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Germany’s move to legalise cannabis expected to create ‘domino effect’

338 points by samizdis 4y ago

deleted 4y ago
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selfmodruntime 4y ago
I think the legalization of cannabis in Europe has a lot of potential. I just wish that we would take measures to avoid the ever increasing levels of THC dosage in weed to insane levels, like you see in the US or California specifically. I firmly believe that cannabis can do a lot of good, but the poison is in the dosage. It has been shown in the past that increasing THC while decreasing CBD leads to an increase in negative side effects, some being permanent [1]. Let's see how it'll work out. I also think it's quite funny that the German meme "Bubatz" has made it into the highest levels of our government. [1]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6312155/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6312155/
- hef19898 4y ago
  One of the benefits of legalization is the possibility to properly regulate the product. If it's black market it's an uncontrolled free for all.
- mojzu 4y ago
  I think legalisation could help in this regard as long as companies are required to measure/label products appropriately. Similar to how the most popular alcohols during prohibition were spirits, whereas now there's a massive range of drinks at pretty much any alcoholic percentage you want
- BrianOnHN 4y ago
  - frereubu 4y ago
    I don't really understand how talk about increasing THC levels plays into racism, but perhaps I'm misunderstanding - can you elaborate?
  - dpbriggs 4y ago
    Racist? Could you elaborate? It's a public health concern as people are getting addicted.
    - BrianOnHN 4y ago
      You also misread. The other stuff is the racist part. This part, "rising potency", is just a predictable effect of prohibition and "change of literally anything" causes Fear in the noobs. Wake. Up. People.
      - dpbriggs 4y ago
        That could be the an explanation for only having high potency weed in areas where it's prohibited, but it's equally available here in Canada where it's legal. I think people just like it.
        BrianOnHN 4y ago
        Because all the Canadian weed stays there. Right...
        dpbriggs 4y ago
        I don't think that makes sense? What are you attempting to communicate? I'm saying that high potency products are still sold in legalized areas as there's demand for it. I remember having issues years ago finding low but not non-zero THC products on the government website. I had to get 17% which is still high. Things may be different now.
        frereubu 4y ago
        With respect, it sounds like you're having a bad day, and it's coming over as if you want a fight. I agree with you that prohibition causes all kinds of undesirable effects - including yet another route for racism to express itself - but you need to use more temperate language if you want a substantive discussion.
- kennyadam 4y ago
  Strongly agree. As the THC percentage has increased, so has my anxiety when I smoke it. If I go out of my way to find lower quality weed, I enjoy it much more.
  - Eddy_Viscosity2 4y ago
    Hopefully the canabis producers will see the low (by todays standards) THC level weed as having its own niche and market it accordingly. Like 'light beer'.
    - BrianOnHN 4y ago
      I wonder how alcohol would look of people were so incompetent that they would drink vodka by the pint, like beer! Seriously, if you smoke a joint of high-grade then you're doing it wrong.
      - wahnfrieden 4y ago
        High-grade joints are a popular product in Canada
        BrianOnHN 4y ago
        Source?
        wahnfrieden 4y ago
        you can look it up yourself
        BrianOnHN 4y ago
        wahnfrieden 4y ago
- mschuster91 4y ago
  > I just wish that we would take measures to avoid the ever increasing levels of THC dosage in weed to insane levels, like you see in the US or California specifically. The trick is to educate consumers. And yes today's pot is way stronger than what people used to smoke back in the 80s, but people also don't smoke a handful of joints but one or two... for me, that argument is a bit of a scapegoat.
- frereubu 4y ago
  I remember this happening even during the mid-1990s while I was at university. At the beginning there would be a lot more giggling after smoking, but as things like skunk started replacing the milder stuff it evolved into a more stupefied feeling. I stopped smoking weed soon afterwards as I couldn't seem to get hold of the lighter strains and hated the feeling of the stronger ones. [Edited to remove a badly-worded piece of anecdata that probably wasn't pertinent].
- wishfish 4y ago
  Do weed shops in legal states not have "light" options? Seems weird if they didn't, but I guess that might be a side effect of recent legalization. That the heavy stuff sells better to consumers who used to take whatever they could find back in the black market days. Anyways, I'm asking because I unfortunately live in a state where it's still illegal.
  - bitxbitxbitcoin 4y ago
    Generally they do not. The ones that are also medical dispensaries are more likely to but it isn’t a guarantee.
    - hobs 4y ago
      Most California dispensaries I have been to absolutely have low dosage 5mg options, they also stock 100mg options, but stores listen to the market and stock based on what they can get and what people want. It was very typical to see older folks and very light smokers to request the smaller dosages. They also seemed to trend towards vapes in the younger lighter smokers because the dosage can be fairly small.
      - pcthrowaway 4y ago
        Yeah, I've bought weed in Cali once, didn't have any problem at all finding CBD strains which are low THC (most would consider it trace amounts). Finding a strain with 0 THC (since I'm pretty sensitive and don't enjoy THC at all) is a bit harder.
        hobs 4y ago
        Yeah, that would definitely be difficult, as far as I saw you could get CBD powder at various places if you wanted to just add a little to a drink or do a dab.
        samatman 4y ago
        The good news is, since 0 THC strains are legal everywhere in the US, you can just buy them online. They don't show up in dispensaries much, because why go through all the hassle to meet regulations on a product which doesn't have to meet those regulations, unless they're being sold at a dispensary?
- DoingIsLearning 4y ago
  Maybe a stupid question but are there any cannabis variants which are agreed on as the 'wild'/ original cannabis? I can see that being used by sellers as a marketing claim for health benefits in a not so distant future?
  - thebeastie 4y ago
    There are, they are called “landraces”, but you have the problem of replicating the original genetics with a dwindling / deteriorating supply of old seeds. Or if it’s not that, trusting that what you are buying is actually what it advertised.
  - h2odragon 4y ago
    There's ditchweed everywhere almost. It's been influenced by domesticated varieties but after a couple years a patch will be pretty well back to "landrace" and potency will depend on how much predation and insect load it gets.
  - wonderwonder 4y ago
    Strain called Durban Poison is supposed to be one, relatively common to find in dispensaries. I actually got some yesterday so I know what I am doing Saturday night :) Interesting read on the subject: https://dutch-passion.com/en/blog/what-are-cannabis-landrace-strains-n1006#:~:text=Landrace%20strains%20are%20the%20original,phenotypes%20in%20the%20landrace%20strains https://dutch-passion.com/en/blog/what-are-cannabis-landrace....
- deleted 4y ago
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- numerik_meister 4y ago
  - darkerside 4y ago
    s/*/That's interesting. I've never thought about what positive effects there might be. Can you expand?/g
    - numerik_meister 4y ago
      I did not intend to ask a question. I know for sure that a lot of potheads really want to push their recreational drug as a miracle do all drug, while ignoring all the negative effects. The negative effects are well documented science. The positive effects are all vaporous claims from questionable studies. Really goes to show the objectivity of HN, that I get downvoted for this.
      - lbotos 4y ago
        You are getting downvoted for your dogmatic and set in your ways views. HN is a place for curiosity and your responses are not increasing curiosity they are closing it off.
        numerik_meister 4y ago
        I have read the countless studies blog spammed on Reddit and HN for the past 15 years, and formed my opinion accordingly. How is that at all dogmatic?
      - nicoburns 4y ago
        It's worth noting that almost all medicinal drugs have negative effects. Certainly there are people who promote cannabis as a cure-all, and that's pretty ridiculous. But it's equally ridiculous to assume that it has no medicinal uses. You even mention one (pain relief) in your comment!
      - andybak 4y ago
- lucideer 4y ago
  While I'm not proposing "doing nothing" about this problem, how much of this is likely to be a "hangover" from prohibition. Based on absolutely no data whatsoever, my instinct would be that demand for high-THC/low-CBD products would decrease as access to cannabis becomes less novel.
  - deleted 4y ago
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  - nerdponx 4y ago
    My intuition is similar, especially as older and less "drug oriented" users continue to enter the market. In Massachusetts, a lot of dispensaries show the THC level, and I usually just buy the one with the lowest content.
  - jgtrosh 4y ago
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6312155/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6312155/ > without any clear guidelines or regulations from government officials, the cannabis industry has taken a page from the tobacco and alcohol industries’ play book and developed strains of marijuana and concentrated marijuana products with much higher concentrations of THC, the psychoactive component that causes addiction. The more potent a drug is, the stronger the possibility of addiction and the more likely the person will continue to purchase and use the product. Doesn't seem like there's any incentive to reduce potency.
    - lucideer 4y ago
      I opened with "I'm not proposing doing nothing" - I do think measures to remediate this problem in the short term are a good idea, in line with the fears outlined in your article. Nothing in your article tackles my main point though? > the cannabis industry has taken a page from the tobacco and alcohol industries’ play book As a slightly off-topic aside: tobacco I'm less familiar with (I wasn't aware of efforts by the industry to grow strains of the plants with higher nicotine content but it seems unsurprising), but including alcohol here is bizarre. Alcohol isn't naturally occurring in harvested produce - it's an output from a process. And even then, maybe they're talking about distillation, but that process predates the industrial revolution by 100s maybe 1000s of years. Tbh this throwaway statement kinda makes me question the article...
- snarfy 4y ago
  When I lived in Arizona before it was legal, the vast majority of weed came from Mexico. A quarter pound cost $200 and was a mix of male and female plants, full of seeds, grown in fields. I was a daily user for about 20 years. I moved to coastal state where it was legal. Now it's all hydroponically grown, all female and all seedless. I was a daily user for about 12 years and had to completely stop using it. It would always help my stomach if I had stomach problems, but eventually I had stomach problems daily and the only fix was more weed. It turns out the weed was the cause of and solution to all my problems. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabinoid_hyperemesis_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabinoid_hyperemesis_syndro...
  - saiya-jin 4y ago
    Maybe I am off, but when drawing from my 25 years of consumption and trying most of variants - outdoor, indoor, low potency, extreme dutch ones and everything in between, local hash in morocco, india and nepal, homemade milk, cookies, vaping and oil vaping; eating and oil vaping are most potent to me, joint least potent and I avoid them if possible. I don't like eating due to very long ramp up and it last for too long for casual evening, it may be great summer weekend festival item. What I want to say - even most potent oil vapes regardless of sativa/indica/cbd mix, it was just about dosage. 1 hit was a pleasant light trip, 2 was a nice strong one, 3 really strong but manageable for simple stuff. I once had 6 draws while walking in village & forest - I really went far away form this reality, hypnotizing street lights, dancing on empty streets. Couldn't trust myself which normally never ever happens on weed. It ended up OK somehow but oh boy beware. If one doesn't have any self control, it may cause issue - till it hits you fully (which is cca 5 mins with vape oil, unlike ie joint/pipe which is almost immediate), you may have already taken too much. But that would be the problem with hard alcohol too, there its more like 30 mins and we all have seen enough shitfaced folks in our lives who took too many shots too fast. So education, explanation - potency, indica/sativa mixing, literally learning consumption of cannabis and products. Its not complex but it ain't primitive linear alcohol 'high' (or more like low) regardless of type of drink. I still consider oil vapes the best product for me, chirurgically precise amount of high, very convenient, and very reproducible once you are familiar with given strain.
