9 ms·

Is there any argument here in Amazon’s defense? Or is my initial disgust at Amazon truly the appropriate response. I cannot fathom being the person at Amazon w

Is there any argument here in Amazon’s defense? Or is my initial disgust at Amazon truly the appropriate response. I cannot fathom being the person at Amazon who makes that call. Do they sleep well at night? Do they feel good about themselves?

FollowingTheDao 4y ago
They are probably sleeping in a 14 room mansion in an ultra king size bed being rubbed to sleep by three prostitutes. So yeah, they’re probably sleeping well. But you expect anything different from a corporation? Their only purpose is to make profit. It’s just basic economics. They don’t care about politics or LGBTQ, they care about money. The only reason they ever seem to care about LGBTQ is because they saw the group as a market. A Market to exploit.
- lentil_soup 4y ago
  sure, it's a corporation but in the end a bunch of people have to make the call and implement these filters. My guess is the blame gets dilluted and people are really good at rationalising their work by hiding behind the corporation image, or "someone else will do it anyway", or "yeah, but look at what happens in X", etc
  - FollowingTheDao 4y ago
    > sure, it's a corporation but in the end a bunch of people have to make the call and implement these filters. Yes, people who work at the corporation, the people who will be fired from the corporation if they do not comply. Everyone who works at the Amazon earns money from the profit they make and they will pay the most to people who will make these sociopathic choices.
  - scoutt 4y ago
    If there is no guilt then there is no blame. The only concern they have is about the wording they should use when communicating the decision they've taken so it doesn't look bad. Here is a template: "we did all we can, but we have to comply with a greater force outside our reach". Below certain paygrade of people taking those decisions, a kind of mental "Nuremberg defense"(1) rule applies. People should learn that companies milk these kind of feelings just because they profit from them; it's good for business. The top earners (investors and managers) that probably are, in this very moment, partying in a Singapore KTV, they don't really care. (1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders
ominous 4y ago
> Is there any argument here in Amazon’s defense? Can you phrase the attack you imagine they need defense from in a way that doesn't assume your worldview is the universal position (or that tries to achieve a universal position) everyone must adhere to?
- wesleywt 4y ago
  - HatchedLake721 4y ago
    - mdrzn 4y ago
    - sgift 4y ago
      > Should the whole world now turn their backs on the USA because of recent Roe v Wade overturn which most of the world sees as step backwards, that abolishes women rights, endangers their lives and criminalises what's is acceptable pretty much everywhere else? Yes, they should. Will they? Probably not, but these are two different things.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - lagadu 4y ago
    - torstenvl 4y ago
      Your position is that "most of the world," i.e., more than half of its 7.75 billion people, disapprove of Dobbs? How did you come to that figure? There's no possible way that's true unless you simply decide that the opinions of non-white people don't count. https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/national-international/map-abortion-laws-around-the-world/2883475/ https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/national-international/map-a... And even that map overstates the situation, since, e.g., China's rule is essentially identical to Dobbs: individual provinces have the power to regulate. https://www.safeabortionwomensright.org/news/china-jiangxi-province-has-restricted-abortion-after-the-14th-week-of-pregnancy-because-of-the-sex-ratio-imbalance/ https://www.safeabortionwomensright.org/news/china-jiangxi-p... It's also obviously false that the U.S. has the world view that "detention without trial and major human right abuses" are acceptable. And it's dishonest to compare waging an illegal war with being gay - I mean, seriously, are you saying gay people are literal terrorists? There's no difference in your mind between two men honeymooning on the Persian Gulf and KSM? Seriously. C'mon man.
barrysteve 4y ago
I cannot fathom being the person at Amazon who makes that call. Do they sleep well at night? Do they feel good about themselves? Shame is pride's cloak. Shaming people who aren't proud, isn't going to provoke revelation of their truth and meaning. Most of the anti-gay arguments are derived from a 'natural law' and Platonic interpretations of sexual function.
Traubenfuchs 4y ago
> I cannot fathom being the person at Amazon who makes that call. Do they sleep well at night? Do they feel good about themselves? People in positions being able to make country wide or above decisions at entities like Amazon generally do not care about human life at all. They first and foremost care about being financially successful (and maybe having power) themselves, secondly about their company being financially successful and thirdly their companies public image. Do you really think there is someone ready to say: "Dear Mr. Bezos, we are no longer allowed to sell in UAE because we didn't bow to their anti LGBTQ laws. Too bad." ?
- sweetheart 4y ago
  Yes, that is what I would hope would happen.
huitzitziltzin 4y ago
Firms comply with the laws of the countries in which they operate. The Gulf states have evil and primitive laws on this and many other issues but everyone who operates there complies with them.
- sweetheart 4y ago
  Then they ought not operate there.
  - throwawaylinux 4y ago
    Where should they operate?
    - sweetheart 4y ago
      Places where they aren’t required to enforce medieval, harmful policies that harm minority groups.
      - throwawaylinux 4y ago
        You know they plot to undermine unionization and going as far as coming up with ways to reduce social trust, skirt tax laws, find ways to pay workers less than a living wage and have the government cover the shortfall, etc.? It's not that they dearly want to do the right thing but this horrible islamic theocracy is forcing their hand, they've just fooled you with their vapid rainbow-flag-wrapped virtue signaling.
boeingUH60 4y ago
