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Lenovo shipping new laptops that only boot Windows by default

mohitgangrade 4y ago
I have a Lenovo laptop I bought 2 years ago. I tried installing Ubuntu on it and it was a nightmare. I am pretty sure Lenovo made this laptop so any OS other than Windows will not work well. I had Ubuntu on dual boot for about 4 months. And I had to fuck with the BIOS at least a dozen times a week because something or other would stop working. Never happened to me on any other laptop I have owned. Windows is a nightmare for me as a web developer. Ubuntu seems much easier to me and more intuitive somehow. Maybe I'll get an M1 Macbook or build a PC finally... :)
iepathos 4y ago
Whelp never buying lenovo again
- RGamma 4y ago
  Once there's a trackpoint for the frame.work there's also no reason to ;)
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
peanut_worm 4y ago
Will absolutely never buy a product from Lenovo ever again
- inferiorhuman 4y ago
  Really? Even after they were caught bundling Windows spyware on three separate occasions? Even after they used the BIOS/EFI to forcibly reinstall said spyware? Even after Lenovo was caught using Uyghur forced labor? Nobody's perfect, and IBM has plenty to answer for, but Lenovo's been doing shady shit for years.
caramelcustard 4y ago
What's more peculiar is that the laptop in question belongs to the Thinkpad lineup. Before reading the article, i expected it to be an Ideapad.
- anothernewdude 4y ago
  There's not really a difference between them anymore.
throwaway0x7E6 4y ago
we're only a few decades away from this being the new normal
- bilegeek 4y ago
  Decades plural? Maybe one at most.
herbst 4y ago
I hope this is an mistake that will not happen again. Not sure what to use but ThinkPads
JonChesterfield 4y ago
ThinkPad too, so not the budget line. So... guess Lenovo don't sell to me anymore. Dell's latitude are similar but were Intel-only last time I looked. Anyone know the obvious replacement offhand? Ryzen + runs Linux. edit: article says 'default' a lot, are we talking flash new firmware to get something working or changing a setting like secure boot = off, as they're not really comparable.
- darthrupert 4y ago
  I'm using Asus Zephyrus G14. Seems like a solid machine and works on Linux pretty well. Perfectly, if you exchange the wifi card and patch acpi.
- nicolaslem 4y ago
  I have my eyes on the HP EliteBook 845 G9. Ryzen 6000, two user upgradable DDR5 slots (albeit not LPDDR5), 2280 M.2 PCIe 4.0. They are not available yet, but my SO has a 840 G8 (Intel 11th) and it's a very decent machine.
- AnssiH 4y ago
  > edit: article says 'default' a lot, are we talking flash new firmware to get something working or changing a setting like secure boot = off, as they're not really comparable. The latter, you need to change a setting.
mrsaint 4y ago
"By default" means it's just a switch in the Bios to fix this issue? If yes, not a big deal, is it?
- hericium 4y ago
  For now. And BIOS can be updated.
  - bilegeek 4y ago
    But does the option in question enable third party certificates, or disable UEFI entirely?
    - int_19h 4y ago
      There's a separate option for each.
- bayindirh 4y ago
  It may come with many secrets baked into the security processor already, like your Windows license, or you may have used your computer for some time, and stored some secrets with keys stored in the processor. You'll lose these secrets and keys, forever. They may be private keys, decryption tokens and more. You may not be able to regenerate them and get everything back. Edit: Windows (license) keys are not in the TPM apparently, my bad, sorry. Keeping the above text for context correctness.
  - Avamander 4y ago
    Nope, Windows keys are not in the TPM. Only BitLocker uses it in any common scenario and that you can disable before changing UEFI settings (or enter a recovery key), you can also use BL without a TPM.
  - LeoPanthera 4y ago
    You've posted this claim repeatedly but I don't think it's true. The Windows keys are not in the TPM.
disinterred 4y ago
disgusting
noisy_boy 4y ago
Its like they live in a bubble and have no idea that many developers choose Thinkpads not only because of build quality/keyboard but also because those work well with Linux. Framework[0] is looking more and more attractive as my next machine. [0]: https://frame.work/ https://frame.work/
- JonChesterfield 4y ago
  Still seems to be intel only
  - noisy_boy 4y ago
    Considering Framework seem to be in tune with general developer sentiment, I'm hoping they spot the interest in AMD/Ryzen platform and expand their product line. Hopefully it is just a supply chain problem that is eventually solved.
    - feet 4y ago
      More like I bet there are engineers who care but marketing and bean counters decided these anti consumer things. Its a corporation like any other
      - caramelcustard 4y ago
        No way, i thought laptop manufacturers were running a charity! "...these anti consumer things." except AFAIK it's because of Thunderbolt and docking. Yes, USB 4 is a thing, but it has some differences.
    - dcow 4y ago
      While I share your optimism I doubt it’s just a supply chain issue. It’s entirely different board design, different thermal requirements, power draw, chipset, etc. Browse their community site for more context.. plenty of discussion on the topic.
      - 4y ago
alpaca128 4y ago
> the firmware defaults to not trusting bootloaders or drivers signed with the Microsoft 3rd Party UEFI CA key So they don't trust software signed by Microsoft, but they trust an OS made by Microsoft?
- indrora 4y ago
  The 3rd party UEFI CA is a compromise in Secure Boot. MSFT runs the CA but they don't sign binaries, just issue certificates to anyone who asks nicely. Fedora, Ubuntu, and rEFInd were some of the first to get their own certs. So it's more "They don't trust who microsoft trusts"
  - mjg59 4y ago
    Microsoft absolutely still sign the binaries, and do not issue certs. Everything signed with the 3rd Party UEFI CA was signed by Microsoft, not any third party.
alangibson 4y ago
Everyone should buy one then immediately return it based on not booting Linux. Maybe putting a KPI into the red will get their attention.
- danuker 4y ago
  I would definitely return something I can't run Linux on. Then there's stuff like this: https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/692552/no-linux-will-boot-after-bios-update https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/692552/no-linux-wil... Which is why I never upgrade BIOS.
- 202206241203 4y ago
  The board will be like: "Let's invest money into that 1% of customers who like to refund purchases!".
codefeenix 4y ago
Never been any issue with Lenovo before 2022. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10039870 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10039870
- sascha_sl 4y ago
  To be fair, Microsoft are the ones that made this "rootkit feature", Lenovo just used it. Modern Windows instead delivers OEM payloads of various qualities over Windows Update.
  - formerly_proven 4y ago
    Windows Update is a delivery platform not just for OEM software, but also for component manufacturer software on self-built machines. Naturally, some of that software is shady as fuck.
    - sascha_sl 4y ago
      Correct. It also doesn't seem too hard to fraudulently claim a device ID that nobody else has claimed.
mjpa86 4y ago
According to https://download.lenovo.com/pccbbs/mobiles_pdf/Enable_Secure_Boot_for_Linux_Secured-core_PCs.pdf https://download.lenovo.com/pccbbs/mobiles_pdf/Enable_Secure... - it's a Microsoft requirement that it's disabled by default, so presumably Lenovo won't be the last to do this?