- SomeBoolshit 4y ago
  Just mix it with CBD-weed to get the overall THC content down.
- hopefulengineer 4y ago
- clsec 4y ago
  I'll just leave these here for anyone who wants to know the truth about cannabis testing. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/americas-pot-labs-have-a-thc-problem/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/americas-pot-labs-have-... https://www.leafly.com/news/strains-products/lab-shopping-thc-inflation-marijuana-2019-leafly-review https://www.leafly.com/news/strains-products/lab-shopping-th...
- gallexme 4y ago
  I do hope they keep strong strains tho, I use a herb vape, n u love to only vape around 25mg of bud n get high, way less irritation
- m0llusk 4y ago
  Higher concentrations allow people to use less material. That higher concentrations cause harm is not clearly established. There are always people who will manage to misuse and hurt themselves with anything, even Hacker News.
  - zug_zug 4y ago
    Yup. You can always just take 1/24th of a gummy, I know plenty of people who do that weekly at least.
- krylon 4y ago
  If you legalize it, you can regulate the THC content by legalizing only weed with a maximum THC concentration, and/or by taxing it based on THC levels.
- humbleMouse 4y ago
- peanut_worm 4y ago
  You can still find lower THC cannabis at any dispensary. Most carry from 10 to 30%. Most also carry CBD flower and very low dose edibles. I also don’t understand this argument because you can just take 1 hit and be done. No one is forcing you to finish a whole joint. Should liquor be outlawed because it is stronger than beer?
  - standardUser 4y ago
    It's really hard to dose "1 hit". It's not like a shot of liquor. And inexperienced users are not experts at hitting pipes or vapes or joints, so that "1 hit" becomes even trickier. And if you fuck up, whoops, now you're uncomfortably high for several hours! Better to have a much wider variety of potencies available, like we have with alcohol. Especially for the casual users who have been ignored by the market because traditional dealers get most of their money from heavy users, and heavy users want the chronic.
    - TillE 4y ago
      You can literally just measure the amount of flower you're consuming before you start, either with a precise scale or by pinching out a tiny amount. Use a good vaporizer or a cheap glass pipe.
      - standardUser 4y ago
        Sure, that is something you can say to an experienced marijuana user, but the casual dude who hasn't smoked weed since college and just wants to smoke a joint... that dude just wants to smoke a joint! There is no need for scales or precision to be involved. All that is needed is some low-to-moderate-potency weed, hopefully with some CBD content. "Use a good vaporizer or a cheap glass pipe." You do realize that a lot of people don't really know how to use those devices, right? Why anyone would argue against more variety of weed with better labelling is way beyond my comprehension.
        johnisgood 4y ago
- adamsmith143 4y ago
  >[1]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6312155/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6312155/ This is an opinion piece written by a Psychiatrist. Hardly conclusive or convincing. Also focuses on teen use so not sure it has much relevance for the vast majority of users in Legal jurisdictions.
  - selfmodruntime 4y ago
    In retrospect yea, my source is bad. There are certainly better ones forming the same conclusion.
- noneeeed 4y ago
  One option would be to tax it based on the amount of thc. Get the rates right and you could make it more profitable to produce less potent stuff.
  - deleted 4y ago
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- standardUser 4y ago
  The solution to this is a legal marketplace. I was able to start buying lower-potency weed in California as soon as recreational stores became established. Now, I'm waiting around for the same in NY and buying weed that is way too strong in the meantime. A joint as 10-15% THC with some CBD is an entirely different experience than the 25% and up THC that most dealers sell (and that's usually all they sell).
- alistairSH 4y ago
  How does this apply with edibles or oils? I assume since most of those are sold with a published THC level, there's an incentive to produce stronger plant? Less plant for more edible/oil/whatever?
- mensetmanusman 4y ago
  It’s a hard problem because any regulations increase cost to consumers and increase the likelihood that the black market still exists. The black market is alive and well in the U.S. where it is legal.
  - bombcar 4y ago
    Black markets that are already setup take a bit to knock down, and even just taxes can keep them running for years (there's a moderately strong black market for cigarettes, for example). For things that are NOT in the process of being banned entirely, sin taxes may do more harm than good.
    - mensetmanusman 4y ago
      It does take some effort to knock down, but I think the failed war on drugs will mean that there will be little to no effort to knock anything down and therefore we will have the worst of both worlds.
- Fnoord 4y ago
  My aunt made her own hash oil (legally, from NL). It was for the CBD, her husband (my uncle) had cancer. She grew her own. This way, it is more or less standardized. Standardization is a problem with decriminalized and illegal drugs.
- wonderwonder 4y ago
  I think experienced users know how much they can smoke and are equipped to make rational decisions. I buy weed in the 15%-19% thc range. I know if I share a bowl with my wife then after that bowl we are good for whatever we want to do that night as long as we are home. I smoke far less if I am leaving the house and interacting with people, then I limit it to 2 hits off the one hitter. This is because of experience though, I know my limits and what I am attempting to accomplish. The issue is individuals who equate weed with a harmless drug. It is harmless in that you are virtually guaranteed not to die from it but if you over do it things can be rough. Never understood why people feel the need to start with 3 or 4 hits of something they have never tried before. Take a hit, relax. See how you do. If its your first time, then that's it, next time depending on your experience try 2 hits. No need to start at maximum. You need the slow increases over days to understand your limits, experience comes with time. Its like trying alcohol for the first time, taking a shot of everclear and 5 minutes later deciding it had no effect so you take another shot. Its not a good idea.
  - deleted 4y ago
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- augstein 4y ago
  I would recommend to consume only low THC + high CBD strains.(1) For me the difference of these strains to some of the modern high THC + low CBD ones is comparable to drinking a good glass of wine versus chugging down some highly potent moonshine. Some moderns strains are completely overbred and dangerous to some people in my experience.(2) Knowing the Germans, I‘m optimistic, they‘ll regulate it properly, so that everything you will be able to buy legally, should be quite safe. 1) https://greatist.com/health/high-cbd-low-thc#_noHeaderPrefixedContent https://greatist.com/health/high-cbd-low-thc#_noHeaderPrefix... 2) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabinoid_hyperemesis_syndrome https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabinoid_hyperemesis_synd...
zwarag 4y ago
Are there any European weed stocks?
- rbinv 4y ago
  No, but Tilray ($TLRY) has operations in Germany and Portugal (for medical cannabis). Their potential moat with regards to the recreational market depends on the licensing rules to come.
- adrianN 4y ago
  You probably want to invest in companies growing other things hydroponically. The skillset should allow them to quickly enter the cannabis market.
jokethrowaway 4y ago
That's great, a sliver of more freedom in the world - and long overdue. Hopefully this will allow the police to do something about crime which is becoming a huge issue in Europe (probably thanks to lockdowns, recession, uncontrolled immigration). I hope it catches on everywhere else but I'm definitely not going to buy their overpriced and overtaxed products - I'll just buy seeds and grow it for personal use.
- barrucadu 4y ago
  Why would lockdowns encourage crime?
- Xylakant 4y ago
  > Hopefully this will allow the police to do something about crime which is becoming a huge issue in Europe (probably thanks to lockdowns, recession, uncontrolled immigration). Definitely not everywhere in Europe - the PKS in germany shows declining levels of crime (+) as well as for violent crimes (++) since 2017 until 2021. Now, this statistics need to be read carefully since they track what‘s been _reported_ to the police with no further investigation, so there are various statistical effects to take into account when reading them (+++), but they do provide a good idea of the overall trend. If crime were becoming a huge issue in germany, one would expect an uptick in reported crimes, but that‘s not visible anywhere in the stats. (+) https://www.bka.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/Publikationen/PolizeilicheKriminalstatistik/2021/BundesdatenDelikte/02_StraftatenInsgesamtOhneAuslaenderrechtBRD.pdf%3Bjsessionid=04E3114F9E4974A5DC6272F4D7799B93.live612?__blob=publicationFile&v=3 https://www.bka.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/Publikationen/Pol... (++) https://www.bka.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/Publikationen/PolizeilicheKriminalstatistik/2021/BundesdatenDelikte/13_GewaltkriminalitaetBRD.pdf%3Bjsessionid=04E3114F9E4974A5DC6272F4D7799B93.live612?__blob=publicationFile&v=3 https://www.bka.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/Publikationen/Pol... (+++) for example, it‘s much more likely that immigrants get reported after a street/bar fight than native Germans. Another example is that rape and sexual harassment are underreported, but the willingness to report is rising, so it‘s currently not exactly clear what produces the rise in the stats.
fabian2k 4y ago
Germany has lots of borders to several european countries, once it is legal here there is probably no realistic way to efficiently control the transfer across borders.
- stefan_ 4y ago
  Because right now we are perfectly in control of illicit drug transfers across borders.
- mtlmtlmtlmtl 4y ago
  Not that there ever was in the first place...
- orangepurple 4y ago
  They could technically leave the European Union Customs Union (EUCU), stay in the EU, and continue to be a part of the Schengen Area. Then more products could be controlled at the borders. I never said it would be a good idea.
- romanovcode 4y ago
  The only difference will be that the weed will be bought legally. What you're implying is already happening for decades.
- deleted 4y ago
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- briffle 4y ago
  The largest volume dipensary in the state of Oregon is just a few miles from the Idaho border, where its still illegal, and only 45 min from Boise.
noodlesUK 4y ago
I hope they eventually do this in the UK. Weed is basically not illegal if you’re relatively well off and white. I’ve seen a number of cops just take the weed away from a rich uni student or similar and bin it with no further action taken, but if you’re not, criminal charges await. Making it decriminalised would solve that disparity of treatment.
- Tenoke 4y ago
  Eh, I've smoked near cops in London as a poor immigrant student and they've at best given me a stare or a few words. It depends on the cop but generally they are pretty lenient with non-dealers.
  - deleted 4y ago
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- blackhaz 4y ago
  I really hope so as well. Black market weed in UK sucks. I've moved here recently and all the stuff I was able to get was dry deodorized skunk grown on chemicals - really sad state. It stinks a mile away, it's not fresh, you literally can feel there's something added to it that shouldn't be there. I stopped using cannabis completely at this point.
- BrianOnHN 4y ago
  Not sure why your comment is down-voted, because this is true in the US, too.
  - rovek 4y ago
    I would suggest because the sentiment is a trite misrepresentation of people's experiences across multiple facets. Throughout the summer you'll smell weed constantly if you're out and about and never see anyone so much as approached by any nearby police, regardless of who they are. Edit: UK, I can't speak for the US
- frereubu 4y ago
hans1729 4y ago
