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Tell HN: Razorpay a YC company shared donor data under a Section 91 order

• smashah 4y ago
  It's concerning that YC is funding companies that are so aligned with BJP bigotry that they comply with invasion of privacy requests without a court order.
  • flareback 4y ago
    What is "BJP"?
    • jfk13 4y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bharatiya_Janata_Party https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bharatiya_Janata_Party
  • ramraj07 4y ago
    If they find any company in India they’re hitting a 50-50 that the company would do something like this. Only option then is not to invest in india?
  • sumedh 4y ago
    If you dont comply with the govt, the govt can shut down your business without a due process if you dont have the money to fight.
  • anon261114 4y ago
    I give zero sympathy or support to BJP and its destruction of India's democratic institutions. Yet, I can't agree with your comment. First, I don't think Razorpay supports BJP or its bigotry, at least openly. One indicator of that is that they have retained critical media like AltNews and Wire as customers from years. I don't think they'd do that if they were pro-BJP or pro-bigotry. Plus, I've noticed that rightwing companies and founders are generally very vocal about their support on social media (e.g.: PayTM, Zoho). They like boasting about their ideology. I don't see that with Razorpay or its founders. As far as I can see, Razorpay is "neutral". Second, I don't see how YC can avoid funding such companies. You can't really expect them to include a rightwing checkbox that automatically excludes founders. YC itself seems to ignore ideology anyway. To repeat the previous point, there's nothing visibly political about Razorpay. It's not involved in any Indian government projects. It's not a Huawei or Palantir of India. I really don't see how YC can avoid funding such companies. Third, the justice system that emerges from Indian laws, police training, and even its legal jurisprudence is anything but liberal. And that's ignoring the unethical malicious thinking that's prevalent in those people. We have sedition, UAPA, a quasi-blasphemy law, and a dozen other similar illiberal laws. Section 91 of the CrPC does seem to compel companies to hand over any information that's asked. I see this as an undesirable, but inevitable, outcome of our legal system. Whenever I donate, I do so knowing that I may come under government scrutiny some day. Probably, Razorpay could have resisted the demand a little. But I doubt any neutral company does that. And even if they did, it wouldn't be for too long - some lower court would have forced them to disclose transactions. A possible future outcome: The law and judiciary are increasingly turning into kangaroo courts. If Zubair or AltNews are declared terrorists under UAPA, all donors (who were just donating to upholding truth) can be labeled terror funders!
    • ahamedirshad123 4y ago
      Go through the timeline of founder of Razorpay, and you will know.
    • smashah 4y ago
      neutrality in the face of bigotry seems like alignment, or at least it's a sign of a larger problem which you've very clearly laid out. I think it's time to consider Boycotting, divestment and sanctions of India since it's flat-spinning into the clutches of full-on fascism. Very sad.
  • lazyninja987 4y ago
    I dont think it has anything to do with BJP. Congress in the past too jailed people for criticizing sonia gandhi over social media. It was facebook of the past. Having said that, razor pay has very less options here. Anti-money laundering laws across the world record sender-reciever details out-of-the-box even though the transaction is as benign as buying a box of chocolates. In this scenario, govt came back to collect information, which it asked razorpay to collect as part of book keeping.
• known 4y ago
• ushakov 4y ago
  current year has brought a lot of public embarrassment for YC
  • baxtr 4y ago
    What else happened?
    • ushakov 4y ago
      they keep funding fraudsters https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31431224 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31431224 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30899352 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30899352
      • AlexandrB 4y ago
        Also this one from last year: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26898266 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26898266
      • ezekiel11 4y ago
        dont forget coinbase and how much Paul vouched for that awful grifter Brian Armstrong. some families out there are now fatherless because they lost money on the shitcoins promoted thru and offered on coinbase. imagine enriching yourself by having poor ppl transfer over their life savings and causing suicides. this is what Paul & YC/crypto proponents are okay with since its not illegal.
        • methusala8 4y ago
          Did Paul ask them to handover the money too? There is such a thing as using our brains and then living with the consequences of our decisions.
  • navigate8310 4y ago
    Care to explain, how is this related to the topic in discussion?
• ghoomketu 4y ago
  While I have no sympathy for razorpay but I'd just like to point out that laws in India are much more heavy handed than a country like US. People are thrown in jail for social media posts and sometimes just for liking a social media post(1) Twitter has been having a very hard time operating in India too(2) and routinely censoring stuff so while IANAL just remember that things are very different in different parts of the world. (1) https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/arrested-over-a-facebook-status-7-times-people-landed-in-jail-for-posts-against-politicians/story-ON1jukoStfV6T8aYcJEVGJ.html https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/arrested-over-a-fa...? (2) https://restofworld.org/2022/twitters-censorship-india/ https://restofworld.org/2022/twitters-censorship-india/
  • sateesh 4y ago
    But as the article suggests why was there a need to share data of all donors, they could have shared only those that originated outside India.
    • sa1 4y ago
      There were no transactions originating outside India, the payments were configured to accept only Indian cards.
