11 ms·

How to Do Nothing with Nobody All Alone by Yourself (2014)

272 points by fbn79 4y ago

bowsamic 4y ago
> What I call zazen is not developing concentration by stages and so on. It is simply the Awakened One's own easy and joyful practice, it is realized-practice within already manifest enlightenment. It is the display of complete reality. Traps and cages spring open. Grasping the heart of this, you are the dragon who has reached his waters, the tiger resting in her mountains. Understand that right here is the display of Vast Reality and then dullness and mental wandering have no place to arise. https://wwzc.org/dharma-text/fukanzazengi-how-everyone-can-sit https://wwzc.org/dharma-text/fukanzazengi-how-everyone-can-s... Returning to the joyful ease of a child, not putting distinctions and discriminations on play, or worrying about the next thing or even doing the current thing well, is what we train by sitting zazen in Zen Buddhism
- tuxie_ 4y ago
  > not putting distinctions and discriminations on play Honestly that stands out for me from your comment. What do you mean? It does not follow logically, at least for me, from the rest of the things you mention.
  - bowsamic 4y ago
    Zazen is about sitting without making distinctions. If a good feeling arises, we treat it the same as a bad feeling, we just let it arise and pass without judging it. Same for distinguishing between self and other, etc. Zazen is a practise for learning how to cultivate a mind that does not attach to discriminations or distinctions between different mental or physical states or objects. We put distinctions on the world because we think it's necessary to be able to actually live here, but actually if you let go of distinctions you will find that life lives on as normal and you still somehow know what to do but in a much more liberated way. "Not putting distinctions and discriminations on play" means to play without making distinctions or discriminations, such as: "am I playing right?", "am I being too loud?", "is this a good use of my time?", "could I be doing something more productive?", etc. Most adults cannot play without attaching to those questions and being bothered by them. One way to learn to not attach to those questions is to practise zazen
    - Dudeman112 4y ago
      >We put distinctions on the world because we think it's necessary to be able to actually live here You'll find that living on the world without distinctions in some places will get you shot or eaten by wildlife. Which does make your life in the world a wee shorter, yes... Although at that point I guess someone truly enlightened wouldn't mind it
      - bowsamic 4y ago
        Have you tried it? If you did you will realise that actually it isn't our attachment to distinctions that propels us, but there is an automatic animal decision making process before we rationalise about it. We actually do this a lot but we just don't realise it, afterwards we think that our rational sense of "I" is in the driving seat but really it is a bit different. As I said, it's hard to believe that you could live a life like that, but I promise you that after dropping distinctions you will handle the person shouting at you or the bear attacking you far more effectively than you would if you were rationally deliberating over it. But you'll have to try it to believe me perhaps, I was surprised too. Part of the reason why enlightenment is a long and difficult process is because we are so convinced that we need to hold onto things to keep surviving. Some people are so shocked by the realisation that they even commit suicide, particularly if done in an unsafe setting without support.
        Dudeman112 4y ago
        I don't think deliberate thoughts are the best tools for all circumstances. That's not my point Actually getting rid of distinctions requires an overwriting of the non-deliberate thought processes too. You won't "handle" the person shouting at you or the bear attacking you more effectively, you won't handle anything at all. You'll just be the cognitive equivalent of a rock, but in human flesh You seem to be using "distinctions" as a synonym for deliberate thought (I could be wrong, of course)
        bowsamic 4y ago
        Yes, by distinctions I mean rational deliberate ones that arise from attachments to ideas that we have about the world. For example the idea that I am me and you are you. We are attached to this idea and act in a non-optimal way due to it. Being before that mind is called "prajna" or wisdom in Buddhism, prajnaparamita being the "perfection of wisdom". I don't mean the distinctions made by our material condition such as hunger or flight and fight, I mean the reactions to those things. It is the Buddha's parable of the two arrows: the first arrow (pain) is unavoidable, however we also then take on an unecessary second arrow (negative emotional reaction to pain) that is totally avoidable. I'm talking about the second part. Letting go of our conscious attachment to distinctions and discriminations we can play like children again
walty8 4y ago
thanks, my son would love this :)
bigDinosaur 4y ago
Even better, do these things with someone else! You're always existentially alone, so no need to make practical life too lonesome either!
- teh_klev 4y ago
  > Even better, do these things with someone else Sure but that's missing the point of the book.
  - smokey_circles 4y ago
    People are not meant to alone. If the book is advising to do things alone, I advise not reading the book
    - the_gipsy 4y ago
      Meant by who? You? God?
      - ano88888 4y ago
        evolution. It is in our DNA to be social. Most of us will die without social connections
        cossatot 4y ago
        This book is about learning how to entertain yourself alone during your free time, not mandating that you only recreate alone, much less disconnecting yourself from society altogether.