- Avamander 4y ago
  Wrong document. Secure Boot itself has nothing to do with it. This is a Secured Core / Device Guard requirement, different things and still optional.
  - 2000UltraDeluxe 4y ago
    From the article: > Trying to boot Linux from a USB stick failed out of the box for no obvious reason, but after further examination the cause became clear - the firmware defaults to not trusting bootloaders or drivers signed with the Microsoft 3rd Party UEFI CA key. Isn't that precisely what the GP linked to? If it's just a matter of changing a BIOS switch then this is a non-issue imo.
    - Avamander 4y ago
      Well no, you can keep Secure Boot enabled (which you should) and disable SG/DG and be able to boot or install Linux.
      - bilegeek 4y ago
        That's a relief. Without UEFI, the boot drive is limited to 2.2TB, hampering upgrades.
      - 2000UltraDeluxe 4y ago
        The PDF linked to further up this thread describes the process of trusting the 3rd party Microsoft CA that the original article mentions has been distrusted.
    - 4y ago
bayindirh 4y ago
While it's a bit tangential, why I feel like attacks on Linux as an end-user OS deployed to bare metal has increased lately? Linux is way too big to attack on servers today, but why WSL + this shenanigans feel so aligned? Please feel free to counter. I'm not trying to start a fight here.
- meowkit 4y ago
  Its not an attack. Its more likely they don't want to use man hours to support certain scenarios. WSL is part of Microsoft's internal push to embrace open source. Its feature development. Source: I work on the windows kernel and have met people who work/ed on WSL.
  - ungamedplayer 4y ago
    It definitely isn't an 'attack', they just simply have not enabled the correct keys. I strongly doubt that lenovo consider any tiny amount of Linux users in any support scenario. Source: I work on the Linux kernel and met people who work on Linux kernel.
  - bayindirh 4y ago
    Hey, thanks for the reply. I have an honest question: How Microsoft is planning to restore trust in open source / free software circles? We have seen pretty horrific things back in the day, and some of us can't trust you, even if we want, and some moves still relight this fire instantly. I want a more friendlier computing environment overall, regardless of the OS we use, and want to be able to interop with other OSes on many levels (protocols, hardware, developers of said OS). Does Microsoft has a plan for this? Because Opening VSCode and slowly putting into proprietary domain & using GPL code in Copilot doesn't inspire trust, to be honest.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - oblio 4y ago
      Do you want the honest answer from someone else in the community? They're not planning to, not really. FAANG + MS are so big that at this point they stopped caring about Open Source and Free Software. The licenses are intentionally permissive that every tool can be used internally if they need it (Linux, bash, etc) plus even more permissive licenses like MIT can be used in commercial products. With web services even GPL can be used in their commercial cloud services. They control a huge chunk of Open Source anyway through their contributors. Plus the level they compete at is so far from Open Source that Open Source basically doesn't matter. It's all services and clouds now. Open Source had its moment circa 2005, now it's just asphalt. Yeah, we use it everyday, but nobody writes home about it. And regular users don't care.
mikojan 4y ago
My last three notebooks have been Lenovo Thinkpads. I am never buying a Lenovo product again.
smngi20 4y ago
lenovo also hides s3 support so it makes it impossible to install anything other than windows and sleep/wake reliably. Never buying lenovos again.
- Avamander 4y ago
  What? I literally had to disable Linux compatibility in Lenovo BIOS' to get deep sleep on Linux working. It's not hidden?
- mjg59 4y ago
  There's a meaningful distinction between "Linux doesn't support certain firmware functionality well" (as is still, sadly, the case for s0ix) and "Linux is literally unable to boot unless firmware configuration is modified", which is the case here
shaicoleman 4y ago
According to the spec sheet, Lenovo officially supports Linux on this model, at least for some SKUs. https://psref.lenovo.com/Product/ThinkPad_Z13_Gen_1?tab=spec https://psref.lenovo.com/Product/ThinkPad_Z13_Gen_1?tab=spec
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- Avamander 4y ago
  Yep, the person probably just has to disable Device Guard. The UI even warns about not being able to use other OSs when it's enabled.
throwaway553893 4y ago
HN: It's only okay when Google/Apple do it.
- Karellen 4y ago
  Yeah, I think Microsoft should get some slack here for selling Microsoft hardware that only runs Microsoft software. If people want a general purpose PC that runs OSs other than Microsoft's, they should buy their hardware from a 3rd-party company that isn't Microsoft, who explicitly make a point of supporting other OSs. /s
coffeebeanHH 4y ago
Well, then let's just buy the good 'ol thinkpads and let lenovo go to hell. If they're good they reconsider that decision otherwise have to face the consequences.
- bayindirh 4y ago
  Unfortunately Linux folks is a way too small market to influence these big corporations. We have to find better ways than "vote with your wallet", because our wallet is not even a blip.
  - danuker 4y ago
    Lenovo's profit margin (net income / revenue) is about 3%. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenovo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenovo Here it says 2.43% of desktop (non-mobile/tablet) OSes are Linux. https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/worldwide https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/worldwide This makes a dent. You sponsor a company that SUPPORTS dual-booting instead of one that doesn't. That has double the effect of the price of your laptop: one company loses a sale, the other gains one.
  - Majestic121 4y ago
    While it is true for the general market, I think for Lenovo specifically the proportion of user buying at least Thinkpads because they're known good dev machines would push for a much higher proportion of Linux users. Completely out of my hat but I would not be surprised if a good 20%/30% of Thinkpad users are Linux users. Hard to confirm/infirm though.
- mindcrime 4y ago
  There are very highly placed people at Lenovo (possibly as high as the CEO, but if not, only one or two notches down the org chart) who hate the amount of leverage Microsoft has over them due to the windows hegemony. And those people would love nothing more than to establish Linux as a replacement for Windows and kick MS in the teeth. But. Lenovo are between a rock and a hard place. Because today, whether they like it or not, Microsoft does have that leverage. And if Lenovo come out too forcefully in support of Linux (desktop Linux in particular), they risk having Microsoft screw them over. So as much as they might like to start shipping every laptop with Linux pre-installed tomorrow, they really can't. So they have to be selective and strategic about how much they push in that direction. Source: was a Lenovo employee for a while up through 2019. Little was said about this internally through official channels, but it was all well known. I won't say any more or go into any more detail to avoid the risk of violating some NDA or something that might technically still be in effect or whatever.
Stratoscope 4y ago
> "by default" Hit Enter or F1 at the red Lenovo boot screen, go into the BIOS settings and find the setting and change it. Until someone confirms that there is no such BIOS setting, there is no story here.