      • hef19898 4y ago
        Well, my inner cynic assumes that authorities know that. And that is exactly the reason why the wanted the records. Might be a tad hard to crack down on foreign donors, harassing domestic ones on the other hand...
    • ahamedirshad123 4y ago
      LoL. They don't recieve payment from foreign countries.
  • anovikov 4y ago
    And this is billed as "world's largest democracy". Wtf is the bullshit we are made to believe? Why don't we just stop pretending and relabel most "democratic" countries as just "pro-Westnern"?
• londons_explore 4y ago
  In some parts of the world, an official police request is equivalent to a court order.
  • rg111 4y ago
    I do not know too much about these. But, couldn't they fight it in court?
    • sneak 4y ago
      Hard to make it in to court with dozens of broken bones.
      • shaan7 4y ago
        And not much point after you data has _already_ been shared.
    • boruto 4y ago
      > But, couldn't they fight it in court? Why would they? They want to do business without much headache.
• notlukesky 4y ago
  They jailed the CEO of Qwest who refused to share surveillance data with the NSA without a court order. This seems to be prudent in other jurisdictions as well, other than the US and now India of course. https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2007/10/qwest-ceo-nsa-punished-qwest-refusing-participate-illegal-surveillance-pre-9-11 https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2007/10/qwest-ceo-nsa-punished...
  • sneak 4y ago
    Apple chose not-jail and not-ban when faced with the requirement that all iCloud users in China be subject to realtime CCP surveillance. Apple's iCloud operations in China (required under Chinese law for Chinese users) are in CCP-controlled datacenters. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/17/technology/apple-china-censorship-data.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/17/technology/apple-china-ce... Then they did it again in the USA, preserving a backdoor in the end-to-end crypto of iMessage for the FBI: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusive/exclusive-apple-dropped-plan-for-encrypting-backups-after-fbi-complained-sources-idUSKBN1ZK1CT https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusiv... If you are large enough, the laws don't apply to the government's strong-arm treatment of you. They have all the machine guns, you have none. Presumably Apple de facto does not have the right to widely publish surveillance-resistant end to end crypto without state retribution for same, even on home turf with ostensible 1A rights. This is why they are deploying clientside spyware to scan your local files for CP (or anything else they are forced to scan for in the future by a adversary-controlled DoJ or DHS (hello 2025)). The secure architecture of the iPhone and iPad make it impossible to alter or disable this functionality even on your own device. The power dynamic is the same in all large countries, regardless of political structure. You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.
    • O__________O 4y ago
      What Apple does publicly and privately are not the same thing, and if anything, Apple has a track record of not removing loopholes that would reduce the surface area available for secret agreements and/or orders; for example, iCloud being able to view data. Related: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_security_letter https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_security_letter
• methusala8 4y ago
  • ahamedirshad123 4y ago
    Altnews don't receive payment from abroad. You know it well, and you won't say it here. We all know the reason.
    • omniglottal 4y ago
      No, actually, "we" don't all know whatever you're not talking about.
      • ahamedirshad123 4y ago
        The OP knows.
        • deleted 4y ago
          [deleted]
  • noufalibrahim 4y ago
    I don't think AltNews received foreign funding. Nor was it possible for Razorpay to process the payment. Interestingly, it's possible for political parties to receive foreign funding (via. Electoral Bonds) without much transparency to the electorate about how much they receive.
    • throwaway_1928 4y ago
      Razorpay might be in trouble for processing foreign funds without FCRA approval.
      • sa1 4y ago
        International credit cards were always disabled for Altnews.
• abdellah123 4y ago
  tl;dr don't save sensitive data all together. Encrypt if you must so that even you can't access it if you wanted to
• thway_nohitler 4y ago
  This is very sad to see, and makes me really worry about the people who got their names handed to the police. The current jingoistic BJP regime is doing all sorts of authoratarian things in India, like demolishing housing for merely taking part in protests [0]. They have also used facial recognition techniques to identify mere protesters and punish them severely [1]. They put a doctor in jail for saving lives of kids by paying for oxygen out of his own pocket, because he publicized those already dead [2]. I am seriously worried about what will happen to the people whose names were in the donors' list. Will they be arrested, be put on some sort of shitlist and their lives will be made full of problems because they dared to fund a company that merely fact-check the lies spread by the IT cell of the ruling party? Note that, the tweet is a mere screenshot of a movie from 1983. The director or the producer of the movie aren’t touched. But sharing the screenshot unedited put him in jail [3]. It is also a major factor that he has an Arabic name. [0]: https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-asia-india-61785275 https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-asia-india-61785275 [1]: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-india-citizenship-protests-technology-idUSKBN20B0ZQ https://www.reuters.com/article/us-india-citizenship-protest... [2]: https://www.freepressjournal.in/india/explained-who-is-dr-kafeel-khan-and-why-is-he-in-jail https://www.freepressjournal.in/india/explained-who-is-dr-ka... [3]: https://m.thewire.in/article/communalism/kissi-se-na-kehna-mohammed-zubair-arrested-for-tweeting-photo-from-1983-hindi-film https://m.thewire.in/article/communalism/kissi-se-na-kehna-m...
