into the heating pads themselves?
    - anakaine 4y ago
      I fail to see how it matters, really. Heating is generally pretty straight forward. Apply current, get heat. Bypass the module altogether and stick something else in its place?
- magicalhippo 4y ago
  I had a BMW i3 2017. Last year one of the front turn signal lights broke. So I went to the shop to ask for a replacement bulb. There I learned you can't just replace the bulb, no. The whole light module had to be replaced, $350 + work. These things are getting ridiculously integrated. Wouldn't surprise me if the seat heaters had some integrated temperature controller unit just because.
- nabilhat 4y ago
  Absolutely, seat warmers are typically nothing more than a resistive grid under the fabric. A quick check for how power's supplied in case there's a requirement for current control, and wire in a physical switch. Unless there's something snuck in that throws codes if the seat heater does something unexpected - wouldn't that be something, DRM for Bimmer bun warmers. In which case if it's not possible to fool the system by wiring in a resistor instead, then it's a car to avoid as seat warmers are rather prone to broken traces over time from occupants bouncing and shuffling around on the seats, which could render the car unregisterable in regions that check OBD codes.
foepys 4y ago
> Yes you can do that with a SASS product but no you cannot for a physical product. Why? Not that I am in favor of this but are there really objective arguments to support that? One can argue that the ecological impact is higher due to the need for additional materials but maybe people buy new a car only because they didn't have feature X and installing it afterwards is too expensive.
- xupybd 4y ago
  Because you're getting a good deal out of it. They're managing the hardware it runs on. Keeping the software up to date. The customer gets a good deal. We have office 365. Users self manage. They can download and install on devices as they want. Before office 365 I had to install it for them. It's a big win for our business. We have no dedicated I.T. people. I'm a developer that does a little here and there but we work to avoid anything with I.T. costs. SASS is a brilliant solution to our problem. Yeah I'll pay a subscription for an on going service. I won't pay a subscription for enabling a feature I then have to maintain. If the seat heater fails, I have to pay to fix it.
  - ratg13 4y ago
    You make a very good point, but makes me wonder if they were fully responsible for maintaining the seats as part of the contract, would that then make this acceptable?
    - xupybd 4y ago
      Yeah I think so. Mechanical insurance is the equivalent.
- sanjayio 4y ago
  Because for the heated seats there are no server fees, maintenance costs, firmware updates, patches, future features under development, product teams thinking about lifecycle, the list goes on. The same can’t be said for AI in Teslas or Whoop straps which can justify the cost / subscription.
deng 4y ago
> I hope people promptly come up with ways to enable these features for free. This is nothing short of criminal. To charge for a feature that is physically in the car. This is very common. It is often cheaper to have a single SKU and enable/disable features via software than to create a separate one. I don't see what could be criminal about that.
- Reubachi 4y ago
  It is common in industry that use SAAS, modular systems, etc. Not with purely physical goods. I'm surprised practices like these have legal legs. No reasonable finance statement/legal statement will stand behind a $3.5k line item under manufacturing for a robot to flip a switch to enable a software setting on already installed hardware. Example w/ non-real numbers: BMW x5 with front facing radar, dealer enabled, cost of goods sold = $31,000. MSRP = $60k. BMW x5 with front facing radar installed, dealer disabled, cogs =$31,000.MSRP= $56.5k. This is not healthy for a company to rely on.
jrochkind1 4y ago
> "Unauthorized Bread"—a tale of jailbreaking refugees versus IoT appliances—is the lead novella in author Cory Doctorow's Radicalized https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-near-future-tale-of-refugees-and-sinister-iot-appliances/ https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-...

runnerup 4y ago

I kind of like the idea of the manufacturers installing hardware that I don’t have to pay for and can enable with a software patch or computer swap.