Wording: Germany will not legalise Cannabis. Maybe it will be decriminalized, but there is basically no chance of legalisation (too complex/expensive of a process). I have no reason to trust the SPD that they will deliver on this, they are the infamous poster child for betrayal. They are the kind of party that would sell their entire voting base if it served the acting politicians individual careers. If they will do it, then it will be leveraged to the max, right before the next critical election.
- mschuster91 4y ago
  Agreed on the idiocy of the SPD ("wer hat uns verraten? Sozialdemokraten")... but this time, the Justice Ministry belongs to the FDP. They have alienated an awful lot of voters with their effective denial of reasonable covid measures, they'd be completely done for if they would not manage to get cannabis legal-ish enough that people can buy cannabis products in stores and smoke on the streets without fearing arrest. We have elections in Bavaria and Hessen in 2023, the FDP will need at least something to show off, and cannabis is the easiest thing to pass, particularly as the Greens and parts of the SPD have long fought for it.
  - hans1729 4y ago
    advocatus diaboli: the FDP has a long track record of advocating for legalisation and then voting against it or abstain in parliamentary elections. Their core clientel are small business owners and (other) anti-regulation folk, I strongly doubt that they lose big margins of voters due to their covid policy, maybe even the opposite is the case. Point being: if the FDP is the reason to have faith in this, I'm not feeling much more confident than before.
  - 2-718-281-828 4y ago
    > They have alienated an awful lot of voters with their effective denial of reasonable covid measures they also won a number of sympathizers ... and "reasonable measures" - what a funny moment to write that nonsense.
    - 4y ago
adriand 4y ago
> Canada has made some progress since legalisation in 2018, but through a regionally varied patchwork of free-market and state-controlled supply systems that makes it hard to draw broad lessons This strikes me as an odd claim. Each province has its own approach, and the provinces are large. Wouldn’t having varying approaches among different large regions be perfect for drawing lessons?
- hans1729 4y ago
  Not with respect to the country as a whole. 'broad' is the key term in the sentence you quoted.
- ttul 4y ago
  It had to be this way. Provinces determine how alcohol and tobacco are sold within their borders; it would have been strange for cannabis distribution to be federally regulated. Some useful comparisons can indeed be drawn. Quebec launched with a very restrictive distribution model. BC was quite liberal. The latter province has fared much better in terms of squeezing out profits for organized crime. There are virtually no unauthorized cannabis shops in the province and very little black market activity relative to pre-legalization. Keep distribution straightforward and analogous to how tobacco and alcohol are sold, and keep taxes on cannabis low to cut out profits for the black market.
  - newsclues 4y ago
    Some of the most successful BC stores are run by people still brokering in the black market.
coldcode 4y ago
While I have no interest in weed, I never understood why people are against it, since cigarettes are also a drug and are far more damaging to heath and the economy, and in the US kills a couple hundred thousand folks a year, or alcohol, which is a drug, and kills tens of thousands of people a year. Eliminating illegality would save in so many ways, and taxes could help offset other taxes. But no, weed is somehow more terrible...
- Hamuko 4y ago
  What if I'm against weed, cigarettes and alcohol?
  - jcbrand 4y ago
    Then don't use them.
    - Hamuko 4y ago
      I don't use any of them. Doesn't mean that I'm not affected by the harmful effects of them.
      - dymk 4y ago
        Particularly weed, what negative externalities do you experience?
        Hamuko 4y ago
        Not that many at the moment, considering that it's an illegal substance and <2% of the population consumes weed monthly (<0.2% daily), meaning that it's consumed a lot less than cigarettes (approximately 12% of the population between 20 and 64 smoke daily). It's also primarily used by young people here, meaning that long-term effects are not yet visible. But obviously there are health factors to consider with smoking weed (heart infarcts, lung issues/cancer, mental health issues, etc) that will be subsidized by the rest of the society. I'm also concerned about the affects of weed on driving if it becomes legal and its consumption increases, as alcohol is involved in every fourth fatal car accident and weed increases risk factors for car crashes.
wickedsight 4y ago
The Netherlands will be especially impacted by this. We refused actual legalization for many reasons, many of which will be invalidated by Germany decriminalizing. Our current stance on weed is so confusing that it's hard to explain to any foreigner, but strictly speaking weed isn't legal and not even decriminalized... But yes, Amsterdam is in The Netherlands.
- danielbln 4y ago
  Nitpick: Germany is poised to legalize and not just decriminialize, which is an important distinction.
  - donkeyd 4y ago
    No problem. I read another comment that said it would not be legalized. But now that I read the responses to that comment I feel like I probably shouldn't have taken that comment as the truth.
  - dr_dshiv 4y ago
    Germany is poised to tax that shit. Finally.
  - runeks 4y ago
    If it’s an important distinction then it’s not a nitpick :-)
- htkibar 4y ago
  In all fairness, it isn't like we want people to come as tourists here to smoke weed or something so should be fine no? For anyone else wanting to know more about the Dutch policy on this: https://www.government.nl/topics/drugs/toleration-policy-regarding-soft-drugs-and-coffee-shops https://www.government.nl/topics/drugs/toleration-policy-reg...
  - tommit 4y ago
    Quick question for our Dutch neighbors: why not? I never understood why it is exactly that The Netherlands were kind of against the drug tourism. I mean, I'm sure your average pot head tourist is not that much trouble and leaves quite a bit of money, no? I studied in The Netherlands and always thought I'd be proud as a country to be that "progressive" in a sense -- especially once it became clear that other countries were following.
mikro2nd 4y ago
In South Africa Cannabis has been legal for personal use in "places where you have an expectation of privacy" (but selling is still illegal) for several years now. So far the world has not ended, the country doesn't sit around stoned all day and we're not all hooked on Heroin. There's talk of introducing legislation to restrict quantities (government has plenty of securicrat control freaks), but since that violates the very principles which underpinned the Constitutional Court's overturning the legislation that made weed illegal in the first place, I can't see it going very far.
Tade0 4y ago
My high school classmate and, coincidentally, my SO's friend from college is currently doing time for "possession of large amounts of marijuana" - 19g to be specific. He used to be a local weed dealer and while he knew what he was getting into and was consciously breaking the law at the time, after his first arrest a few years ago he stopped and got a regular job. He only got involved with the court again because one acquaintance of his was charged with drug dealing and figured he could lessen his sentence by giving the authorities someone else to prosecute. All in all a person who could otherwise continue to be a productive member of society has to spend two years in prison now.
- rbinv 4y ago
  What's the state where this happened?
  - Tade0 4y ago
    Not in the US. Poland.
- subpixel 4y ago
  I have a high-school friend in prison for 20+ years for marijuana-related charges. I now live in a recreationally legal state, the irony is not lost on me.
  - iinnPP 4y ago
    US prisons are absolutely packed with young marijuana dealers/users with effectively lifetime sentences. Many of them are truly good people.
    - rainworld 4y ago
      A small fraction is in for possession only, and even that is misleading considering the prevalence of plea deals and career criminals.
      - 4y ago
Findecanor 4y ago
I find it crazy to decriminalise a drug in smoked form. It is often through second-hand smoke in social situations that people get addicted to a smoked drug before they start using it themselves. I'm afraid that that would lead to more addiction. Personally, I don't have anything against it being ingested in other forms: such as "magic" brownies or vaping that don't affect other people around you.
- rsynnott 4y ago
  > It is through second-hand smoke that people get addicted to a smoked drug before they start using it themselves Eh? No, that's not generally the major concern about passive smoking; not sure where you got that from.
  - Findecanor 4y ago
    Not being what more people are concerned about does not mean that it does not happen. Although, I'll concede that cannabis is much less addictive compared to tobacco, for which this is how most smokers are made.
    - bmicraft 4y ago
      Second hand smoke is not how most smokers are made for _any_ drug. Generally that's peer pressure, but I see how those could be mixed up (being around smokers).
      - bennovw 4y ago
        Yep, don't blame the second hand smoke, blame your own "first hand" desire to conform to the social norms and behavior of your peer group. This is why you should choose your friends very carefully.
- ClumsyPilot 4y ago
  > I find it crazy to decriminalise a drug that is supposed to be smoked. It is through second-hand smoke that people get addicted to a smoked drug I can testify that as a child with a habitual smoker in the house, of ordinary cigarettes, it was kinda terrible. All our clothes would smell of tabacco, and teachers at school were convinced me and my brother are smokers. after being tortured by cigarette smoke for a decate, we find them repulsive and have never touched them. so it runs contrary to my experience, and i never heard of anyone aquiring addiction through 2nd hand smoking, but it can be damaging to the wholw familt.
yrgulation 4y ago
This is excellent news. Once Germany legalises it, other countries will likely be _forced_ to follow suit.
Shadonototra 4y ago
This is the worst idea ever The American lobby strikes again, they now control the whole industry and let their domestic market grow for years, they are ready to use EU as their market, yet again On top of making their population even more dumb What a sad and funest faith for Europe
- bmicraft 4y ago
  You think Germany, a country that already grows weed for medical purposes, will start importing massive amounts of weed from outside the EU?
  - Shadonototra 4y ago
    EU used to make many things, it also used to have a strong telecom industry ;)
DrBazza 4y ago
- mhh__ 4y ago
  And a decrease in alcohols huge burden on society?
- opabinia 4y ago
  Should we criminalize chocolate bars and hamburgers as well then?
  - OscarDC 4y ago
    The answer to the concern of potential health issue of cannabis legalization is almost always "what about [this other bad product with some common effects], should we forbid it too?" This argument always sounds like a fallacy to me, as we're talking about legalizing something that was previously not, not the other way around. I get that the argument might be seen as relativizing by providing examples of legal substances everybody agree today should be legal, but the way this answer (and others) is always presented sounds to me excessively aggressive and non-productive. If you want to make a point, please make it, don't just stop at this absurd proposition. --- Some people (I'm not even included in that group as I don't really care about this issue) seem very concerned about the global health implications of cannabis legalization. Instead of aggressively diminishing this opinion with whataboutisms, legalizing proponents motivated enough to answer to this person should IMO better take into consideration (and respect) this opinion.
    - samatman 4y ago
      The fallacy is presuming, wrongly, that the legal status of a substance has any bearing on whether it should be legal. It's called assuming the consequent.
    - gwbas1c 4y ago
      > Instead of aggressively diminishing this opinion with whataboutisms, legalizing proponents motivated enough to answer to this person should IMO better take into consideration (and respect) this opinion. Regarding the US: We already experimented with alcohol prohibition. It failed for the same reasons that marijuana prohibition failed. (I believe Europe did the same thing, but I'm less familiar with its history.) You're advocating for a "nanny state" law. These are difficult in democracies. In the US, we see debates about similar issues: Some people want to ban guns, some people want to ban abortion, some people want to ban bad drivers, some people want to require helmets for XXX. Nanny state laws only pass in the US when the politicians who pass them know they will get re-elected. (IE, the US has some areas with very restrictive alcohol laws, because the people in that area believe drinking is a sin.)