  • hans1729 4y ago
    fyi, I get a `page not found` for [3].
    • thway_nohitler 4y ago
      Fixed, thanks.
  • throwaway_1928 4y ago
    Referencing the BBC and the Wire here is the equivalent of quoting the WaPo when discussing Trump.
• 0xmohit 4y ago
  In UP, India, a Muslim restaurant owner was arrested because the non-veg food he wrapped with old newspapers had photos of Hindu gods and goddesses. https://thewire.in/rights/up-man-arrested-for-wrapping-chicken-in-old-newspaper-charged-with-attempt-to-murder https://thewire.in/rights/up-man-arrested-for-wrapping-chick...
  • methusala8 4y ago
    I can share ten stories where the offenders are Muslims and the victims are Hindus. Wire won't be covering those stories. This newspaper is as prejudiced against Hindus as it gets.
    • spaceman_2020 4y ago
      The Wire doesn’t need to cover them because mainstream media channels are already blasting them on primetime everyday. Amazing that in a country where there’s a Hindu in practically every single position of authority, Hindus still harbor such a deep seated victimization complex.
      • methusala8 4y ago
      • pessimizer 4y ago
        Not that amazing. In the US, see Christians, white people, and men.
        • hef19898 4y ago
          And like every where, if something threatens the perceived superiority of a well established, powerful group that group will do everything to fight. Regardless of religion.
        • dang 4y ago
          Please do not take HN threads further into religious flamewar hell. Nor nationalistic flamewar hell, please. Those are the last things we need here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
• yrgulation 4y ago
  A shame that corrupt and poor countries are not protecting their startups. Doesn't the police and government in India understand that such abuse will steer away even more investment?
  • deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  • MrBlueIncognito 4y ago
    They'll just blame the other countries. The government, the police, and most the population exhibit an exceptional ability to believe in their own lies.
• senthilnayagam 4y ago
  • throw_away_1042 4y ago
    >money was received from syria and pakistan to this account This is untrue. Razor pay did not accept international credit cards. >Data was sought from the startup about this account by court order. There was no court order.
    • lazyninja987 4y ago
      bruh, razorpay supports processing international cards. its literally on their website.
  • unmole 4y ago
    > money was received from syria and pakistan Did you learn this from WhatsApp University?
  • pkphilip 4y ago
    RazorPay does not even support non-Indian credit cards and payment instruments unless explicitly turned on - and this wasn't the case with Altnews. So there is no way anyone from Syria or Pakistan could have donated to Altnews.
• ad93611 4y ago
  I’m a startup founder where most of our employees are based in India. I don’t condone this move by Razorpay. However, as someone else pointed out, the legal process in India is not robust, and it is biased toward people in power. Here are some constructive ways to avoid situations like this: 1. Register your company outside of India. The US is an excellent option because of the solid legal framework. 2. Encrypt the data. Ask for access from your customers, even for your own support teams. 3. Use international companies for services whenever possible. It would be great to have a regular process to delete old data if you don’t need it for business purposes, and this is hard to do because you could develop an innovative way to add customer value using the old data you don’t know of today.
  • methusala8 4y ago
  • wtmt 4y ago
    Unfortunately, the data part won’t work very well because of the strict data localization laws that require financial data to be stored in India. Related to this, Amex and MasterCard were banned from issuing new cards in India. The ban on MasterCard was removed recently (nearly a year later) after compliance. The ban on Amex is still not lifted.
  • boruto 4y ago
    i am sure there are compliance and regulations which would prevent FinTech companies acting on their own whims.
  • lazyasciiart 4y ago
    > It would be great to have a regular process to delete old data if you don’t need it for business purposes, and this is hard to do because you could develop an innovative way to add customer value using the old data you don’t know of today. It is not "hard to do" just because you would like not to do it. This is the first step you should be taking, not faffing around with international corporate registrations and encryption to create weak protection for data that you shouldn't have in the first place.
• rdl 4y ago
  I'm not a lawyer, nor am I an Indian lawyer, but if Razorpay received a Section 91 order (https://indiankanoon.org/doc/788840/ https://indiankanoon.org/doc/788840/) they wouldn't have much choice on turning over any records. It looks to be the rough equivalent of third party doctrine in the US (which is also horrible). It can come from "any Court or any officer in charge of a police station". Banks and fintech in many countries are even more exposed to data demands than regular data processors. Pitchforks may be justified here, but perhaps not directed at Razorpay.
  • randomperson_24 4y ago
    Razorpay did receive a Section 91 order according to their tweet: https://twitter.com/Razorpay/status/1544313411621646338 https://twitter.com/Razorpay/status/1544313411621646338
    • ridiculous_leke 4y ago
      This is an important detail that OP missed in their post.
      • jacquesm 4y ago
        That wasn't an accident.