Andaith 4y ago
If they're installing the hardware you _are_ paying for it, they just want to increase their profits by charging you more money to use the hardware you've already paid for! If it's _your car_ then all the features in the car _belong to you_. Why should you pay a third party additional monies to use features of an object that _you already own_. I think this is despicable, and I won't purchase a car that I can't own outright.
- Anunayj 4y ago
  I think what the parent commenter implied to mean here is, they like when companies put in features (Razor and blade model) and add soft-locks to prohibit people from using them, because they a tech-savvy user can often find a way around it. They think this benefits them, because they can get a device (for example a printer) at cheaper prices at what would be possible, and find ways around (cartridge) soft locks.
  - naasking 4y ago
    > They think this benefits them, because they can get a device (for example a printer) at cheaper prices at what would be possible They think that, but that's wrong. It creates an industry with skewed incentives and less competition. The company can obviously sell the item at the lower cost and thus provide more competitive options to the marketplace, but they're trying to limit competition via software locks instead.
- throwaway0a5e 4y ago
  It's not that simple. Even if they're not installing it you're paying for some of it because of all the overhead it takes to offer the option.
4y ago

sp527 4y ago

They have an option to buy it outright that appears to be priced at the same level as a typical upgrade. They also have 1 and 3 year subscriptions. This is actually a net win for both BMW and for consumers. You can do things like "try extensively before you buy" or even choose to only subscribe during the winter (which they probably expect a lot of people to do). BMW benefits because they're almost certainly expanding the total value they capture in upgrades. It's no longer a single customer decision point. Really savvy and perfectly sensible.

notfromhere 4y ago
You’re paying for the permission to turn on hardware you already paid for
- dexterdog 4y ago
  But you would pay more for it if they had to put it in only certain models based on the packaging. They've done it with satellite radio for a long time now.
  - naasking 4y ago
    Right, so incentivize them to stop trying to reduce competition with software locks. If they can provide the same hardware for cheaper by exploiting economies of scale, that's what we should require them to do. That's what capitalism is good at doing. Software locks are anti-competitive.
_zzaw 4y ago
Haha nope. If I buy the car, I own everything that is in it. Installing extra parts or features? Sure, I'll pay for that. Hardware that's already in the car, and disabled just so the manufacturer can try to squeeze more money out of me? Never. I'll either enable it myself, or refuse to support companies that do such a thing if I can't. Subscription models like this one need to be punished, hard, and/or simply rendered unprofitable. Maybe a few rich chumps are willing to pay, but I think the vast majority of car buyers have no interest in being nickel-and-dimed for the privilege of using hardware they already paid for.

LeeroyWasHere 4y ago

They're working on much worst things... Prepare for car microtransactions.

benj111 4y ago
I wonder what the going rate would be to deploy airbags at the point of impact. I suppose the challenge would be getting consent in-between the crash becoming inevitable and actually happening
- 4ggr0 4y ago
  This is starting to sound like a dystopian cyberpunk world. "Our car tried to deploy the airbags, but the customers credit card was declined" Although to make it even more futuristic, we could replace "credit card" with "crypto wallet" "Please deposit some $BMWTKN to your wallet or sell one of your cars microservices in order for the window-wipers to work again.[...] We detected that your rear-view camera was sold, window-wipers are now activated again."
  - DesiLurker 4y ago
    it will be more like they'll sellout your non-functional airbag and taillight status to cops and get them in on the scam. and of course if you cant pay it all then kids, it'll always end with kids ending up in state's care.
- ridgered4 4y ago
  Didn't this already happen with some motorcycle safety system that required a monthly payment or it would get disabled?
  - bguebert 4y ago
    Is this subscription safety vest what you are thinking of? https://www.inputmag.com/tech/this-motorcycle-airbag-vest-deactivates-if-you-havent-paid-your-sub https://www.inputmag.com/tech/this-motorcycle-airbag-vest-de...

bgdkbtv 4y ago

As a long time fanboy of BMW... they keep breaking my heart. First their questionable design choices, now this.

atwood22 4y ago

Super weird decision from BMW. The brand is all about luxury and performance at all costs. Trying to nickel and dime on seat heaters just seems cheap.

