27 ms·

“The joy of sharing has been driven from me“

185 points by omnibrain 4y ago

whywhywhywhy 4y ago
I feel bad for him, but really the problem is he’s made a directorial mistake and it looks like the only point it’s gonna click is when the sales numbers hit. Will he realize his mistaken then or will he continue to blame the customer?
- poszlem 4y ago
  I could not agree more. A lot of game producers get this arrogant approach of: "Making games would be such awesome job if it wasn't for those pesky gamers". The question here is: "Is this a really innovative graphical design that will get praised by future generations but is misunderstood now" or "Is this just a bad decision that the creator is unwilling to own". I tend to think it's the latter. Ultimately the sales will tell. Obviously I'm not defending the minority of insane comments made my mentally unwell people, but it does feel to me that the rage-quit was prompted more by the general negative sentiment people expressed about the looks of the game rather than by the personal attacks. We have seen the same thing happen to Star Wars where the legitimate criticism was painted as toxicity of the fandom. To quote another HN comment I saved recently: > “Ultimately, the reason some people get upset when a series changes isn’t because the new game is new, but because the old games get their future cut off. Getting a sequel you don’t want closes the door more definitively than creating a new IP. Nobody wants to see the corpse of something they love puppeted around when it could just be laid to rest.”
  - eduction 4y ago
    > Ultimately the sales will tell. If you believe games are at all art, then they cannot ultimately be judged either by commercial or critical success, or even by whether they please their creator. There is something utterly subjective and nondeterminant in the evaluation of art. Obviously, as humans we tend to evaluate the “success” of art on its long term impact. Commercial and critical failures in the short term can and have become treasured as masterpieces in the long term, and bestselling beloved work can turn out to be forgotten quickly.
  - sleepybrett 4y ago
    > “Ultimately, the reason some people get upset when a series changes isn’t because the new game is new, but because the old games get their future cut off. Getting a sequel you don’t want closes the door more definitively than creating a new IP. Nobody wants to see the corpse of something they love puppeted around when it could just be laid to rest.” Except in this case, my understanding is that this isn't even true. This game is an alternate sequel to MI2 (which is widely beloved), throwing out the story from MI3 (and maybe Tales? Many fans did not like the story direction of MI3. Perhaps because Ron didn't work on it.. I didn't mind it). So I guess in that case, for the really opinionated MI1&2 fans, this is another bite at the apple.
  - generalk 4y ago
    > The question here is: "Is this a really innovative graphical design that > will get praised by future generations but is misunderstood now" or "Is this > just a bad decision that the creator is unwilling to own". I tend to think > it's the latter. Ultimately the sales will tell. The question here is not "should people like a thing," it's "why are people such assholes?" To quote Ron Gilbert's linked post: > Play it or don't play it but don't ruin it for everyone else. It sure seems like this is a fantastic example of the Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory [0]: nobody would speak so awfully to Ron Gilbert if they were leaning over his shoulder watching the trailer. [0]: https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19/green-blackboards-and-other-anomalies https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19/green-blackboa...
  - vlunkr 4y ago
    I'm sorry, but getting upset about a sequel you didn't want is an immature and entitled attitude. This is a sequel from the original creator, not some corporate cash-in, what else do you want? Ron Gilbert is not a mind reader, he can't deliver on 1000 contradictory fan expectations. This is the game they wanted to make, that's their right, if you don't like it just move along.
  - dylan-m 4y ago
    > We have seen the same thing happen to Star Wars where the legitimate criticism was painted as toxicity of the fandom. Hold on a minute here. Yes, the racist assholes got more attention than they deserved. But Rise of the Skywalker was thrown together by a bunch of marketing executives looking through all that “legitimate criticism”, making a big checklist, and feeding it into their lifeless movie factory to create a giant wish fulfillment fantasy for all those “real fans” who were upset someone would dare to shake up their stale, predictable franchise. It was a terrible movie. Lessons: Disney is a cancer, but also people on the internet, as plentiful as they are, have no idea what they want.
    - bena 4y ago
      This is one area where I think Nintendo and Apple really excel at. They hardly, if ever, cave to user "wants", because they understand that often, the user has no fucking clue what they actually want. It's why they manage to succeed despite initial opinions being so against them. It's because often the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Looking at a thing can only tell you so much, it's only when you are able to actually experience the thing will you be able to judge whether it is good or not.
      - norwalkbear 4y ago
        It's not true in the case of Nintendo. They always actively get JAPANESE feedback for games like Zelda and Pokemon. As western and eastern tastes diverge, you'll see bigger issues. It's one of the reasons Square Enix just sold all their western studios.
      - Wowfunhappy 4y ago
        Users often don't know what they want, but they frequently know better than rando companies. Apple's strategy worked during the era of Steve Jobs because Steve Jobs was miraculously good at intuiting what users want. Since his death, Apple has lost that ability. See: The Butterfly Keyboard, the Touchbar, the 2013 Mac Pro. Apple's recent successes have been things consumers very much said they wanted: iPhones with larger screens, Macs with better performance and incredible battery life. Nintendo does seem to have some leaders with Steve Jobs's talent, but I'd argue they're more hit or miss than he was. The Wii U didn't go so well, and the Wii—while an initial success—was ultimately kind of mixed.
- bogantech 4y ago
  Disagreeing with the art direction is one thing but people are going beyond constructive criticism by being toxic and throwing personal attacks.
  - aliswe 4y ago
    Not to pry, but do you have any examples of this?
    - oneepic 4y ago
      Ron mentioned he deleted some personal attack comments, so some of the closest examples are gone.
    - kemayo 4y ago
      The comments on the linked article feature a number of examples of this, despite already having had the worse stuff moderated-out. For instance: > You are an abhorrent and miserable human being, Ron Gilbert. You should be ashamed of yourself. One can only hope that you retire from the industry and never return. Which, you know, not cool.
    - alophawen 4y ago
      In the article being discussed, Ron writes: > I'm shutting down comments. People are just being mean and I'm having to delete personal attack comments. These comments is what you are requesting. Browse them using wayback machine: https://web.archive.org/web/*/https://grumpygamer.com/rtmi_trailer https://web.archive.org/web/*/https://grumpygamer.com/rtmi_t...
    - bombcar 4y ago
      Go read the HN comments, and then imagine what a cesspool like Youtube or Reddit would do if HN itself was that "down" on it. Personally I think it's a better art style than Tumbleweed, but I had issues with that game's story.
    - blktiger 4y ago
      Some references can be found here: https://kotaku.com/return-monkey-island-ron-gilbert-art-style-angry-fans-1849128586 https://kotaku.com/return-monkey-island-ron-gilbert-art-styl...
- generalk 4y ago
  "continue to blame the customer?" He's never said that folks were wrong, or blamed anyone for anything. Seems to me like he just wanted folks to not be shitty. Take, for example, this comment by someone calling themselves _Proud Retro Fascist_: > Nice attempt at silencing critics. The game will fail because it is > objectively hideous and you will only have yourself to blame. > > Inthe end all you will have achieved is killing off Monkey Island once more. > This time permanently. > > All you had to do was make a game with an art style that appeals to > everyone, whatever it might be. Instead, you opted for the most repugnant, > revolting and hideous TRASH art style that anybody has ever bared witness to > in a video game. You must be out of your mind. > > All said, try hiring good artists next time... if there is a next time, that > is. > > RIP MONKEY ISLAND I wouldn't blame anyone for being upset after receiving this kind of vile commentary "Objectively hideous;" "repugnant, revolting and hideous TRASH art style." There's nothing constructive or even reasonable there, it's purely nastiness for nastiness' sake. Stay strong, Ron Gilbert, don't let the assholes get you down.
  - djur 4y ago
    > All you had to do was make a game with an art style that appeals to everyone, whatever it might be It beggars belief that someone could write this sincerely and not realize how absurd it is. "All you had to do was make something perfect."
    - 4cao 4y ago
      I understood it differently, to mean: "All you had to do was make a game with an art style that does not get in the way [of enjoying the game], whatever it might be." I think this interpretation makes sense, since the original game is primarily story-driven.
  - Tarsul 4y ago
    Yeah, that's a very harsh comment. Nonetheless, there is something to be learnt here: If anything, the comments of the fans show that this artstyle alienates many of the fans. So, if for example the artstyle would've been showed at the very start of the development, then the developers could've listened to the fans and changed it. But everyone's in a tough spot now because development is nearly finished (game is planned for this year) and it would be too late to change course. As such, Ron Gilbert can only do one thing: Buckle up, release the game and let it be played by those who are not alienated by the artstyle. Maybe it will charm new fans even more; maybe not. Who knows. However, it certainly is an artstyle that is not "universal". E.g. AAA developers usually refine their main character so much that he appeals more or less universally, they want someone who is liked by everyone. They don't want a main character that is only liked by 50% of the target audience. BUT! This comes with the caveat that these games might be overoptimized for the mainstream and thus being somehow boring. That's why I love what the artists and Ron Gilbert did, even though I am torn on the style myself. Btw. I myself was even more alienated by the artstyle of Broken Age (so much that I never played it) and that was a game where I even invested money in. However, I never could've thrown words at Tim Schafer. And neither on Ron Gilbert, for that matter.
- grogenaut 4y ago
  Could you summarize what you feel the mistake is? Normally I'd RTFA but in this case it's a lot of arguing in threads and I'm missing context.
  - kemayo 4y ago
    Some people don't like the art style chosen for the new game, which is pretty stylized. Some of them are being extremely (vocally) shitty about it.
- soneca 4y ago
  No, that’s not the problem. Not the problem that’s relevant to this discussion anyway. The problem is that people are either relentlessly telling him that they didn’t like the art or hatefully attacking him for choosing that art style. Hateful is what made him decide to close comments and not share stuff anymore. But relentless, even if polite, criticism also takes a toll. And art style quality is subjective. I, for one, don’t think he made a mistake. If it does hurt sales, it is an objective evidence that it was a mistake commercially speaking. Which is just one dimension. He might still be happy with his decision. Regardless of sales effect though, I think people feel entitled to be heard by him. They are not happy only with voting with their wallets, or just telling friends that they didn’t like the art style, that are making a point of going to him pointing fingers that he messed up. That’s not fine in my view even if they do not use hateful words, which a minority does. But the majority is still pointing fingers at him. For me Ron is doing the right thing in managing all this. Stop sharing stuff, close comments, go back working on it silence. If, because of that, the game is a commercial failure, so be it. It is his risk to take. People are acting outraged no because Ron is screaming rude things back to them, because he is not. People are outraged that he just won’t change the art style at this point. That he is not pulling a Sonic on this. And I think the behavior of those people demanding change is just silly. And dangerous when potentialzed by the scale of the internet. So good for Ron going back to silence. It will be better for him and the team. And, I think, better for the game as well.
- norwalkbear 4y ago
  Exactly. Top Gun 2 is great example of understanding the audience. it was a love letter to the fans. Gilbert made it all about himself with no awareness of what other people thought. That's his biggest mistake. He keeps saying he making the game HE wants to make. He really doesn't care about the fans, and they noticed. I strongly suspect it will only get uglier between the deep monkey island fans who kept the brand alive and Gilbert. If Ron wants to make art, then make art. But Monkey Island was never art for the sake of art. A far more successful revival that pleased the fans was Broken Sword 5.
olivermarks 4y ago
Good for Ron. He created the game, not the lookey loo's
vessenes 4y ago
I don’t get the hate- I like the style of the new graphics, and I think they are a sensitive updating of what’s good about monkey island’s original graphical vibe. I guess I am the target nostalgia demographic though; 70s latchkey kid. I fully intend to play this with my kids and enjoy the shit out of it.
- ohCh6zos 4y ago
  To me it looks very similar to Alegria corporate art which kind of turns me off, but he should do what he wants and I have no reason to think I should give him my feedback.