Do they sleep well at night? Why not... Do they feel good about themselves?...They don't have to do that...I bet most people don't even feel "good" about their corporate jobs. Basically, Amazon had two options; Tell the UAE to pound sand and risk being kicked out of the country or cave in to their demands. Should we really expect another response from a soul-less, union-busting corporate overlord company like Amazon?
- Dylan16807 4y ago
  > Should we really expect another response from a soul-less, union-busting corporate overlord company like Amazon? If we demand a better response hard enough we can pressure them into being better. So... yes?
- sweetheart 4y ago
  Yes, I expect Amazon to stand up against their demands and tell them to go pound sand. Im not naive; I know they won’t. But I can still be disgusted that they won’t.
  - boeingUH60 4y ago
    We peacefully disagree then. I don't expect a company that treats their warehouse workers like s*t to all of a sudden find a moral cause and stand on it, especially when that company has continually shown that it cares about money above all.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - paulgb 4y ago
      I don't think you actually disagree, I think you're both just using different (valid) definitions of expect. “to consider probable or certain” (you) vs “to consider bound in duty or obligated” (sweetheart) (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/expect https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/expect)
    - 4y ago
benreesman 4y ago
You can call it a “defense” or not as you like. People and organizations have been putting money ahead of enlightened ideals as long as there’s been money or ideals. I’m not trying to let Amazon off the hook here per se, but a cursory reading of history shows that such calls are on average, basically everyone ever. We venerate King and Milk and Ghandi and others because they stand out. This is business as usual not for Amazon, it’s business as usual in recorded history.
- 4gotunameagain 4y ago
  Enlightened ideals were the suffragettes. Was the abolition of slavery. Don't you think calling this LGBT craze an enlightened ideal is a bit overselling it ?
  - sgift 4y ago
    No. Also: Suffragettes and abolition of slavery were both called crazy in their time.
    - 4gotunameagain 4y ago
      In their time triple distilled water containing radium was sold as an energy drink, they thought bathing was unhealthy, and they ate mercury. I will go out on a limb and say we can judge things a bit better now. Sure, right now we accept plastic and plasticisers everywhere around us. Which is crazy. And quite probably contributes to the great hormonal disruption and the trans craze.
      - andsoitis 4y ago
        > Sure, right now we accept plastic and plasticisers everywhere around us. Which is crazy. And quite probably contributes to the great hormonal disruption and the trans craze. Interesting intuition. Do you know of any research suggesting a causal link between plastics and more trans visibility?
      - sweetheart 4y ago
zozbot234 4y ago
Amazon is a private organization. They aren't mandated or required to give everyone a platform.
- hoseja 4y ago
  zoz
- wccrawford 4y ago
  So far as I can see, nobody is suggesting that the government should mandate that. Amazon is a private organization with lots and lots of customers. Some of those customers (and potential customers) are upset with what Amazon is doing, and they're voicing that opinion. They can't force Amazon to do anything, unlike the government, but they can certainly persuade them.
  - zozbot234 4y ago
    Sure, but even the UAE government can't force Amaxon in that sense. Amazon is not required to provide their services in the UAE.
mabbo 4y ago
I was in the middle of one of these ethically questionable decisions at Amazon many years ago. Let me explain. Some people are simply sociopaths and do not care- whatever makes money and gets them promoted is fine by them. Some just ignore the problem and defer to those above them: if <senior leader> says it's okay, I guess we have to do it. And some will churn the entire problem in their head until they can justify it. They find some reason why this makes sense because 'if you think about it, really it's better this way'. Takes a lot of work, but they find a reason. And that's human nature. People want to believe they are good people, they don't want to lose their job, and they want to find an excuse for taking part in unethical projects. I feel good that I stood up for what I believed in and left rather than participate. Because in the end, the Government decided that Amazon was wrong on that particular call: https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidjeans/2021/02/02/amazon-settles-ftc-claim-it-withheld-tips-to-delivery-drivers-for-62-million/?sh=72c6cb656c56 https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidjeans/2021/02/02/amazon-se...
- AlexandrB 4y ago
  "The awful thing about life is this: Everybody has their reasons." - https://en.m.wikiquote.org/wiki/The_Rules_of_the_Game https://en.m.wikiquote.org/wiki/The_Rules_of_the_Game
throwawaylinux 4y ago
In Amazon's defense, it costs almost nothing to co-opt social movements and use them to fool people into parting with their money. Very cost effective marketing I would say.
tharne 4y ago
> I cannot fathom being the person at Amazon who makes that call. Do they sleep well at night? Do they feel good about themselves? I'm sure they sleep fine. It's not the role of a retailer to promote a particular political agenda. If we all only transacted with people we agreed with, we wouldn't have a society.
- andsoitis 4y ago
  > It's not the role of a retailer to promote a particular political agenda. Standing up to an authority that declares some lives less valuable than others (e.g. gays, women, having slaves) is maybe a political agenda but it is moreso a moral position, and that is the thing to emphasize. The trouble is, ultimately people tend to not care enough to stick their necks out (lose money, lose a job) to stand up for what's right, unless it affects them very directly. And it is rational to not forego your own wellfare for the sake of some other group, I just wish the circle of empathy people have were larger.
  - russelldjimmy 4y ago
    Can you have empathy for… - those who lack empathy? - those who declare some lives less valuable than others? - those who don’t care enough to stick their necks out to stand up for what’s right unless it affects them very directly?