nprateem 4y ago
It's the thin end of the wedge. Want to use the stereo, unlock remotely, etc etc?
- bluGill 4y ago
  The question is will customers stand for it. I know as a used car buyer I won't the subscription so that means the car doesn't have heated seats and is valued that way compared to a different car that does have it. In turn that means BMW is risking lower resale value, and resale is a factor in new car price.
bearmode 4y ago
It's very par-for-the-course for BMW, they have been nickel and diming for years.
rockinghigh 4y ago
BMW did the same when they charged $80/year for Apple CarPlay for their 2019 models. They stopped shortly after.
- mwexler 4y ago
  As a long time BMW buyer, the brand lost me when they floated this plan. The writing was on the wall: they see themselves as a lifestyle, not a car brand, and we'll see more desperate attempts to make consumers a subscription instead of a purchaser. Everyone wants to be Apple, which gets a feedline of subscription revenue from phone purchasers. Note the odd logo change around this time as well (2020 or so), another sign of their attempts to "reinvent" themselves as a services company. https://bimmertips.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/BMW_logo_origin_history_timeline-744x709.jpg https://bimmertips.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/BMW_logo_o... (via https://bimmertips.com/bmw-logo-history-origin/ https://bimmertips.com/bmw-logo-history-origin/) in one picture, and BMW's take at https://www.bmw.com/en/automotive-life/bmw-logo-meaning-history1.html https://www.bmw.com/en/automotive-life/bmw-logo-meaning-hist.... I miss the days when BMW just made really fun cars that I was willing to overpay for, helping my dealer and the factory stay profitable.

2457013579 4y ago

Seems a small step after Tesla’s $2000-$3000 “acceleration boost” software update that came out in December of 2019. https://electriccarpledge.com/tesla-acceleration-boost/ https://electriccarpledge.com/tesla-acceleration-boost/

pornel 4y ago
I can imagine the performance boost putting higher strain on the battery, increasing wear and risk of overheating various components that are under warranty, so unlocks like these could be less than pure greed.

2143 4y ago

I seriously hope this doesn't catch on. For cars with internal combustion engines, the company tends to get constant income via service thanks oil filters, other filters, and a whole bunch of stuff that needs to be replaced (assuming people take it to authorised service centers, which I assume most people do when the car is relatively new). With the transition to EV, those avenues dry up because EVs need lesser maintenance (as per my understanding). So, are they trying to create new recurring income sources due to the possibility of existing such incomes drying up?

EveYoung 4y ago
Isn't this just a new way to pay for already existing options? Instead of paying the full cost in advance, you can spread it over the product's lifetime, and once the car gets resold, the new buyer can "configure" it as they prefer.
- benj111 4y ago
  How much are you suggesting heated seats cost? What would an average owner pay over the lifetime of the vehicle?
  - kabes 4y ago
    $406 for pemanent activation. It's right there in the article...
- 2143 4y ago
  That's assuming manufacturers wouldn't already include the price of rentable hardware in the cost of the car. Would any manufacturers do that? Why would a manufacturer fit in hardware for heated seats into a car, and not charge you for it? Because they hope you will subscribe to the heated seats? This argument breaks down in markets like India, middle East, Malaysia etc where it's hot and humid, and nobody would want to use heated seats. If you don't subscribe, then it'll be a loss for the manufacturers who included the hardware and not charged you for it. Of course, the sane thing would be to not offer heated seats at all in such markets, but as things stand today, heated seats are offered in these hot places (and nobody uses them AFAIK). In the subscription-based future, here's how I think it'll be like: - heated-seat hardware will be present in the car - heated seats will be a rentable option - manufacturers would include the price for it anyway in the cost of the car => customers lose Cars are expensive as it is, so manufacturers can totally get away with it.

deleted 4y ago

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CogitoCogito 4y ago

It would be nice if someone could figure out how to hack these into working without a subscription.

Ajedi32 4y ago
That should indeed be possible. And ideally it'd be illegal for the manufacturer to try to stop you. I've thought about this a bit, and I feel like many of these sort of abuses could be mitigated rather elegantly with some sort of right-to-repair type legislation focused on providing consumers with the ability to modify their property as they see fit. Far less costly than trying to anticipate and ban every possible anti-feature manufacturers could build into their products.

kabes 4y ago

As long as it stays an additional option next to permanent buying it I don't see the problem. Maybe I didn't care for heated seats zt time of purchase, but suddenly it's a very cold winter and I want it for a couple of months. Or someone wants to buy my car, but really wants heated seats can now do so.