  - kemayo 4y ago
    I've seen people making that comparison, and it feels off to me. The defining element of that "corporate" art style is that it's really flat -- abstract figures with minimal details and bold colors. By contrast, Return seems to have a lot of detail -- it's just expressed through a blocky, almost papercraft aesthetic. The level of specificity and caricature it's showing is honestly pretty opposed to the general goals of the "corporate" style. (None of this is to say there's anything wrong with not liking Return's art style, of course. Taste is subjective, etc etc. I just feel it's a poor comparison.)
- bsder 4y ago
  It's not that I don't like the graphic style--from looking at the trailer I don't like the style execution. I think the style is "ugly", but that could work well--especially in a game about pirates. The problem is that the backgrounds and animation look "cheap phone game". And that's not going to make people happy. The worst part is that I suspect that this is intentional--and that's what is REALLY pissing both sides off. Ron Gilbert probably wants this to be playable on lower end tablets and phones since phone revenue generally dwarfs PC revenue--so getting called out on this is not going to go over well. By the same token, the rabid fanbase is PC centric and is looking at a game that sure looks like it has made significant compromises for phones--they're going to be more than a bit upset about that. To top it off, Gilbert is used to getting nothing but positive reception and now is getting slammed. Furthermore, the project is too far along to actually do anything that might be able to mitigate the criticism. Whoops.
atwood22 4y ago
I don't understand the outrage at this art style. Granted, I've never played any of the Monkey Island games, and have no emotional attachment to the content. To me, the art style seems very similar to a Cartoon Network cartoon, and that may have broad appeal to kids today. Like I kind of understand why people are upset: this thing you loved 32 years ago is being vandalized in your eyes. However, you're really old now, your prefrontal cortex should be fully developed, so get over it.
- the_only_law 4y ago
  I'm not sure if it's even an exclusively nostalgia thing. Over the past few years I've seen a lot of complaining around art style changes. Notably the Civ V -> Civ VI art style change pissed a lot of people off. Personally I loved the game, but a lot of series veterans didn't even bother to try it.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
    In the other thread about this, someone brought up the colloquially named "Zelda Effect". It is most evident when reviewing Wind Waker, which used cartoony cell-shaded graphics: contemporary comments featured quite a lot of vitriol over that decision, but the game is now fondly remembered as one of the best entrants in the series.
    - bombcar 4y ago
      Deep down almost everyone is "conservative" - they want what they had yesterday again today, so any change to art style, etc, is already on a back-foot. But in the end, the good things stand out. The reason the CD-i Zelda games are not remembered fondly is not really because of the art style, that's just an easy way to rip on them.
      - mikkergp 4y ago
        The game developer is basically taking all the hate that people are really directing at a society that doesn't value the same things they do anymore. I thought SNES Zelda and Final Fantasy were the best, but I didn't threaten the developers when they moved to 3d.
hprotagonist 4y ago
I could give two shits about the art style. I just can't stand the worry that he's going to grimdark the storyline. It is important to me that guybrush and elaine and the gang don't go that way.
- RajT88 4y ago
  I don't imagine it's that kind of game (the series thus far hasn't been), but at the same time I like the idea that we're seeing a mature Guybrush reflecting on his adventures and mistakes in life. At this point I don't really mind what direction they take at the end of the day. I love the characters, and just want to see where they end up. I do hope we get another game where they play with Claymation style animation, though.
  - hprotagonist 4y ago
    the crux of my worry is this: the ending of MI2 compared to the ending of a non-gilbert MI3, and I love MI3.
superb-owl 4y ago
The vitriol in this article is really hard to read. Watching a creator get attacked liked that is sad. I want to say something snarky like "that's what you get for having anonymous unmoderated comments" but honestly I just wish we could not be assholes.
- hgsgm 4y ago
  Guess what happens if 99.9% of people are not assholes.
victorclf 4y ago
Seems he just found out how most people in the Internet don't produce anything worthwhile and yet feel entitled to bash everyone's else hard work.
chomp 4y ago
Gamers are the most entitled consumer group I've ever seen. It's astounding. Someone wants to create something, and there's just so much hate and negativity on something that people didn't even pay for. I've seen it on HN also. Someone creates a thing, and then people pour out of the woodwork to lump horrible criticism. No one is asking for blind praise for what they create, but surely there's a middle ground between blind praise and mob bullying?
- shaky-carrousel 4y ago
  That is what was going through my mind while reading it. Entitled brats. They are a bunch of entitled brats.
  - RajT88 4y ago
    You can imagine a bunch of nasty teenagers posting stuff like that, but fun fact: Most MI fans are likely to be over 30. (Many over 40)
- bombcar 4y ago
  It's more than gamers as you notice, it's the whole 'self-reinforcing internet cycle' - if the first reaction is X, that will be amplified tremendously as everyone piles on to agree with X. This goes for both for and against, but against is usually easier. Famous examples include Dropbox (here), iPod (Slashdot), etc.
  - manmal 4y ago
    The Dropbox thread was not super negative, I just looked at it again. If your product is useful, there will be positive feedback. Haters gonna hate, that’s always been the case.
- zac23or 4y ago
  > Gamers are the most entitled consumer group I've ever seen True, but Some open source communities are good candidates for "most entitled consumers". > I've seen it on HN also I will ever remember the launch of Dropbox here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8863 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8863
adamrezich 4y ago
I like Ron Gilbert. I don't like all of the games he's worked on but I like most of them. I think it's great that he's making this new game and he's doing it how he wants to. I will likely check it out when it's released and there's a good chance that I'll enjoy it. all of that said, I have a hard time understanding this situation. when you've been making games for decades and you've watched the Internet grow from nothing in that time, how can you possibly release a trailer for your upcoming game showing an art style that you don't have to hire a focus testing company to tell you that the Internet will knee-jerk react negatively to... without knowing that there would be The Usual, Expected Amount of "toxic" backlash? how could you not see this coming, and why would you then go on to take it personally? I fully understand the human angle where like, if I released a trailer for a game I was working on tomorrow, and for whatever reason the Internet Hate Machine started churning against me, I would have a very hard time handling it, because I have never been in a situation like that before, and the human mind is ill-equipped to deal with the onslaught of criticism, both fair and over-the-top, that is just part and parcel of putting things on the Internet these days. in the past ~15 years of the indie game scene there have been countless examples of this exact scenario playing out time and time again, and I have complete and total empathy for anyone in that situation—it has to be hard. but this is a guy who's made both games that are considered classics, as well as games that have been critically panned. why is he taking the perfectly predictable response to the art style shown in this trailer so personally? the only conclusion I can reach—and it's a mighty cynical one—is that this must be part of the planned PR cycle for the game. the game was announced earlier this year, as being planned to be released later this year, meaning that at the time of that announcement, the art style was almost certainly already settled upon... yet the decision was made to withhold from revealing the art style at that point in time. now, awhile later, we get a trailer that shows and demonstrates the art style. again, the Internet's reaction writ large was wholly predictable. now Ron Gilbert says this wholly predictable reaction makes him sad and makes him not want to share any more of the game until release, and various "journalists" and commentators in the space get to write up think-pieces about the event heralding this act—not sharing any more of your game until it's released—as one of moral bravery in the face of the innately toxic and reprehensibly evil Internet Comment Section saying mean things about the latest game from a respected and celebrated creator of some of the most cherished classics in the history of computer gaming. Entitled Toxic Gamers get shamed for being Toxic and Entitled and Gamers, as though we haven't learned anything over the past 20 years about how anonymous comment sections inherently work in the everyone-has-an-Internet-connected-smartphone-in-their-pocket-at-all-times contemporary society we now live in. blogs get something juicy to write about. everyone wins! is there any reason for me to not believe that some version of the above is what happened here? or am I completely off-base here and perhaps Ron Gilbert is just mentally stuck in the 90s, where your publisher sends promotional prerelease screenshots to a gaming magazine and you don't have to directly see any criticism, as someone else at the company reads all the (e- and snail) mail for you? or something else? tl;dr I can't understand getting mad at the Internet for being the Internet in 2022, it will never get better, if anything it will only get worse—this is the price we collectively had to pay when we decided everyone should be online at all times.
mattiperakyla 4y ago
gamers are psychos
- l30n4da5 4y ago
  I like to think it is more just a very vocal minority that are psychos.
icu 4y ago
I think you got to discount points of view from the perspective of how valuable their perspective is to your goal. The problem with social media and open forums is that it’s not obvious and takes time to figure out who’s who. Having said that, it seems a little childish to me that Ron just shut down the haters. I think that there might be a bit of his ego attached to the outcome versus the process. I can only speculate that perhaps he wanted recognition and adulation for this bold choice and was hurt when feedback didn’t match expectations. Sure people might be rude about it, but it seems that there is clearly a market for the retro pixelated aesthetic, so why not give people what they want if his goal is to satisfy the fan base and continue the story? I have no doubt the story, set, characters and jokes will be great. I guess the comment asking for Ron to do a Sonic might have been too on the nose for him. I think that any creator has to reconcile that if they create for others, their art becomes something more than just theirs, like a sort of reflexive co-creation. Seems to me the best artists understand this while not letting it stifle their creativity.
- pessimizer 4y ago
  > it seems a little childish to me that Ron just shut down the haters. Maybe, but there are too many comments for a flat page like that to be useful anyway (other than the first 50 or so comments.) Nothing of value was lost.
karaterobot 4y ago
The healthiest thing for a creative person to do is ignore reviews, and not pay attention to comments about your work. Mentally, and emotionally, and creatively, I mean. Your job is to make things that other people can appreciate, or not, but you don't need to listen to them if you don't want to. Active community engagement is a fairly recent phenomenon, and it's a marketing technique, not an artistic one. I'm sure it works for some people, but don't feel like you need to do it if it causes you pain, and not, by any means, if it makes it harder to do your job. It may feel necessary in 2022 to engage with fans and build a personal brand, but go ahead and audit the creators you really respect, and how many of them do this. Some do, I'm sure, but some don't.
- kemayo 4y ago
  I think Gilbert got hit hard by this because he's been running this personal blog since 2004, and suddenly getting a flood of shitty comments can't be fun.
  - WorldMaker 4y ago
    Yeah, up until Return's announcement, it was a very quiet old school blog with a tiny readership (raises hand), one of very few left. It survived a long time without getting faced with modern internet communities and Reddit/HN hugs of death.
mromanuk 4y ago
Monkey Island was cutting edge technology when I first played it as a child in the early 1990s, I fell in love with it. Why would anyone expect that Ron would create a pixel-art, retro-style game? Ron articulated this line of reasoning. He is the creator and has every right to select the style that he desires.
- fouadf 4y ago
  Agreed, although I think the genre is mostly popular as pixel art retro style, especially that he made thimbleweed park that way.. that's probably why they wanted a different art style. Personally I think Ron is an artist and I'll buy whatever he's selling.
bob1029 4y ago
I feel even in gaming, the customer is always right at the end of the day. Unless we are talking about making games just for the sake of it & then throwing them away, but I suspect not. That said, most of the time it is better to not interact with the customer until you are certain it is the right time. Transparency seems like more of a liability than anything here. I strongly prefer the stealth mode development pattern, assuming you do have a clear & consistent vision relative to your market & customers. A lot of human feedback is bullshit, so avoid it until you actually need it. Most people don't know what they like until they are 20 hours deep into it. Don't give them time to build up ridiculous expectations relative to your product. Think about the way EA games launched Apex Legends. I would prefer if every game studio went down that path.