        DocTomoe 4y ago
        People without social connections die earlier statistically, but that can be explained by outside effects (e.g. if you do not live in a family structure, chances are you'll be found too late after suffering from a heart attack or stroke; less people around you means less immunisation for common diseases; no friends means a house fire may stress you out more and you becoming homeless ...). Calling that "most would be dying from no social connections" still seems a bit a far reach. Also, the "we need to be around people at all times" seems to be less determined by genes, but by culture: people in other cultures and at other times seem to have been fine with extended periods of no human contact. Think the 'forest dwellers' in Hindu culture, or monastic hermits.
sitkack 4y ago
The author has another equally wholesome book, "Where Did You Go? Out. What Did You Do? Nothing."
kashyapc 4y ago
Quoting from a past comment[1]. This is from the late Mihály Csíkszentmihályi (of "flow" fame): "The ultimate test for the ability to control the quality of experience is what a person does in solitude, with no external demands to give structure to attention. It is relatively easy to become involved with a job, to enjoy the company of friends, to be entertained in a theater or at a concert. But what happens when we are left to our own devices? Alone, when the dark night of the soul descends, are we forced into frantic attempts to distract the mind from its coming? Or are we able to take on activities that are not only enjoyable, but make the self grow?" [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28942369 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28942369
- dinvlad 4y ago
  Very profound, thanks for sharing!
- danadannecy 4y ago
  Would you recommend reading Flow if I've already engaged with the concept of flow itself outside of the book?
  - hasbot 4y ago
    No. It's been decades since I read the book but the concept is simple and quickly in understood and doesn't need a book-length treatment. He doesn't give any guidance on how to achieve the flow state which is what I was looking for.
    - kashyapc 4y ago
      The topic certainly deserves a book-length treatment (it's only some 300 pages). He explores the idea with great rigour. I've read it 7 years ago, and just went through some of my Kindle notes. There's ample guidance. But the reader must put in some work to extract the value. If you're in a hurry, you won't get much out of it (or any book).
  - kashyapc 4y ago
thyrox 4y ago
This post reminds me of the life of Christopher mccandless, the protagonist of into the wild. McCandless had happily escaped humanity his whole life, only to find that happiness itself can only be amplified when shared. One of his final quotes being: “Happiness only real when shared.”
- Otek 4y ago
  This is something many people overlook when they glorify this character
- DIARRHEA_xd 4y ago
  Let's pretend his passion was Nascar driving...
- silicon2401 4y ago
  I interpret that in the complete opposite way: he was a deeply unhappy person who didn't realize it until he really experienced being alone. I can be just as happy alone as when I'm with people so the sentiment certainly doesn't apply to some people
- SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
  I feel like describing him as a protagonist of book/movie misses that he was a real person.
WA 4y ago
I spend quite a lot of time alone by myself. I usually go for a walk or ride my bike. Going to the library is another way to fill your brain with other peoples’ ideas, just like scrolling social media. But I have to be honest: there are zero profound thoughts when I’m alone. I sometimes get ideas for what I could work on. Write this article or that, make a standup comedy show. Write some junk porn novel. It’s entertaining while it lasts and after a while, the thoughts are gone and having thought about them, the drive to implement them is gone, too. It’s literally like writing things on a TODO list and feeling good about having it written down, but the desire to do them is gone. So, since I don’t get profound motivation or breakthroughs or whatever, I treat time alone as some kind of mental garbage collector. At least I get to move my body. So, what’s the lesson here? I don’t know. Maybe that being alone to improve something is bullshit. Go out alone if it suits you, don’t expect profound thoughts. At least that’s how I am :) Edit: last paragraph
- ffritz 4y ago
  That sounds very normal, at least it’s the same for me. Sometimes I spent a considerable amount of time brainstorming an idea or concept over and over during alone times, and then at some point it won’t return to my thoughts again, but something new replaces it. Sort of like I am “done” with that thought and my brain wants to move on. I don’t know why that happens, but I guess I get stimulation simply from that iterative thought process. Thus your garbage collector comparison seems accurate to me. Secretly though, I do hope to get that business idea at some point via that process. Not sure if that’s ever going to happen, but that’s okay too.
- ly3xqhl8g9 4y ago
  i do not believe being alone is meant to be the source of profundity, but of serenity · it is much cheaper (energy/time) to obtain profundity from others, but serenity can only be obtained after acknowledging that whatever i call I is always already locked in some kind of inside and only by being alone i can regulate this inside in such a manner as to be(wel)come (the) serene => alone not to improve, but to survive
- ratww 4y ago