seper8 4y ago
Hope so. Here in the Netherlands we've fallen hilariously behind. It's illegal to produce weed with the intention to sell, but legal to sell. At the same time it's illegal to have a large inventory. So criminals make large amounts of cash by illegally growing weed. And cops have to waste their time dealing with these guys. Eventually these guys grow up and start with the more profitable stuff such as cocaine & mdma. Next step is to start ripping off other criminals, threatening local businessmen who dont want to hide your cocaine in their fruit imports...
- htkibar 4y ago
  Well - not really. It is not legal to sell it is just "tolerated". Which is I guess making your point even further?
- Nextgrid 4y ago
  > cops have to waste their time dealing with these guys. Maybe they don't "waste" their time, and instead enjoy job security and an endless supply of easy crimes to solve? I suspect law enforcement is a big reason why drug legalization is hard.
  - seper8 4y ago
    Probably... Also suspect they fear that these guys will move on to different forms of crime to make money instead. Crime that will actually do more damage to society.
spacemanmatt 4y ago
The stronger stuff is simply higher bang for the buck, and in today's economy that matters more than everything else. It's too bad consumers are so disconnected from producers due to the legal situation, or else they might see a regular response to demand for more balanced buds.
sk8terboi 4y ago
Storm-Bringer 4y ago
Can it be enjoyed by some ways other than smoking? Not trying to troll here, its smell honestly makes me want to vomit.
- redisman 4y ago
  Edibles and vaporizing are essentially smell free
- gwbas1c 4y ago
  2nd to edibles. As soon as I had legal access to edibles, I switched to edibles almost 100% exclusively. It's much easier to just pop a candy in my mouth than to pack up a bong or vape. (And there's no smell to deal with, which is useful with children around.) The dosage control is significantly easier than smoking. Where I live, the amounts of psychoactive chemicals per dose are printed on the packaging. Just make sure you start with one (or a half) dose, and wait 2-3 hours before you take any more. Also, if you want a "smoking" experience, without the smoke, vaping does come close. FYI: With vaping it's super-easy to get an overwhelming dose, so be careful.
- newsclues 4y ago
  It’s also a great pain cream for topical use. As well as vapour, or edibles/drinks.
mytailorisrich 4y ago
> "European countries that have a much bigger problem with illegal cannabis use, like France, are watching very closely what Germany is doing at the moment." The criminal activities and gang wars linked to cannabis trafficking in France are huge. It's a shame that France never took action either on legalisation or on crime... I am not sure that whatever Germany does will have much impact in France, though.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- olabyne 4y ago
  I live in Marseille, famous for being home of the illegal traffic. In the poorest suburbs, there is dozens of 'drive through' spots, where the criminals are very friendly to the customers, almost like regular business, while being well alert for any police raid. It is a cat and mouse game, where the police only manages to catch kids, and the sell spot just spawns at another appartment-building. IMO, the french government is blind to think it can fight cannabis traffic by trying to stop the ilegal offer. France is number one consumer of cannabis in europe, so the demand will always create another traffic, unless you counteract with legal, and regulated offer.
  - mytailorisrich 4y ago
    I know, 'cousin' ;) > It is a cat and mouse game, where the police only manages to catch kids They only 'manage' to catch what they want to catch considering government's policy over several decades... If they actually wanted to end this it would be ended in under a month. That's one of the big problems in France: Many of those neighbourhoods and criminal activities have been left to fester for decades without anything being actually done, so things just keep getting worse, politicians keep being 'shocked' without doing anything, and round we go.
k__ 4y ago
Boohoo, I just found out I'm allergic to cannabis.
aikah 4y ago
It's crazy we are still having these kind of debates in Europe. 20 years ago most youth around 18/20 thought Cannabis would have already been legalised by now, I don't believe one second that any of the European elected official under 50 never smoked pot. The only possible explanation I see is heavy lobbying from big pharma groups or wine interests.
- ketzu 4y ago
  > I don't believe one second that any of the European elected official under 50 never smoked pot. To be honest, just the very first statistics I could find on the topic, I didn't put any effort in looking it up at all: https://www.emcdda.europa.eu/system/files/publications/753/emcdda-daily-cannabis-use-2012_400271.pdf https://www.emcdda.europa.eu/system/files/publications/753/e... says the following > In the 2012 EMCDDA Annual report, it is conservatively estimated that cannabis has been used at least once (lifetime prevalence) by around 80.5 million Europeans: almost one in four of all 15- to 64-year-olds. This matches my personal experience (currently mid 30s in Germany) a lot closer, unless politicans are vastly more likely to smoke pot (or pot smokers vastly more likely to go into politics) I have a hard time imagining your estimate is even close to true.
- jotm 4y ago
  A couple of things that I'm sad about: there are medications better than cannabis for anxiety and depression. But no one talks about them. They're on the same level as alcohol and weed when it comes to addiction potential and harm. Just make them legal ffs. I'm really happy I can get them from pharmacies in my country because they're not on a restricted prescription so they just give them to you if you pinky promise that you have/had a prescription. That said, it's technically illegal. And 2: holy shit eastern European states are dumb. They are missing out on billions in sales and tourism by not legalizing cannabis alone. And now western states will legalize it and reap all the benefits. Watch how eastern states just keep complaining about the brain drain, workforce drain, money problems while doing nothing effective to combat it. Just cheap places to build factories and buy homes for retirement. Great job.
  - schroeding 4y ago
ta988 4y ago
I'm in the US. It is really hard to see clever people around me using their almost pure THC at high doses. I can clearly see the negative impact coming much faster than people I know that smoked lots of lower concentration for decades. I see them having all kind of functional issues (memory, motivation, crippling anxiety when not high). And there is no way to talk to them about these negative effects. Mainly because they have been deeply brainwashed to believe that the overall effect is always positive and that all criticisms are a conspiracy by people with war on drugs level agendas. As much as I tend to believe that low amounts can have benefits, both functional and social, what I see from this trend of heavy use of high potency material is clearly not going that way.
humanistbot 4y ago
> The hemp industry is lobbying the German government to tax cannabis products at no more than €10 a gramme of bud This is double the street cost of the product. The black market will thrive.
- TillE 4y ago
  Yeah this is absurdly high, and a really bad sign if that's what the industry is asking for. My real hope for the law is that small-scale home growing will be allowed, but I'm not very optimistic.
- selfmodruntime 4y ago
  What? No way this is true
piffey 4y ago
Personally can't wait for the equivalent of Appellation d'origine contrôlée for weed. "It's not Champagne Double Cork Kush unless it comes from the Champagne region." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appellation_d%27origine_contr%C3%B4l%C3%A9e https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appellation_d%27origine_contr%...
- newsclues 4y ago
  Fighting over who owns genetics is already happening
  - xcambar 4y ago
    AOC is not about genetics, it's about land, for the most part.
- mhrmsn 4y ago
  This made my day - Merci beaucoup!
- MonkeyMalarky 4y ago
  British Columbia should get in on that and have BC Bud protected.
eternalban 4y ago
[Serious question (pot smoker myself)] Has there ever been a successful civilization that had incorporated use of cannabis in general society? I am not talking about some priestly caste using it for tripping, divining, or making up scripture, I mean like the use of alcohol which actually apparently was a key factor in emergence of urban civilizations. Related question is: do we know of any civilization that collapsed after embracing cannabis?
- ellopoppit 4y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_cannabis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_cannabis
- erikpukinskis 4y ago
  > Has there ever been a successful civilization that had incorporated use of cannabis in general society? California?
vmoore 4y ago
I can't smoke high THC strains. I need high concentrates of CBD since it takes the energetic edge off the THC, and CBD is a natural anti-psychotic. This is why I prefer hashish over dried leaves, since most hashish has a good ratio of CBD to THC. Moroccan '00' is my favorite.
diebeforei485 4y ago
The concentrated stuff should require a prescription IMO. But there shouldn't be restrictions on edibles in the 5mg-10mg range.
elif 4y ago
For context, the proposed limit of 10 euro / gram taxation is the average total price in Amsterdam coffeeshops. So it would be an effective 100% tax rate. California taxes at 15% and still only manages about 60-70% control of the market. If their goal is regulation, I think they will need to chill a little on the taxes.
yc-kraln 4y ago
Coming a bit late to the party, but one aspect of this is that there is already massive usage of cannabis in Germany, and in many areas quite a significant amount is decriminalized. In recent years, however, crappy cannabis adulterated with synthetic cannaboids have become pervasive--they're inferior to the real stuff, addictive, and deeply connected with organized crime. Legalization will likely result in a safer supply for everyone, while also removing a huge money source for criminals.
- pimeys 4y ago
  It's funny how different it is between regions here. In Berlin you smell it everywhere on the streets and in the bars. In Munich, if you're caught smoking, the police gets quite interested. It's obvious how it's going to be legal in Berlin, I'm just wondering how it's going to look like in other places of Germany...
aurizon 4y ago
Here in Canada a strange thing happened - all these weed shops openedu, wanting to see at $10/gram. They got some business but had rent, taxes, government added taxes etc - half went broke because the guvmint treated it like a cash cow and though the guvmint would replace the dealers and make big $$. about half people went to them, maybe less. The police stopped bothering with them. Huge grow ops started up on aboriginal lands and sell in aboriginal shops on their lands and many people went there as it was cheaper than the shops. Police had zero interest in stopping hundreds of people as they travelled as most cars held3-4 people buying 25 grams(legal max) = waste of time. dealers walked over land and bought carts full for $800-1000/pound (453 grams) just because the guvmint wanted a cash cow to milk - not seeing that fields full could be grown in the summer for $5-10 a pound. The program stumbles on. Marijuana IPO's are dying like flies in this downturn because the principals simply stole the IPO cash and walked away - now there are dozens of lawsuits of all types. I am a spectator = non smoker of anything!!
- ttul 4y ago
  Another Canadian observer here. The roll out was botched in parts of the country because control over licensing was delegated to provinces and some did a better job than others. British Columbia’s legalization effort has been a resounding success, in so far as there are a plentiful supply of well regulated, pleasant shops pretty much everywhere. And you can buy online easily from the government-owned store — literally it’s a Shopify site. I do not consume cannabis, but here in BC, it has never been difficult to obtain. The difference with legalization is that it’s now just a non-issue. Not sketchy. Not dangerous. It’s just part of the fabric of daily life. Governments like Germany should focus on maximizing access through private distribution much as is the case for alcohol and tobacco. Trying to control the retail end too much will result in a failure.
loufe 4y ago
€10 a gramme of bud.... I don't know about prices in Germany but I can tell you that a lot of the market in Canada would go illegal if taxes were that high here. That is more in taxes than the cost of high quality legal pot in ON/QC.
- selfmodruntime 4y ago
  Street price is 13 in berlin