- kabdib 4y ago
  > I feel even in gaming, the customer is always right at the end of the day. There are customers who are most definitely not right. The kind that cheat in online games, lie about it, dox you when you catch them. The kind of customer that tries to break into your systems or DDOS you. The kind that try to steal from you and your partners, or that harass other players, or that post pornography to your forums. The kind that make bots or thousands of fake accounts. The kind that build phishing sites and steal other customers' credentials, empty out their wallets and sell all of their assets. It's a small proportion of customers that do this, but that's still a large enough number that it's a big deal. (Kindly don't respond, "Well, all you have to do is put technical measures in place to prevent all of this." You need to have been in the trenches dealing with them before you can have a valid opinion on mitigations). The customer is not always right.
  - bob1029 4y ago
    > Then you have not dealt with real customers. This is a very bold assumption. Do you want to try some nuance here?
    - kabdib 4y ago
      Sure. I'll edit that down a bit. I have a fair amount of experience dealing with the type of customer who is not great, and who would be great to get rid of. A net positive for everyone, if it were possible. Most customers are great. Some are not. Some are essentially (or demonstrably) criminals. At scale, it's a huge problem and very difficult to solve. The platitude "the customer is always right" is a fine principle until you need to deal with the real world of fraud, criminal activity and harassment.
stuckinhell 4y ago
A lot of creatives have a hard time understanding the product side of art. Games are far more products like movies than they are "art". There have been a bunch of recent examples lately that showcases the minds of masses. Spiderman No Way Home did supremely well by giving the masses what they wanted, and not straying too far from the marvel formula. Sonic the Hedgehog Movie had a awful original art direction. The fans complained and the director reversed course, and now its a beloved and highly rated movie. Top Gun 2 is another great example. The tone, direction, spirit of the original movie is captured supremely well and is on track for a billion dollars. Pixar's Lightyear is a disappointment at the box office. Honestly who wanted a "realistic" version of Buzz from Toy Story. The tone, spirit, and art direction are too different. I think Ron made a horrible directorial mistake, and while he shouldn't be attacked for it. He does deserve criticism, and people should be allowed to voice their dislike for a product and its direction. As people on other sites have mentioned, this whole project has the feeling of the George Lucas Star Wars Prequels. George Lucas needed some honest feedback, and collaboration with other people like Kasdan. Ron Gilbert should have gotten some opinions from the original Monkey Island artists/Lucas Arts Crew.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
  I don't think anyone is arguing that the art direction can't be criticized[0], just that Ron doesn't deserve abuse for it. Unfortunately "Gamers" includes a group of extremely entitled and vocal internet asshats who frequently do things like hurl death threats at developers for missing deadlines. Now they have chosen to harass a legend who shaped the very genre because he has offended their aesthetic sensibilities. It's ridiculous and no one should have to put up with that crap. [0] honestly I'm also a bit put off by it, but that might just be because it is unfamiliar, which isn't the same thing as bad. Besides, since I consider graphics to be one of the least important things in games I don't think it will affect my enjoyment that much.
- regentbowerbird 4y ago
  > Games are far more products like movies than they are "art" Says whom? You demonstrate your points by showing that blockbusters make money, which says nothing about whether they are art. They're entirely different dimensions of the same work, and hard to compare. Obviously the accounting department will have a different point of view than the creative director. You're also arguing that people making new films on an existing franchise should stick to giving the fans what they want. But who's to say the fans even know what they want? They might not care, they might be mistaken, they might misremember things. For example, people clamoring for World of Warcraft Classic or a back-to-the-roots Sonic game back in the day weren't really hoping for a product per se, but rather to go back to a time when the product was more culturally relevant (and they were younger). A new direction can also capture a new audience, which might make fans negligible. For instance the Star Wars prequel are still divisive but a large, younger portion of the fandom likes them very much. And what fans are we talking about anyway? You give Spider-man as an example. But there have been thousand of pieces of Spider-man media, with wildly different art styles and tones. Which one is "what the fans want"? Disney went with the Marvel formula precisely because it's a lowest-common denominator style of film, accessible to non-fans. And finally another obvious problem with your thesis is that nothing new can be made if it is required to give to the masses what they want for sure. Almost by definition, it is unknown whether any new concept, style, tone, or property are what people want. At the same time it is known that the public at least somewhat values originality, so companies take risks and release films such as Pirates of the Caribbean or games like Assassin's Creed.
rvieira 4y ago
I played the original ones and I would have preferred a pixel art closer to the original. That being said, I subscribe what Ron and many people here said. If you don't like it, don't buy it. There's no need for all vitriol. I will buy it the same, since for me Monkey Island was always about much more than the graphics. On top of everything, this is the actual _creator_ of all the games and stories' vision. It's not like it's some knock-off copy or money-grabbing reboot. If this is how he imagined the new Monkey Island we should at least be happy there's another one!
- izacus 4y ago
  Pixel art like which of the originals? Monkey Island 3 and 4 had nothing remotely resembling pixel art and were still beautiful.
  - rvieira 4y ago
    I was talking about "Secret" and "LeChuck's Revenge". When "Curse" came out I was "too cool" for computer games. Now I'm back at being "lame" :)
    - detritus 4y ago
      Entirely off-topic, but this resonates so much for me - I think I went entirely off computer games for about three years, peaking around the age of 18. I left the world of the Amiga and then later got a PC for Uni and slipped into an entirely different gaming world, running at 5x the clockspeed. On school holidays I'd come back to an ever-failing disk collection, to the point I only had a shareware game called Galaxy Wars (I think?) and an install of SimAnt (on a 20Mb HD, lol), by which point it was clear that the Amiga was truly dead in the water! If there's one thing I'm looking forward to with this new MI, it's the updated theme tune, which sounds glorious. It WILL be my ringtone again!
  - lentil_soup 4y ago
    They were quite pretty but Ron Gilbert wasn't involved in MI3 and 4. That's why this is a bit like a branch off MI2
xwkd 4y ago
Hatred is a badge of honor for an artist. You’ve created something that stirs the passions. Would you prefer indifference? If you care so much about the opinions expressed by your audience, then maybe take a step back and look at the collective sentiment. This is an opportunity for growth and reflection, not to cry in some corner like a child who’s taken his ball and gone home. You’re a professional, Ron. What would a professional do with this feedback?
floren 4y ago
The behavior of the commenters is pretty abhorrent. It feels awful to make something you're excited about, put it out there, and get shit on by the people you thought you were making it for! Now, there is something about the animation style that made me think "oh, this feels kind of cheap". Something in the loose-limbed and kind of weightless movement of the characters. I had to think about it for a while, then I realized it felt like the character animations in the "Fallout Shelter" mobile game (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhOM8dGuHgM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhOM8dGuHgM) and I guess the association with a microtransaction-based mobile game made me think "cheap". But I'm an adult, so I don't go and tell the creator he should kill himself just because my brain made this weird connection. Criticism is valid and important, but I think too many people watched those stupid AVGN videos in their formative years and got a warped view of what criticism should look like.
- scotty79 4y ago
  I wonder what's worse... Seeing people hating on what you put out, or seeing exactly zero interest in it. Seeing your updates and comments recieve no responses as if there was noone on the other end.
MBCook 4y ago
GamerGate was just a preview.
Beltalowda 4y ago
> Gamers are the most entitled consumer group I've ever seen. It's astounding. Someone wants to create something, and there's just so much hate and negativity on something that people didn't even pay for. I sometimes end up on Steam and the like when I search for "some-game pass level-I-find-difficult", or "some-game Linux". Almost every single thread I've seen there starts with someone asking a fairly reasonable question ("I'm having trouble with X, any tips?", "Are the developers planning to release this game on Linux? Thanks!") and quickly devolving in to a complete shitshow ("you're a lazy fake gamer if you can't pass X, it's so easy!", "lol Linux only for autistic nerds"). To say I'm not a fan of the "gamer community" is an understatement. I'm sure the majority of people who play games are nice folks, but the online spaces are dominates by obnoxious loudmouths more than any other community I've seen. Now, I have to admit I'm also not wildly impressed by the art style of the new MI game, but you know, it's Ron's game; I can take it or leave it... (and since I'm fairly sure the writing will be as good as the earlier games I don't even mind all that much, as long as it doesn't have the horrendous controls from the 4th and 5th games I'll be happy, furthermore, I'd rather people try something new instead of merely regurgitating what was done 30 years ago, even if I'm personally not a huge fan of it).
ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
It's not just gamers. The Internet has spawned a culture of "no consequences for letting your Id come out to play." If I walk up to Big Bad John, and call him a rude name, he will knock my teeth out. That's called "immediate negative feedback." Consequence immediately follows action. On the Internet (although this kind of thing predates the Internet. The Internet just commoditized it), this negative feedback loop is removed. The response is just more bad words, and a good troll learns to actually savor this type of response (I know of what I speak. I was once ... not so well-behaved ... on the Internet –even pre-WWW). Positive feedback is treated as "weak," or "syrupy" (to be fair, a lot of it is like Cute Overload[0]), and folks who try to remain positive are usually relentlessly attacked. I know of this, because I try to remain positive, and not "go there," when confronted by negativity. I assume I come across as "Snotty"[1]. Better than the alternative; believe you me... When I hear people defending extreme hate jockeys, they always say "[S]He's just saying what everyone is thinking." There's a reason that we don't say everything we think. [0] https://twitter.com/cuteoverload?lang=en https://twitter.com/cuteoverload?lang=en [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pP_gV2cWntg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pP_gV2cWntg (James Hong's greatest role).
- cptnapalm 4y ago
  A Robert E. Howard quote I like: Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- pessimizer 4y ago
  > If I walk up to Big Bad John, and call him a rude name, he will knock my teeth out. Big Bad John is a strawman, because if Big Bad John was abusing his children or beating his wife, I wouldn't confront him either. I'd call the police. It doesn't reflect at all the legitimacy or illegitimacy of the criticism. Also, we should probably get over that pretense that anonymity ends brutal criticism. Plenty of people are happy to sign pretty brutal criticism, or even to make a brand out of it. The thing that it's easy to do is to attack "haters" or "cynics" because they don't really exist. They're what happens when people define other people's motivations by the effect on them personally. Somebody hates me? They're a "hater." Somebody says that something I think will work will definitely not work? They're a "cynic" that doesn't believe anything can improve and hate people who have retained the ability to dream. The same people leaving comments on this game encouraging the designers to kill themselves will agree completely with this reasoning, because it has very little content.
fxtentacle 4y ago
Oh wow. Let's hope the old saying "there is no bad publicity" turns out true and at the very least, all this outrage will make everyone aware that there's a new Monkey Island.
WBrentWilliams 4y ago
Going meta (note the lack of capitalization and insert your own joke here) I would say that the stress of running comments on your own blog, in any form, costs more most of the time as compared to sending the comments to places like HN, Reddit, and the like. I can see where size of concern means that you engage and host comments on your own site. However, it also seems to be that running a comment space in service of sharing something made and/or selling a product is the equivalent of painting a wall a nice, pristine white in a highly visible and accessible place and then getting mad at that same wall getting tagged with graffiti. In other words, I am sorry that the Ron Glibert got burned, and I sympathize, but it seems to me that YouTube (where the video is hosted) runs a perfectly serviceable comments site that you can turn on and off. No need to run your own (unless you want to).