        • maatrson 4y ago
          Agree
    • dang 4y ago
      Ok, I've edited the title above to include this detail. (Submitted title was "Tell HN: Razorpay a YC company shared donor data without court order".) This is less moderation than we would normally do. Under normal circumstances, we would not allow a submitter to use a text post to put their own tendentious spin on a story like this—especially when the account seems politically driven (e.g. bringing up past partisan tweets to bolster a political case, which is not in the intended spirit of HN). Most probably we'd change the post to point to the most neutral third-party article we could find—or, if someone had already posted one, we might merge this thread into it. However, the first principle of HN moderation is that we moderate less, not more, when YC or a YC startup is involved (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=by%3Adang%20moderate%20%22less%2C%20not%20more%22&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...). So I'm suspending normal practice in favor of this relatively small intervention. Edit: I suppose I should add that none of what I've written here has to do with the specific details of the story, which I haven't personally looked into. Commenters in this thread seem to be doing a reasonable job of discussing it, with the exception of some veerings into religious/political flamewar, which we've done the usual moderation with. I suppose I should also add that we haven't downweighted the submission—its ranking is being determined by user voting and flagging. And we haven't pinned any comments, except the moderation replies in flamewar subthreads like https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32000788 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32000788 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32000252 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32000252 (standard practice).
• deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
• throwaway-jim 4y ago
  This is where Monero (a cryptocurrency with anonymity built in) could have been able to hide the donors identity from being shared with the government.
• jeswin 4y ago
  Here's what happened: - Nupur Sharma, spokesperson of the governing party (BJP) mocks Prophet Mohammed on National TV saying that he had sex with a 9 year old. She then justifies it saying she was quoting the Hadith (Islamic religious texts). - ZooBear on Twitter brings attention to the issue, via his channel AltNews - India gets international condemnation, Gulf countries are pissed - India apologizes to various Gulf countries and calls Nupur Sharma a "fringe element" - Muslims in India are still very, very angry. There are widespread calls to behead Nupur Sharma. - Two people get murdered (one beheaded and the video streamed) for supporting Nupur Sharma on Social Media - Now it's Hindus' turn to be pissed; they want ZooBear arrested (using whatever laws they can find) - They dig up ZooBear's own old social media posts, file cases against him using blasphemy laws, and he gets arrested - The govt is pissed too; so they try to lock ZooBear up under various laws, such as laws pertaining to how international donations need to be accounted - The police ask RazorPay to hand over a list of people who have donated to AltNews, under Section 91 of the Code Of Criminal Procedure - They comply.
  • Clubber 4y ago
    Whenever I think US politics have gone off the rails, it's perhaps comforting to see other countries are way worse.
    • mrguyorama 4y ago
      Except this kind of system (significant nepotism, open corruption, a government that people mostly don't have faith in, strongly charged with religious fervor and rhetoric) Is pretty much exactly what the more aggressive parts of the American Right are literally trying to make happen. Oh, and they are succeeding spectacularly.
  • throwaway_1928 4y ago
    Not entirely true. - TV debates in India are charged and partisan. - Nupur Sharma was debating a man named Tasneem Rehmani. - Tasleem Rehmani said something denigrating towards a Hindu God (which is normal and typically goes unpunished and even unnoticed in India). - Nupur Sharma countered him by saying "Do not mock my religion. Do you want me to start talking about flying horses or the fact that your Prophet married a girl at age 6 and consummated the marriage at age 9?" - Various Islamic scholars have themselves said exactly what Nupur Sharma said. She was merely quoting their own texts in a debate. - Debate goes on and ends. Nothing happens for days. - Self-proclaimed 'fact checker' (not a journalist, according to himself) Mohammed Zubair edits this debate clip, removes the provocation by Tasneem Rehmani, only showing Nupur Sharma 'insulting' this religious Prophet. - Zubair then distributes this clip across social media and various Islamic Whatsapp groups. - In India, free speech is not absolute. Saying and doing things to create enmity between religious groups is a crime. - The fact that what Nupur Sharma says is factual and simply a response to what Tasneem Rehmani said, becomes irrelevant. - Many Muslims in India, millions of whom study in Islamic seminaries (madrasas), are whipped into a frenzy and behead multiple people with the slogan 'Sar Tan Se Juda' (meaning they will separate heads from bodies, in the ISIS style). - Police and agencies arrest this 'fact checker' Zubair and are looking into his funding. This is where the RazorPay data comes in. - Prior to his arrest, he deletes several of his social media posts and tweets mocking Hindu Gods. - Various organizations like the BBC, New York Times, Al Jazeera as well as India's left leaning publications decry Zubair's arrest as an 'attack on democracy'.