- bayindirh 4y ago
  And invalidate everything in your security processor, which will possibly brick your windows installation and nuke your files if you had bitlocker keys inside that security processor. One weird trick to ruin your day, surely. Edit: Looks like Windows has changed since I left it, please disregard this comment, thank you. The comment is left intact for context correctness.
  - danuker 4y ago
    Wow! So, no more dual-booting?
    - Avamander 4y ago
      Well, it depends on if your dual boot changes any of the measurements Bitlocker uses. You don't have to use TPM-backed BL if you don't want to.
  - tinus_hn 4y ago
    You can’t be storing irreplaceable keys in the TPM chip, they fail all the time. Either you don’t really need the files on the disk or you need backup keys. And note, you can’t even turn on Bitlocker without being forced to save those backup keys.
    - bayindirh 4y ago
      Does bitlocker give a copy of your keys to you while encrypting your drive? Asking because I'm not a Windows user.
      - 4y ago
neverrroot 4y ago
At the begging slowly creeping in, then all of a sudden. This can’t be just a mistake, this is likely purposely pushing the borders.
hericium 4y ago
Microsoft's hostility towards open source never ended. They "heart" it only when making money off it.
- rand49an 4y ago
  Wasn't this a decision made by Lenovo in this case?
  - altfredd 4y ago
    Lenovo and other laptop manufacturers don't really make such decisions. They do whatever Microsoft tells them to do, because the alternative is being forced to pay extra $200 per laptop sold.
intsunny 4y ago
This might be terrible news. Some of us Linux fans have been waiting for new Lenovo laptops featuring the next gen of AMD chips because they ship with RNDA2 GPUs. RDNA2 is the most powerful open source friendly GPU out there. This has been a long time coming for us Linux fans.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
kouteiheika 4y ago
Well, I knew right from the start when secure boot was first introduced that this is going to happen sooner or later. This is a slippery slope, and I'm sure eventually we'll have computers which will make this not only the default, but also the only way to boot. The war on general-purpose computing is well underway, and I fear we'll lose it. The billions of already completely locked down computers (e.g. every iOS device) does prove that people just don't care, and many (including people here!) will even defend it that they prefer it that way. Eventually we won't have a choice.
- pmoriarty 4y ago
  This is why we need more open hardware.
  - bigpeopleareold 4y ago
    And I sense there will always be a market for it regardless of what large companies who want the widest reach possible (But I am still waiting patiently for the open laptop + trackpoint-on-keyboard combo :) )
  - Hackbraten 4y ago
    And there’s only one way to get there: vote with our wallets. Let’s buy the libre hardware that’s available, even if it degrades our experience.
- rightbyte 4y ago
  Redhat (or Canonical?) had some almost smug FAQ post where they ridiculed the notion that secure boot is a "MS conspiracy" versus Linux. We will see how that turns out ...
  - amelius 4y ago
    Apple does the same thing with iOS. So far the company with the best lock down seems to be winning.
- fartcannon 4y ago
bubblethink 4y ago
Current linux laptop landscape: Thinkpads (T): Decent keyboards, fwupd. Everything else is mediocre to poor. Dell Precision: About the same as thinkpads. S76, Starlabs: coreboot, upgradable. Mediocre screen, keyboard, trackpad, audio etc. Framework: Not enough to differentiate for the price premium. I have mostly given up on this. If macbooks get gpu linux drivers, I am willing to jump ship.
- 369548684892826 4y ago
  When my x230 finally gives up I’m thinking Pinebook Pro looks pretty good.
  - bencollier49 4y ago
    I bought a Pinebook which was bricked almost instantly by a child gently tripping over a lead. The build quality was terrible, it wouldn't have happened with any other laptop I've owned in the last 15 years.
    - bencollier49 4y ago
      I should qualify this by saying that it happened on the day I first got the device. I was really excited to receive it, and it did everything hoped it would, but a gentle pull to the side on the power lead was enough to break internal components such that repair was out of the question, which is a real shame. This was one of the cheap 11" laptops, the bigger ones are probably better.
  - hoppyhoppy2 4y ago
    Just be aware that the PBP's performance would be a noticeable downgrade from your X230. Its Geekbench 5 multi-core score is about half of the X230's.
    - 369548684892826 4y ago
      That's disappointing to hear!
foverzar 4y ago
So, what exactly is the news here? This seems to have been a default for years now, hasn't it? Disabling UEFI Secure Boot has been step 1 for installing Linux for as long as UEFI had existed, hasn't it? What exactly is the problem here? I remember doing the same when installing Ubuntu on an ASUS laptop like 10 years ago. The linked article is dumb, doesn't have any technical details, but has a stupid sensational headline.
- mjg59 4y ago
  > Disabling UEFI Secure Boot has been step 1 for installing Linux for as long as UEFI had existed, hasn't it? Many people did a lot of work to ensure that Linux could be installed on systems with UEFI Secure Boot enabled.
  - sam_lowry_ 4y ago
    Does it apply to RedHat, Ubuntu, SUSE and the likes only? I wonder if as an Arch Linux user I can boot with Secure Boot enabled.
    - pabs3 4y ago
      Looks like you can't: "Note: The official installation image does not support Secure Boot (FS#53864). To successfully boot the installation medium you will need to disable Secure Boot." https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Unified_Extensible_Firmware_Interface/Secure_Boot https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Unified_Extensible_Firmware... https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/53864 https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/53864
      - Arnavion 4y ago
        If you're using Arch you're probably willing to set up SB with your own keys. (Heck, I use my own keys on OpenSUSE even though my distro signs the kernel, because I want to use systemd-boot instead of mokutil since the latter is broken on my motherboard.)
      - Foxboron 4y ago
notrealyme123 4y ago
In my opinion, this news is exaggerated. The 3rd party UEFI CA key is implemented by the Shim, which is an attack vector. To be certified by default for the shim, the workflow is a github issue [0]. This is not necessarily bad, but a vector for social-engineering and more. If an attacker is signed by the shim, he can execute trusted code on most machines without problems. IMO it is better to leave this choice to the user to take this risk and enable the shim. Who installs linux should make this choice consciously [0]: https://github.com/rhboot/shim-review https://github.com/rhboot/shim-review
- mjg59 4y ago
  Booting via Shim will result in different PCR 7 values, which mean you can ensure that the OS won't boot if an attacker has subverted a signed version of Shim to execute Windows rather than the expected OS.
maverick74 4y ago
Doesn't mean a thing to me. I was never interested in their machines and even if i would ever be, this puts things very simple: Lenovo is a no-go! If they don't care about user's freedom of choice and wants to lock them into that M$ thing, then i'll simply won't care about them either!
- 2143 4y ago
  What machine do you use?
Eavolution 4y ago