frazbin 4y ago
The art style feels like an homage to Grim Fandango, one of my favorite adventure games. I don't understand the hate at all.
- rasz 4y ago
  The only thing in common with Grim Fandango is universal lack of human noses on all the characters.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
DoneWithAllThat 4y ago
Something I’ve increasingly felt is that nobody should feel like they’re under any obligation to read comments on what they do or replies to what they say. In the days before the internet the options for direct feedback to an author or creator were limited and often the author or creator could or would just ignore them. It was considered a good idea! Now people have things like forums for their games or comments on their articles and for some reason I don’t understand feel compelled to engage with them. They shouldn’t. It’s okay to just make what you want to make or write what you want to write and ignore any and all response to it. If your works are valuable and enjoyed then great, if not so be it. But subjecting yourself to the most obsessive and neurotic segment of your audience is just a recipe for misery. There’s little to no benefit to it. You don’t owe anything to anyone.
- wiceo 4y ago
  I agree. People who have a gripe or criticism are more inclined to comment than a person who enjoys the product. It reminds me of the old saying "assholes always advertise." It's best to ignore or take those comments with a grain of salt. However, that's often easier said than done.
- nicbou 4y ago
  Sometimes the criticism is delivered directly to you, in a community you care about. It's one thing to know that someone on the internet dislikes you. It's another to see someone do it within earshot at your favourite pub. People on the internet make the sort of quips you'd never make within slapping distance of the subject. They do it where the subject hangs out.
branon 4y ago
People don't like the art style. There's even precedent for this in gaming, remember what happened to Mass Effect: Andromeda? Or in broader media, there was a redesign of Sonic the Hedgehog for the movie. Monkey Island is a very old game with lots of fans which was previously renowned for highly detailed art. People don't enjoy the corporate memphis skewed proportions of this new style, simple as. Personal attacks are always wrong.
shrimp_emoji 4y ago
A great burden has been lifted.
david422 4y ago
There are a few things I've learned - or not learned - from releasing software. 1. People like to VENT. Some people are going to post nasty stuff even though they would normally act different in person. 2. Can you turn the nasty things into something positive? People vent because they are annoyed, or angry, or confused about something. Can that be fixed? Can that be improved? There may be a legitimate issue that could be improved even though they are not expressing themselves positively. 3. People vent because they care. They are invested enough in your software that they would like to see change. 4. For every person venting, there are probably 10x that are happy but just aren't commenting. Sometimes it seems that everybody is just unhappy, but really it's just the vocal minority. 5. Some people just need to be ignored.
- sph 4y ago
  6. We are not made for the Internet. It's going to be the downfall of civilization. Our social structures and social instincts are made for small groups of people in a tribe, distrusting outsiders. The Internet can be great for humanity, but we're 200 years away from learning how to use it correctly.
- nicbou 4y ago
  It's different when people vent with personal attacks, and do it in a place where your reputation matters to you.
prvc 4y ago
I think a lot of the comments in this (HN) thread are falsely assuming that he is reacting to the tone of the comments, rather than the fact that they don't seem to like what he has shared. Having read only a small sample of the linked comments, they seem to be overall civil but negative, which is probably even worse news for an approval-hungry creator than a rude response. There is a ready-made narrative about the badness of user-posted internet commentary that a subset of internet commentators love to post about, but in this case it doesn't seem to fit. This is said as someone who has absolutely no investment in the trailer's particular art-style or whatever their issue is. In any communication, regardless of the medium of transmission, a positive reaction on the part of the recipient of the message is not guaranteed.
- gamblor956 4y ago
  No, what you saw were the comments after he moderated out the comments telling him to kill himself, that he and is colleagues are useless, etc. He left behind the critical comments that were otherwise polite.
- soneca 4y ago
  > ” falsely assuming that he is reacting to the tone of the comments” I think you are wrong. The assumption that he is reacting to the tone is correct. He explicitly said that he is closing comments due to personal attacks.
causality0 4y ago
Is it just me or does the art style in the earlier trailer look almost nothing like the style in this one? I can't say I like the change. The old one was kind of cool with transparency and lighting effects and this looks very flat.
plankers 4y ago
I think the game looks fun :) I hope it gets a linux release, unlike every other Monkey Island game.
- LeoPanthera 4y ago
  The Windows version should run just fine under Steam Proton.
  - zack7linux 4y ago
    All the special editions weren't even updated for Windows 11 WDDM 3.0, one nvidia driver update broke them even on windows. Not sure if they even run nowadays on latest windows versions. They also removed the ios/android versions from the app stores before the special edition releases. Your only option is ScummVM and that doesn't support the special editions. All of them are rated as broken on wine appdb. I would not expect this to get Linux support, its Disney and its obvious by now that Ron doesn't care about his fans so there is that.
    - LeoPanthera 4y ago
      Both Monkey 1 and 2 SE are currently listed as supported by Proton in the Steam Store.
zac23or 4y ago
In my experience, people in general have little ability to judge anything. I went through some peer reviews and in one case some workers did not understand some terms on the questionnaire (such as "proactive"). Anyway, the most popular people get ten for being proactive. The internet only make this worse, because in the Internet everyone is "anonymous". I ignore 99% of judgments, I only start listening if there is a "because" in the judgment: "It's not good, because"... of course, the "because" needs to make sense.
- draw_down 4y ago
adamius 4y ago
I've recently done some art projects. The comments/feedback can be really bad. Really soul-destroying. The trick is to weight them correctly. Multiply positive by 5. Then re-evaluate. It helps. Negative people find water disgusting and yet water is a necessity for life. Its therefore very important to keep perspective.
nineplay 4y ago
> whatever you do dont make it a leftist multiculti gender bs I see this as exhibit #1 "why we need diversity". Let us hope to see a day when it will be so common for a game to have characters in any variety of races, cultures, and genders that no one would call it leftist bs.
- norwalkbear 4y ago
ElijahLynn 4y ago
Verifying that we are talking to real, authentic humans is going to be crucial for the future of the internet. Maybe not "real name" policy but let's answer the question, "How do I know I am having a conversation that is as authentic as meeting someone on the sidewalk?".
TheAceOfHearts 4y ago
The average internet commenter is careless and dumb. I've definitely made comments which I've later regretted, after realizing that the author would actually end up reading them. Often times comments are based on gut reactions which are given after barely taking any time to consider the art. Having a bad day and didn't enjoy the media quite that much, so you're a bit too mean and careless in your comments. It's easy to forget that there are real humans behind each creation. As creators, it's probably healthiest to avoid comments entirely and have someone filter the feedback for you. It only takes a few inconsiderate assholes to make the creator feel terrible. I recently experienced a lite version of this, where I posted what I considered to be constructive feedback on how to make a game community better. Immediately I was insulted, criticized, and downvoted. After the initial few comments I realized there would be no intelligent responses and I just stopped reading. Despite my intellectual awareness of this, having some kind of emotional reaction to the severely negative comments was unavoidable. It also means that going forward I'm less likely to engage with the community through that medium. The game for which I have the largest number of criticisms and complaints is also my favorite. When you spend multiple thousands of hours playing a game, you'll acutely feel each minor bug, issue, and problem. The list of compliments and praises is just as long, as it's the most fun and entertaining game I've ever played.
ycombinete 4y ago
This reminds me of what happened to Phil Fish, who made Fez. Horrible.
wly_cdgr 4y ago
bitwize 4y ago
I don't like the art style either, but I see that as a "me" thing. Ron is one of the few people left developing the kinds of games he would like to play. For that reason I'm glad he's pressing on with it, with the art style he wants to see.
RobertRoberts 4y ago
In the distant past (when the other monkey games came out) if you loved something you could put out effort to say something nice about it. But if you didn't like it, you wouldn't bother. Now the threshold for complaining about or trash talking something is nearly zero, so here we have everyone on equal speech/public platform footing and we hear everything. It's sad, but also reality. He would have quit after the first game (1990?) if the internet was as widely accessible and used back then.
user68858788 4y ago
I can relate. I was a game developer just breaking in when the whole gamergate nonsense happened. People were not only shitting on “political” games, but also doxxing people and harassing developers outside their offices. The experience caused several friends to leave the industry, myself included.
gorgoiler 4y ago
It’s funny because for all the focus on the graphics, for me, the most exciting thing was to hear the old comedy style again. Guybrush mannishly claiming his veins are flowing with stale grog? Yeah right, who are ya tryna kid, kid. No wonder Murray was cackling.
shaggie76 4y ago
I've been a professional game developer for 22 years and have definitely seen the amount of toxicity towards developers increase sharply in the last decade. Interestingly, though, some have suggested that this is not a bad thing, per-se. I believe it was a recent GDC talk where a Bungie dev who said something like "hate is only 2 degrees off from love." I think what he meant was, and I've heard this echoed from other developers, is that the fans are so emotionally invested and want you to succeed and fulfill their fantasies in the game that when you fail or things aren't quite right their love turns to hate in a blink of an eye. The theory is that you just have to listen to them and deal with their feedback no matter how rude it is and you can steer those 2 degrees back to love. I think there's something to that, but also I think a huge factor is the Free To Play model and how it's encouraged massive time-sinks into games which can create cognitive dissonance when the player has finally exhausted their interest. If a player has invested 3000 hours of their life, which I suspect in many cases matters more than putting in $50 or $100, being bored might make them feel guilty for their behaviour which quickly turns to anger and rage at the developer for letting them down and failing to continue to entertain them. This cycle only gets worse the longer they play because it's increasingly difficult for one game to have enough to offer after such a long time and so they get more bored but simultaneously more bitter that they've wasted so much time on it. Finally, burnout-rage is particularly bad for content creators which are serving a fan-base that's interested in a particular game. They might not even like the game that much but their add-revenue depends on an audience that wants to see content about it. I've seen numerous content creators go super-nova at the end when they finally break down and explode in bile (which, of course, includes performative outrage which is good for getting clicks too). The joy of sharing has been driven from me too.
saurik 4y ago
I know this feeling. In one case, I have/had a project this is used by a ton of people--it is even still used by a number of people today--and I finally just didn't enjoy sharing it with anyone anymore so I stopped working on it in public or making any new releases of it... I have put an incredible amount of work into it since the last public release, and I am really proud of where it went, but I have almost no interest in showing that work to anyone else or ever doing another public release, even though I know a ton of people would enjoy it and potentially benefit from it... it just isn't fun anymore.
- nicolas_t 4y ago
  Just wanted to chime in when I saw your username. I'm incredibly grateful for all the work you've done over the years with cydia, substrate and cycript. I've always tended to be grateful but not necessarily think about leaving comments, over the years I'm starting to realise that it's important to offset negative entitled comments that always seem to come out of the woodwork.
fouadf 4y ago
I bet someday in the future new fans of the game will find the art style so fresh. Ron is an artist and true to his craft. As a fan of the game series I can't wait to see what's in store. I think the artwork is unique and will attract newcomers, instead of repeating what's already there and serving only the "hardcore fans" who threw all that hate.
Ekaros 4y ago
If you don't want negative comments don't post on Internet. I still don't understand how freaking stupid people have to be not to understand this reality. You are not entitled to positive comments.