• flak48 4y ago
  This is the unfortunate reality of India; the government/police don't need to actually go to court. It can harass companies and executives by simply threatening to / actually carrying out unnecessary 'raids' through the tax department. The usual process is for the a bunch of policemen and beareaucrats to just show up unannounced; seal the office so that no one can enter or leave, and seize computers / phones, files and demand random stuff like invoices for $10 purchases from three years ago and so on. This can happen regularly until all business basically comes to a halt (unless the company complies with whatever the government wants). [1] The next step is to threaten arrests and actually carry out some arrests on trumped up charge, and you can wait forever until trial (unless you comply with what the government wants). The trials usually result in acquittal after several years but the process is the punishment. The media in the meanwhile is happy to go along with the official version (that the company is question is allegedly employing shady accounting practices). The next stage is painting the company as 'anti national', arrange for a few mobs to harrass folks / attempt lynchings and finally actually 'dissappear'/kill people (this last step is usually reserved for judges/writers etc since others usually comply before this step) [1]: https://www.economist.com/asia/2021/10/02/indias-government-is-using-the-taxman-against-its-opponents https://www.economist.com/asia/2021/10/02/indias-government-...
  • worker_person 4y ago
    • mellavora 4y ago
      How is this working against civil forfeiture? How is this working against the % of the population incarcerated? disclaimer: gun owner and competitive sport shooter.
      • samstave 4y ago
        Personally, am convinced that the second amendment was co-opted to be a wedge-issue in that ; it actively separates groups, fills the media with plenty of wedge-based fluff while allowing them to skirt around the deeper truths etc. My grandpa always used to say: >>I will never say "I am a gun owner" <-- Something gun owners should never say (see the 2nd amendment, as, when the 2nd amendment is repealed guess who they have a list of -- Personally EVERYONE should know how to properly handle a gun. ESPECIALLY if you "hate guns" <-- If you hate guns, then you best be sure to know how to ensure (I love etymology; ensure - the act of being sure, proficient, con-fident (vouching for the fidelity|truth)) they are unloaded, safe, or disabled/locked/safe/well-kept/not around fucking kids on SSRIs. /rant.
• Bla2e 4y ago
  [flagged]
  • fishes_pisces 4y ago
    Well,the news source you cited has a bad reputation for publishing fake news[1][2]. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpIndia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpIndia [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fake_news_websites https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fake_news_websites
  • deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  • throw_away_1042 4y ago
    The source you quoted is questionable. "The website has published fake news[26] and anti-Muslim[30] commentary on multiple occasions, including a 2020 incident in which it falsely claimed that a Hindu boy was sacrificed in a Bihar mosque" From the wiki page of OpIndia, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpIndia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpIndia Also foreign credit cards were not enabled on RazorPay
    • deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
• hiyer 4y ago
  Razorpay acted completely in accordance with Indian laws. They shared this information because they received a written order under section 91 of the Criminal Procedure Code (CrPC) of India[1]. This does not mandate a court order to produce the required documents. The order can be given by the officer in charge of a police station as well. 1. https://indiankanoon.org/doc/788840/ https://indiankanoon.org/doc/788840/
• bipulranjan 4y ago
  • pkphilip 4y ago
    You are linking to OpIndia - a virulent, propagandist right-wing publication?
    • tr1ll10nb1ll 4y ago
      The sad part is people with enough social awareness still linking these publications (ones that push a certain political agenda, in this case- far-right) probably do not perceive this as the sole truth rather as a means to defend the injustice they too deem right being carried out. In other words, any justification possible for their views.
      • bipulranjan 4y ago
        Yes, OpIndia pushes far-right agenda that doesn't change the fact stated in the article I linked that Md. Zubair has deleted his facebook page after people started reporting his post. BTW, what agenda Alt News promote? Regarding injustice, if you are alive atleast you can hope for justice. What justification you are going to provide for beheading of Hindus?
        • tr1ll10nb1ll 4y ago
          I really wish dang locks down this post right now. It's hard to have a logical discussion when certain parties involved in the discussion (like you, currently) sensationalize everything disproportionately. There is no point in having a petty argument when your whole world view is warped and you don't recognize what's going on in your country. You seem to only be focused on one-quarter of the reality that favors your views. It might be due to willful ignorance, it might be due to bigotry, who knows. I'm not accusing you of any of those, just stating the possibilities. Either way, it comes to down to savagery in discussions like these and just shows you don't intend to seek the truth rather intend to provoke others around you. P.S This is not directed at just you. This is directed at others who practice similar ways of getting their point across as you. Sorry about the rant, but it's annoying and sickening.
• ahamedirshad123 4y ago
  Again Altnews doesn't accept foreign donations. This is from Razorpay page for Altnews. No foreign donations We do not accept foreign remittance as we are not registered under the FCRA Act. Only Indian citizens with Indian bank accounts can donate currently.
  • boruto 4y ago
    It is completely immoral that some people want to paint Altnews as boogieman receiving donations from Pak and syria.
  • throwaway_9120 4y ago
    You are all across comments section repeating this again and again. Does a criminal ever accepts his(her) crime? AltNews is free to write anything on their website OR on their own page on RazorPay, that doesn’t mean a thing. There are several hundreds other payment processors and ways that they can avail to get money from foreign nations. As of current state of investigation, Police say that he has already accepted taking money from Pakistan and Syria. https://indianexpress.com/article/cities/delhi/alt-news-co-founder-mohammed-zubair-bail-plea-pakistan-syria-donations-8004856/ https://indianexpress.com/article/cities/delhi/alt-news-co-f...