My Acer laptop has something similar, I tried to dual boot windows (preinstalled) and debian, debian couldnt see the hard drive no matter what I did. I'm assuming somehow Acer made it so the drive is only visable to windows
Dorothy014 4y ago
[dead]
mkl95 4y ago
Most Linux users are savvy enough to tinker with the BIOS for a couple of minutes and get rid of this thing. All this feature does is feed some MS / Lenovo exec power fantasy.
- PossiblyKyle 4y ago
  Which retains the high barrier of entry to Linux. Linux will never be mainstream as long as itself and the community primarily embrace tech savvies and nobody else
  - mkl95 4y ago
    It may be a business opportunity. Order a bunch of Linux-unfriendly Lenovos, install Linux distro of choice, sell for a few <insert currency here> more.
juhon 4y ago
juhonii 4y ago
bitwize 4y ago
In which mjg finds out this was the plan all along, only now when the parade floats have stopped dead in their tracks and opened up to reveal the tanks inside: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5u1u5IuLec&t=1m10s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5u1u5IuLec&t=1m10s
10x-dev 4y ago
I bought one of these laptops. It came with Windows 11. I followed the steps on Ubuntu website to flash a USB drive and the laptop didn't boot from it, despite selecting to boot from USB. After disabling Secure Boot from BIOS, I was able to install Ubuntu. Windows continued to work just fine. iirc whatever cert grub was using has been blacklisted by Lenovo because of some recent security issue in grub (I can't find the details right now). Whatever your stance on Secure Boot, this increases friction and raises the tech bar for people to install other OSes. I imagine that even a "power" user wanting to try Linux would be very confused and would probably give up after not being able to boot from USB.
- megous 4y ago
  Was there no user friendly error message?
  - 10x-dev 4y ago
    Nope, an error quickly flashed on the screen (something like "Error 22", no real info) before the laptop proceeded to boot Windows.
peter_retief 4y ago
Sometimes I feel that Microsoft thinks it owns the hardware and is doing me, the customer, a favour letting me install my operating system of choice.
- oaiey 4y ago
  True. But I think that is not a grab move but more a situation where they are competing with Apple on the security front (which for end users is a huge sales argument). And that competition with Apple and battle against hackers goes top-down everywhere.
criley2 4y ago
Imagine if Apple laptops could only boot OSX by default
iostream25 4y ago
When will OEM's realize that forcing Windows on computer purchasers is less than ideal? I don't mean to merely refer to this particular issue/non-issue. I refer to the entire industry pre-loading Microsoft Windows on every new computer as IF this were the desire of everyone in the world. I'm not suggesting that there isn't a market for Windows, I'm suggesting that an industry-wide forced-Windows-ONLY world is bad for the market, bad for consumers, and probably bad for OEMs... If it's some shady Microsoft OEM contract FORCING this to be the case, let's see an example. Didn't anyone challenge it? Why don't Dell or Lenovo sell 10-20% Linux laptop preloads? Surely one can understand that developers and plenty of other users require Linux not Windows, right? Why are Linux preloads expensive and odd? Why are more OEMs not ALSO selling Linux preloads? So annoying!
- jabbany 4y ago
  A lot of these large volume OEMs depend on extra revenue from the Windows bloatware that they preload (antivirus, games, social apps etc.)... Usually they get a kickback based on volume sold. This stuff largely doesn't exist for Linux, so they're missing out on this profit for any Linux preloads. It's also why you see Linux preloads mostly done by more boutique PC builders -- they've already charged a reasonable premium on the build.
- nitrixion 4y ago
  Both Dell and Lenovo sell Linux Laptop preloads. I think you may be overestimating the market for such devices. As an anecdote, every developer that I know and I personally use Windows or Mac laptops and desktops. 1 guy in the group has a linux setup, but primarily uses Windows or Mac. While most of us have installed Linux on a device at some point, none of us use it as our daily driver. I'm talking about a network of roughly 100 devs that worked together or are a friend of a friend that chat on Slack daily. Yes, it is a small sample size, but it is relatively representative of what I've seen from devs at all of my previous companies over a 14 year software dev/engineering career.
- em-bee 4y ago
  it's time for law-makers to step in and force OEM's to have both systems preinstalled, with a choice at boot, like the EU did for browsers. linux doesn't even need more than a few GB of space so with todays disks the space is negligible.
lizardactivist 4y ago
Lots of kerfuffle over nothing, and of course the most noise comes from the peculiar regulars, chanting about how Lenovo has to go away, or is not to be trusted etc. The machine supports Linux. You may have to hop into the firmware settings first.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
djbusby 4y ago
Just got a Yoga6. Had to go into BIOS and disable secure boot. Then F12 on boot to choose my SysResc USB, boot that. Add syslinux to existing EFI partition. Install Gentoo. Rsync /home from the old machine. But it did take some fiddling with efibootmgr to fully purge the Windows shit. MS still gets paid for the license, even when it's not used.
kchoudhu 4y ago
Oh, Lenovo is shipping laptops? The cancellation of the last three orders I attempted to place with them left me under the impression that they weren't shipping them anymore...
WheatM 4y ago
ChildOfChaos 4y ago
I mean who cares? 99.9999999% of people will want Windows, if you are going to run a obscure OS then you would choose a machine that runs that best, so just don't buy one of these. It's not up to hardware OEM's to support or even allow you to install some weird OS.
- habitue 4y ago
  This attitude is kind of the ios-flavored "computers are appliances I license from the manufacturer at their pleasure" not "computers are general purpose devices I purchase and can then do what I want with"
  - ChildOfChaos 4y ago
    Well as long as you know what you are buying when you buy it that is your choice. You can't do whatever you want with most things that you buy and most consumers do not care like most hacker news readers do, people just want something that does the task they bought it for and don't need to tinker with it. Most people buying a laptop don't really think of the OS is running, they just expect it to be Windows and assume that it is part of computer itself.
kaliszad 4y ago
Do the USB 4 ports actually work as Thunderbolt 3 too? I know the post is about the Z-series. Perhaps somebody already knows... It seems the AMD-based T14 Gen3 Thinkpads actually don't support Thunderbolt. Some people speculated, it is a firmware matter on AMDs side and will be added in the future but that doesn't sound reassuring at all to me. On the product pictures, you can clearly see the Thunderbolt lightning logos besides the USB-C ports but that doesn't mean anything.
lazerl0rd 4y ago
This isn't going to be just Lenovo. Microsoft requires that the certificate in question is not part of the Secure Boot database for any device meeting/utilising the "Device Guard" functionality. And as others have said, as long as you can enroll your own keys this isn't really a bad thing. It improves security by default for the default OS shipped with the device. You have to go away from the defaults to use Linux anyways, so one more toggle isn't going to kill anyone.