338 points by samizdis 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

I think the legalization of cannabis in Europe has a lot of potential. I just wish that we would take measures to avoid the ever increasing levels of THC dosage in weed to insane levels, like you see in the US or California specifically. I firmly believe that cannabis can do a lot of good, but the poison is in the dosage. It has been shown in the past that increasing THC while decreasing CBD leads to an increase in negative side effects, some being permanent [1]. Let's see how it'll work out. I also think it's quite funny that the German meme "Bubatz" has made it into the highest levels of our government. [1]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6312155/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6312155/

hef19898 4y ago
One of the benefits of legalization is the possibility to properly regulate the product. If it's black market it's an uncontrolled free for all.
mojzu 4y ago
I think legalisation could help in this regard as long as companies are required to measure/label products appropriately. Similar to how the most popular alcohols during prohibition were spirits, whereas now there's a massive range of drinks at pretty much any alcoholic percentage you want
BrianOnHN 4y ago
- frereubu 4y ago
  I don't really understand how talk about increasing THC levels plays into racism, but perhaps I'm misunderstanding - can you elaborate?
- dpbriggs 4y ago
  Racist? Could you elaborate? It's a public health concern as people are getting addicted.
  - BrianOnHN 4y ago
    You also misread. The other stuff is the racist part. This part, "rising potency", is just a predictable effect of prohibition and "change of literally anything" causes Fear in the noobs. Wake. Up. People.
    - dpbriggs 4y ago
      That could be the an explanation for only having high potency weed in areas where it's prohibited, but it's equally available here in Canada where it's legal. I think people just like it.
      - BrianOnHN 4y ago
        Because all the Canadian weed stays there. Right...
        dpbriggs 4y ago
        I don't think that makes sense? What are you attempting to communicate? I'm saying that high potency products are still sold in legalized areas as there's demand for it. I remember having issues years ago finding low but not non-zero THC products on the government website. I had to get 17% which is still high. Things may be different now.
        frereubu 4y ago
        With respect, it sounds like you're having a bad day, and it's coming over as if you want a fight. I agree with you that prohibition causes all kinds of undesirable effects - including yet another route for racism to express itself - but you need to use more temperate language if you want a substantive discussion.
kennyadam 4y ago
Strongly agree. As the THC percentage has increased, so has my anxiety when I smoke it. If I go out of my way to find lower quality weed, I enjoy it much more.
- Eddy_Viscosity2 4y ago
  Hopefully the canabis producers will see the low (by todays standards) THC level weed as having its own niche and market it accordingly. Like 'light beer'.
  - BrianOnHN 4y ago
    I wonder how alcohol would look of people were so incompetent that they would drink vodka by the pint, like beer! Seriously, if you smoke a joint of high-grade then you're doing it wrong.
    - wahnfrieden 4y ago
      High-grade joints are a popular product in Canada
      - BrianOnHN 4y ago
        Source?
        wahnfrieden 4y ago
        you can look it up yourself
        BrianOnHN 4y ago
        wahnfrieden 4y ago
mschuster91 4y ago
> I just wish that we would take measures to avoid the ever increasing levels of THC dosage in weed to insane levels, like you see in the US or California specifically. The trick is to educate consumers. And yes today's pot is way stronger than what people used to smoke back in the 80s, but people also don't smoke a handful of joints but one or two... for me, that argument is a bit of a scapegoat.
frereubu 4y ago
I remember this happening even during the mid-1990s while I was at university. At the beginning there would be a lot more giggling after smoking, but as things like skunk started replacing the milder stuff it evolved into a more stupefied feeling. I stopped smoking weed soon afterwards as I couldn't seem to get hold of the lighter strains and hated the feeling of the stronger ones. [Edited to remove a badly-worded piece of anecdata that probably wasn't pertinent].
wishfish 4y ago
Do weed shops in legal states not have "light" options? Seems weird if they didn't, but I guess that might be a side effect of recent legalization. That the heavy stuff sells better to consumers who used to take whatever they could find back in the black market days. Anyways, I'm asking because I unfortunately live in a state where it's still illegal.
- bitxbitxbitcoin 4y ago
  Generally they do not. The ones that are also medical dispensaries are more likely to but it isn’t a guarantee.
  - hobs 4y ago
    Most California dispensaries I have been to absolutely have low dosage 5mg options, they also stock 100mg options, but stores listen to the market and stock based on what they can get and what people want. It was very typical to see older folks and very light smokers to request the smaller dosages. They also seemed to trend towards vapes in the younger lighter smokers because the dosage can be fairly small.
    - pcthrowaway 4y ago
      Yeah, I've bought weed in Cali once, didn't have any problem at all finding CBD strains which are low THC (most would consider it trace amounts). Finding a strain with 0 THC (since I'm pretty sensitive and don't enjoy THC at all) is a bit harder.
      - hobs 4y ago
        Yeah, that would definitely be difficult, as far as I saw you could get CBD powder at various places if you wanted to just add a little to a drink or do a dab.
      - samatman 4y ago
        The good news is, since 0 THC strains are legal everywhere in the US, you can just buy them online. They don't show up in dispensaries much, because why go through all the hassle to meet regulations on a product which doesn't have to meet those regulations, unless they're being sold at a dispensary?
DoingIsLearning 4y ago
Maybe a stupid question but are there any cannabis variants which are agreed on as the 'wild'/ original cannabis? I can see that being used by sellers as a marketing claim for health benefits in a not so distant future?
- thebeastie 4y ago
  There are, they are called “landraces”, but you have the problem of replicating the original genetics with a dwindling / deteriorating supply of old seeds. Or if it’s not that, trusting that what you are buying is actually what it advertised.
- h2odragon 4y ago
  There's ditchweed everywhere almost. It's been influenced by domesticated varieties but after a couple years a patch will be pretty well back to "landrace" and potency will depend on how much predation and insect load it gets.
- wonderwonder 4y ago
  Strain called Durban Poison is supposed to be one, relatively common to find in dispensaries. I actually got some yesterday so I know what I am doing Saturday night :) Interesting read on the subject: https://dutch-passion.com/en/blog/what-are-cannabis-landrace-strains-n1006#:~:text=Landrace%20strains%20are%20the%20original,phenotypes%20in%20the%20landrace%20strains https://dutch-passion.com/en/blog/what-are-cannabis-landrace....
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
numerik_meister 4y ago
- darkerside 4y ago
  s/*/That's interesting. I've never thought about what positive effects there might be. Can you expand?/g
  - numerik_meister 4y ago
    I did not intend to ask a question. I know for sure that a lot of potheads really want to push their recreational drug as a miracle do all drug, while ignoring all the negative effects. The negative effects are well documented science. The positive effects are all vaporous claims from questionable studies. Really goes to show the objectivity of HN, that I get downvoted for this.
    - lbotos 4y ago
      You are getting downvoted for your dogmatic and set in your ways views. HN is a place for curiosity and your responses are not increasing curiosity they are closing it off.
      - numerik_meister 4y ago
        I have read the countless studies blog spammed on Reddit and HN for the past 15 years, and formed my opinion accordingly. How is that at all dogmatic?
    - nicoburns 4y ago
      It's worth noting that almost all medicinal drugs have negative effects. Certainly there are people who promote cannabis as a cure-all, and that's pretty ridiculous. But it's equally ridiculous to assume that it has no medicinal uses. You even mention one (pain relief) in your comment!
    - andybak 4y ago
lucideer 4y ago
While I'm not proposing "doing nothing" about this problem, how much of this is likely to be a "hangover" from prohibition. Based on absolutely no data whatsoever, my instinct would be that demand for high-THC/low-CBD products would decrease as access to cannabis becomes less novel.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- nerdponx 4y ago
  My intuition is similar, especially as older and less "drug oriented" users continue to enter the market. In Massachusetts, a lot of dispensaries show the THC level, and I usually just buy the one with the lowest content.
- jgtrosh 4y ago
  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6312155/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6312155/ > without any clear guidelines or regulations from government officials, the cannabis industry has taken a page from the tobacco and alcohol industries’ play book and developed strains of marijuana and concentrated marijuana products with much higher concentrations of THC, the psychoactive component that causes addiction. The more potent a drug is, the stronger the possibility of addiction and the more likely the person will continue to purchase and use the product. Doesn't seem like there's any incentive to reduce potency.
  - lucideer 4y ago
    I opened with "I'm not proposing doing nothing" - I do think measures to remediate this problem in the short term are a good idea, in line with the fears outlined in your article. Nothing in your article tackles my main point though? > the cannabis industry has taken a page from the tobacco and alcohol industries’ play book As a slightly off-topic aside: tobacco I'm less familiar with (I wasn't aware of efforts by the industry to grow strains of the plants with higher nicotine content but it seems unsurprising), but including alcohol here is bizarre. Alcohol isn't naturally occurring in harvested produce - it's an output from a process. And even then, maybe they're talking about distillation, but that process predates the industrial revolution by 100s maybe 1000s of years. Tbh this throwaway statement kinda makes me question the article...
snarfy 4y ago
When I lived in Arizona before it was legal, the vast majority of weed came from Mexico. A quarter pound cost $200 and was a mix of male and female plants, full of seeds, grown in fields. I was a daily user for about 20 years. I moved to coastal state where it was legal. Now it's all hydroponically grown, all female and all seedless. I was a daily user for about 12 years and had to completely stop using it. It would always help my stomach if I had stomach problems, but eventually I had stomach problems daily and the only fix was more weed. It turns out the weed was the cause of and solution to all my problems. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabinoid_hyperemesis_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabinoid_hyperemesis_syndro...
- saiya-jin 4y ago
  Maybe I am off, but when drawing from my 25 years of consumption and trying most of variants - outdoor, indoor, low potency, extreme dutch ones and everything in between, local hash in morocco, india and nepal, homemade milk, cookies, vaping and oil vaping; eating and oil vaping are most potent to me, joint least potent and I avoid them if possible. I don't like eating due to very long ramp up and it last for too long for casual evening, it may be great summer weekend festival item. What I want to say - even most potent oil vapes regardless of sativa/indica/cbd mix, it was just about dosage. 1 hit was a pleasant light trip, 2 was a nice strong one, 3 really strong but manageable for simple stuff. I once had 6 draws while walking in village & forest - I really went far away form this reality, hypnotizing street lights, dancing on empty streets. Couldn't trust myself which normally never ever happens on weed. It ended up OK somehow but oh boy beware. If one doesn't have any self control, it may cause issue - till it hits you fully (which is cca 5 mins with vape oil, unlike ie joint/pipe which is almost immediate), you may have already taken too much. But that would be the problem with hard alcohol too, there its more like 30 mins and we all have seen enough shitfaced folks in our lives who took too many shots too fast. So education, explanation - potency, indica/sativa mixing, literally learning consumption of cannabis and products. Its not complex but it ain't primitive linear alcohol 'high' (or more like low) regardless of type of drink. I still consider oil vapes the best product for me, chirurgically precise amount of high, very convenient, and very reproducible once you are familiar with given strain.
SomeBoolshit 4y ago
Just mix it with CBD-weed to get the overall THC content down.
hopefulengineer 4y ago
clsec 4y ago
I'll just leave these here for anyone who wants to know the truth about cannabis testing. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/americas-pot-labs-have-a-thc-problem/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/americas-pot-labs-have-... https://www.leafly.com/news/strains-products/lab-shopping-thc-inflation-marijuana-2019-leafly-review https://www.leafly.com/news/strains-products/lab-shopping-th...
gallexme 4y ago
I do hope they keep strong strains tho, I use a herb vape, n u love to only vape around 25mg of bud n get high, way less irritation
m0llusk 4y ago
Higher concentrations allow people to use less material. That higher concentrations cause harm is not clearly established. There are always people who will manage to misuse and hurt themselves with anything, even Hacker News.
- zug_zug 4y ago
  Yup. You can always just take 1/24th of a gummy, I know plenty of people who do that weekly at least.
krylon 4y ago
If you legalize it, you can regulate the THC content by legalizing only weed with a maximum THC concentration, and/or by taxing it based on THC levels.
humbleMouse 4y ago
peanut_worm 4y ago
You can still find lower THC cannabis at any dispensary. Most carry from 10 to 30%. Most also carry CBD flower and very low dose edibles. I also don’t understand this argument because you can just take 1 hit and be done. No one is forcing you to finish a whole joint. Should liquor be outlawed because it is stronger than beer?
- standardUser 4y ago
  It's really hard to dose "1 hit". It's not like a shot of liquor. And inexperienced users are not experts at hitting pipes or vapes or joints, so that "1 hit" becomes even trickier. And if you fuck up, whoops, now you're uncomfortably high for several hours! Better to have a much wider variety of potencies available, like we have with alcohol. Especially for the casual users who have been ignored by the market because traditional dealers get most of their money from heavy users, and heavy users want the chronic.
  - TillE 4y ago
    You can literally just measure the amount of flower you're consuming before you start, either with a precise scale or by pinching out a tiny amount. Use a good vaporizer or a cheap glass pipe.
    - standardUser 4y ago
      Sure, that is something you can say to an experienced marijuana user, but the casual dude who hasn't smoked weed since college and just wants to smoke a joint... that dude just wants to smoke a joint! There is no need for scales or precision to be involved. All that is needed is some low-to-moderate-potency weed, hopefully with some CBD content. "Use a good vaporizer or a cheap glass pipe." You do realize that a lot of people don't really know how to use those devices, right? Why anyone would argue against more variety of weed with better labelling is way beyond my comprehension.
      - johnisgood 4y ago
adamsmith143 4y ago
>[1]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6312155/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6312155/ This is an opinion piece written by a Psychiatrist. Hardly conclusive or convincing. Also focuses on teen use so not sure it has much relevance for the vast majority of users in Legal jurisdictions.
- selfmodruntime 4y ago
  In retrospect yea, my source is bad. There are certainly better ones forming the same conclusion.
noneeeed 4y ago
One option would be to tax it based on the amount of thc. Get the rates right and you could make it more profitable to produce less potent stuff.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
standardUser 4y ago
The solution to this is a legal marketplace. I was able to start buying lower-potency weed in California as soon as recreational stores became established. Now, I'm waiting around for the same in NY and buying weed that is way too strong in the meantime. A joint as 10-15% THC with some CBD is an entirely different experience than the 25% and up THC that most dealers sell (and that's usually all they sell).
alistairSH 4y ago
How does this apply with edibles or oils? I assume since most of those are sold with a published THC level, there's an incentive to produce stronger plant? Less plant for more edible/oil/whatever?
mensetmanusman 4y ago
It’s a hard problem because any regulations increase cost to consumers and increase the likelihood that the black market still exists. The black market is alive and well in the U.S. where it is legal.
- bombcar 4y ago
  Black markets that are already setup take a bit to knock down, and even just taxes can keep them running for years (there's a moderately strong black market for cigarettes, for example). For things that are NOT in the process of being banned entirely, sin taxes may do more harm than good.
  - mensetmanusman 4y ago
    It does take some effort to knock down, but I think the failed war on drugs will mean that there will be little to no effort to knock anything down and therefore we will have the worst of both worlds.
Fnoord 4y ago
My aunt made her own hash oil (legally, from NL). It was for the CBD, her husband (my uncle) had cancer. She grew her own. This way, it is more or less standardized. Standardization is a problem with decriminalized and illegal drugs.
wonderwonder 4y ago
I think experienced users know how much they can smoke and are equipped to make rational decisions. I buy weed in the 15%-19% thc range. I know if I share a bowl with my wife then after that bowl we are good for whatever we want to do that night as long as we are home. I smoke far less if I am leaving the house and interacting with people, then I limit it to 2 hits off the one hitter. This is because of experience though, I know my limits and what I am attempting to accomplish. The issue is individuals who equate weed with a harmless drug. It is harmless in that you are virtually guaranteed not to die from it but if you over do it things can be rough. Never understood why people feel the need to start with 3 or 4 hits of something they have never tried before. Take a hit, relax. See how you do. If its your first time, then that's it, next time depending on your experience try 2 hits. No need to start at maximum. You need the slow increases over days to understand your limits, experience comes with time. Its like trying alcohol for the first time, taking a shot of everclear and 5 minutes later deciding it had no effect so you take another shot. Its not a good idea.
- deleted 4y ago
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augstein 4y ago
I would recommend to consume only low THC + high CBD strains.(1) For me the difference of these strains to some of the modern high THC + low CBD ones is comparable to drinking a good glass of wine versus chugging down some highly potent moonshine. Some moderns strains are completely overbred and dangerous to some people in my experience.(2) Knowing the Germans, I‘m optimistic, they‘ll regulate it properly, so that everything you will be able to buy legally, should be quite safe. 1) https://greatist.com/health/high-cbd-low-thc#_noHeaderPrefixedContent https://greatist.com/health/high-cbd-low-thc#_noHeaderPrefix... 2) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabinoid_hyperemesis_syndrome https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabinoid_hyperemesis_synd...