• eastern 4y ago
  This might come as a surprise to most people on this page but India and other countries around the world actually have there own laws and don't follow US laws. No court order is required for this data. The relevant law states this: Whenever any Court or any officer in charge of a police station considers that the production of any document or other thing is necessary or desirable for the purposes of any investigation, inquiry, trial or other proceeding under this Code by or before such Court or officer, such Court may issue a summons, or such officer a written order, to the person in whose possession or power such document or thing is believed to be, requiring him to attend and produce it, or to produce it, at the time and place stated in the summons or order.
  • webartisan 4y ago
    It's not about your laws vs my laws — I think we can objectively judge what sort of protections make sense for someone who doesn't necessarily agree with the government of the day, without going into defensive nationalism.
• jacquesm 4y ago
  I've flagged this because (1) the poster is anonymous and (2) they misrepresent the issue in the title and (3) they seem to have some kind of beef with Razorpay. See: https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=throw_away_1042 https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=throw_away_1042
  • throw_away_1042 4y ago
    Anonymous because I worry about my and family's life. I have a real handle, if I use that, I'm almost certain that I will receive death threats and false police cases. The issue is not misrepresented. There was no court order. The said police written request is not contested by Razorypay. Looking at the past tweets from one of the co-founder it is not surprising to see the compliance with the request. https://twitter.com/shashank_kr/status/1175974410202697728 https://twitter.com/shashank_kr/status/1175974410202697728 https://imgur.com/a/ZDRZZ87 https://imgur.com/a/ZDRZZ87
    • jacquesm 4y ago
      > Anonymous because I worry about my and family's life. I would be far more ready to believe you if you had stuck to the facts.
  • anon261114 4y ago
    > because (1) the poster is anonymous Please rethink this criterion. Those of us who live under authoritarian regimes have to be cautious to protect us from both our governments and members of our society who support them.
    • jacquesm 4y ago
      Not in the case of an obvious attack. Anonymous cowards I have a problem with, anonymous people who share important information because otherwise their lives are in danger is a different story but this is - contrary to the claims of the author - not one of those, it is simply a very thinly disguised hitpiece. And I'm saying that as someone who has been pretty critical of YC when it comes to certain ethics issues, which - for the most part - they have worked on to improve.
• ycycman 4y ago
  The 2018 post was a 1983 movie clip cleared by the Indian censor board. How does sharing a mainstream Indian movie clip in 2018 be considered as offensive? The Indian government has stooped a lot. The YC company razorpay founder from his previous tweets has serious inclination towards the ruling government, that's the reason he sold out private data without court order.
• xutopia 4y ago
  They're in India. The laws and customs are different there. Why is this surprising to you?
• throwaway89__ 4y ago
  [flagged]
• semanticvector 4y ago
  If someone would remember, Proton AG (so called most secure mail and mode of communication), had to share client details under govt orders. Razorpay is similarly following Indian law, which it has to, as it operates in India. Clickbaity title, with a throw-away account is sure doing wonders here.
• wtmt 4y ago
  The police made a different statement and claimed that they had only requested RazorPay donor information of any foreign donors to AltNews (which claimed that it had restricted payments only from Indian citizens in India), and that they hadn’t asked RazorPay to disable the account of AltNews. Yet, RazorPay disabled the account for a day and then enabled it. Now, the request was made under a law (CRPC 91) that allows the police to request for any “document or thing”. So a court order is not necessary. But there seems to be a lot that’s not being revealed here honestly. While I wouldn’t blame RazorPay for being yet another scared Indian company that obeys (perceived) authority immediately for any request from any government entity, it doesn’t bode well that no Indian started company stands up to law enforcement or the government. Only some multinational companies seem to have the guts to question unreasonable requests. Indian laws are overly broad and sometimes it seems like the whole system can be simplified into a few sentences that allows government authorities in any department to request or takeover anything and cite “national security” or “public law and order” as the reasons. /s Seriously though, the “largest democracy” tag doesn’t go well with the laws and the legal system. It’s a disappointment and a shame.
  • eldaisfish 4y ago
    The rule of law in india is an elaborate sham. The law is whatever you are told by any tentacle of the Indian government. The worst part is that there is no recourse - literally none. Many in the west don't have a good grasp of how the legal and administrative systems function in a country like india. As for "largest democracy" it is true if you consider India's voting system. It is among the best in the world at access and transparency. Unfortunately, every other aspect of democracy is a joke in india. The law you cited is intentionally vague. It is this way to give the government and administration the means to weaponize the state against the little guy.
• upupandup 4y ago
  I mean when you push founders to "break the rules but not the law" eventually they are going to.