I have a Lenovo laptop I bought 2 years ago. I tried installing Ubuntu on it and it was a nightmare. I am pretty sure Lenovo made this laptop so any OS other than Windows will not work well. I had Ubuntu on dual boot for about 4 months. And I had to fuck with the BIOS at least a dozen times a week because something or other would stop working. Never happened to me on any other laptop I have owned. Windows is a nightmare for me as a web developer. Ubuntu seems much easier to me and more intuitive somehow. Maybe I'll get an M1 Macbook or build a PC finally... :)

iepathos 4y ago

Whelp never buying lenovo again

RGamma 4y ago
Once there's a trackpoint for the frame.work there's also no reason to ;)
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

peanut_worm 4y ago

Will absolutely never buy a product from Lenovo ever again

inferiorhuman 4y ago
Really? Even after they were caught bundling Windows spyware on three separate occasions? Even after they used the BIOS/EFI to forcibly reinstall said spyware? Even after Lenovo was caught using Uyghur forced labor? Nobody's perfect, and IBM has plenty to answer for, but Lenovo's been doing shady shit for years.

caramelcustard 4y ago

What's more peculiar is that the laptop in question belongs to the Thinkpad lineup. Before reading the article, i expected it to be an Ideapad.

anothernewdude 4y ago
There's not really a difference between them anymore.

throwaway0x7E6 4y ago

we're only a few decades away from this being the new normal

bilegeek 4y ago
Decades plural? Maybe one at most.

herbst 4y ago

I hope this is an mistake that will not happen again. Not sure what to use but ThinkPads

JonChesterfield 4y ago

ThinkPad too, so not the budget line. So... guess Lenovo don't sell to me anymore. Dell's latitude are similar but were Intel-only last time I looked. Anyone know the obvious replacement offhand? Ryzen + runs Linux. edit: article says 'default' a lot, are we talking flash new firmware to get something working or changing a setting like secure boot = off, as they're not really comparable.

darthrupert 4y ago
I'm using Asus Zephyrus G14. Seems like a solid machine and works on Linux pretty well. Perfectly, if you exchange the wifi card and patch acpi.
nicolaslem 4y ago
I have my eyes on the HP EliteBook 845 G9. Ryzen 6000, two user upgradable DDR5 slots (albeit not LPDDR5), 2280 M.2 PCIe 4.0. They are not available yet, but my SO has a 840 G8 (Intel 11th) and it's a very decent machine.
AnssiH 4y ago
> edit: article says 'default' a lot, are we talking flash new firmware to get something working or changing a setting like secure boot = off, as they're not really comparable. The latter, you need to change a setting.

mrsaint 4y ago

"By default" means it's just a switch in the Bios to fix this issue? If yes, not a big deal, is it?

hericium 4y ago
For now. And BIOS can be updated.
- bilegeek 4y ago
  But does the option in question enable third party certificates, or disable UEFI entirely?
  - int_19h 4y ago
    There's a separate option for each.
bayindirh 4y ago
It may come with many secrets baked into the security processor already, like your Windows license, or you may have used your computer for some time, and stored some secrets with keys stored in the processor. You'll lose these secrets and keys, forever. They may be private keys, decryption tokens and more. You may not be able to regenerate them and get everything back. Edit: Windows (license) keys are not in the TPM apparently, my bad, sorry. Keeping the above text for context correctness.
- Avamander 4y ago
  Nope, Windows keys are not in the TPM. Only BitLocker uses it in any common scenario and that you can disable before changing UEFI settings (or enter a recovery key), you can also use BL without a TPM.
- LeoPanthera 4y ago
  You've posted this claim repeatedly but I don't think it's true. The Windows keys are not in the TPM.

disinterred 4y ago

disgusting

noisy_boy 4y ago

Its like they live in a bubble and have no idea that many developers choose Thinkpads not only because of build quality/keyboard but also because those work well with Linux. Framework[0] is looking more and more attractive as my next machine. [0]: https://frame.work/ https://frame.work/

JonChesterfield 4y ago
Still seems to be intel only
- noisy_boy 4y ago
  Considering Framework seem to be in tune with general developer sentiment, I'm hoping they spot the interest in AMD/Ryzen platform and expand their product line. Hopefully it is just a supply chain problem that is eventually solved.
  - feet 4y ago
    More like I bet there are engineers who care but marketing and bean counters decided these anti consumer things. Its a corporation like any other
    - caramelcustard 4y ago
      No way, i thought laptop manufacturers were running a charity! "...these anti consumer things." except AFAIK it's because of Thunderbolt and docking. Yes, USB 4 is a thing, but it has some differences.
  - dcow 4y ago
    While I share your optimism I doubt it’s just a supply chain issue. It’s entirely different board design, different thermal requirements, power draw, chipset, etc. Browse their community site for more context.. plenty of discussion on the topic.
    - 4y ago

alpaca128 4y ago

> the firmware defaults to not trusting bootloaders or drivers signed with the Microsoft 3rd Party UEFI CA key So they don't trust software signed by Microsoft, but they trust an OS made by Microsoft?

indrora 4y ago
The 3rd party UEFI CA is a compromise in Secure Boot. MSFT runs the CA but they don't sign binaries, just issue certificates to anyone who asks nicely. Fedora, Ubuntu, and rEFInd were some of the first to get their own certs. So it's more "They don't trust who microsoft trusts"
- mjg59 4y ago
  Microsoft absolutely still sign the binaries, and do not issue certs. Everything signed with the 3rd Party UEFI CA was signed by Microsoft, not any third party.

alangibson 4y ago

Everyone should buy one then immediately return it based on not booting Linux. Maybe putting a KPI into the red will get their attention.

danuker 4y ago
I would definitely return something I can't run Linux on. Then there's stuff like this: https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/692552/no-linux-will-boot-after-bios-update https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/692552/no-linux-wil... Which is why I never upgrade BIOS.
202206241203 4y ago
The board will be like: "Let's invest money into that 1% of customers who like to refund purchases!".

codefeenix 4y ago

Never been any issue with Lenovo before 2022. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10039870 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10039870

sascha_sl 4y ago
To be fair, Microsoft are the ones that made this "rootkit feature", Lenovo just used it. Modern Windows instead delivers OEM payloads of various qualities over Windows Update.
- formerly_proven 4y ago
  Windows Update is a delivery platform not just for OEM software, but also for component manufacturer software on self-built machines. Naturally, some of that software is shady as fuck.
  - sascha_sl 4y ago
    Correct. It also doesn't seem too hard to fraudulently claim a device ID that nobody else has claimed.

mjpa86 4y ago

According to https://download.lenovo.com/pccbbs/mobiles_pdf/Enable_Secure_Boot_for_Linux_Secured-core_PCs.pdf https://download.lenovo.com/pccbbs/mobiles_pdf/Enable_Secure... - it's a Microsoft requirement that it's disabled by default, so presumably Lenovo won't be the last to do this?