zwarag 4y ago

Are there any European weed stocks?

rbinv 4y ago
No, but Tilray ($TLRY) has operations in Germany and Portugal (for medical cannabis). Their potential moat with regards to the recreational market depends on the licensing rules to come.
adrianN 4y ago
You probably want to invest in companies growing other things hydroponically. The skillset should allow them to quickly enter the cannabis market.

jokethrowaway 4y ago

That's great, a sliver of more freedom in the world - and long overdue. Hopefully this will allow the police to do something about crime which is becoming a huge issue in Europe (probably thanks to lockdowns, recession, uncontrolled immigration). I hope it catches on everywhere else but I'm definitely not going to buy their overpriced and overtaxed products - I'll just buy seeds and grow it for personal use.

barrucadu 4y ago
Why would lockdowns encourage crime?
Xylakant 4y ago
> Hopefully this will allow the police to do something about crime which is becoming a huge issue in Europe (probably thanks to lockdowns, recession, uncontrolled immigration). Definitely not everywhere in Europe - the PKS in germany shows declining levels of crime (+) as well as for violent crimes (++) since 2017 until 2021. Now, this statistics need to be read carefully since they track what‘s been _reported_ to the police with no further investigation, so there are various statistical effects to take into account when reading them (+++), but they do provide a good idea of the overall trend. If crime were becoming a huge issue in germany, one would expect an uptick in reported crimes, but that‘s not visible anywhere in the stats. (+) https://www.bka.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/Publikationen/PolizeilicheKriminalstatistik/2021/BundesdatenDelikte/02_StraftatenInsgesamtOhneAuslaenderrechtBRD.pdf%3Bjsessionid=04E3114F9E4974A5DC6272F4D7799B93.live612?__blob=publicationFile&v=3 https://www.bka.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/Publikationen/Pol... (++) https://www.bka.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/Publikationen/PolizeilicheKriminalstatistik/2021/BundesdatenDelikte/13_GewaltkriminalitaetBRD.pdf%3Bjsessionid=04E3114F9E4974A5DC6272F4D7799B93.live612?__blob=publicationFile&v=3 https://www.bka.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/Publikationen/Pol... (+++) for example, it‘s much more likely that immigrants get reported after a street/bar fight than native Germans. Another example is that rape and sexual harassment are underreported, but the willingness to report is rising, so it‘s currently not exactly clear what produces the rise in the stats.

fabian2k 4y ago

Germany has lots of borders to several european countries, once it is legal here there is probably no realistic way to efficiently control the transfer across borders.

stefan_ 4y ago
Because right now we are perfectly in control of illicit drug transfers across borders.
mtlmtlmtlmtl 4y ago
Not that there ever was in the first place...
orangepurple 4y ago
They could technically leave the European Union Customs Union (EUCU), stay in the EU, and continue to be a part of the Schengen Area. Then more products could be controlled at the borders. I never said it would be a good idea.
romanovcode 4y ago
The only difference will be that the weed will be bought legally. What you're implying is already happening for decades.
deleted 4y ago
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briffle 4y ago
The largest volume dipensary in the state of Oregon is just a few miles from the Idaho border, where its still illegal, and only 45 min from Boise.

noodlesUK 4y ago

I hope they eventually do this in the UK. Weed is basically not illegal if you’re relatively well off and white. I’ve seen a number of cops just take the weed away from a rich uni student or similar and bin it with no further action taken, but if you’re not, criminal charges await. Making it decriminalised would solve that disparity of treatment.