FollowingTheDao 4y ago

They are probably sleeping in a 14 room mansion in an ultra king size bed being rubbed to sleep by three prostitutes. So yeah, they’re probably sleeping well. But you expect anything different from a corporation? Their only purpose is to make profit. It’s just basic economics. They don’t care about politics or LGBTQ, they care about money. The only reason they ever seem to care about LGBTQ is because they saw the group as a market. A Market to exploit.

lentil_soup 4y ago
sure, it's a corporation but in the end a bunch of people have to make the call and implement these filters. My guess is the blame gets dilluted and people are really good at rationalising their work by hiding behind the corporation image, or "someone else will do it anyway", or "yeah, but look at what happens in X", etc
- FollowingTheDao 4y ago
  > sure, it's a corporation but in the end a bunch of people have to make the call and implement these filters. Yes, people who work at the corporation, the people who will be fired from the corporation if they do not comply. Everyone who works at the Amazon earns money from the profit they make and they will pay the most to people who will make these sociopathic choices.
- scoutt 4y ago
  If there is no guilt then there is no blame. The only concern they have is about the wording they should use when communicating the decision they've taken so it doesn't look bad. Here is a template: "we did all we can, but we have to comply with a greater force outside our reach". Below certain paygrade of people taking those decisions, a kind of mental "Nuremberg defense"(1) rule applies. People should learn that companies milk these kind of feelings just because they profit from them; it's good for business. The top earners (investors and managers) that probably are, in this very moment, partying in a Singapore KTV, they don't really care. (1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders

ominous 4y ago

> Is there any argument here in Amazon’s defense? Can you phrase the attack you imagine they need defense from in a way that doesn't assume your worldview is the universal position (or that tries to achieve a universal position) everyone must adhere to?