  I think the scope of what you think matters. For me it’s the same as you, but only with “big” ideas that will require a lot of effort to get off the ground. But I have been able to have a lot of great (to me) breakthroughs by focusing on smaller ideas: melodies or lyrics for a song, ideas for an algorithm or architecture for something I’m working on, perhaps planning a whole talk or presentation. I believe most of us who are developers do that at work already, so it’s not too hard to extend it to alone time or exercise time. On the other hand, I had the idea for a business I’m currently starting on one of those walks. So there’s exceptions.
nonrandomstring 4y ago
This article caught my wandering attention today during an intermittent fast. Normally I'd take a light exercise day to burn a bit more, but a minor injury is telling me to take it easy. Reading HN and tinkering with code isn't enough. Fasting makes me restless. I almost never get "bored", but this brings it on. I want to break the link between boredom and waves of hunger. How we manage solitude and how we manage hunger seem connected.
donkeyd 4y ago
A couple of years ago, I was going through a short stint of burn-out. I needed some time away, so I put a mattress in the back of my car and went to Germany for a few days. I loved the idea of not having to go anywhere and not having to discuss the next location with anyone. If I saw a place with a nice view around dinner time, I'd just stop there, warm up some food and eat, enjoying the view. Those couple of days were zen. I need to do this again some time, but for some reason when not burnt out, people are less accepting of this kind of thing.
- hef19898 4y ago
  Sounds like a great vacation! And never mind other peoples opinions, some even call what you did "Vanlife", I know it as camping. If you enjoy, just do it!
- tinsmith 4y ago
  There is something to be said for the recovery that comes with just experiencing a place in the world without any agenda or accountability beyond simply being a living being. I'm glad you got to experience that. i've achieved this maybe a handful of times in my life, and it seems significantly harder to do in the US than elsewhere.
- mikepurvis 4y ago
  I did a spiritual retreat a few months ago at a Jesuit centre, and I think it was a bit like this— just leaving my phone in my room and spending the entire day taking everything an hour at a time with no obligations or timelines or goals at all. Obviously the religious side of it isn't going to be for everyone, but absolutely the "hard break from the real world" side can be.
amelius 4y ago
"All human evil comes from a single cause, man's inability to sit still in a room." -- Blaise Pascal
- makeitdouble 4y ago
  Then our cultures will actively penalize people who can sit still and be happy doing nothing. “laziness” is a cardinal sin and “lack of ambition” a critical issue.
  - goldfeld 4y ago
    However possibly he meant sit still usefully, otherwise why sit rather than lounge in an ottoman? sit still, that is, sustain study, or read literature, or have creative idylls, write, comtemplate the inner realms. Sounds to me like the quote is the classical ideal of useful employment, by which comparison much social interaction or being glued to a phone is judged as laziness or, anachronically, dissipation.
    - makeitdouble 4y ago
      The sitting part is actually not in the original quote (“Tout le malheur des hommes vient d’une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos dans une chambre”). It was just about staying at rest in a room. Note that “at rest” being specified, it really was about doing nothing. And sure, Blaise Pascal was extremely active, extremely prolific since his very early days, and he probably couldn’t stay still doing nothing for long.
      - saltcured 4y ago
        Yes, I always thought this was meant a bit tongue-in-cheek as a tautology: the sins (and wonders) of man stem from the compulsion to exercise ones agency.
        rramadass 4y ago
        >the sins (and wonders) of man stem from the compulsion to exercise ones agency. Nice turn of phrase. Is it yours or are you quoting from someone else?
burnaway 4y ago
meta -- i'm just wondering if the OP found this blog post through the https://projectnaptha.com https://projectnaptha.com main page screenshot of the book. these two posts are side-by-side on HN now and it gave me the chills "what a coincidence" - perhaps not.
- fbn79 4y ago
  I confirm your suspect! =)
crispyambulance 4y ago
This is adjacent to the notion of a "Flâneur", someone who idly wanders a city with nothing in particular to do, but who engages with it intellectually and socially. It very much requires a high level of privledge or, in more rare cases (these days), the ability to survive in poverty looking like a homeless person yet still be interesting and welcomed by others. For Gen-X, this was also known as being a "slacker". It was good while it lasted.
- ThalesX 4y ago
  > This is adjacent to the notion of a "Flâneur", someone who idly wanders a city with nothing in particular to do, but who engages with it intellectually and socially. I've recently started watching Seinfeld again. Kramer seems like exactly this kind of character.
- mgdlbp 4y ago
  Just last week! Flânerie: The Art of Aimless Strolling - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32002486 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32002486 (125 comments)
dmje 4y ago