• ycycman 4y ago
  The state of police in India is so pathetic that the founder of altnews was arrested due to a tweet which tagged local police and shared a link from a post in 2018. Interestingly the Twitter account was created recently with zero followers. An investigation by www.wire.in found out the same person had 750+ Twitter accounts and is some sort of leader of the ruling party BJP https://thewire.in/tekfog/altnews.html https://thewire.in/tekfog/altnews.html
• pvsukale3 4y ago
  Rule of law is a joke in India. Center has central agencies and each states has their own police department. So whenever there is a noticeable criticism from someone centre or state govt will send their police/agency your way. You will be detained, put through the worst conditions and false charges will be filed. Most of these charges don't hold in higher courts but the damage is done. You will suffer, a lot. You will not dare to speak up again. This is even so comical, sometimes centre will send agencies against another party politicians in power in a state they are not in power, and state will send police for local politicians from centre party. (https://scroll.in/article/1027571/how-the-modi-government-has-weaponised-the-ed-to-go-after-indias-opposition https://scroll.in/article/1027571/how-the-modi-government-ha...) Sometimes diff state police with diff party governments fight with each other. (https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/blogs/toi-editorials/stop-politicisation-of-police-forces-it-is-leading-to-grave-fissures-in-indias-law-and-order-system/ https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/blogs/toi-editorials/sto...) And sometimes police will just plant evidence in your email with their work email address as backup email address. They literally jailed bunch of very old left activists with fake charges by hacking their email accounts. (https://www.wired.com/story/modified-elephant-planted-evidence-hacking-police/ https://www.wired.com/story/modified-elephant-planted-eviden...)
  • boruto 4y ago
    After Occam's and Hanlon's razor we have a new - Payments' Razor wherein you opt for a non-compliant, utopic payment method and force this benchmark onto other payment services.
• web108 4y ago
  The OP is not telling the complete story and maligning RazorPay and the current Indian government. Such one-sided posts do not belong here. This co-founder of AltNews has been habitually mocking the Hindu deities and would delete his offending posts whenever caught. His position on religion can be summed up below: If you mock my God, I will ensure that you face the maximum repercussions possible. However, if I mock your God, I will play victim and bring my entire ecosystem together to discredit you. Folks reading this, things are far more complex than made out to be. Read all the sides before reaching a conclusion.
  • ImPostingOnHN 4y ago
    I have not seen the government official who mocked a God (Nupur) face "the maximum repercussions possible" for doing so
    • throwaway_9120 4y ago
      There are real threats to her life. She has been suspended from the party. In the last 1 month, the radical Muslims have already beheaded [1][2] two Hindus for sharing Nupur's comments. Every other week there is a video [3] from a radical Muslim clamoring for her blood. What more repercussions you want for the lady? [1] https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/udaipur/udaipur-tailor-beheaded-for-post-backing-nupur-two-held/articleshow/92531046.cms https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/udaipur/udaipur-tai... [2] https://www.india.com/maharashtra/week-before-udaipur-beheading-a-chemist-was-murdered-for-allegedly-supporting-nupur-sharma-over-social-media-5488211/ https://www.india.com/maharashtra/week-before-udaipur-behead... [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctBA12KlSAo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctBA12KlSAo
      • ImPostingOnHN 4y ago
        There are also threats to the lives of those protesting the government, as well as those who are simply Muslim. In that respect, Nupur is no different from those she attacked, aside from her having exceptional powers to defend herself. As for your question, how about actual, official government consequences for her actions, similar to the ones the government imposes on similar offenses committed by Indian people of Muslim faith?
• snambi 4y ago
  This is not the full set of events as it happened.
• rob32n 4y ago
  Here is some description of Section 91:- Whenever any Court or any officer in charge of a police station considers that the production of any document or other thing is necessary or desirable for the purposes of any investigation, inquiry, trial or other proceeding under this Code by or before such Court or officer, such Court may issue a summons, or such officer a written order, to the person in whose possession or power such document or thing is believed to be, requiring him to attend and produce it, or to produce it, at the time and place stated in the summons or ordeR Section 91 has been used in 2020 as well by Kerala Govt ( state govt) https://m.timesofindia.com/city/thiruvananthapuram/cbi-invokes-rarely-used-sec-91-to-demand-periya-case-diary/amp_articleshow/78394204.cms https://m.timesofindia.com/city/thiruvananthapuram/cbi-invok... It seems author of this post doesn’t understand law. India penal code is fundamental from west laws. Section is used to for “summons to produce” and comes under “process to compel production of things” The post owner simple intention is to harm Razorpay reputation. He also changed the headline of this post from Original post. In this section police office has full authority to produce things and it has been used prior to this case in India to produce financial documents. There is no need of court order in this scenario as per section 91. Summon can issued by a court or police office, by law this both have same power to do so to produce document associated with the case.
• maatrson 4y ago
  Razorpay received a section 91 request and they compliant as per law. Most importantly, section 91 can be issued by police office such as DSP or SHO. This post simple some sort of revenge against razorpay. OP on purpose didn’t mention of section 91 and giving misleading information to YC. OP also making this about politics. This is very old law and used in a lot cases in the past.