wesleywt 4y ago
- HatchedLake721 4y ago
  - mdrzn 4y ago
  - sgift 4y ago
    > Should the whole world now turn their backs on the USA because of recent Roe v Wade overturn which most of the world sees as step backwards, that abolishes women rights, endangers their lives and criminalises what's is acceptable pretty much everywhere else? Yes, they should. Will they? Probably not, but these are two different things.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - lagadu 4y ago
  - torstenvl 4y ago
    Your position is that "most of the world," i.e., more than half of its 7.75 billion people, disapprove of Dobbs? How did you come to that figure? There's no possible way that's true unless you simply decide that the opinions of non-white people don't count. https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/national-international/map-abortion-laws-around-the-world/2883475/ https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/national-international/map-a... And even that map overstates the situation, since, e.g., China's rule is essentially identical to Dobbs: individual provinces have the power to regulate. https://www.safeabortionwomensright.org/news/china-jiangxi-province-has-restricted-abortion-after-the-14th-week-of-pregnancy-because-of-the-sex-ratio-imbalance/ https://www.safeabortionwomensright.org/news/china-jiangxi-p... It's also obviously false that the U.S. has the world view that "detention without trial and major human right abuses" are acceptable. And it's dishonest to compare waging an illegal war with being gay - I mean, seriously, are you saying gay people are literal terrorists? There's no difference in your mind between two men honeymooning on the Persian Gulf and KSM? Seriously. C'mon man.

barrysteve 4y ago

I cannot fathom being the person at Amazon who makes that call. Do they sleep well at night? Do they feel good about themselves? Shame is pride's cloak. Shaming people who aren't proud, isn't going to provoke revelation of their truth and meaning. Most of the anti-gay arguments are derived from a 'natural law' and Platonic interpretations of sexual function.

Traubenfuchs 4y ago

> I cannot fathom being the person at Amazon who makes that call. Do they sleep well at night? Do they feel good about themselves? People in positions being able to make country wide or above decisions at entities like Amazon generally do not care about human life at all. They first and foremost care about being financially successful (and maybe having power) themselves, secondly about their company being financially successful and thirdly their companies public image. Do you really think there is someone ready to say: "Dear Mr. Bezos, we are no longer allowed to sell in UAE because we didn't bow to their anti LGBTQ laws. Too bad." ?

sweetheart 4y ago
Yes, that is what I would hope would happen.

huitzitziltzin 4y ago

Firms comply with the laws of the countries in which they operate. The Gulf states have evil and primitive laws on this and many other issues but everyone who operates there complies with them.

sweetheart 4y ago
Then they ought not operate there.
- throwawaylinux 4y ago
  Where should they operate?
  - sweetheart 4y ago
    Places where they aren’t required to enforce medieval, harmful policies that harm minority groups.
    - throwawaylinux 4y ago
      You know they plot to undermine unionization and going as far as coming up with ways to reduce social trust, skirt tax laws, find ways to pay workers less than a living wage and have the government cover the shortfall, etc.? It's not that they dearly want to do the right thing but this horrible islamic theocracy is forcing their hand, they've just fooled you with their vapid rainbow-flag-wrapped virtue signaling.

boeingUH60 4y ago

Do they sleep well at night? Why not... Do they feel good about themselves?...They don't have to do that...I bet most people don't even feel "good" about their corporate jobs. Basically, Amazon had two options; Tell the UAE to pound sand and risk being kicked out of the country or cave in to their demands. Should we really expect another response from a soul-less, union-busting corporate overlord company like Amazon?

Dylan16807 4y ago
> Should we really expect another response from a soul-less, union-busting corporate overlord company like Amazon? If we demand a better response hard enough we can pressure them into being better. So... yes?
sweetheart 4y ago
Yes, I expect Amazon to stand up against their demands and tell them to go pound sand. Im not naive; I know they won’t. But I can still be disgusted that they won’t.
- boeingUH60 4y ago
  We peacefully disagree then. I don't expect a company that treats their warehouse workers like s*t to all of a sudden find a moral cause and stand on it, especially when that company has continually shown that it cares about money above all.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - paulgb 4y ago
    I don't think you actually disagree, I think you're both just using different (valid) definitions of expect. “to consider probable or certain” (you) vs “to consider bound in duty or obligated” (sweetheart) (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/expect https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/expect)
  - 4y ago

benreesman 4y ago

You can call it a “defense” or not as you like. People and organizations have been putting money ahead of enlightened ideals as long as there’s been money or ideals. I’m not trying to let Amazon off the hook here per se, but a cursory reading of history shows that such calls are on average, basically everyone ever. We venerate King and Milk and Ghandi and others because they stand out. This is business as usual not for Amazon, it’s business as usual in recorded history.