This highlights what bothers me most about today's [mobile] culture. There are reams of other things to say about the damage being done (I'd recommend Johann Hari's book Stolen Focus [0] for a great, if severely worrying, overview) - but to me the ability to spend time doing nothing, being with oneself, being alone, living with one's thoughts - this is a hugely important thing. Other people on the thread point out that "not much happens" when they spend time alone - to which I'd say: that's the point. Your brain needs time to process, to chew through, to formulate, to make sense of... all the things it has been spending time doing. So yeh, sometimes ideas happen in these spaces (ideas certainly don't happen where there's no space!), but sometimes nothing at all "happens". And...that's important. As well as that, the constant-always-filled-always-on culture created by mobile devices takes you away from the present moment. It's like the least mindful thing you can be doing, and given the quantities of evidence around happiness, flow, focus, etc - just being in the world is a critically important thing. The other angle is about the ego in all of this. One of the strange things that comes out of a meditation practice is that (and bear with me here, it sounds weird) - when you spend more time with yourself, focusing on what your inner voice is saying, without constant distraction, you actually become very much better at being empathetic in the world. Because you understand more about who you are (and, ultimately, who your "self" isn't...), you get to understand more about other people and who they are. I wouldn't be at all surprised if being good at being alone also boosted this sense of empathy for others. It sounds counter-intuitive, but I suspect it's true. [0] https://stolenfocusbook.com/ https://stolenfocusbook.com/
taffronaut 4y ago
I borrowed this book from a library at age 10 or so - 50 years ago. As a kid, when we went on holiday as a family the first thing we would do would be to visit the library at our destination and get 'visitor tickets'. I was an only child (still am) and was expected to amuse myself. The title is perfect for an only child. I read this book pretty much cover to cover one holiday and remember making darts out of sewing needles and matchsticks.
NoGravitas 4y ago
"Boredom is insight into the essentially void nature of our existence and the existence of all things" — Keiji Nishitani
memcg 4y ago
I am reminded of James Thurber's short story "The Secret Life of Walter Mitty." So much of my life has required just waiting, so daydreaming, people watching and hyper-focusing on my surroundings have become valuable skills. These skills allow me to "be there" for others. My mom had many surgeries and I would go to the hospital and just wait with my dad. We said little. He would read paperback fiction, a pastime he learned riding in carpools, but he was not alone.
personjerry 4y ago
I find that my computer is stealing all my time. My default is to sit in front of my computer. I'll write an email, jot a few notes. Inevitably I will open up a video or a game and distract myself. If I'm spending time with myself and I'm at home, I'm on my computer. I think it's a problem. I'm considering thinking about it some more and writing a blog post on it.
- glouwbug 4y ago
  Will you sit in front of your computer when you write your blog post?
  - personjerry 4y ago
    Yeah. I mean that's the thing, sitting in front of the computer is a necessity because you need to type ideas. So your screen has to become a catalyst for your thoughts instead of being a distraction. You have to build an "environment" where you can "blog" or w/e you deem productive. I've been looking at https://kinopio.club/ https://kinopio.club/ to be my "default screen on computer start" for organizing thoughts, but it's not perfect.
    - nobodywasishere 4y ago
      You could use a notebook and handwrite things instead, that helps me.
    - ratrocket 4y ago
      This probably isn't what you're after, but you can blog via a pen & notebook with Paper website: https://daily.tinyprojects.dev/paper_website https://daily.tinyprojects.dev/paper_website (no affiliation and haven't used it, but I love the idea and that person's "tiny projects" are super cool!)
gernb 4y ago
Just at the start > now more than ever, it seems — have a profound civilizational anxiety about being alone. It seems to me the "natural" state of things is to NOT be alone. Did cavemen survive if they were alone? It use to be common for the majority of people in the world it live in single room houses. I'd think the "natural = better" crowd would be very much of the thought that being alone is a symptom of modern society. I'm not personally saying that being alone is bad. Only that the framing seems to be that not having alone time is bad and that seems like a strange framing to me if for most of our existance we were rarely alone. Also, I notice almost none of the comments are about the "Do nothing" part. They're all about "do something with nobody all alone by yourself", not "do *nothing* with nobody all alone by yourself"
- fleddr 4y ago
  You're right. Being alone and the very idea of privacy is a modern "luxury". It did not exist as hunter gatherers nor in the "african village" model. In some cultures, it still doesn't exist, think a multi generational home where rooms are shared with many people. I think indeed the emphasis should be on the "do nothing" part. Which very much is natural. I've once read that hunter gatherers "worked" for about 4 hours per day. As for the rest of the day? Rest, watch the sun set, gaze at the stars. Many animals also do fuck all for a considerable part of the day.
- naasking 4y ago
  There is no such thing as a natural state. At all stages of human development you'll find loners who lived off by themselves in the woods, like shaman or trappers, and others who formed towns and tribes. As for the "do nothing" part, you'll find plenty of people here who meditate regularly. That's the pinnacle of doing nothing, all alone by yourself.
ianferrel 4y ago
I read this book as a child in the 1990s. I think I picked it up at a garage sale, along with another of his books "Where did you go?" Out "What did you do?" Nothing", an entertaining memoir of his youth and all the nonsense he got up to with the other kids. Highly recommended by 12-year-old me.
ribs 4y ago
"[The Internet] also grows exponentially worse at helping us discover what we don’t yet know we ought to know, those invaluable unknown-unknowns." Really? Has the author ever been to Hacker News, I wonder.