Tenoke 4y ago
Eh, I've smoked near cops in London as a poor immigrant student and they've at best given me a stare or a few words. It depends on the cop but generally they are pretty lenient with non-dealers.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
blackhaz 4y ago
I really hope so as well. Black market weed in UK sucks. I've moved here recently and all the stuff I was able to get was dry deodorized skunk grown on chemicals - really sad state. It stinks a mile away, it's not fresh, you literally can feel there's something added to it that shouldn't be there. I stopped using cannabis completely at this point.
BrianOnHN 4y ago
Not sure why your comment is down-voted, because this is true in the US, too.
- rovek 4y ago
  I would suggest because the sentiment is a trite misrepresentation of people's experiences across multiple facets. Throughout the summer you'll smell weed constantly if you're out and about and never see anyone so much as approached by any nearby police, regardless of who they are. Edit: UK, I can't speak for the US
frereubu 4y ago

hans1729 4y ago

Wording: Germany will not legalise Cannabis. Maybe it will be decriminalized, but there is basically no chance of legalisation (too complex/expensive of a process). I have no reason to trust the SPD that they will deliver on this, they are the infamous poster child for betrayal. They are the kind of party that would sell their entire voting base if it served the acting politicians individual careers. If they will do it, then it will be leveraged to the max, right before the next critical election.

mschuster91 4y ago
Agreed on the idiocy of the SPD ("wer hat uns verraten? Sozialdemokraten")... but this time, the Justice Ministry belongs to the FDP. They have alienated an awful lot of voters with their effective denial of reasonable covid measures, they'd be completely done for if they would not manage to get cannabis legal-ish enough that people can buy cannabis products in stores and smoke on the streets without fearing arrest. We have elections in Bavaria and Hessen in 2023, the FDP will need at least something to show off, and cannabis is the easiest thing to pass, particularly as the Greens and parts of the SPD have long fought for it.
- hans1729 4y ago
  advocatus diaboli: the FDP has a long track record of advocating for legalisation and then voting against it or abstain in parliamentary elections. Their core clientel are small business owners and (other) anti-regulation folk, I strongly doubt that they lose big margins of voters due to their covid policy, maybe even the opposite is the case. Point being: if the FDP is the reason to have faith in this, I'm not feeling much more confident than before.
- 2-718-281-828 4y ago
  > They have alienated an awful lot of voters with their effective denial of reasonable covid measures they also won a number of sympathizers ... and "reasonable measures" - what a funny moment to write that nonsense.
  - 4y ago

adriand 4y ago

> Canada has made some progress since legalisation in 2018, but through a regionally varied patchwork of free-market and state-controlled supply systems that makes it hard to draw broad lessons This strikes me as an odd claim. Each province has its own approach, and the provinces are large. Wouldn’t having varying approaches among different large regions be perfect for drawing lessons?

hans1729 4y ago
Not with respect to the country as a whole. 'broad' is the key term in the sentence you quoted.
ttul 4y ago
It had to be this way. Provinces determine how alcohol and tobacco are sold within their borders; it would have been strange for cannabis distribution to be federally regulated. Some useful comparisons can indeed be drawn. Quebec launched with a very restrictive distribution model. BC was quite liberal. The latter province has fared much better in terms of squeezing out profits for organized crime. There are virtually no unauthorized cannabis shops in the province and very little black market activity relative to pre-legalization. Keep distribution straightforward and analogous to how tobacco and alcohol are sold, and keep taxes on cannabis low to cut out profits for the black market.
- newsclues 4y ago
  Some of the most successful BC stores are run by people still brokering in the black market.

coldcode 4y ago

While I have no interest in weed, I never understood why people are against it, since cigarettes are also a drug and are far more damaging to heath and the economy, and in the US kills a couple hundred thousand folks a year, or alcohol, which is a drug, and kills tens of thousands of people a year. Eliminating illegality would save in so many ways, and taxes could help offset other taxes. But no, weed is somehow more terrible...

Hamuko 4y ago
What if I'm against weed, cigarettes and alcohol?
- jcbrand 4y ago
  Then don't use them.
  - Hamuko 4y ago
    I don't use any of them. Doesn't mean that I'm not affected by the harmful effects of them.
    - dymk 4y ago
      Particularly weed, what negative externalities do you experience?
      - Hamuko 4y ago
        Not that many at the moment, considering that it's an illegal substance and <2% of the population consumes weed monthly (<0.2% daily), meaning that it's consumed a lot less than cigarettes (approximately 12% of the population between 20 and 64 smoke daily). It's also primarily used by young people here, meaning that long-term effects are not yet visible. But obviously there are health factors to consider with smoking weed (heart infarcts, lung issues/cancer, mental health issues, etc) that will be subsidized by the rest of the society. I'm also concerned about the affects of weed on driving if it becomes legal and its consumption increases, as alcohol is involved in every fourth fatal car accident and weed increases risk factors for car crashes.

wickedsight 4y ago

The Netherlands will be especially impacted by this. We refused actual legalization for many reasons, many of which will be invalidated by Germany decriminalizing. Our current stance on weed is so confusing that it's hard to explain to any foreigner, but strictly speaking weed isn't legal and not even decriminalized... But yes, Amsterdam is in The Netherlands.

danielbln 4y ago
Nitpick: Germany is poised to legalize and not just decriminialize, which is an important distinction.
- donkeyd 4y ago
  No problem. I read another comment that said it would not be legalized. But now that I read the responses to that comment I feel like I probably shouldn't have taken that comment as the truth.
- dr_dshiv 4y ago
  Germany is poised to tax that shit. Finally.
- runeks 4y ago
  If it’s an important distinction then it’s not a nitpick :-)
htkibar 4y ago
In all fairness, it isn't like we want people to come as tourists here to smoke weed or something so should be fine no? For anyone else wanting to know more about the Dutch policy on this: https://www.government.nl/topics/drugs/toleration-policy-regarding-soft-drugs-and-coffee-shops https://www.government.nl/topics/drugs/toleration-policy-reg...
- tommit 4y ago
  Quick question for our Dutch neighbors: why not? I never understood why it is exactly that The Netherlands were kind of against the drug tourism. I mean, I'm sure your average pot head tourist is not that much trouble and leaves quite a bit of money, no? I studied in The Netherlands and always thought I'd be proud as a country to be that "progressive" in a sense -- especially once it became clear that other countries were following.

mikro2nd 4y ago

In South Africa Cannabis has been legal for personal use in "places where you have an expectation of privacy" (but selling is still illegal) for several years now. So far the world has not ended, the country doesn't sit around stoned all day and we're not all hooked on Heroin. There's talk of introducing legislation to restrict quantities (government has plenty of securicrat control freaks), but since that violates the very principles which underpinned the Constitutional Court's overturning the legislation that made weed illegal in the first place, I can't see it going very far.

Tade0 4y ago

My high school classmate and, coincidentally, my SO's friend from college is currently doing time for "possession of large amounts of marijuana" - 19g to be specific. He used to be a local weed dealer and while he knew what he was getting into and was consciously breaking the law at the time, after his first arrest a few years ago he stopped and got a regular job. He only got involved with the court again because one acquaintance of his was charged with drug dealing and figured he could lessen his sentence by giving the authorities someone else to prosecute. All in all a person who could otherwise continue to be a productive member of society has to spend two years in prison now.

rbinv 4y ago
What's the state where this happened?
- Tade0 4y ago
  Not in the US. Poland.
subpixel 4y ago
I have a high-school friend in prison for 20+ years for marijuana-related charges. I now live in a recreationally legal state, the irony is not lost on me.
- iinnPP 4y ago
  US prisons are absolutely packed with young marijuana dealers/users with effectively lifetime sentences. Many of them are truly good people.
  - rainworld 4y ago
    A small fraction is in for possession only, and even that is misleading considering the prevalence of plea deals and career criminals.
    - 4y ago

Findecanor 4y ago

I find it crazy to decriminalise a drug in smoked form. It is often through second-hand smoke in social situations that people get addicted to a smoked drug before they start using it themselves. I'm afraid that that would lead to more addiction. Personally, I don't have anything against it being ingested in other forms: such as "magic" brownies or vaping that don't affect other people around you.

rsynnott 4y ago
> It is through second-hand smoke that people get addicted to a smoked drug before they start using it themselves Eh? No, that's not generally the major concern about passive smoking; not sure where you got that from.
- Findecanor 4y ago
  Not being what more people are concerned about does not mean that it does not happen. Although, I'll concede that cannabis is much less addictive compared to tobacco, for which this is how most smokers are made.
  - bmicraft 4y ago
    Second hand smoke is not how most smokers are made for _any_ drug. Generally that's peer pressure, but I see how those could be mixed up (being around smokers).
    - bennovw 4y ago
      Yep, don't blame the second hand smoke, blame your own "first hand" desire to conform to the social norms and behavior of your peer group. This is why you should choose your friends very carefully.
ClumsyPilot 4y ago
> I find it crazy to decriminalise a drug that is supposed to be smoked. It is through second-hand smoke that people get addicted to a smoked drug I can testify that as a child with a habitual smoker in the house, of ordinary cigarettes, it was kinda terrible. All our clothes would smell of tabacco, and teachers at school were convinced me and my brother are smokers. after being tortured by cigarette smoke for a decate, we find them repulsive and have never touched them. so it runs contrary to my experience, and i never heard of anyone aquiring addiction through 2nd hand smoking, but it can be damaging to the wholw familt.

yrgulation 4y ago

This is excellent news. Once Germany legalises it, other countries will likely be _forced_ to follow suit.

Shadonototra 4y ago

This is the worst idea ever The American lobby strikes again, they now control the whole industry and let their domestic market grow for years, they are ready to use EU as their market, yet again On top of making their population even more dumb What a sad and funest faith for Europe

bmicraft 4y ago
You think Germany, a country that already grows weed for medical purposes, will start importing massive amounts of weed from outside the EU?
- Shadonototra 4y ago
  EU used to make many things, it also used to have a strong telecom industry ;)

DrBazza 4y ago

mhh__ 4y ago
And a decrease in alcohols huge burden on society?
opabinia 4y ago
Should we criminalize chocolate bars and hamburgers as well then?
- OscarDC 4y ago
  The answer to the concern of potential health issue of cannabis legalization is almost always "what about [this other bad product with some common effects], should we forbid it too?" This argument always sounds like a fallacy to me, as we're talking about legalizing something that was previously not, not the other way around. I get that the argument might be seen as relativizing by providing examples of legal substances everybody agree today should be legal, but the way this answer (and others) is always presented sounds to me excessively aggressive and non-productive. If you want to make a point, please make it, don't just stop at this absurd proposition. --- Some people (I'm not even included in that group as I don't really care about this issue) seem very concerned about the global health implications of cannabis legalization. Instead of aggressively diminishing this opinion with whataboutisms, legalizing proponents motivated enough to answer to this person should IMO better take into consideration (and respect) this opinion.
  - samatman 4y ago
    The fallacy is presuming, wrongly, that the legal status of a substance has any bearing on whether it should be legal. It's called assuming the consequent.
  - gwbas1c 4y ago
    > Instead of aggressively diminishing this opinion with whataboutisms, legalizing proponents motivated enough to answer to this person should IMO better take into consideration (and respect) this opinion. Regarding the US: We already experimented with alcohol prohibition. It failed for the same reasons that marijuana prohibition failed. (I believe Europe did the same thing, but I'm less familiar with its history.) You're advocating for a "nanny state" law. These are difficult in democracies. In the US, we see debates about similar issues: Some people want to ban guns, some people want to ban abortion, some people want to ban bad drivers, some people want to require helmets for XXX. Nanny state laws only pass in the US when the politicians who pass them know they will get re-elected. (IE, the US has some areas with very restrictive alcohol laws, because the people in that area believe drinking is a sin.)