deleted 4y ago
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N19PEDL2 4y ago
As per my understanding, you already paid for the heated seats when you bought the car, as they are already installed on board. What you are required to do is to pay a monthly fee in order to use something you already own.
- rexf 4y ago
  They are not requiring you to pay a monthly fee. The feature is available as a $18 monthly fee OR a 1 time $406 fee. [TFA](https://www.motor1.com/news/597376/bmw-heated-seats-subscription/ https://www.motor1.com/news/597376/bmw-heated-seats-subscrip...) says: > Should you want the feature permanently, that'll set you back $406.

bengale 4y ago

I wasn't particularly impressed when I got my new 4 series and had to pay £20 or something like that for auto-highbeams, even if it is a one off. I can sort of understand a subscription for the speed camera data, although its a bit cheap, but for the lights it seemed mad.

wodenokoto 4y ago
20 quid plus minus on the sticker price doesn’t matter at all. 20 quid after the purchase is quite an annoyance. Why didn’t they just add it to the sticker price and everyone would have been happier.
- varjag 4y ago
  There's a department for vehicle add on services at BMW, they have to have their own turnover.
- bengale 4y ago
  Yeah that was my general feeling. I'm paying upwards of £40k for the car and the first day I press a button and get told I can "buy" the feature, not a good experience.
ehnto 4y ago
Dealer options have been around for a long time, but usually the equipment isn't already fitted to the car, the dealer has to add it. I think that's why this approach feels so inauthentic. Your car has the equipment, but you're not allowed to use it, even though it's there, and you own it...

senectus1 4y ago

so you buy the car, fully equipped with the heat seating... but you can't turn it on unless you pay a subscription fee? I had to double check this wasn't an Onion article. thats one of the most dumbest brand burning idea's I've ever seen. I'm happy enough with my Mid range Rav4 Hybrid that comes with seat heaters and no subscription fee thanks...

dexterdog 4y ago
It's not a terrible idea for a lot of stuff. It's much more economical to add many features on all vehicles than to package them. Then you can individual menu out the items to the people who want them.
- mnkmnk 4y ago
  If it is economical, the benefits must be passed on to the consumers. Maybe luxury cars have become commoditised and BMW can’t think of any new innovative thing to charge for so this is what they do.
james_pm 4y ago
https://www.theverge.com/2021/12/12/22831105/toyota-subscription-remote-start-key-fob https://www.theverge.com/2021/12/12/22831105/toyota-subscrip... In case you thought Toyota wouldn't do the same thing.
DesiLurker 4y ago
eventually it'll be subscription advanced airbags (as opposed to basic ones) bundled with remote start and sirius.

ClumsyPilot 4y ago

We are rapidly moving towards Feudalism. If someone can charge you for using things you already bought and 'own', then average man has no property rights. The fee could be increased at any time, or new fees could be introduced. As the housing crysis deepens, average person will never own a home either. So average person will be in the same position as a medieval serf, conpletely dependand on the whims of the lord, probably living in debt starting from the student loan and dying in debt.

andrekandre 4y ago
> If someone can charge you for using things you already bought and 'own', then average man has no property rights. it seems a natural progression once you've saturated the market and new avenues are closed to further growth; you find a way to add subscriptions and "value adds"...
alexpotato 4y ago
We've all ready reached that for lots of other parts of the consumer spectrum. e.g. you used to own your music and movie collection but now you rent access to it via Spotify, Amazon Music, Netflix etc Even games: it used to be it was YOUR game but now you pay a subscription.
- ausbah 4y ago
  I think the value proposition with stuff like Spotify is different. a.) there are still services where you can own your copy of the music, there is still - at least some semblance of - consumer choice. b.) the amount and variety of music I listen to on Spotify and pay per month is WAY more than paying for individual songs (at least personally)
  - prawn 4y ago
    And I think there's some value in not actually having the music in physical form, at least as we knew it. I have fond memories of the music I discovered and enjoyed on tape and CD (only owned 2-3 records), but I don't miss the CD towers and shelves of video tapes. Even if you cart around audio files on 5TB portable drives, or have a drive per key location (home, office, etc) there are advantages to streaming. One less drive I need to maintain. Losing everything when you unsubscribe is shitty though. I guess that's the choice made.

analog31 4y ago

I can see it for some exterior feature of the car such as gold plated trim or fancy rims, but you would really have to be "in the know" about this brand, to know that someone has paid an extra $18/mo for this feature. Unless you ride with them. Still, if this becomes a way that I can get a cheaper car by declining all of the add-ons, or if it lowers the price of used cars, I'll be happy.

andrekandre 4y ago

> A similar subscription plan is offered for a heated steering wheel and it costs $10 per month, $92 annually, and $161 for three years. You can also buy it outright for $222. isnt this what in the old days was what they (adam smith et al) meant when they talked about economic rents and (rent) free markets...?