272 points by fbn79 4y ago

> What I call zazen is not developing concentration by stages and so on. It is simply the Awakened One's own easy and joyful practice, it is realized-practice within already manifest enlightenment. It is the display of complete reality. Traps and cages spring open. Grasping the heart of this, you are the dragon who has reached his waters, the tiger resting in her mountains. Understand that right here is the display of Vast Reality and then dullness and mental wandering have no place to arise. https://wwzc.org/dharma-text/fukanzazengi-how-everyone-can-sit https://wwzc.org/dharma-text/fukanzazengi-how-everyone-can-s... Returning to the joyful ease of a child, not putting distinctions and discriminations on play, or worrying about the next thing or even doing the current thing well, is what we train by sitting zazen in Zen Buddhism

tuxie_ 4y ago
> not putting distinctions and discriminations on play Honestly that stands out for me from your comment. What do you mean? It does not follow logically, at least for me, from the rest of the things you mention.
- bowsamic 4y ago
  Zazen is about sitting without making distinctions. If a good feeling arises, we treat it the same as a bad feeling, we just let it arise and pass without judging it. Same for distinguishing between self and other, etc. Zazen is a practise for learning how to cultivate a mind that does not attach to discriminations or distinctions between different mental or physical states or objects. We put distinctions on the world because we think it's necessary to be able to actually live here, but actually if you let go of distinctions you will find that life lives on as normal and you still somehow know what to do but in a much more liberated way. "Not putting distinctions and discriminations on play" means to play without making distinctions or discriminations, such as: "am I playing right?", "am I being too loud?", "is this a good use of my time?", "could I be doing something more productive?", etc. Most adults cannot play without attaching to those questions and being bothered by them. One way to learn to not attach to those questions is to practise zazen
  - Dudeman112 4y ago
    >We put distinctions on the world because we think it's necessary to be able to actually live here You'll find that living on the world without distinctions in some places will get you shot or eaten by wildlife. Which does make your life in the world a wee shorter, yes... Although at that point I guess someone truly enlightened wouldn't mind it
    - bowsamic 4y ago
      Have you tried it? If you did you will realise that actually it isn't our attachment to distinctions that propels us, but there is an automatic animal decision making process before we rationalise about it. We actually do this a lot but we just don't realise it, afterwards we think that our rational sense of "I" is in the driving seat but really it is a bit different. As I said, it's hard to believe that you could live a life like that, but I promise you that after dropping distinctions you will handle the person shouting at you or the bear attacking you far more effectively than you would if you were rationally deliberating over it. But you'll have to try it to believe me perhaps, I was surprised too. Part of the reason why enlightenment is a long and difficult process is because we are so convinced that we need to hold onto things to keep surviving. Some people are so shocked by the realisation that they even commit suicide, particularly if done in an unsafe setting without support.
      - Dudeman112 4y ago
        I don't think deliberate thoughts are the best tools for all circumstances. That's not my point Actually getting rid of distinctions requires an overwriting of the non-deliberate thought processes too. You won't "handle" the person shouting at you or the bear attacking you more effectively, you won't handle anything at all. You'll just be the cognitive equivalent of a rock, but in human flesh You seem to be using "distinctions" as a synonym for deliberate thought (I could be wrong, of course)
        bowsamic 4y ago
        Yes, by distinctions I mean rational deliberate ones that arise from attachments to ideas that we have about the world. For example the idea that I am me and you are you. We are attached to this idea and act in a non-optimal way due to it. Being before that mind is called "prajna" or wisdom in Buddhism, prajnaparamita being the "perfection of wisdom". I don't mean the distinctions made by our material condition such as hunger or flight and fight, I mean the reactions to those things. It is the Buddha's parable of the two arrows: the first arrow (pain) is unavoidable, however we also then take on an unecessary second arrow (negative emotional reaction to pain) that is totally avoidable. I'm talking about the second part. Letting go of our conscious attachment to distinctions and discriminations we can play like children again

walty8 4y ago

thanks, my son would love this :)

bigDinosaur 4y ago

Even better, do these things with someone else! You're always existentially alone, so no need to make practical life too lonesome either!

teh_klev 4y ago
> Even better, do these things with someone else Sure but that's missing the point of the book.
- smokey_circles 4y ago
  People are not meant to alone. If the book is advising to do things alone, I advise not reading the book
  - the_gipsy 4y ago
    Meant by who? You? God?
    - ano88888 4y ago
      evolution. It is in our DNA to be social. Most of us will die without social connections
      - cossatot 4y ago
        This book is about learning how to entertain yourself alone during your free time, not mandating that you only recreate alone, much less disconnecting yourself from society altogether.
      - DocTomoe 4y ago
        People without social connections die earlier statistically, but that can be explained by outside effects (e.g. if you do not live in a family structure, chances are you'll be found too late after suffering from a heart attack or stroke; less people around you means less immunisation for common diseases; no friends means a house fire may stress you out more and you becoming homeless ...). Calling that "most would be dying from no social connections" still seems a bit a far reach. Also, the "we need to be around people at all times" seems to be less determined by genes, but by culture: people in other cultures and at other times seem to have been fine with extended periods of no human contact. Think the 'forest dwellers' in Hindu culture, or monastic hermits.