Avamander 4y ago
Wrong document. Secure Boot itself has nothing to do with it. This is a Secured Core / Device Guard requirement, different things and still optional.
- 2000UltraDeluxe 4y ago
  From the article: > Trying to boot Linux from a USB stick failed out of the box for no obvious reason, but after further examination the cause became clear - the firmware defaults to not trusting bootloaders or drivers signed with the Microsoft 3rd Party UEFI CA key. Isn't that precisely what the GP linked to? If it's just a matter of changing a BIOS switch then this is a non-issue imo.
  - Avamander 4y ago
    Well no, you can keep Secure Boot enabled (which you should) and disable SG/DG and be able to boot or install Linux.
    - bilegeek 4y ago
      That's a relief. Without UEFI, the boot drive is limited to 2.2TB, hampering upgrades.
    - 2000UltraDeluxe 4y ago
      The PDF linked to further up this thread describes the process of trusting the 3rd party Microsoft CA that the original article mentions has been distrusted.
  - 4y ago

bayindirh 4y ago

While it's a bit tangential, why I feel like attacks on Linux as an end-user OS deployed to bare metal has increased lately? Linux is way too big to attack on servers today, but why WSL + this shenanigans feel so aligned? Please feel free to counter. I'm not trying to start a fight here.

meowkit 4y ago
Its not an attack. Its more likely they don't want to use man hours to support certain scenarios. WSL is part of Microsoft's internal push to embrace open source. Its feature development. Source: I work on the windows kernel and have met people who work/ed on WSL.
- ungamedplayer 4y ago
  It definitely isn't an 'attack', they just simply have not enabled the correct keys. I strongly doubt that lenovo consider any tiny amount of Linux users in any support scenario. Source: I work on the Linux kernel and met people who work on Linux kernel.
- bayindirh 4y ago
  Hey, thanks for the reply. I have an honest question: How Microsoft is planning to restore trust in open source / free software circles? We have seen pretty horrific things back in the day, and some of us can't trust you, even if we want, and some moves still relight this fire instantly. I want a more friendlier computing environment overall, regardless of the OS we use, and want to be able to interop with other OSes on many levels (protocols, hardware, developers of said OS). Does Microsoft has a plan for this? Because Opening VSCode and slowly putting into proprietary domain & using GPL code in Copilot doesn't inspire trust, to be honest.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - oblio 4y ago
    Do you want the honest answer from someone else in the community? They're not planning to, not really. FAANG + MS are so big that at this point they stopped caring about Open Source and Free Software. The licenses are intentionally permissive that every tool can be used internally if they need it (Linux, bash, etc) plus even more permissive licenses like MIT can be used in commercial products. With web services even GPL can be used in their commercial cloud services. They control a huge chunk of Open Source anyway through their contributors. Plus the level they compete at is so far from Open Source that Open Source basically doesn't matter. It's all services and clouds now. Open Source had its moment circa 2005, now it's just asphalt. Yeah, we use it everyday, but nobody writes home about it. And regular users don't care.

mikojan 4y ago

My last three notebooks have been Lenovo Thinkpads. I am never buying a Lenovo product again.

smngi20 4y ago

lenovo also hides s3 support so it makes it impossible to install anything other than windows and sleep/wake reliably. Never buying lenovos again.

Avamander 4y ago
What? I literally had to disable Linux compatibility in Lenovo BIOS' to get deep sleep on Linux working. It's not hidden?
mjg59 4y ago
There's a meaningful distinction between "Linux doesn't support certain firmware functionality well" (as is still, sadly, the case for s0ix) and "Linux is literally unable to boot unless firmware configuration is modified", which is the case here

shaicoleman 4y ago

According to the spec sheet, Lenovo officially supports Linux on this model, at least for some SKUs. https://psref.lenovo.com/Product/ThinkPad_Z13_Gen_1?tab=spec https://psref.lenovo.com/Product/ThinkPad_Z13_Gen_1?tab=spec

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
Avamander 4y ago
Yep, the person probably just has to disable Device Guard. The UI even warns about not being able to use other OSs when it's enabled.

throwaway553893 4y ago

HN: It's only okay when Google/Apple do it.

Karellen 4y ago
Yeah, I think Microsoft should get some slack here for selling Microsoft hardware that only runs Microsoft software. If people want a general purpose PC that runs OSs other than Microsoft's, they should buy their hardware from a 3rd-party company that isn't Microsoft, who explicitly make a point of supporting other OSs. /s

coffeebeanHH 4y ago

Well, then let's just buy the good 'ol thinkpads and let lenovo go to hell. If they're good they reconsider that decision otherwise have to face the consequences.

bayindirh 4y ago
Unfortunately Linux folks is a way too small market to influence these big corporations. We have to find better ways than "vote with your wallet", because our wallet is not even a blip.
- danuker 4y ago
  Lenovo's profit margin (net income / revenue) is about 3%. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenovo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenovo Here it says 2.43% of desktop (non-mobile/tablet) OSes are Linux. https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/worldwide https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/worldwide This makes a dent. You sponsor a company that SUPPORTS dual-booting instead of one that doesn't. That has double the effect of the price of your laptop: one company loses a sale, the other gains one.
- Majestic121 4y ago
  While it is true for the general market, I think for Lenovo specifically the proportion of user buying at least Thinkpads because they're known good dev machines would push for a much higher proportion of Linux users. Completely out of my hat but I would not be surprised if a good 20%/30% of Thinkpad users are Linux users. Hard to confirm/infirm though.
mindcrime 4y ago
There are very highly placed people at Lenovo (possibly as high as the CEO, but if not, only one or two notches down the org chart) who hate the amount of leverage Microsoft has over them due to the windows hegemony. And those people would love nothing more than to establish Linux as a replacement for Windows and kick MS in the teeth. But. Lenovo are between a rock and a hard place. Because today, whether they like it or not, Microsoft does have that leverage. And if Lenovo come out too forcefully in support of Linux (desktop Linux in particular), they risk having Microsoft screw them over. So as much as they might like to start shipping every laptop with Linux pre-installed tomorrow, they really can't. So they have to be selective and strategic about how much they push in that direction. Source: was a Lenovo employee for a while up through 2019. Little was said about this internally through official channels, but it was all well known. I won't say any more or go into any more detail to avoid the risk of violating some NDA or something that might technically still be in effect or whatever.