185 points by omnibrain 4y ago

I feel bad for him, but really the problem is he’s made a directorial mistake and it looks like the only point it’s gonna click is when the sales numbers hit. Will he realize his mistaken then or will he continue to blame the customer?

poszlem 4y ago
I could not agree more. A lot of game producers get this arrogant approach of: "Making games would be such awesome job if it wasn't for those pesky gamers". The question here is: "Is this a really innovative graphical design that will get praised by future generations but is misunderstood now" or "Is this just a bad decision that the creator is unwilling to own". I tend to think it's the latter. Ultimately the sales will tell. Obviously I'm not defending the minority of insane comments made my mentally unwell people, but it does feel to me that the rage-quit was prompted more by the general negative sentiment people expressed about the looks of the game rather than by the personal attacks. We have seen the same thing happen to Star Wars where the legitimate criticism was painted as toxicity of the fandom. To quote another HN comment I saved recently: > “Ultimately, the reason some people get upset when a series changes isn’t because the new game is new, but because the old games get their future cut off. Getting a sequel you don’t want closes the door more definitively than creating a new IP. Nobody wants to see the corpse of something they love puppeted around when it could just be laid to rest.”
- eduction 4y ago
  > Ultimately the sales will tell. If you believe games are at all art, then they cannot ultimately be judged either by commercial or critical success, or even by whether they please their creator. There is something utterly subjective and nondeterminant in the evaluation of art. Obviously, as humans we tend to evaluate the “success” of art on its long term impact. Commercial and critical failures in the short term can and have become treasured as masterpieces in the long term, and bestselling beloved work can turn out to be forgotten quickly.
- sleepybrett 4y ago
  > “Ultimately, the reason some people get upset when a series changes isn’t because the new game is new, but because the old games get their future cut off. Getting a sequel you don’t want closes the door more definitively than creating a new IP. Nobody wants to see the corpse of something they love puppeted around when it could just be laid to rest.” Except in this case, my understanding is that this isn't even true. This game is an alternate sequel to MI2 (which is widely beloved), throwing out the story from MI3 (and maybe Tales? Many fans did not like the story direction of MI3. Perhaps because Ron didn't work on it.. I didn't mind it). So I guess in that case, for the really opinionated MI1&2 fans, this is another bite at the apple.
- generalk 4y ago
  > The question here is: "Is this a really innovative graphical design that > will get praised by future generations but is misunderstood now" or "Is this > just a bad decision that the creator is unwilling to own". I tend to think > it's the latter. Ultimately the sales will tell. The question here is not "should people like a thing," it's "why are people such assholes?" To quote Ron Gilbert's linked post: > Play it or don't play it but don't ruin it for everyone else. It sure seems like this is a fantastic example of the Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory [0]: nobody would speak so awfully to Ron Gilbert if they were leaning over his shoulder watching the trailer. [0]: https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19/green-blackboards-and-other-anomalies https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19/green-blackboa...
- vlunkr 4y ago
  I'm sorry, but getting upset about a sequel you didn't want is an immature and entitled attitude. This is a sequel from the original creator, not some corporate cash-in, what else do you want? Ron Gilbert is not a mind reader, he can't deliver on 1000 contradictory fan expectations. This is the game they wanted to make, that's their right, if you don't like it just move along.
- dylan-m 4y ago
  > We have seen the same thing happen to Star Wars where the legitimate criticism was painted as toxicity of the fandom. Hold on a minute here. Yes, the racist assholes got more attention than they deserved. But Rise of the Skywalker was thrown together by a bunch of marketing executives looking through all that “legitimate criticism”, making a big checklist, and feeding it into their lifeless movie factory to create a giant wish fulfillment fantasy for all those “real fans” who were upset someone would dare to shake up their stale, predictable franchise. It was a terrible movie. Lessons: Disney is a cancer, but also people on the internet, as plentiful as they are, have no idea what they want.
  - bena 4y ago
    This is one area where I think Nintendo and Apple really excel at. They hardly, if ever, cave to user "wants", because they understand that often, the user has no fucking clue what they actually want. It's why they manage to succeed despite initial opinions being so against them. It's because often the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Looking at a thing can only tell you so much, it's only when you are able to actually experience the thing will you be able to judge whether it is good or not.
    - norwalkbear 4y ago
      It's not true in the case of Nintendo. They always actively get JAPANESE feedback for games like Zelda and Pokemon. As western and eastern tastes diverge, you'll see bigger issues. It's one of the reasons Square Enix just sold all their western studios.
    - Wowfunhappy 4y ago
      Users often don't know what they want, but they frequently know better than rando companies. Apple's strategy worked during the era of Steve Jobs because Steve Jobs was miraculously good at intuiting what users want. Since his death, Apple has lost that ability. See: The Butterfly Keyboard, the Touchbar, the 2013 Mac Pro. Apple's recent successes have been things consumers very much said they wanted: iPhones with larger screens, Macs with better performance and incredible battery life. Nintendo does seem to have some leaders with Steve Jobs's talent, but I'd argue they're more hit or miss than he was. The Wii U didn't go so well, and the Wii—while an initial success—was ultimately kind of mixed.
bogantech 4y ago
Disagreeing with the art direction is one thing but people are going beyond constructive criticism by being toxic and throwing personal attacks.
- aliswe 4y ago
  Not to pry, but do you have any examples of this?
  - oneepic 4y ago
    Ron mentioned he deleted some personal attack comments, so some of the closest examples are gone.
  - kemayo 4y ago
    The comments on the linked article feature a number of examples of this, despite already having had the worse stuff moderated-out. For instance: > You are an abhorrent and miserable human being, Ron Gilbert. You should be ashamed of yourself. One can only hope that you retire from the industry and never return. Which, you know, not cool.
  - alophawen 4y ago
    In the article being discussed, Ron writes: > I'm shutting down comments. People are just being mean and I'm having to delete personal attack comments. These comments is what you are requesting. Browse them using wayback machine: https://web.archive.org/web/*/https://grumpygamer.com/rtmi_trailer https://web.archive.org/web/*/https://grumpygamer.com/rtmi_t...
  - bombcar 4y ago
    Go read the HN comments, and then imagine what a cesspool like Youtube or Reddit would do if HN itself was that "down" on it. Personally I think it's a better art style than Tumbleweed, but I had issues with that game's story.
  - blktiger 4y ago
    Some references can be found here: https://kotaku.com/return-monkey-island-ron-gilbert-art-style-angry-fans-1849128586 https://kotaku.com/return-monkey-island-ron-gilbert-art-styl...
generalk 4y ago
"continue to blame the customer?" He's never said that folks were wrong, or blamed anyone for anything. Seems to me like he just wanted folks to not be shitty. Take, for example, this comment by someone calling themselves _Proud Retro Fascist_: > Nice attempt at silencing critics. The game will fail because it is > objectively hideous and you will only have yourself to blame. > > Inthe end all you will have achieved is killing off Monkey Island once more. > This time permanently. > > All you had to do was make a game with an art style that appeals to > everyone, whatever it might be. Instead, you opted for the most repugnant, > revolting and hideous TRASH art style that anybody has ever bared witness to > in a video game. You must be out of your mind. > > All said, try hiring good artists next time... if there is a next time, that > is. > > RIP MONKEY ISLAND I wouldn't blame anyone for being upset after receiving this kind of vile commentary "Objectively hideous;" "repugnant, revolting and hideous TRASH art style." There's nothing constructive or even reasonable there, it's purely nastiness for nastiness' sake. Stay strong, Ron Gilbert, don't let the assholes get you down.
- djur 4y ago
  > All you had to do was make a game with an art style that appeals to everyone, whatever it might be It beggars belief that someone could write this sincerely and not realize how absurd it is. "All you had to do was make something perfect."
  - 4cao 4y ago
    I understood it differently, to mean: "All you had to do was make a game with an art style that does not get in the way [of enjoying the game], whatever it might be." I think this interpretation makes sense, since the original game is primarily story-driven.
- Tarsul 4y ago
  Yeah, that's a very harsh comment. Nonetheless, there is something to be learnt here: If anything, the comments of the fans show that this artstyle alienates many of the fans. So, if for example the artstyle would've been showed at the very start of the development, then the developers could've listened to the fans and changed it. But everyone's in a tough spot now because development is nearly finished (game is planned for this year) and it would be too late to change course. As such, Ron Gilbert can only do one thing: Buckle up, release the game and let it be played by those who are not alienated by the artstyle. Maybe it will charm new fans even more; maybe not. Who knows. However, it certainly is an artstyle that is not "universal". E.g. AAA developers usually refine their main character so much that he appeals more or less universally, they want someone who is liked by everyone. They don't want a main character that is only liked by 50% of the target audience. BUT! This comes with the caveat that these games might be overoptimized for the mainstream and thus being somehow boring. That's why I love what the artists and Ron Gilbert did, even though I am torn on the style myself. Btw. I myself was even more alienated by the artstyle of Broken Age (so much that I never played it) and that was a game where I even invested money in. However, I never could've thrown words at Tim Schafer. And neither on Ron Gilbert, for that matter.
grogenaut 4y ago
Could you summarize what you feel the mistake is? Normally I'd RTFA but in this case it's a lot of arguing in threads and I'm missing context.
- kemayo 4y ago
  Some people don't like the art style chosen for the new game, which is pretty stylized. Some of them are being extremely (vocally) shitty about it.
soneca 4y ago
No, that’s not the problem. Not the problem that’s relevant to this discussion anyway. The problem is that people are either relentlessly telling him that they didn’t like the art or hatefully attacking him for choosing that art style. Hateful is what made him decide to close comments and not share stuff anymore. But relentless, even if polite, criticism also takes a toll. And art style quality is subjective. I, for one, don’t think he made a mistake. If it does hurt sales, it is an objective evidence that it was a mistake commercially speaking. Which is just one dimension. He might still be happy with his decision. Regardless of sales effect though, I think people feel entitled to be heard by him. They are not happy only with voting with their wallets, or just telling friends that they didn’t like the art style, that are making a point of going to him pointing fingers that he messed up. That’s not fine in my view even if they do not use hateful words, which a minority does. But the majority is still pointing fingers at him. For me Ron is doing the right thing in managing all this. Stop sharing stuff, close comments, go back working on it silence. If, because of that, the game is a commercial failure, so be it. It is his risk to take. People are acting outraged no because Ron is screaming rude things back to them, because he is not. People are outraged that he just won’t change the art style at this point. That he is not pulling a Sonic on this. And I think the behavior of those people demanding change is just silly. And dangerous when potentialzed by the scale of the internet. So good for Ron going back to silence. It will be better for him and the team. And, I think, better for the game as well.
norwalkbear 4y ago
Exactly. Top Gun 2 is great example of understanding the audience. it was a love letter to the fans. Gilbert made it all about himself with no awareness of what other people thought. That's his biggest mistake. He keeps saying he making the game HE wants to make. He really doesn't care about the fans, and they noticed. I strongly suspect it will only get uglier between the deep monkey island fans who kept the brand alive and Gilbert. If Ron wants to make art, then make art. But Monkey Island was never art for the sake of art. A far more successful revival that pleased the fans was Broken Sword 5.