sitkack 4y ago

The author has another equally wholesome book, "Where Did You Go? Out. What Did You Do? Nothing."

kashyapc 4y ago

Quoting from a past comment[1]. This is from the late Mihály Csíkszentmihályi (of "flow" fame): "The ultimate test for the ability to control the quality of experience is what a person does in solitude, with no external demands to give structure to attention. It is relatively easy to become involved with a job, to enjoy the company of friends, to be entertained in a theater or at a concert. But what happens when we are left to our own devices? Alone, when the dark night of the soul descends, are we forced into frantic attempts to distract the mind from its coming? Or are we able to take on activities that are not only enjoyable, but make the self grow?" [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28942369 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28942369

dinvlad 4y ago
Very profound, thanks for sharing!
danadannecy 4y ago
Would you recommend reading Flow if I've already engaged with the concept of flow itself outside of the book?
- hasbot 4y ago
  No. It's been decades since I read the book but the concept is simple and quickly in understood and doesn't need a book-length treatment. He doesn't give any guidance on how to achieve the flow state which is what I was looking for.
  - kashyapc 4y ago
    The topic certainly deserves a book-length treatment (it's only some 300 pages). He explores the idea with great rigour. I've read it 7 years ago, and just went through some of my Kindle notes. There's ample guidance. But the reader must put in some work to extract the value. If you're in a hurry, you won't get much out of it (or any book).
- kashyapc 4y ago

thyrox 4y ago

This post reminds me of the life of Christopher mccandless, the protagonist of into the wild. McCandless had happily escaped humanity his whole life, only to find that happiness itself can only be amplified when shared. One of his final quotes being: “Happiness only real when shared.”

Otek 4y ago
This is something many people overlook when they glorify this character
DIARRHEA_xd 4y ago
Let's pretend his passion was Nascar driving...
silicon2401 4y ago
I interpret that in the complete opposite way: he was a deeply unhappy person who didn't realize it until he really experienced being alone. I can be just as happy alone as when I'm with people so the sentiment certainly doesn't apply to some people
SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
I feel like describing him as a protagonist of book/movie misses that he was a real person.

WA 4y ago

I spend quite a lot of time alone by myself. I usually go for a walk or ride my bike. Going to the library is another way to fill your brain with other peoples’ ideas, just like scrolling social media. But I have to be honest: there are zero profound thoughts when I’m alone. I sometimes get ideas for what I could work on. Write this article or that, make a standup comedy show. Write some junk porn novel. It’s entertaining while it lasts and after a while, the thoughts are gone and having thought about them, the drive to implement them is gone, too. It’s literally like writing things on a TODO list and feeling good about having it written down, but the desire to do them is gone. So, since I don’t get profound motivation or breakthroughs or whatever, I treat time alone as some kind of mental garbage collector. At least I get to move my body. So, what’s the lesson here? I don’t know. Maybe that being alone to improve something is bullshit. Go out alone if it suits you, don’t expect profound thoughts. At least that’s how I am :) Edit: last paragraph

ffritz 4y ago
That sounds very normal, at least it’s the same for me. Sometimes I spent a considerable amount of time brainstorming an idea or concept over and over during alone times, and then at some point it won’t return to my thoughts again, but something new replaces it. Sort of like I am “done” with that thought and my brain wants to move on. I don’t know why that happens, but I guess I get stimulation simply from that iterative thought process. Thus your garbage collector comparison seems accurate to me. Secretly though, I do hope to get that business idea at some point via that process. Not sure if that’s ever going to happen, but that’s okay too.
ly3xqhl8g9 4y ago
i do not believe being alone is meant to be the source of profundity, but of serenity · it is much cheaper (energy/time) to obtain profundity from others, but serenity can only be obtained after acknowledging that whatever i call I is always already locked in some kind of inside and only by being alone i can regulate this inside in such a manner as to be(wel)come (the) serene => alone not to improve, but to survive
ratww 4y ago
I think the scope of what you think matters. For me it’s the same as you, but only with “big” ideas that will require a lot of effort to get off the ground. But I have been able to have a lot of great (to me) breakthroughs by focusing on smaller ideas: melodies or lyrics for a song, ideas for an algorithm or architecture for something I’m working on, perhaps planning a whole talk or presentation. I believe most of us who are developers do that at work already, so it’s not too hard to extend it to alone time or exercise time. On the other hand, I had the idea for a business I’m currently starting on one of those walks. So there’s exceptions.