Jemm 4y ago

People who pay a subscription to use an item they bought for are part of the problem.

GoToRO 4y ago

The people should charge BMW more for renting space in their car for seat heaters.

tomxor 4y ago
Don't forget the rent for the parking space, they don't come cheap these days.

gfunk911 4y ago

This seems no different than Intel manufacturing fewer distinct things and using CPU locking to sell at more price points. https://www.techopedia.com/definition/2239/cpu-lock https://www.techopedia.com/definition/2239/cpu-lock It’s cheaper to physically put the functionality in all the cars than to differentiate at assembly time. We don’t have the same visceral reaction to paying for options at the dealer. (I am assuming they aren’t adding this charge RETROACTIVELY. That’s very different)

atty 4y ago
I’d be fine if every vehicle had the hardware in it and it was activated via an upsell at the dealership. I think the truly insidious thing here is the subscription aspect, for all the various reasons other people in the responses have stated. I’m ok with Intel doing the same thing. But if Intel started selling AVX512 with a monthly subscription I’d ever buy an Intel chip again.
norman784 4y ago
Isn’t that most of the low end processors have deffects, so they trim down (yes, blocking some features, cores, etc) and selling you at lower prices, but the thing is, you know beforehand what are you buying, without any hidden subscription, etc, also is cheaper than the full featured one, so I’m not particularly mad about it.
xuhu 4y ago
Are you paying Intel $18 per month for your extra cores ?
- thrtythreeforty 4y ago
  No, although IBM did the same thing with mainframes, and yes customers did make a phone call to unlock some extra hardware. Or pay per instruction executed. IBM had lots of creative ways to charge for mainframes.
naasking 4y ago
You are correct, it is no different, and it's wrong when Intel does it too, assuming the CPU hardware really is identical and it's purely a software lock that the user can't work around.

jmrm 4y ago

If companies continues adding more subscription options in more models it will make some aftermarket electronic modules, or simply jailbreak hacks, to bypass those locks. It happened already in the Tesla, and I don't think it will stop here.

norman784 4y ago
This is pure speculation, but I suspect that they have some kind of DRM to prevent you on using those features, that means if you break a DRM, then you are at fault here, while I don’t agree, this seems similar to the case of one wheel that they block the motherboard if you unplug the battery, if you plug again the same battery it doesn’t matter, the motherboard is already blocked, and because of intellectual property (I don’t remember the details on what they did) you cannot "hack" the motherboard without breaking the law. This is becoming so sad in all aspects, soon this kind of practices will get to PCs? where the motherboard will also have subscriptions, even maybe cpu and gpu.
- jmrm 4y ago
  This is sadly already happening. In Europe, car garages need to update their diagnosis machines, or even pay[1], to get some keys from Renault to being able to do anything in their newer models. Even their low-cost subbranch Dacia need those keys. They say they do that to prevent attacks from the OBD port (used commonly to steal cars). This not only is absolutely an anti-consumer practice, but also is probably a pretty temporal and ineffective solution to prevent your car being stolen[2]. Nowadays, is pretty common to need to program some kind of electronic module in the car for some parts replacements, and with that, they are preventing people and small and new car garages to do that kind of repairs. Heck, even the TPMS control module need to "re-learn" "where is who" when you rotate your tyres. [1]: Usually diagnosis machines have a subscription-based system where they provide you not only new car models software packages, but also instructions about how to do part replacements. [2]: AFAIK, most stolen cars are really easy to stole (like the 80s/90s Honda's) or really valuable (and they provide tools, ECMs, or whatever they need to stole them).
macNchz 4y ago

ubermonkey 4y ago

BMW has already shown itself to be skeevy by attempting to charge a fee for Apple's CarPlay; fortunately, if memory serves, they backed down from that. I'll never buy another BMW, and I won't buy a car from a company that follows suit. It's gross.