olivermarks 4y ago

Good for Ron. He created the game, not the lookey loo's

vessenes 4y ago

I don’t get the hate- I like the style of the new graphics, and I think they are a sensitive updating of what’s good about monkey island’s original graphical vibe. I guess I am the target nostalgia demographic though; 70s latchkey kid. I fully intend to play this with my kids and enjoy the shit out of it.

ohCh6zos 4y ago
To me it looks very similar to Alegria corporate art which kind of turns me off, but he should do what he wants and I have no reason to think I should give him my feedback.
- kemayo 4y ago
  I've seen people making that comparison, and it feels off to me. The defining element of that "corporate" art style is that it's really flat -- abstract figures with minimal details and bold colors. By contrast, Return seems to have a lot of detail -- it's just expressed through a blocky, almost papercraft aesthetic. The level of specificity and caricature it's showing is honestly pretty opposed to the general goals of the "corporate" style. (None of this is to say there's anything wrong with not liking Return's art style, of course. Taste is subjective, etc etc. I just feel it's a poor comparison.)
bsder 4y ago
It's not that I don't like the graphic style--from looking at the trailer I don't like the style execution. I think the style is "ugly", but that could work well--especially in a game about pirates. The problem is that the backgrounds and animation look "cheap phone game". And that's not going to make people happy. The worst part is that I suspect that this is intentional--and that's what is REALLY pissing both sides off. Ron Gilbert probably wants this to be playable on lower end tablets and phones since phone revenue generally dwarfs PC revenue--so getting called out on this is not going to go over well. By the same token, the rabid fanbase is PC centric and is looking at a game that sure looks like it has made significant compromises for phones--they're going to be more than a bit upset about that. To top it off, Gilbert is used to getting nothing but positive reception and now is getting slammed. Furthermore, the project is too far along to actually do anything that might be able to mitigate the criticism. Whoops.

atwood22 4y ago

I don't understand the outrage at this art style. Granted, I've never played any of the Monkey Island games, and have no emotional attachment to the content. To me, the art style seems very similar to a Cartoon Network cartoon, and that may have broad appeal to kids today. Like I kind of understand why people are upset: this thing you loved 32 years ago is being vandalized in your eyes. However, you're really old now, your prefrontal cortex should be fully developed, so get over it.

the_only_law 4y ago
I'm not sure if it's even an exclusively nostalgia thing. Over the past few years I've seen a lot of complaining around art style changes. Notably the Civ V -> Civ VI art style change pissed a lot of people off. Personally I loved the game, but a lot of series veterans didn't even bother to try it.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
  In the other thread about this, someone brought up the colloquially named "Zelda Effect". It is most evident when reviewing Wind Waker, which used cartoony cell-shaded graphics: contemporary comments featured quite a lot of vitriol over that decision, but the game is now fondly remembered as one of the best entrants in the series.
  - bombcar 4y ago
    Deep down almost everyone is "conservative" - they want what they had yesterday again today, so any change to art style, etc, is already on a back-foot. But in the end, the good things stand out. The reason the CD-i Zelda games are not remembered fondly is not really because of the art style, that's just an easy way to rip on them.
    - mikkergp 4y ago
      The game developer is basically taking all the hate that people are really directing at a society that doesn't value the same things they do anymore. I thought SNES Zelda and Final Fantasy were the best, but I didn't threaten the developers when they moved to 3d.

hprotagonist 4y ago

I could give two shits about the art style. I just can't stand the worry that he's going to grimdark the storyline. It is important to me that guybrush and elaine and the gang don't go that way.

RajT88 4y ago
I don't imagine it's that kind of game (the series thus far hasn't been), but at the same time I like the idea that we're seeing a mature Guybrush reflecting on his adventures and mistakes in life. At this point I don't really mind what direction they take at the end of the day. I love the characters, and just want to see where they end up. I do hope we get another game where they play with Claymation style animation, though.
- hprotagonist 4y ago
  the crux of my worry is this: the ending of MI2 compared to the ending of a non-gilbert MI3, and I love MI3.

superb-owl 4y ago

The vitriol in this article is really hard to read. Watching a creator get attacked liked that is sad. I want to say something snarky like "that's what you get for having anonymous unmoderated comments" but honestly I just wish we could not be assholes.

hgsgm 4y ago
Guess what happens if 99.9% of people are not assholes.

victorclf 4y ago

Seems he just found out how most people in the Internet don't produce anything worthwhile and yet feel entitled to bash everyone's else hard work.

chomp 4y ago

Gamers are the most entitled consumer group I've ever seen. It's astounding. Someone wants to create something, and there's just so much hate and negativity on something that people didn't even pay for. I've seen it on HN also. Someone creates a thing, and then people pour out of the woodwork to lump horrible criticism. No one is asking for blind praise for what they create, but surely there's a middle ground between blind praise and mob bullying?

shaky-carrousel 4y ago
That is what was going through my mind while reading it. Entitled brats. They are a bunch of entitled brats.
- RajT88 4y ago
  You can imagine a bunch of nasty teenagers posting stuff like that, but fun fact: Most MI fans are likely to be over 30. (Many over 40)
bombcar 4y ago
It's more than gamers as you notice, it's the whole 'self-reinforcing internet cycle' - if the first reaction is X, that will be amplified tremendously as everyone piles on to agree with X. This goes for both for and against, but against is usually easier. Famous examples include Dropbox (here), iPod (Slashdot), etc.
- manmal 4y ago
  The Dropbox thread was not super negative, I just looked at it again. If your product is useful, there will be positive feedback. Haters gonna hate, that’s always been the case.
zac23or 4y ago
> Gamers are the most entitled consumer group I've ever seen True, but Some open source communities are good candidates for "most entitled consumers". > I've seen it on HN also I will ever remember the launch of Dropbox here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8863 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8863

adamrezich 4y ago

I like Ron Gilbert. I don't like all of the games he's worked on but I like most of them. I think it's great that he's making this new game and he's doing it how he wants to. I will likely check it out when it's released and there's a good chance that I'll enjoy it. all of that said, I have a hard time understanding this situation. when you've been making games for decades and you've watched the Internet grow from nothing in that time, how can you possibly release a trailer for your upcoming game showing an art style that you don't have to hire a focus testing company to tell you that the Internet will knee-jerk react negatively to... without knowing that there would be The Usual, Expected Amount of "toxic" backlash? how could you not see this coming, and why would you then go on to take it personally? I fully understand the human angle where like, if I released a trailer for a game I was working on tomorrow, and for whatever reason the Internet Hate Machine started churning against me, I would have a very hard time handling it, because I have never been in a situation like that before, and the human mind is ill-equipped to deal with the onslaught of criticism, both fair and over-the-top, that is just part and parcel of putting things on the Internet these days. in the past ~15 years of the indie game scene there have been countless examples of this exact scenario playing out time and time again, and I have complete and total empathy for anyone in that situation—it has to be hard. but this is a guy who's made both games that are considered classics, as well as games that have been critically panned. why is he taking the perfectly predictable response to the art style shown in this trailer so personally? the only conclusion I can reach—and it's a mighty cynical one—is that this must be part of the planned PR cycle for the game. the game was announced earlier this year, as being planned to be released later this year, meaning that at the time of that announcement, the art style was almost certainly already settled upon... yet the decision was made to withhold from revealing the art style at that point in time. now, awhile later, we get a trailer that shows and demonstrates the art style. again, the Internet's reaction writ large was wholly predictable. now Ron Gilbert says this wholly predictable reaction makes him sad and makes him not want to share any more of the game until release, and various "journalists" and commentators in the space get to write up think-pieces about the event heralding this act—not sharing any more of your game until it's released—as one of moral bravery in the face of the innately toxic and reprehensibly evil Internet Comment Section saying mean things about the latest game from a respected and celebrated creator of some of the most cherished classics in the history of computer gaming. Entitled Toxic Gamers get shamed for being Toxic and Entitled and Gamers, as though we haven't learned anything over the past 20 years about how anonymous comment sections inherently work in the everyone-has-an-Internet-connected-smartphone-in-their-pocket-at-all-times contemporary society we now live in. blogs get something juicy to write about. everyone wins! is there any reason for me to not believe that some version of the above is what happened here? or am I completely off-base here and perhaps Ron Gilbert is just mentally stuck in the 90s, where your publisher sends promotional prerelease screenshots to a gaming magazine and you don't have to directly see any criticism, as someone else at the company reads all the (e- and snail) mail for you? or something else? tl;dr I can't understand getting mad at the Internet for being the Internet in 2022, it will never get better, if anything it will only get worse—this is the price we collectively had to pay when we decided everyone should be online at all times.

mattiperakyla 4y ago

gamers are psychos

l30n4da5 4y ago
I like to think it is more just a very vocal minority that are psychos.

icu 4y ago

I think you got to discount points of view from the perspective of how valuable their perspective is to your goal. The problem with social media and open forums is that it’s not obvious and takes time to figure out who’s who. Having said that, it seems a little childish to me that Ron just shut down the haters. I think that there might be a bit of his ego attached to the outcome versus the process. I can only speculate that perhaps he wanted recognition and adulation for this bold choice and was hurt when feedback didn’t match expectations. Sure people might be rude about it, but it seems that there is clearly a market for the retro pixelated aesthetic, so why not give people what they want if his goal is to satisfy the fan base and continue the story? I have no doubt the story, set, characters and jokes will be great. I guess the comment asking for Ron to do a Sonic might have been too on the nose for him. I think that any creator has to reconcile that if they create for others, their art becomes something more than just theirs, like a sort of reflexive co-creation. Seems to me the best artists understand this while not letting it stifle their creativity.

pessimizer 4y ago
> it seems a little childish to me that Ron just shut down the haters. Maybe, but there are too many comments for a flat page like that to be useful anyway (other than the first 50 or so comments.) Nothing of value was lost.

karaterobot 4y ago

The healthiest thing for a creative person to do is ignore reviews, and not pay attention to comments about your work. Mentally, and emotionally, and creatively, I mean. Your job is to make things that other people can appreciate, or not, but you don't need to listen to them if you don't want to. Active community engagement is a fairly recent phenomenon, and it's a marketing technique, not an artistic one. I'm sure it works for some people, but don't feel like you need to do it if it causes you pain, and not, by any means, if it makes it harder to do your job. It may feel necessary in 2022 to engage with fans and build a personal brand, but go ahead and audit the creators you really respect, and how many of them do this. Some do, I'm sure, but some don't.

kemayo 4y ago
I think Gilbert got hit hard by this because he's been running this personal blog since 2004, and suddenly getting a flood of shitty comments can't be fun.
- WorldMaker 4y ago
  Yeah, up until Return's announcement, it was a very quiet old school blog with a tiny readership (raises hand), one of very few left. It survived a long time without getting faced with modern internet communities and Reddit/HN hugs of death.

mromanuk 4y ago

Monkey Island was cutting edge technology when I first played it as a child in the early 1990s, I fell in love with it. Why would anyone expect that Ron would create a pixel-art, retro-style game? Ron articulated this line of reasoning. He is the creator and has every right to select the style that he desires.

fouadf 4y ago
Agreed, although I think the genre is mostly popular as pixel art retro style, especially that he made thimbleweed park that way.. that's probably why they wanted a different art style. Personally I think Ron is an artist and I'll buy whatever he's selling.