nonrandomstring 4y ago

This article caught my wandering attention today during an intermittent fast. Normally I'd take a light exercise day to burn a bit more, but a minor injury is telling me to take it easy. Reading HN and tinkering with code isn't enough. Fasting makes me restless. I almost never get "bored", but this brings it on. I want to break the link between boredom and waves of hunger. How we manage solitude and how we manage hunger seem connected.

donkeyd 4y ago

A couple of years ago, I was going through a short stint of burn-out. I needed some time away, so I put a mattress in the back of my car and went to Germany for a few days. I loved the idea of not having to go anywhere and not having to discuss the next location with anyone. If I saw a place with a nice view around dinner time, I'd just stop there, warm up some food and eat, enjoying the view. Those couple of days were zen. I need to do this again some time, but for some reason when not burnt out, people are less accepting of this kind of thing.

hef19898 4y ago
Sounds like a great vacation! And never mind other peoples opinions, some even call what you did "Vanlife", I know it as camping. If you enjoy, just do it!
tinsmith 4y ago
There is something to be said for the recovery that comes with just experiencing a place in the world without any agenda or accountability beyond simply being a living being. I'm glad you got to experience that. i've achieved this maybe a handful of times in my life, and it seems significantly harder to do in the US than elsewhere.
mikepurvis 4y ago
I did a spiritual retreat a few months ago at a Jesuit centre, and I think it was a bit like this— just leaving my phone in my room and spending the entire day taking everything an hour at a time with no obligations or timelines or goals at all. Obviously the religious side of it isn't going to be for everyone, but absolutely the "hard break from the real world" side can be.

amelius 4y ago

"All human evil comes from a single cause, man's inability to sit still in a room." -- Blaise Pascal

makeitdouble 4y ago
Then our cultures will actively penalize people who can sit still and be happy doing nothing. “laziness” is a cardinal sin and “lack of ambition” a critical issue.
- goldfeld 4y ago
  However possibly he meant sit still usefully, otherwise why sit rather than lounge in an ottoman? sit still, that is, sustain study, or read literature, or have creative idylls, write, comtemplate the inner realms. Sounds to me like the quote is the classical ideal of useful employment, by which comparison much social interaction or being glued to a phone is judged as laziness or, anachronically, dissipation.
  - makeitdouble 4y ago
    The sitting part is actually not in the original quote (“Tout le malheur des hommes vient d’une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos dans une chambre”). It was just about staying at rest in a room. Note that “at rest” being specified, it really was about doing nothing. And sure, Blaise Pascal was extremely active, extremely prolific since his very early days, and he probably couldn’t stay still doing nothing for long.
    - saltcured 4y ago
      Yes, I always thought this was meant a bit tongue-in-cheek as a tautology: the sins (and wonders) of man stem from the compulsion to exercise ones agency.
      - rramadass 4y ago
        >the sins (and wonders) of man stem from the compulsion to exercise ones agency. Nice turn of phrase. Is it yours or are you quoting from someone else?

burnaway 4y ago

meta -- i'm just wondering if the OP found this blog post through the https://projectnaptha.com https://projectnaptha.com main page screenshot of the book. these two posts are side-by-side on HN now and it gave me the chills "what a coincidence" - perhaps not.

fbn79 4y ago
I confirm your suspect! =)

crispyambulance 4y ago

This is adjacent to the notion of a "Flâneur", someone who idly wanders a city with nothing in particular to do, but who engages with it intellectually and socially. It very much requires a high level of privledge or, in more rare cases (these days), the ability to survive in poverty looking like a homeless person yet still be interesting and welcomed by others. For Gen-X, this was also known as being a "slacker". It was good while it lasted.

ThalesX 4y ago
> This is adjacent to the notion of a "Flâneur", someone who idly wanders a city with nothing in particular to do, but who engages with it intellectually and socially. I've recently started watching Seinfeld again. Kramer seems like exactly this kind of character.
mgdlbp 4y ago
Just last week! Flânerie: The Art of Aimless Strolling - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32002486 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32002486 (125 comments)