Stratoscope 4y ago

> "by default" Hit Enter or F1 at the red Lenovo boot screen, go into the BIOS settings and find the setting and change it. Until someone confirms that there is no such BIOS setting, there is no story here.

bayindirh 4y ago
And invalidate everything in your security processor, which will possibly brick your windows installation and nuke your files if you had bitlocker keys inside that security processor. One weird trick to ruin your day, surely. Edit: Looks like Windows has changed since I left it, please disregard this comment, thank you. The comment is left intact for context correctness.
- danuker 4y ago
  Wow! So, no more dual-booting?
  - Avamander 4y ago
    Well, it depends on if your dual boot changes any of the measurements Bitlocker uses. You don't have to use TPM-backed BL if you don't want to.
- tinus_hn 4y ago
  You can’t be storing irreplaceable keys in the TPM chip, they fail all the time. Either you don’t really need the files on the disk or you need backup keys. And note, you can’t even turn on Bitlocker without being forced to save those backup keys.
  - bayindirh 4y ago
    Does bitlocker give a copy of your keys to you while encrypting your drive? Asking because I'm not a Windows user.
    - 4y ago

neverrroot 4y ago

At the begging slowly creeping in, then all of a sudden. This can’t be just a mistake, this is likely purposely pushing the borders.

hericium 4y ago

Microsoft's hostility towards open source never ended. They "heart" it only when making money off it.

rand49an 4y ago
Wasn't this a decision made by Lenovo in this case?
- altfredd 4y ago
  Lenovo and other laptop manufacturers don't really make such decisions. They do whatever Microsoft tells them to do, because the alternative is being forced to pay extra $200 per laptop sold.

intsunny 4y ago

This might be terrible news. Some of us Linux fans have been waiting for new Lenovo laptops featuring the next gen of AMD chips because they ship with RNDA2 GPUs. RDNA2 is the most powerful open source friendly GPU out there. This has been a long time coming for us Linux fans.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

kouteiheika 4y ago

Well, I knew right from the start when secure boot was first introduced that this is going to happen sooner or later. This is a slippery slope, and I'm sure eventually we'll have computers which will make this not only the default, but also the only way to boot. The war on general-purpose computing is well underway, and I fear we'll lose it. The billions of already completely locked down computers (e.g. every iOS device) does prove that people just don't care, and many (including people here!) will even defend it that they prefer it that way. Eventually we won't have a choice.

pmoriarty 4y ago
This is why we need more open hardware.
- bigpeopleareold 4y ago
  And I sense there will always be a market for it regardless of what large companies who want the widest reach possible (But I am still waiting patiently for the open laptop + trackpoint-on-keyboard combo :) )
- Hackbraten 4y ago
  And there’s only one way to get there: vote with our wallets. Let’s buy the libre hardware that’s available, even if it degrades our experience.
rightbyte 4y ago
Redhat (or Canonical?) had some almost smug FAQ post where they ridiculed the notion that secure boot is a "MS conspiracy" versus Linux. We will see how that turns out ...
- amelius 4y ago
  Apple does the same thing with iOS. So far the company with the best lock down seems to be winning.
fartcannon 4y ago

bubblethink 4y ago

Current linux laptop landscape: Thinkpads (T): Decent keyboards, fwupd. Everything else is mediocre to poor. Dell Precision: About the same as thinkpads. S76, Starlabs: coreboot, upgradable. Mediocre screen, keyboard, trackpad, audio etc. Framework: Not enough to differentiate for the price premium. I have mostly given up on this. If macbooks get gpu linux drivers, I am willing to jump ship.

369548684892826 4y ago
When my x230 finally gives up I’m thinking Pinebook Pro looks pretty good.
- bencollier49 4y ago
  I bought a Pinebook which was bricked almost instantly by a child gently tripping over a lead. The build quality was terrible, it wouldn't have happened with any other laptop I've owned in the last 15 years.
  - bencollier49 4y ago
    I should qualify this by saying that it happened on the day I first got the device. I was really excited to receive it, and it did everything hoped it would, but a gentle pull to the side on the power lead was enough to break internal components such that repair was out of the question, which is a real shame. This was one of the cheap 11" laptops, the bigger ones are probably better.
- hoppyhoppy2 4y ago
  Just be aware that the PBP's performance would be a noticeable downgrade from your X230. Its Geekbench 5 multi-core score is about half of the X230's.
  - 369548684892826 4y ago
    That's disappointing to hear!

foverzar 4y ago

So, what exactly is the news here? This seems to have been a default for years now, hasn't it? Disabling UEFI Secure Boot has been step 1 for installing Linux for as long as UEFI had existed, hasn't it? What exactly is the problem here? I remember doing the same when installing Ubuntu on an ASUS laptop like 10 years ago. The linked article is dumb, doesn't have any technical details, but has a stupid sensational headline.

mjg59 4y ago
> Disabling UEFI Secure Boot has been step 1 for installing Linux for as long as UEFI had existed, hasn't it? Many people did a lot of work to ensure that Linux could be installed on systems with UEFI Secure Boot enabled.
- sam_lowry_ 4y ago
  Does it apply to RedHat, Ubuntu, SUSE and the likes only? I wonder if as an Arch Linux user I can boot with Secure Boot enabled.
  - pabs3 4y ago
    Looks like you can't: "Note: The official installation image does not support Secure Boot (FS#53864). To successfully boot the installation medium you will need to disable Secure Boot." https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Unified_Extensible_Firmware_Interface/Secure_Boot https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Unified_Extensible_Firmware... https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/53864 https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/53864
    - Arnavion 4y ago
      If you're using Arch you're probably willing to set up SB with your own keys. (Heck, I use my own keys on OpenSUSE even though my distro signs the kernel, because I want to use systemd-boot instead of mokutil since the latter is broken on my motherboard.)
    - Foxboron 4y ago

notrealyme123 4y ago

In my opinion, this news is exaggerated. The 3rd party UEFI CA key is implemented by the Shim, which is an attack vector. To be certified by default for the shim, the workflow is a github issue [0]. This is not necessarily bad, but a vector for social-engineering and more. If an attacker is signed by the shim, he can execute trusted code on most machines without problems. IMO it is better to leave this choice to the user to take this risk and enable the shim. Who installs linux should make this choice consciously [0]: https://github.com/rhboot/shim-review https://github.com/rhboot/shim-review

mjg59 4y ago
Booting via Shim will result in different PCR 7 values, which mean you can ensure that the OS won't boot if an attacker has subverted a signed version of Shim to execute Windows rather than the expected OS.

maverick74 4y ago

Doesn't mean a thing to me. I was never interested in their machines and even if i would ever be, this puts things very simple: Lenovo is a no-go! If they don't care about user's freedom of choice and wants to lock them into that M$ thing, then i'll simply won't care about them either!

2143 4y ago
What machine do you use?