seper8 4y ago

Hope so. Here in the Netherlands we've fallen hilariously behind. It's illegal to produce weed with the intention to sell, but legal to sell. At the same time it's illegal to have a large inventory. So criminals make large amounts of cash by illegally growing weed. And cops have to waste their time dealing with these guys. Eventually these guys grow up and start with the more profitable stuff such as cocaine & mdma. Next step is to start ripping off other criminals, threatening local businessmen who dont want to hide your cocaine in their fruit imports...

htkibar 4y ago
Well - not really. It is not legal to sell it is just "tolerated". Which is I guess making your point even further?
Nextgrid 4y ago
> cops have to waste their time dealing with these guys. Maybe they don't "waste" their time, and instead enjoy job security and an endless supply of easy crimes to solve? I suspect law enforcement is a big reason why drug legalization is hard.
- seper8 4y ago
  Probably... Also suspect they fear that these guys will move on to different forms of crime to make money instead. Crime that will actually do more damage to society.

spacemanmatt 4y ago

The stronger stuff is simply higher bang for the buck, and in today's economy that matters more than everything else. It's too bad consumers are so disconnected from producers due to the legal situation, or else they might see a regular response to demand for more balanced buds.

sk8terboi 4y ago

Storm-Bringer 4y ago

Can it be enjoyed by some ways other than smoking? Not trying to troll here, its smell honestly makes me want to vomit.

redisman 4y ago
Edibles and vaporizing are essentially smell free
gwbas1c 4y ago
2nd to edibles. As soon as I had legal access to edibles, I switched to edibles almost 100% exclusively. It's much easier to just pop a candy in my mouth than to pack up a bong or vape. (And there's no smell to deal with, which is useful with children around.) The dosage control is significantly easier than smoking. Where I live, the amounts of psychoactive chemicals per dose are printed on the packaging. Just make sure you start with one (or a half) dose, and wait 2-3 hours before you take any more. Also, if you want a "smoking" experience, without the smoke, vaping does come close. FYI: With vaping it's super-easy to get an overwhelming dose, so be careful.
newsclues 4y ago
It’s also a great pain cream for topical use. As well as vapour, or edibles/drinks.

mytailorisrich 4y ago

> "European countries that have a much bigger problem with illegal cannabis use, like France, are watching very closely what Germany is doing at the moment." The criminal activities and gang wars linked to cannabis trafficking in France are huge. It's a shame that France never took action either on legalisation or on crime... I am not sure that whatever Germany does will have much impact in France, though.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
olabyne 4y ago
I live in Marseille, famous for being home of the illegal traffic. In the poorest suburbs, there is dozens of 'drive through' spots, where the criminals are very friendly to the customers, almost like regular business, while being well alert for any police raid. It is a cat and mouse game, where the police only manages to catch kids, and the sell spot just spawns at another appartment-building. IMO, the french government is blind to think it can fight cannabis traffic by trying to stop the ilegal offer. France is number one consumer of cannabis in europe, so the demand will always create another traffic, unless you counteract with legal, and regulated offer.
- mytailorisrich 4y ago
  I know, 'cousin' ;) > It is a cat and mouse game, where the police only manages to catch kids They only 'manage' to catch what they want to catch considering government's policy over several decades... If they actually wanted to end this it would be ended in under a month. That's one of the big problems in France: Many of those neighbourhoods and criminal activities have been left to fester for decades without anything being actually done, so things just keep getting worse, politicians keep being 'shocked' without doing anything, and round we go.

k__ 4y ago

Boohoo, I just found out I'm allergic to cannabis.

aikah 4y ago

It's crazy we are still having these kind of debates in Europe. 20 years ago most youth around 18/20 thought Cannabis would have already been legalised by now, I don't believe one second that any of the European elected official under 50 never smoked pot. The only possible explanation I see is heavy lobbying from big pharma groups or wine interests.

ketzu 4y ago
> I don't believe one second that any of the European elected official under 50 never smoked pot. To be honest, just the very first statistics I could find on the topic, I didn't put any effort in looking it up at all: https://www.emcdda.europa.eu/system/files/publications/753/emcdda-daily-cannabis-use-2012_400271.pdf https://www.emcdda.europa.eu/system/files/publications/753/e... says the following > In the 2012 EMCDDA Annual report, it is conservatively estimated that cannabis has been used at least once (lifetime prevalence) by around 80.5 million Europeans: almost one in four of all 15- to 64-year-olds. This matches my personal experience (currently mid 30s in Germany) a lot closer, unless politicans are vastly more likely to smoke pot (or pot smokers vastly more likely to go into politics) I have a hard time imagining your estimate is even close to true.
jotm 4y ago
A couple of things that I'm sad about: there are medications better than cannabis for anxiety and depression. But no one talks about them. They're on the same level as alcohol and weed when it comes to addiction potential and harm. Just make them legal ffs. I'm really happy I can get them from pharmacies in my country because they're not on a restricted prescription so they just give them to you if you pinky promise that you have/had a prescription. That said, it's technically illegal. And 2: holy shit eastern European states are dumb. They are missing out on billions in sales and tourism by not legalizing cannabis alone. And now western states will legalize it and reap all the benefits. Watch how eastern states just keep complaining about the brain drain, workforce drain, money problems while doing nothing effective to combat it. Just cheap places to build factories and buy homes for retirement. Great job.
- schroeding 4y ago

ta988 4y ago

I'm in the US. It is really hard to see clever people around me using their almost pure THC at high doses. I can clearly see the negative impact coming much faster than people I know that smoked lots of lower concentration for decades. I see them having all kind of functional issues (memory, motivation, crippling anxiety when not high). And there is no way to talk to them about these negative effects. Mainly because they have been deeply brainwashed to believe that the overall effect is always positive and that all criticisms are a conspiracy by people with war on drugs level agendas. As much as I tend to believe that low amounts can have benefits, both functional and social, what I see from this trend of heavy use of high potency material is clearly not going that way.

humanistbot 4y ago

> The hemp industry is lobbying the German government to tax cannabis products at no more than €10 a gramme of bud This is double the street cost of the product. The black market will thrive.

TillE 4y ago
Yeah this is absurdly high, and a really bad sign if that's what the industry is asking for. My real hope for the law is that small-scale home growing will be allowed, but I'm not very optimistic.
selfmodruntime 4y ago
What? No way this is true

piffey 4y ago

Personally can't wait for the equivalent of Appellation d'origine contrôlée for weed. "It's not Champagne Double Cork Kush unless it comes from the Champagne region." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appellation_d%27origine_contr%C3%B4l%C3%A9e https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appellation_d%27origine_contr%...

newsclues 4y ago
Fighting over who owns genetics is already happening
- xcambar 4y ago
  AOC is not about genetics, it's about land, for the most part.
mhrmsn 4y ago
This made my day - Merci beaucoup!
MonkeyMalarky 4y ago
British Columbia should get in on that and have BC Bud protected.

eternalban 4y ago

[Serious question (pot smoker myself)] Has there ever been a successful civilization that had incorporated use of cannabis in general society? I am not talking about some priestly caste using it for tripping, divining, or making up scripture, I mean like the use of alcohol which actually apparently was a key factor in emergence of urban civilizations. Related question is: do we know of any civilization that collapsed after embracing cannabis?

ellopoppit 4y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_cannabis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_cannabis
erikpukinskis 4y ago
> Has there ever been a successful civilization that had incorporated use of cannabis in general society? California?

vmoore 4y ago

I can't smoke high THC strains. I need high concentrates of CBD since it takes the energetic edge off the THC, and CBD is a natural anti-psychotic. This is why I prefer hashish over dried leaves, since most hashish has a good ratio of CBD to THC. Moroccan '00' is my favorite.

diebeforei485 4y ago

The concentrated stuff should require a prescription IMO. But there shouldn't be restrictions on edibles in the 5mg-10mg range.

elif 4y ago

For context, the proposed limit of 10 euro / gram taxation is the average total price in Amsterdam coffeeshops. So it would be an effective 100% tax rate. California taxes at 15% and still only manages about 60-70% control of the market. If their goal is regulation, I think they will need to chill a little on the taxes.

yc-kraln 4y ago

Coming a bit late to the party, but one aspect of this is that there is already massive usage of cannabis in Germany, and in many areas quite a significant amount is decriminalized. In recent years, however, crappy cannabis adulterated with synthetic cannaboids have become pervasive--they're inferior to the real stuff, addictive, and deeply connected with organized crime. Legalization will likely result in a safer supply for everyone, while also removing a huge money source for criminals.

pimeys 4y ago
It's funny how different it is between regions here. In Berlin you smell it everywhere on the streets and in the bars. In Munich, if you're caught smoking, the police gets quite interested. It's obvious how it's going to be legal in Berlin, I'm just wondering how it's going to look like in other places of Germany...

aurizon 4y ago

Here in Canada a strange thing happened - all these weed shops openedu, wanting to see at $10/gram. They got some business but had rent, taxes, government added taxes etc - half went broke because the guvmint treated it like a cash cow and though the guvmint would replace the dealers and make big $$. about half people went to them, maybe less. The police stopped bothering with them. Huge grow ops started up on aboriginal lands and sell in aboriginal shops on their lands and many people went there as it was cheaper than the shops. Police had zero interest in stopping hundreds of people as they travelled as most cars held3-4 people buying 25 grams(legal max) = waste of time. dealers walked over land and bought carts full for $800-1000/pound (453 grams) just because the guvmint wanted a cash cow to milk - not seeing that fields full could be grown in the summer for $5-10 a pound. The program stumbles on. Marijuana IPO's are dying like flies in this downturn because the principals simply stole the IPO cash and walked away - now there are dozens of lawsuits of all types. I am a spectator = non smoker of anything!!

ttul 4y ago
Another Canadian observer here. The roll out was botched in parts of the country because control over licensing was delegated to provinces and some did a better job than others. British Columbia’s legalization effort has been a resounding success, in so far as there are a plentiful supply of well regulated, pleasant shops pretty much everywhere. And you can buy online easily from the government-owned store — literally it’s a Shopify site. I do not consume cannabis, but here in BC, it has never been difficult to obtain. The difference with legalization is that it’s now just a non-issue. Not sketchy. Not dangerous. It’s just part of the fabric of daily life. Governments like Germany should focus on maximizing access through private distribution much as is the case for alcohol and tobacco. Trying to control the retail end too much will result in a failure.

loufe 4y ago

€10 a gramme of bud.... I don't know about prices in Germany but I can tell you that a lot of the market in Canada would go illegal if taxes were that high here. That is more in taxes than the cost of high quality legal pot in ON/QC.

selfmodruntime 4y ago
Street price is 13 in berlin