• sam0x17 4y ago
  I've always wondered this but what's stopping companies from just not having a physical presence in these countries but still serving them over the internet? Like what can India really do if there is no office in country. Sure they could block the service, but I mean beyond that, is there really anything they can do to compell you to comply with their overbearing demands if you are out of country?
• airocker 4y ago
  For those judging Indian government through these comments should understand that majority of Indians are happy with the government and elections in India are as fair as in the USA :) . The ones who are unhappy with the government and feel disempowered are more motivated to post in a forum where someone would read their grievances.
  • thealig 4y ago
    The "majority" of Indians watch and read from a small set of media outlets, most of them biased pro-government news media which feed only news showing the Indian government and authorities in a positive light while completely leaving out their problems. Basically, news confirming their biases. Critical journalism is pretty much marginal and niche - these outlets are fewer because there are very little incentives. There are a few like NDTV and Dainik bhaskar, who routinely face sanctions by governmental bodies for not sticking to the governmental narrative. Unfortunately Indian society specially due to how educational systems are structured do not encourage any questioning of authority and unable to point out criticisms specially in public Easier to stay happier with blind acceptance of information when you barely know whats happening in detail beyond the governments successes. Even the elections are not without fault, primarily in the working of the Election commission and how free and fair they are (specially in Kashmir) so I doubt your statement about fairness.
    • web108 4y ago
      There is one thing common among Indian left-wingers and right-wingers. Both of them thinks the other wing is a frog-in-the-well.
      • airocker 4y ago
        And humans are wired to think they are better than most others: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20954785/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20954785/
      • thealig 4y ago
        not really what i was trying to say, read the other reply in the thread. the political affiliations are not quite relevant (to some degree) as far as working and relationship between government and state apparatus and journalistic outlets are concerned.
• msravi 4y ago
  Ok, providing a little context here about how this played out. 1. A group of Hindu women petition a court for the right to (continue) worship at (what is now) the Gyanvapi mosque 2. The court orders that a survey of the mosque be carried out to determine if there is a historical locus standii for the petition 3. Videos of the survey reveal what appears to be a Shiva linga in a pond used for ablutions 4. Heated TV debates on prime time about the find. In one such debate a muslim cleric makes derogatory references to Shiva. In response a spokesperson of the ruling BJP, Nupur Sharma, says Prophet Mohammed married a girl of 6 and consumated the relationship when she was 9. 5. Zubair Mohammed of Altnews, begins a tweetstorm against Nupur Sharma and the channel for hurting muslim sentiments by making derogatory references to the prophet 6. Nupur Sharma says she is receiving threats due to Zubair's call and goes into hiding. Police on the lookout to arrest her for offending religious sentiments 7. Several videos posted demanding that she be killed and processions with "Sar tan se juda" slogans taken out (separate head from body) 8. Several also post "IStandWithNupur" in her support on social media. One such person is a tailor named Khanaiyya in Udaipur. 9. Khanaiyya is beheaded for standing in support of Nupur Sharma. The murderers record the killing on video and also threaten that the prime minister will meet the same fate 10. Many see this as a result of Zubair's call for action against Nupur and pull up old tweets of his with derogatory comments against Hindu practices demanding his arrest 11. Zubair is arrested and Altnews financials come under the scanner. Police use section 91 to obtain details of Altnews financing via Razorpay
  • random_ind_dude 4y ago
    A bit more context: The Gyanvapi mosque is older than the United States and the current controversy has been stirred up by Hindu nationalists targeting India's Muslim minority. Nupur Sharma's statements created an international controversy for India with several Gulf countries demanding a public apology from India. Zubair was arrested within days of a complaint being raised on a tweet he made in 2018, while Nupur Sharma hasn't been arrested yet, even after causing an international incident. IMO, Razorpay would have been forced to give up the data, Section 91 or not, since the current government doesn't really care about due process. The link below gives more details about the tweet that led to Zubair's arrest. https://www.business-standard.com/article/current-affairs/twitter-handle-that-flagged-alt-news-mohd-zubair-s-2018-tweet-deleted-122063000187_1.html https://www.business-standard.com/article/current-affairs/tw... Excerpts from the above article: > According to the FIR, Zubair had used a screengrab of an old Hindi movie which showed an image of a hotel, with its board reading 'Hanuman hotel' instead of 'Honeymoon hotel'. > In his tweet, Zubair had written: "BEFORE 2014: Honeymoon Hotel. After 2014: Hanuman Hotel". > The complainant -- Twitter user @balajikijaiin, tagging the Delhi Police had written: "Linking our God Hanuman Ji with Honeymoon is a direct insult of Hindus because he is a brahmchari. Kindly take action against this." > Noting the complaint, the police in the FIR said that the words and pictures used by Zubair in the tweet against a particular community were highly provocative and more than sufficient to incite feelings of hatred among people which can be detrimental for maintenance of public tranquility in the society.
• telekinetic 4y ago
  Certainly Razorpay didnt act in the best interest of the consumers. It didn't pursue the legal options it had. Leaving politics aside, this doesnt seem to be a good thing.
• known 4y ago