aabhay 4y ago

Am I the only one that actually likes this idea? I live in Austin, where we only need heated seats like three months out of the year at most. On top of that, if I pay $999 for heated seats as an addon, that’s equivalent to 4.5 years of subscription at $18/m. If I could turn off lots of features while I’m on vacation, etc. I think that’s a huge win. But clearly I’m in the extreme minority.

basicplus2 4y ago
Or...you could put a switch on your dash that turns the heaters on and off as you wish..
- chrisseaton 4y ago
  That just means you're paying the same money up front rather than as a subscription. Why's that better?
  - lpapez 4y ago
    The heated seats are already in the car, this is about paying more to unlock something you already paid for.
    - chrisseaton 4y ago
      > something you already paid for No - you can either pay for the option one-time up front (the article says), or you can pay a subscription. You don't pay for the option up-front and also pay the subscription. Depending on your circumstances, one of these two ways to pay will be cheaper for you. It may be the subscription. Or you can not pay at all and never pay for the feature and forget about it. If you never pay at all I guess you're 'paying' to carry the hardware around but not using it, in terms of extra fuel consumed. But maybe the baseline car ends up being cheaper for you as it simplifies the production line to install it everywhere?
      - naasking 4y ago

Zenst 4y ago

Does somewhat seem to play into the dystopian economic models that we all love to read and watch, but not experience. Though marketing models for things you already have, is just handing over money so you can enable a feature you own and they add nothing. No AI to measure your heating needs or add on's ahead, just money to turn on the heat with no added value. Shame as when your business model is a death of an innocent away (say child died of hypothermia as unable to enable the heating) from a PR disaster - then it's in need of some adjustments. But certainly, will encourage people with little skill and lots of willingness to try modifying their cars they own.

siscia 4y ago

At first was a little uncomfortable with the change, but then I thought how much would it be today to add those optionals to a new car. Checking from my phone, the heated steering wheel is more than 300$, which is more than what would cost the permanent upgrade in the car. Now we should wonder, having a construction line and distribution system capable of handling optionals like the heated steering wheel, does it cost more or less than 300$? I don't think that the answer is obvious. Would it be possible that the car get actually cheaper for the consumers? Also having those optionals allow to turn them on and off at will. Maybe if I swap car with my SO it would like the heated seat that I never care for. I see the dangerous of this, but I also see the benefits.

petesergeant 4y ago
Also, this means your car can be resold to someone who wants heated seats and a steering wheel, even if you didn't want it (and didn't have to pay for it).

technological 4y ago

I wish instead of subscription they make car more modular (I mean certain features). So I can opt out things I don’t want and add later

weberer 4y ago

"You will own nothing and you will be happy"

perfectstorm 4y ago

welcome to the new subscription economy courtesy of Apple and Google.

wonderwonder 4y ago

Article didn't really cover this but do you still have to pay more for a car that has the heated seats and steering wheel options and then a monthly fee to use them or do all the target cars in SK come with these features standard? If you have to pay more just to have the option of paying to turn on the subscription then that is insane.

nixpulvis 4y ago
This is almost an irrelevant point. If the hardware is installed and you own the damn car, you should be able to turn on the damn heaters. Would be interesting to know I suppose though.
- sumtechguy 4y ago
  It does seem to rub people the wrong way. Of a 'wait I have the part but you want 20 bucks a month for me to use it?!' get out of here. I watched one restaurant try something like this. It was a fairly high end restaurant. They came in and started charging for salads. They were so proud of 500-1000 extra per month they were making. What they did not notice was their clientele just decided to not be treated like that. The place went from 2 hour wait to get into, to the servers fighting to get tables, within a year, out of business 2 years later. They could have put the cost into the meal and no one would have batted an eye. Instead they came off as cheap and gouging.
- nicce 4y ago
  I guess some could try to sue BMW for including this extra waste and not accounting it in the price. The cost of renting the space for the waste and the energy for moving them around.

chewz 4y ago

Good news is that all bmw's come with all the options just turned off via software.. So be smart guys, this is called hacker news for a reason... Just buy bare metal bmw and turn all luxury options on... (and BMW is traditionally very dumb on security)...