4gotunameagain 4y ago
Enlightened ideals were the suffragettes. Was the abolition of slavery. Don't you think calling this LGBT craze an enlightened ideal is a bit overselling it ?
- sgift 4y ago
  No. Also: Suffragettes and abolition of slavery were both called crazy in their time.
  - 4gotunameagain 4y ago
    In their time triple distilled water containing radium was sold as an energy drink, they thought bathing was unhealthy, and they ate mercury. I will go out on a limb and say we can judge things a bit better now. Sure, right now we accept plastic and plasticisers everywhere around us. Which is crazy. And quite probably contributes to the great hormonal disruption and the trans craze.
    - andsoitis 4y ago
      > Sure, right now we accept plastic and plasticisers everywhere around us. Which is crazy. And quite probably contributes to the great hormonal disruption and the trans craze. Interesting intuition. Do you know of any research suggesting a causal link between plastics and more trans visibility?
    - sweetheart 4y ago

zozbot234 4y ago

Amazon is a private organization. They aren't mandated or required to give everyone a platform.

hoseja 4y ago
zoz
wccrawford 4y ago
So far as I can see, nobody is suggesting that the government should mandate that. Amazon is a private organization with lots and lots of customers. Some of those customers (and potential customers) are upset with what Amazon is doing, and they're voicing that opinion. They can't force Amazon to do anything, unlike the government, but they can certainly persuade them.
- zozbot234 4y ago
  Sure, but even the UAE government can't force Amaxon in that sense. Amazon is not required to provide their services in the UAE.

mabbo 4y ago

I was in the middle of one of these ethically questionable decisions at Amazon many years ago. Let me explain. Some people are simply sociopaths and do not care- whatever makes money and gets them promoted is fine by them. Some just ignore the problem and defer to those above them: if <senior leader> says it's okay, I guess we have to do it. And some will churn the entire problem in their head until they can justify it. They find some reason why this makes sense because 'if you think about it, really it's better this way'. Takes a lot of work, but they find a reason. And that's human nature. People want to believe they are good people, they don't want to lose their job, and they want to find an excuse for taking part in unethical projects. I feel good that I stood up for what I believed in and left rather than participate. Because in the end, the Government decided that Amazon was wrong on that particular call: https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidjeans/2021/02/02/amazon-settles-ftc-claim-it-withheld-tips-to-delivery-drivers-for-62-million/?sh=72c6cb656c56 https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidjeans/2021/02/02/amazon-se...

AlexandrB 4y ago
"The awful thing about life is this: Everybody has their reasons." - https://en.m.wikiquote.org/wiki/The_Rules_of_the_Game https://en.m.wikiquote.org/wiki/The_Rules_of_the_Game

throwawaylinux 4y ago

In Amazon's defense, it costs almost nothing to co-opt social movements and use them to fool people into parting with their money. Very cost effective marketing I would say.

tharne 4y ago

> I cannot fathom being the person at Amazon who makes that call. Do they sleep well at night? Do they feel good about themselves? I'm sure they sleep fine. It's not the role of a retailer to promote a particular political agenda. If we all only transacted with people we agreed with, we wouldn't have a society.

andsoitis 4y ago
> It's not the role of a retailer to promote a particular political agenda. Standing up to an authority that declares some lives less valuable than others (e.g. gays, women, having slaves) is maybe a political agenda but it is moreso a moral position, and that is the thing to emphasize. The trouble is, ultimately people tend to not care enough to stick their necks out (lose money, lose a job) to stand up for what's right, unless it affects them very directly. And it is rational to not forego your own wellfare for the sake of some other group, I just wish the circle of empathy people have were larger.
- russelldjimmy 4y ago
  Can you have empathy for… - those who lack empathy? - those who declare some lives less valuable than others? - those who don’t care enough to stick their necks out to stand up for what’s right unless it affects them very directly?