dmje 4y ago

This highlights what bothers me most about today's [mobile] culture. There are reams of other things to say about the damage being done (I'd recommend Johann Hari's book Stolen Focus [0] for a great, if severely worrying, overview) - but to me the ability to spend time doing nothing, being with oneself, being alone, living with one's thoughts - this is a hugely important thing. Other people on the thread point out that "not much happens" when they spend time alone - to which I'd say: that's the point. Your brain needs time to process, to chew through, to formulate, to make sense of... all the things it has been spending time doing. So yeh, sometimes ideas happen in these spaces (ideas certainly don't happen where there's no space!), but sometimes nothing at all "happens". And...that's important. As well as that, the constant-always-filled-always-on culture created by mobile devices takes you away from the present moment. It's like the least mindful thing you can be doing, and given the quantities of evidence around happiness, flow, focus, etc - just being in the world is a critically important thing. The other angle is about the ego in all of this. One of the strange things that comes out of a meditation practice is that (and bear with me here, it sounds weird) - when you spend more time with yourself, focusing on what your inner voice is saying, without constant distraction, you actually become very much better at being empathetic in the world. Because you understand more about who you are (and, ultimately, who your "self" isn't...), you get to understand more about other people and who they are. I wouldn't be at all surprised if being good at being alone also boosted this sense of empathy for others. It sounds counter-intuitive, but I suspect it's true. [0] https://stolenfocusbook.com/ https://stolenfocusbook.com/

taffronaut 4y ago

I borrowed this book from a library at age 10 or so - 50 years ago. As a kid, when we went on holiday as a family the first thing we would do would be to visit the library at our destination and get 'visitor tickets'. I was an only child (still am) and was expected to amuse myself. The title is perfect for an only child. I read this book pretty much cover to cover one holiday and remember making darts out of sewing needles and matchsticks.

NoGravitas 4y ago

"Boredom is insight into the essentially void nature of our existence and the existence of all things" — Keiji Nishitani

memcg 4y ago

I am reminded of James Thurber's short story "The Secret Life of Walter Mitty." So much of my life has required just waiting, so daydreaming, people watching and hyper-focusing on my surroundings have become valuable skills. These skills allow me to "be there" for others. My mom had many surgeries and I would go to the hospital and just wait with my dad. We said little. He would read paperback fiction, a pastime he learned riding in carpools, but he was not alone.

personjerry 4y ago

I find that my computer is stealing all my time. My default is to sit in front of my computer. I'll write an email, jot a few notes. Inevitably I will open up a video or a game and distract myself. If I'm spending time with myself and I'm at home, I'm on my computer. I think it's a problem. I'm considering thinking about it some more and writing a blog post on it.

glouwbug 4y ago
Will you sit in front of your computer when you write your blog post?
- personjerry 4y ago
  Yeah. I mean that's the thing, sitting in front of the computer is a necessity because you need to type ideas. So your screen has to become a catalyst for your thoughts instead of being a distraction. You have to build an "environment" where you can "blog" or w/e you deem productive. I've been looking at https://kinopio.club/ https://kinopio.club/ to be my "default screen on computer start" for organizing thoughts, but it's not perfect.
  - nobodywasishere 4y ago
    You could use a notebook and handwrite things instead, that helps me.
  - ratrocket 4y ago
    This probably isn't what you're after, but you can blog via a pen & notebook with Paper website: https://daily.tinyprojects.dev/paper_website https://daily.tinyprojects.dev/paper_website (no affiliation and haven't used it, but I love the idea and that person's "tiny projects" are super cool!)

gernb 4y ago

Just at the start > now more than ever, it seems — have a profound civilizational anxiety about being alone. It seems to me the "natural" state of things is to NOT be alone. Did cavemen survive if they were alone? It use to be common for the majority of people in the world it live in single room houses. I'd think the "natural = better" crowd would be very much of the thought that being alone is a symptom of modern society. I'm not personally saying that being alone is bad. Only that the framing seems to be that not having alone time is bad and that seems like a strange framing to me if for most of our existance we were rarely alone. Also, I notice almost none of the comments are about the "Do nothing" part. They're all about "do something with nobody all alone by yourself", not "do *nothing* with nobody all alone by yourself"

fleddr 4y ago
You're right. Being alone and the very idea of privacy is a modern "luxury". It did not exist as hunter gatherers nor in the "african village" model. In some cultures, it still doesn't exist, think a multi generational home where rooms are shared with many people. I think indeed the emphasis should be on the "do nothing" part. Which very much is natural. I've once read that hunter gatherers "worked" for about 4 hours per day. As for the rest of the day? Rest, watch the sun set, gaze at the stars. Many animals also do fuck all for a considerable part of the day.
naasking 4y ago
There is no such thing as a natural state. At all stages of human development you'll find loners who lived off by themselves in the woods, like shaman or trappers, and others who formed towns and tribes. As for the "do nothing" part, you'll find plenty of people here who meditate regularly. That's the pinnacle of doing nothing, all alone by yourself.

ianferrel 4y ago

I read this book as a child in the 1990s. I think I picked it up at a garage sale, along with another of his books "Where did you go?" Out "What did you do?" Nothing", an entertaining memoir of his youth and all the nonsense he got up to with the other kids. Highly recommended by 12-year-old me.

ribs 4y ago

"[The Internet] also grows exponentially worse at helping us discover what we don’t yet know we ought to know, those invaluable unknown-unknowns." Really? Has the author ever been to Hacker News, I wonder.