_fat_santa 4y ago
Hackers are rejoicing at this subscription movement because now they can get a fully loaded BMW for the price of a base model.
- WXLCKNO 4y ago
  Downloading these Tartufo merino leather seats for free.
- Mo3 4y ago
  Downloading a car has never become more realistic
dotancohen 4y ago
> Just buy bare metal bmw and turn all luxury options on Bring My (own) Warmers.
mdtancsa 4y ago
I wonder if I could build and app / service for them -- TSOAS (aka Turn Shit Off As a Service) and charge them a small monthly fee to do it. BMW should be in the business of building cars, not pissing off people. They could outsource that to me as a service!
queuebert 4y ago
Purposefully dumb I suspect, because BMW has a strong modding enthusiast following.
growse 4y ago
Except.... This isn't true. I can't just "turn on" adaptive headlights because the vehicle doesn't have the necessary camera to scan the road for oncoming cars installed. I can't just "turn on" adaptive cruise control, because my vehicle doesn't have the necessary front radar installed. I can't just "turn on" the HUD, because my vehicle doesn't have the necessary dash components physically installed. The number of different hardware permutations of most modern cars is eye-watering. For most options, if you didn't get it installed from the factory, you're looking at an expense retrofit.

LatteLazy 4y ago

When real interest rates and inflation are low, recurring revenue looks really attractive, because the NPV is high. That makes sense and I see how that drives subscription models for everything from movies to phones to car seats. But now interest rates are rising and inflation is high, I can't help but think BMW have missed the boat and are pursuing a model that would have been a great idea in 2008 but with hindsight will look dumb when 2030 people look back at us.

jms703 4y ago

I can see why a car manufacturer would not want to make two versions of each car, one with heated seats and one without. Instead, build it into all of them, and only activate and charge those that actually need it. Also, the subscription is an option. You can also pay the full price for the feature. Where I live, I could see using this once or two months a year. Whereas some would need it more and they might just buy the option outright.

themodelplumber 4y ago
Plus you could buy or make other economical heating solutions for your seats...BMW driver notwithstanding
athorax 4y ago
It is mind blowing that this is something people are willing to accept. The feature is there, the ecological damage is done already by including those extra resources, and you've paid for the vehicle but don't actually own its capabilities.
- winReInstall 4y ago
  + Seat heaters are heavy. You drive them around all year long, they will show up on your fuel bill one way or another.
  - Mo3 4y ago
    Really? I assumed it’s just some wires in a seat..
  - wiseleo 4y ago
    They are small light-weight pads.
    - winReInstall 4y ago
      0.25 kg without the wiring per seat, adds up to 5 seats * 0.25kg + tons of coper wiring.

stuckinhell 4y ago

You won't own anything, and you will be happy (not). This is truly insane, its WORSE than feudalism. https://www.businessinsider.com/american-worker-less-vacation-medieval-peasant-2016-11 https://www.businessinsider.com/american-worker-less-vacatio...

cm42 4y ago

Do they have to pay extra for the turn signals too?

lkxijlewlf 4y ago

How soon until your car tells BMW that it's cold outside and BMW turns on the heated seats and puts an ad on your display, "For just $18/Month, this feature could be yours!"

mynegation 4y ago

If you want to know the future, read Philip K. Dick (this subject is straight from "Ubik") and Vernor Vinge's "Rainbows End".

midhhhthrow 4y ago

AS a consumer I absolutely hate subscriptions. I will never own a subscription to anything I can replace for something else. I bought solar panels to avoid electric subscription, etc. I never buy on credit, etc

thatsnotmepls 4y ago
What about your mobile data subscription? ISP subscription?
hellisothers 4y ago
I can sympathize not wanting subscriptions but credit, that’s a game to build wealth that is usually worth playing.
- Clubber 4y ago
  >credit, that’s a game to build wealth that is usually worth playing. He's talking about consumer goods which typically have a negative ROI.