Eavolution 4y ago

My Acer laptop has something similar, I tried to dual boot windows (preinstalled) and debian, debian couldnt see the hard drive no matter what I did. I'm assuming somehow Acer made it so the drive is only visable to windows

Dorothy014 4y ago

[dead]

mkl95 4y ago

Most Linux users are savvy enough to tinker with the BIOS for a couple of minutes and get rid of this thing. All this feature does is feed some MS / Lenovo exec power fantasy.

PossiblyKyle 4y ago
Which retains the high barrier of entry to Linux. Linux will never be mainstream as long as itself and the community primarily embrace tech savvies and nobody else
- mkl95 4y ago
  It may be a business opportunity. Order a bunch of Linux-unfriendly Lenovos, install Linux distro of choice, sell for a few <insert currency here> more.

juhon 4y ago

juhonii 4y ago

bitwize 4y ago

In which mjg finds out this was the plan all along, only now when the parade floats have stopped dead in their tracks and opened up to reveal the tanks inside: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5u1u5IuLec&t=1m10s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5u1u5IuLec&t=1m10s

10x-dev 4y ago

I bought one of these laptops. It came with Windows 11. I followed the steps on Ubuntu website to flash a USB drive and the laptop didn't boot from it, despite selecting to boot from USB. After disabling Secure Boot from BIOS, I was able to install Ubuntu. Windows continued to work just fine. iirc whatever cert grub was using has been blacklisted by Lenovo because of some recent security issue in grub (I can't find the details right now). Whatever your stance on Secure Boot, this increases friction and raises the tech bar for people to install other OSes. I imagine that even a "power" user wanting to try Linux would be very confused and would probably give up after not being able to boot from USB.

megous 4y ago
Was there no user friendly error message?
- 10x-dev 4y ago
  Nope, an error quickly flashed on the screen (something like "Error 22", no real info) before the laptop proceeded to boot Windows.

peter_retief 4y ago

Sometimes I feel that Microsoft thinks it owns the hardware and is doing me, the customer, a favour letting me install my operating system of choice.

oaiey 4y ago
True. But I think that is not a grab move but more a situation where they are competing with Apple on the security front (which for end users is a huge sales argument). And that competition with Apple and battle against hackers goes top-down everywhere.

criley2 4y ago

Imagine if Apple laptops could only boot OSX by default

iostream25 4y ago

When will OEM's realize that forcing Windows on computer purchasers is less than ideal? I don't mean to merely refer to this particular issue/non-issue. I refer to the entire industry pre-loading Microsoft Windows on every new computer as IF this were the desire of everyone in the world. I'm not suggesting that there isn't a market for Windows, I'm suggesting that an industry-wide forced-Windows-ONLY world is bad for the market, bad for consumers, and probably bad for OEMs... If it's some shady Microsoft OEM contract FORCING this to be the case, let's see an example. Didn't anyone challenge it? Why don't Dell or Lenovo sell 10-20% Linux laptop preloads? Surely one can understand that developers and plenty of other users require Linux not Windows, right? Why are Linux preloads expensive and odd? Why are more OEMs not ALSO selling Linux preloads? So annoying!

jabbany 4y ago
A lot of these large volume OEMs depend on extra revenue from the Windows bloatware that they preload (antivirus, games, social apps etc.)... Usually they get a kickback based on volume sold. This stuff largely doesn't exist for Linux, so they're missing out on this profit for any Linux preloads. It's also why you see Linux preloads mostly done by more boutique PC builders -- they've already charged a reasonable premium on the build.
nitrixion 4y ago
Both Dell and Lenovo sell Linux Laptop preloads. I think you may be overestimating the market for such devices. As an anecdote, every developer that I know and I personally use Windows or Mac laptops and desktops. 1 guy in the group has a linux setup, but primarily uses Windows or Mac. While most of us have installed Linux on a device at some point, none of us use it as our daily driver. I'm talking about a network of roughly 100 devs that worked together or are a friend of a friend that chat on Slack daily. Yes, it is a small sample size, but it is relatively representative of what I've seen from devs at all of my previous companies over a 14 year software dev/engineering career.
em-bee 4y ago
it's time for law-makers to step in and force OEM's to have both systems preinstalled, with a choice at boot, like the EU did for browsers. linux doesn't even need more than a few GB of space so with todays disks the space is negligible.

lizardactivist 4y ago

Lots of kerfuffle over nothing, and of course the most noise comes from the peculiar regulars, chanting about how Lenovo has to go away, or is not to be trusted etc. The machine supports Linux. You may have to hop into the firmware settings first.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

djbusby 4y ago

Just got a Yoga6. Had to go into BIOS and disable secure boot. Then F12 on boot to choose my SysResc USB, boot that. Add syslinux to existing EFI partition. Install Gentoo. Rsync /home from the old machine. But it did take some fiddling with efibootmgr to fully purge the Windows shit. MS still gets paid for the license, even when it's not used.

kchoudhu 4y ago

Oh, Lenovo is shipping laptops? The cancellation of the last three orders I attempted to place with them left me under the impression that they weren't shipping them anymore...

WheatM 4y ago

ChildOfChaos 4y ago

I mean who cares? 99.9999999% of people will want Windows, if you are going to run a obscure OS then you would choose a machine that runs that best, so just don't buy one of these. It's not up to hardware OEM's to support or even allow you to install some weird OS.

habitue 4y ago
This attitude is kind of the ios-flavored "computers are appliances I license from the manufacturer at their pleasure" not "computers are general purpose devices I purchase and can then do what I want with"
- ChildOfChaos 4y ago
  Well as long as you know what you are buying when you buy it that is your choice. You can't do whatever you want with most things that you buy and most consumers do not care like most hacker news readers do, people just want something that does the task they bought it for and don't need to tinker with it. Most people buying a laptop don't really think of the OS is running, they just expect it to be Windows and assume that it is part of computer itself.

kaliszad 4y ago

Do the USB 4 ports actually work as Thunderbolt 3 too? I know the post is about the Z-series. Perhaps somebody already knows... It seems the AMD-based T14 Gen3 Thinkpads actually don't support Thunderbolt. Some people speculated, it is a firmware matter on AMDs side and will be added in the future but that doesn't sound reassuring at all to me. On the product pictures, you can clearly see the Thunderbolt lightning logos besides the USB-C ports but that doesn't mean anything.

lazerl0rd 4y ago

This isn't going to be just Lenovo. Microsoft requires that the certificate in question is not part of the Secure Boot database for any device meeting/utilising the "Device Guard" functionality. And as others have said, as long as you can enroll your own keys this isn't really a bad thing. It improves security by default for the default OS shipped with the device. You have to go away from the defaults to use Linux anyways, so one more toggle isn't going to kill anyone.