bob1029 4y ago

I feel even in gaming, the customer is always right at the end of the day. Unless we are talking about making games just for the sake of it & then throwing them away, but I suspect not. That said, most of the time it is better to not interact with the customer until you are certain it is the right time. Transparency seems like more of a liability than anything here. I strongly prefer the stealth mode development pattern, assuming you do have a clear & consistent vision relative to your market & customers. A lot of human feedback is bullshit, so avoid it until you actually need it. Most people don't know what they like until they are 20 hours deep into it. Don't give them time to build up ridiculous expectations relative to your product. Think about the way EA games launched Apex Legends. I would prefer if every game studio went down that path.

kabdib 4y ago
> I feel even in gaming, the customer is always right at the end of the day. There are customers who are most definitely not right. The kind that cheat in online games, lie about it, dox you when you catch them. The kind of customer that tries to break into your systems or DDOS you. The kind that try to steal from you and your partners, or that harass other players, or that post pornography to your forums. The kind that make bots or thousands of fake accounts. The kind that build phishing sites and steal other customers' credentials, empty out their wallets and sell all of their assets. It's a small proportion of customers that do this, but that's still a large enough number that it's a big deal. (Kindly don't respond, "Well, all you have to do is put technical measures in place to prevent all of this." You need to have been in the trenches dealing with them before you can have a valid opinion on mitigations). The customer is not always right.
- bob1029 4y ago
  > Then you have not dealt with real customers. This is a very bold assumption. Do you want to try some nuance here?
  - kabdib 4y ago
    Sure. I'll edit that down a bit. I have a fair amount of experience dealing with the type of customer who is not great, and who would be great to get rid of. A net positive for everyone, if it were possible. Most customers are great. Some are not. Some are essentially (or demonstrably) criminals. At scale, it's a huge problem and very difficult to solve. The platitude "the customer is always right" is a fine principle until you need to deal with the real world of fraud, criminal activity and harassment.

stuckinhell 4y ago

A lot of creatives have a hard time understanding the product side of art. Games are far more products like movies than they are "art". There have been a bunch of recent examples lately that showcases the minds of masses. Spiderman No Way Home did supremely well by giving the masses what they wanted, and not straying too far from the marvel formula. Sonic the Hedgehog Movie had a awful original art direction. The fans complained and the director reversed course, and now its a beloved and highly rated movie. Top Gun 2 is another great example. The tone, direction, spirit of the original movie is captured supremely well and is on track for a billion dollars. Pixar's Lightyear is a disappointment at the box office. Honestly who wanted a "realistic" version of Buzz from Toy Story. The tone, spirit, and art direction are too different. I think Ron made a horrible directorial mistake, and while he shouldn't be attacked for it. He does deserve criticism, and people should be allowed to voice their dislike for a product and its direction. As people on other sites have mentioned, this whole project has the feeling of the George Lucas Star Wars Prequels. George Lucas needed some honest feedback, and collaboration with other people like Kasdan. Ron Gilbert should have gotten some opinions from the original Monkey Island artists/Lucas Arts Crew.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
I don't think anyone is arguing that the art direction can't be criticized[0], just that Ron doesn't deserve abuse for it. Unfortunately "Gamers" includes a group of extremely entitled and vocal internet asshats who frequently do things like hurl death threats at developers for missing deadlines. Now they have chosen to harass a legend who shaped the very genre because he has offended their aesthetic sensibilities. It's ridiculous and no one should have to put up with that crap. [0] honestly I'm also a bit put off by it, but that might just be because it is unfamiliar, which isn't the same thing as bad. Besides, since I consider graphics to be one of the least important things in games I don't think it will affect my enjoyment that much.
regentbowerbird 4y ago
> Games are far more products like movies than they are "art" Says whom? You demonstrate your points by showing that blockbusters make money, which says nothing about whether they are art. They're entirely different dimensions of the same work, and hard to compare. Obviously the accounting department will have a different point of view than the creative director. You're also arguing that people making new films on an existing franchise should stick to giving the fans what they want. But who's to say the fans even know what they want? They might not care, they might be mistaken, they might misremember things. For example, people clamoring for World of Warcraft Classic or a back-to-the-roots Sonic game back in the day weren't really hoping for a product per se, but rather to go back to a time when the product was more culturally relevant (and they were younger). A new direction can also capture a new audience, which might make fans negligible. For instance the Star Wars prequel are still divisive but a large, younger portion of the fandom likes them very much. And what fans are we talking about anyway? You give Spider-man as an example. But there have been thousand of pieces of Spider-man media, with wildly different art styles and tones. Which one is "what the fans want"? Disney went with the Marvel formula precisely because it's a lowest-common denominator style of film, accessible to non-fans. And finally another obvious problem with your thesis is that nothing new can be made if it is required to give to the masses what they want for sure. Almost by definition, it is unknown whether any new concept, style, tone, or property are what people want. At the same time it is known that the public at least somewhat values originality, so companies take risks and release films such as Pirates of the Caribbean or games like Assassin's Creed.

rvieira 4y ago

I played the original ones and I would have preferred a pixel art closer to the original. That being said, I subscribe what Ron and many people here said. If you don't like it, don't buy it. There's no need for all vitriol. I will buy it the same, since for me Monkey Island was always about much more than the graphics. On top of everything, this is the actual _creator_ of all the games and stories' vision. It's not like it's some knock-off copy or money-grabbing reboot. If this is how he imagined the new Monkey Island we should at least be happy there's another one!

izacus 4y ago
Pixel art like which of the originals? Monkey Island 3 and 4 had nothing remotely resembling pixel art and were still beautiful.
- rvieira 4y ago
  I was talking about "Secret" and "LeChuck's Revenge". When "Curse" came out I was "too cool" for computer games. Now I'm back at being "lame" :)
  - detritus 4y ago
    Entirely off-topic, but this resonates so much for me - I think I went entirely off computer games for about three years, peaking around the age of 18. I left the world of the Amiga and then later got a PC for Uni and slipped into an entirely different gaming world, running at 5x the clockspeed. On school holidays I'd come back to an ever-failing disk collection, to the point I only had a shareware game called Galaxy Wars (I think?) and an install of SimAnt (on a 20Mb HD, lol), by which point it was clear that the Amiga was truly dead in the water! If there's one thing I'm looking forward to with this new MI, it's the updated theme tune, which sounds glorious. It WILL be my ringtone again!
- lentil_soup 4y ago
  They were quite pretty but Ron Gilbert wasn't involved in MI3 and 4. That's why this is a bit like a branch off MI2

xwkd 4y ago

Hatred is a badge of honor for an artist. You’ve created something that stirs the passions. Would you prefer indifference? If you care so much about the opinions expressed by your audience, then maybe take a step back and look at the collective sentiment. This is an opportunity for growth and reflection, not to cry in some corner like a child who’s taken his ball and gone home. You’re a professional, Ron. What would a professional do with this feedback?

floren 4y ago

The behavior of the commenters is pretty abhorrent. It feels awful to make something you're excited about, put it out there, and get shit on by the people you thought you were making it for! Now, there is something about the animation style that made me think "oh, this feels kind of cheap". Something in the loose-limbed and kind of weightless movement of the characters. I had to think about it for a while, then I realized it felt like the character animations in the "Fallout Shelter" mobile game (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhOM8dGuHgM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhOM8dGuHgM) and I guess the association with a microtransaction-based mobile game made me think "cheap". But I'm an adult, so I don't go and tell the creator he should kill himself just because my brain made this weird connection. Criticism is valid and important, but I think too many people watched those stupid AVGN videos in their formative years and got a warped view of what criticism should look like.

scotty79 4y ago
I wonder what's worse... Seeing people hating on what you put out, or seeing exactly zero interest in it. Seeing your updates and comments recieve no responses as if there was noone on the other end.

MBCook 4y ago

GamerGate was just a preview.

Beltalowda 4y ago

> Gamers are the most entitled consumer group I've ever seen. It's astounding. Someone wants to create something, and there's just so much hate and negativity on something that people didn't even pay for. I sometimes end up on Steam and the like when I search for "some-game pass level-I-find-difficult", or "some-game Linux". Almost every single thread I've seen there starts with someone asking a fairly reasonable question ("I'm having trouble with X, any tips?", "Are the developers planning to release this game on Linux? Thanks!") and quickly devolving in to a complete shitshow ("you're a lazy fake gamer if you can't pass X, it's so easy!", "lol Linux only for autistic nerds"). To say I'm not a fan of the "gamer community" is an understatement. I'm sure the majority of people who play games are nice folks, but the online spaces are dominates by obnoxious loudmouths more than any other community I've seen. Now, I have to admit I'm also not wildly impressed by the art style of the new MI game, but you know, it's Ron's game; I can take it or leave it... (and since I'm fairly sure the writing will be as good as the earlier games I don't even mind all that much, as long as it doesn't have the horrendous controls from the 4th and 5th games I'll be happy, furthermore, I'd rather people try something new instead of merely regurgitating what was done 30 years ago, even if I'm personally not a huge fan of it).

ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago

It's not just gamers. The Internet has spawned a culture of "no consequences for letting your Id come out to play." If I walk up to Big Bad John, and call him a rude name, he will knock my teeth out. That's called "immediate negative feedback." Consequence immediately follows action. On the Internet (although this kind of thing predates the Internet. The Internet just commoditized it), this negative feedback loop is removed. The response is just more bad words, and a good troll learns to actually savor this type of response (I know of what I speak. I was once ... not so well-behaved ... on the Internet –even pre-WWW). Positive feedback is treated as "weak," or "syrupy" (to be fair, a lot of it is like Cute Overload[0]), and folks who try to remain positive are usually relentlessly attacked. I know of this, because I try to remain positive, and not "go there," when confronted by negativity. I assume I come across as "Snotty"[1]. Better than the alternative; believe you me... When I hear people defending extreme hate jockeys, they always say "[S]He's just saying what everyone is thinking." There's a reason that we don't say everything we think. [0] https://twitter.com/cuteoverload?lang=en https://twitter.com/cuteoverload?lang=en [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pP_gV2cWntg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pP_gV2cWntg (James Hong's greatest role).

cptnapalm 4y ago
A Robert E. Howard quote I like: Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.
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pessimizer 4y ago
> If I walk up to Big Bad John, and call him a rude name, he will knock my teeth out. Big Bad John is a strawman, because if Big Bad John was abusing his children or beating his wife, I wouldn't confront him either. I'd call the police. It doesn't reflect at all the legitimacy or illegitimacy of the criticism. Also, we should probably get over that pretense that anonymity ends brutal criticism. Plenty of people are happy to sign pretty brutal criticism, or even to make a brand out of it. The thing that it's easy to do is to attack "haters" or "cynics" because they don't really exist. They're what happens when people define other people's motivations by the effect on them personally. Somebody hates me? They're a "hater." Somebody says that something I think will work will definitely not work? They're a "cynic" that doesn't believe anything can improve and hate people who have retained the ability to dream. The same people leaving comments on this game encouraging the designers to kill themselves will agree completely with this reasoning, because it has very little content.

fxtentacle 4y ago

Oh wow. Let's hope the old saying "there is no bad publicity" turns out true and at the very least, all this outrage will make everyone aware that there's a new Monkey Island.