dangus 4y ago

Unpopular opinion: this could be a consumer benefit, although BMW doesn’t seem to quite have the value proposition exactly where I’d like it to be. It’s cheaper to build fewer SKUs and variations of a product. The fact that the assembly line never has to change what they’re installing in the car could make heated seats cheaper in the first place. BMW currently charges $500 for heated seats a la carte in the US, so that costs 1.76 times more than the 3 year subscription at $283. That means your breakeven point is at a little bit over 5 years, without considering present and future value of money. I could see a lot of BMW owners being completely uninterested in owning the car after 5 years, with so many of them choosing to lease. It is a luxury car, after all. Now, here’s the other thing, if you do the monthly plan, presumably you could unsubscribe in the summer. So that’s more like $54 a year if you need it for three months of the year. That puts your breakeven point at close to 10 years! BMW does have a lifetime purchase option, too. I hope these purchases are tied to the vehicle and not the owner, but I have my doubts on BMW being so benevolent. I also think it would be ideal if hardware subscriptions like this would simply unlock once the car reaches a certain age to consider its depreciated status.

juve1996 4y ago
Yea, you can't use it in the summer and save those months. But what if BMW says "the costs went up, subscription price must raise." Now in 3 years it's $25 a month. This is the path. Companies exist for profit. They will only make customers as happy as they need to.
- dangus 4y ago
  It's true that they've always existed for a profit. BMW doesn't operate in a bubble and has a wide selection of competitors, so if their pricing and terms are too unreasonable, customers will go elsewhere. I think these connected services are aimed at lessees who are the bread and butter of BMW's business. Someone leasing this car would actually save money by "renting" the heated seats, next owner be damned. Still, I'm definitely not trying to say that this is a wonderful, wonderful thing. But, considering that a "lifetime" purchase option still exists, I think this represents example of giving customers more options than they previously had.

labrador 4y ago

Imagine paying a company $18 a month to warm your butt. Imagine going back in time and telling your great-grandfather you pay someone to warm your butt.

asteroidbelt 4y ago
Imagine living in cold climate. Heated seats is very nice to have in certain places where temp below -20C is not uncommon. (Paid monthly subscription is a different issue though.)
- labrador 4y ago
  I come from a family where my father refused to use the AC in the car no matter how hot it was because it lowered the gas mileage

fny 4y ago

What dumbass executive greenlighted this? $18 per month over 10 years is $2,160. MSRP for the 2020 2 Series--BMW's cheapest sedan--is $35,300. So instead of charging $2K--5% more--for heated seats out right they have no gone through the expense of (1) building the software, billing, and support infrastructure to manage this (2) pissing off customers. I'm assuming they're also streamlining production by building heated seats into every car instead of selective models, but again, why not just go with a permanent upgrade model? Everyone buys heated seats, BWM provides a special chip to activate them.

athorax 4y ago
Exactly. This is probably a $300 actual cost item they have to charge 5x for to pay for all the supporting infrastructure and software engineers
- onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
  Yes, but this is the future they want to move to where you pay $60k for your car, but you need to also pay them $1k per month (for nothing) to drive it - obviously not including your insurance or gas. To grow profits in excess of inflation in a saturated market, you must charge your costumers continuously more for the same product.
wingerlang 4y ago
I suspect the heated seats were/are just a simple thing they could add onto the infrastructure, which must support a lot more services than just the seats.
winReInstall 4y ago
I find this great, let them build under priced cars, goto a shop and get the "all features go" chip welded in and pirated firmware. Shareholders financially supporting customers driving better then they could afford, the same fate that you can expect for tesla. Which reminds me what is the tesla dark quota? How many cars totally disappear from the always connected feature and never reconnect?
4y ago

SergeAx 4y ago

Probably, that guy in front of me just can't afford his turning lights subscription.

prsutherland 4y ago

Not clear if you need a car first, or if they will mail you a seat like the old netflix dvd model.

StanislavPetrov 4y ago

One of many reasons that when my current car gives out, I'm eyeing a 1970s era pickup. I like to actually own the things I buy, rather than being forced to pay subscription fees for features of a car I own. Or have components of the car that I own "phone home" with information about my vehicle, my driving habits or my location.

the-anarchist 4y ago

Modern cars are all in all pretty awful. They are the posterboys of technology that took a wrong turn at some point. Modern engines/electric engines? Fine. Some electronics to assist driving and engine management? Okay. Safety features? Sure. But everything else is basically the automobile equivalent of a modern web browser.

FunnyBadger 4y ago

I'm a serial BMW owner (on my 8th) but this ends my relationship with BMW forever.