WBrentWilliams 4y ago

Going meta (note the lack of capitalization and insert your own joke here) I would say that the stress of running comments on your own blog, in any form, costs more most of the time as compared to sending the comments to places like HN, Reddit, and the like. I can see where size of concern means that you engage and host comments on your own site. However, it also seems to be that running a comment space in service of sharing something made and/or selling a product is the equivalent of painting a wall a nice, pristine white in a highly visible and accessible place and then getting mad at that same wall getting tagged with graffiti. In other words, I am sorry that the Ron Glibert got burned, and I sympathize, but it seems to me that YouTube (where the video is hosted) runs a perfectly serviceable comments site that you can turn on and off. No need to run your own (unless you want to).

frazbin 4y ago

The art style feels like an homage to Grim Fandango, one of my favorite adventure games. I don't understand the hate at all.

rasz 4y ago
The only thing in common with Grim Fandango is universal lack of human noses on all the characters.
deleted 4y ago
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DoneWithAllThat 4y ago

Something I’ve increasingly felt is that nobody should feel like they’re under any obligation to read comments on what they do or replies to what they say. In the days before the internet the options for direct feedback to an author or creator were limited and often the author or creator could or would just ignore them. It was considered a good idea! Now people have things like forums for their games or comments on their articles and for some reason I don’t understand feel compelled to engage with them. They shouldn’t. It’s okay to just make what you want to make or write what you want to write and ignore any and all response to it. If your works are valuable and enjoyed then great, if not so be it. But subjecting yourself to the most obsessive and neurotic segment of your audience is just a recipe for misery. There’s little to no benefit to it. You don’t owe anything to anyone.

wiceo 4y ago
I agree. People who have a gripe or criticism are more inclined to comment than a person who enjoys the product. It reminds me of the old saying "assholes always advertise." It's best to ignore or take those comments with a grain of salt. However, that's often easier said than done.
nicbou 4y ago
Sometimes the criticism is delivered directly to you, in a community you care about. It's one thing to know that someone on the internet dislikes you. It's another to see someone do it within earshot at your favourite pub. People on the internet make the sort of quips you'd never make within slapping distance of the subject. They do it where the subject hangs out.

branon 4y ago

People don't like the art style. There's even precedent for this in gaming, remember what happened to Mass Effect: Andromeda? Or in broader media, there was a redesign of Sonic the Hedgehog for the movie. Monkey Island is a very old game with lots of fans which was previously renowned for highly detailed art. People don't enjoy the corporate memphis skewed proportions of this new style, simple as. Personal attacks are always wrong.

shrimp_emoji 4y ago

A great burden has been lifted.

david422 4y ago

There are a few things I've learned - or not learned - from releasing software. 1. People like to VENT. Some people are going to post nasty stuff even though they would normally act different in person. 2. Can you turn the nasty things into something positive? People vent because they are annoyed, or angry, or confused about something. Can that be fixed? Can that be improved? There may be a legitimate issue that could be improved even though they are not expressing themselves positively. 3. People vent because they care. They are invested enough in your software that they would like to see change. 4. For every person venting, there are probably 10x that are happy but just aren't commenting. Sometimes it seems that everybody is just unhappy, but really it's just the vocal minority. 5. Some people just need to be ignored.

sph 4y ago
6. We are not made for the Internet. It's going to be the downfall of civilization. Our social structures and social instincts are made for small groups of people in a tribe, distrusting outsiders. The Internet can be great for humanity, but we're 200 years away from learning how to use it correctly.
nicbou 4y ago
It's different when people vent with personal attacks, and do it in a place where your reputation matters to you.

prvc 4y ago

I think a lot of the comments in this (HN) thread are falsely assuming that he is reacting to the tone of the comments, rather than the fact that they don't seem to like what he has shared. Having read only a small sample of the linked comments, they seem to be overall civil but negative, which is probably even worse news for an approval-hungry creator than a rude response. There is a ready-made narrative about the badness of user-posted internet commentary that a subset of internet commentators love to post about, but in this case it doesn't seem to fit. This is said as someone who has absolutely no investment in the trailer's particular art-style or whatever their issue is. In any communication, regardless of the medium of transmission, a positive reaction on the part of the recipient of the message is not guaranteed.

gamblor956 4y ago
No, what you saw were the comments after he moderated out the comments telling him to kill himself, that he and is colleagues are useless, etc. He left behind the critical comments that were otherwise polite.
soneca 4y ago
> ” falsely assuming that he is reacting to the tone of the comments” I think you are wrong. The assumption that he is reacting to the tone is correct. He explicitly said that he is closing comments due to personal attacks.

causality0 4y ago

Is it just me or does the art style in the earlier trailer look almost nothing like the style in this one? I can't say I like the change. The old one was kind of cool with transparency and lighting effects and this looks very flat.

plankers 4y ago

I think the game looks fun :) I hope it gets a linux release, unlike every other Monkey Island game.

LeoPanthera 4y ago
The Windows version should run just fine under Steam Proton.
- zack7linux 4y ago
  All the special editions weren't even updated for Windows 11 WDDM 3.0, one nvidia driver update broke them even on windows. Not sure if they even run nowadays on latest windows versions. They also removed the ios/android versions from the app stores before the special edition releases. Your only option is ScummVM and that doesn't support the special editions. All of them are rated as broken on wine appdb. I would not expect this to get Linux support, its Disney and its obvious by now that Ron doesn't care about his fans so there is that.
  - LeoPanthera 4y ago
    Both Monkey 1 and 2 SE are currently listed as supported by Proton in the Steam Store.

zac23or 4y ago

In my experience, people in general have little ability to judge anything. I went through some peer reviews and in one case some workers did not understand some terms on the questionnaire (such as "proactive"). Anyway, the most popular people get ten for being proactive. The internet only make this worse, because in the Internet everyone is "anonymous". I ignore 99% of judgments, I only start listening if there is a "because" in the judgment: "It's not good, because"... of course, the "because" needs to make sense.

draw_down 4y ago

adamius 4y ago

I've recently done some art projects. The comments/feedback can be really bad. Really soul-destroying. The trick is to weight them correctly. Multiply positive by 5. Then re-evaluate. It helps. Negative people find water disgusting and yet water is a necessity for life. Its therefore very important to keep perspective.

nineplay 4y ago

> whatever you do dont make it a leftist multiculti gender bs I see this as exhibit #1 "why we need diversity". Let us hope to see a day when it will be so common for a game to have characters in any variety of races, cultures, and genders that no one would call it leftist bs.

norwalkbear 4y ago

ElijahLynn 4y ago

Verifying that we are talking to real, authentic humans is going to be crucial for the future of the internet. Maybe not "real name" policy but let's answer the question, "How do I know I am having a conversation that is as authentic as meeting someone on the sidewalk?".

TheAceOfHearts 4y ago

The average internet commenter is careless and dumb. I've definitely made comments which I've later regretted, after realizing that the author would actually end up reading them. Often times comments are based on gut reactions which are given after barely taking any time to consider the art. Having a bad day and didn't enjoy the media quite that much, so you're a bit too mean and careless in your comments. It's easy to forget that there are real humans behind each creation. As creators, it's probably healthiest to avoid comments entirely and have someone filter the feedback for you. It only takes a few inconsiderate assholes to make the creator feel terrible. I recently experienced a lite version of this, where I posted what I considered to be constructive feedback on how to make a game community better. Immediately I was insulted, criticized, and downvoted. After the initial few comments I realized there would be no intelligent responses and I just stopped reading. Despite my intellectual awareness of this, having some kind of emotional reaction to the severely negative comments was unavoidable. It also means that going forward I'm less likely to engage with the community through that medium. The game for which I have the largest number of criticisms and complaints is also my favorite. When you spend multiple thousands of hours playing a game, you'll acutely feel each minor bug, issue, and problem. The list of compliments and praises is just as long, as it's the most fun and entertaining game I've ever played.

ycombinete 4y ago

This reminds me of what happened to Phil Fish, who made Fez. Horrible.

wly_cdgr 4y ago

bitwize 4y ago

I don't like the art style either, but I see that as a "me" thing. Ron is one of the few people left developing the kinds of games he would like to play. For that reason I'm glad he's pressing on with it, with the art style he wants to see.

RobertRoberts 4y ago

In the distant past (when the other monkey games came out) if you loved something you could put out effort to say something nice about it. But if you didn't like it, you wouldn't bother. Now the threshold for complaining about or trash talking something is nearly zero, so here we have everyone on equal speech/public platform footing and we hear everything. It's sad, but also reality. He would have quit after the first game (1990?) if the internet was as widely accessible and used back then.

user68858788 4y ago

I can relate. I was a game developer just breaking in when the whole gamergate nonsense happened. People were not only shitting on “political” games, but also doxxing people and harassing developers outside their offices. The experience caused several friends to leave the industry, myself included.

gorgoiler 4y ago

It’s funny because for all the focus on the graphics, for me, the most exciting thing was to hear the old comedy style again. Guybrush mannishly claiming his veins are flowing with stale grog? Yeah right, who are ya tryna kid, kid. No wonder Murray was cackling.

shaggie76 4y ago

I've been a professional game developer for 22 years and have definitely seen the amount of toxicity towards developers increase sharply in the last decade. Interestingly, though, some have suggested that this is not a bad thing, per-se. I believe it was a recent GDC talk where a Bungie dev who said something like "hate is only 2 degrees off from love." I think what he meant was, and I've heard this echoed from other developers, is that the fans are so emotionally invested and want you to succeed and fulfill their fantasies in the game that when you fail or things aren't quite right their love turns to hate in a blink of an eye. The theory is that you just have to listen to them and deal with their feedback no matter how rude it is and you can steer those 2 degrees back to love. I think there's something to that, but also I think a huge factor is the Free To Play model and how it's encouraged massive time-sinks into games which can create cognitive dissonance when the player has finally exhausted their interest. If a player has invested 3000 hours of their life, which I suspect in many cases matters more than putting in $50 or $100, being bored might make them feel guilty for their behaviour which quickly turns to anger and rage at the developer for letting them down and failing to continue to entertain them. This cycle only gets worse the longer they play because it's increasingly difficult for one game to have enough to offer after such a long time and so they get more bored but simultaneously more bitter that they've wasted so much time on it. Finally, burnout-rage is particularly bad for content creators which are serving a fan-base that's interested in a particular game. They might not even like the game that much but their add-revenue depends on an audience that wants to see content about it. I've seen numerous content creators go super-nova at the end when they finally break down and explode in bile (which, of course, includes performative outrage which is good for getting clicks too). The joy of sharing has been driven from me too.

saurik 4y ago

I know this feeling. In one case, I have/had a project this is used by a ton of people--it is even still used by a number of people today--and I finally just didn't enjoy sharing it with anyone anymore so I stopped working on it in public or making any new releases of it... I have put an incredible amount of work into it since the last public release, and I am really proud of where it went, but I have almost no interest in showing that work to anyone else or ever doing another public release, even though I know a ton of people would enjoy it and potentially benefit from it... it just isn't fun anymore.

nicolas_t 4y ago
Just wanted to chime in when I saw your username. I'm incredibly grateful for all the work you've done over the years with cydia, substrate and cycript. I've always tended to be grateful but not necessarily think about leaving comments, over the years I'm starting to realise that it's important to offset negative entitled comments that always seem to come out of the woodwork.

fouadf 4y ago

I bet someday in the future new fans of the game will find the art style so fresh. Ron is an artist and true to his craft. As a fan of the game series I can't wait to see what's in store. I think the artwork is unique and will attract newcomers, instead of repeating what's already there and serving only the "hardcore fans" who threw all that hate.

Ekaros 4y ago

If you don't want negative comments don't post on Internet. I still don't understand how freaking stupid people have to be not to understand this reality. You are not entitled to positive comments.