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I use AdGuard which is a native Safari extension and works fine. The issue with uBlock Origin is that it expects all URLs/content to pass through the plugin an

I use AdGuard which is a native Safari extension and works fine. The issue with uBlock Origin is that it expects all URLs/content to pass through the plugin and they are not interested in any other model. AdGuard instead works by submitting rules to Safari which is significantly better for privacy and performance.

novok 4y ago
There are a lot of things that are missed by safari content blocker extensions, and it's been getting a lot worse recently. Many obvious ads are not blocked anymore. And I'm using adguard too. You need the power of a rules engine like uBlock Origin, which is able to do multiple types of filtering, pre and post rendering. There is a reason why uBlock origin insists on that model, because no other model really effectively works. Eventually although, if adblock becomes very universal, all ads are going to be served internally from the same url / server as the webpage itself, with line noise identifiers and your going to start needing ML content recognition to start blocking ads effectively again.
- threeseed 4y ago
  I hate ads as much as the next person. But we've already had examples of ad-blocking companies doing deals with advertisers to whitelist URLs and I simply don't trust them not to on-sell my browser history. So you may criticise Apple for their position but I would rather have a 90% effective ad-blocker and a guarantee that my privacy is intact. With so much data reselling going on it's simply not worth the risk.
  - cowtools 4y ago
    >But we've already had examples of ad-blocking companies doing deals with advertisers to whitelist URLs and I simply don't trust them not to on-sell my browser history. Huh? uBlock Origin is a free/open source project.
    - threeseed 4y ago
      Apple is not specifically blocking uBlock Origin. They are blocking ANY extension from being a MITM and accessing traffic/URLs.
      - ajvs 4y ago
        Which prevents powerful privacy-enhancing open-source extensions like uBlock Origin, LibRedirect and Redirector from existing on iOS.
        BoorishBears 4y ago
        And so you get back to the original point above... > So you may criticize Apple for their position but I would rather have a 90% effective ad-blocker and a guarantee that my privacy is intact. With so much data reselling going on it's simply not worth the risk.
        iasay 4y ago
        It also prevents the 90% case of nasty page replacement plugins and data theft extensions which are extremely common on other platforms.
        cowtools 4y ago
        Luckily, 100% of those malware plugins can already be avoided by voluntarily choosing to not install them. This isn't a decision for apple or any other manufacturer to make. If you need an authority figure to babysit you while you use a computer then you shouldn't be using a computer in the first place, you should be in a nursing home.
        iasay 4y ago
        This is selection bias. Clearly you’ve never met an average computer user then. Malicious web pages force extensions on you which users do install.
  - zyuiop 4y ago
    Yeah but the point of this discussion is that _Apple doesn't even give you the choice here._ If you want to do it this way, please do, but this is not a reason to prevent other people from doing things differently.
    - dwighttk 4y ago
      Apple does give you the choice: Go buy Android.
  - SllX 4y ago
    > But we've already had examples of ad-blocking companies doing deals with advertisers to whitelist URLs and I simply don't trust them not to on-sell my browser history. As I recall, uBlock Origin originated as a direct response to ad-blockers engaging in exactly this behavior. Content blockers are nice, but I’m going to have to agree they are necessary but insufficient on my phone. uBlock Origin as it exists in say Firefox is pretty much exactly what I want and I’d be able to probably uninstall every other ad-blocking extension. I appreciate that Apple tried this approach initially but it’s time to change course and allow more powerful ad-blockers to also exist.
- systoll 4y ago
  uBlock Origin isn’t on iOS, but as of IOS15 the Safari Extension API has everything uBlock would use. AdGuard implements similar script-based blocking if you buy & turn on its ‘advanced protection’
  - Nextgrid 4y ago
    > as of IOS15 the Safari Extension API has everything uBlock would use Does it? My understanding is that the Safari Extension API isn't suitable for uBlock Origin: https://github.com/el1t/uBlock-Safari/issues/158 https://github.com/el1t/uBlock-Safari/issues/158
  - lapcat 4y ago
    > uBlock Origin isn’t on iOS, but as of IOS15 the Safari Extension API has everything uBlock would use. It doesn't. See all of the "Not supported" in this list, especially blocking webRequest: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/safariservices/safari_web_extensions/assessing_your_safari_web_extension_s_browser_compatibility https://developer.apple.com/documentation/safariservices/saf...
- ezfe 4y ago
  Can you give me an example? I use Wipr and I don't see ads when I browse the web. Safari Content Blockers supports CSS queries and URL matching. For where those don't work, extensions can still interact and modify the DOM.
izacus 4y ago
> AdGuard instead works by submitting rules to Safari which is significantly better for privacy and performance. This is the "Manifest v3" model that Chrome is trying to implement and has been called out by HN as being extremely anti-privacy and a scheme to cripple ad blockers? You're putting this up as a comparable approach?
- kouteiheika 4y ago
  It's the usual HN bias where if Google does something it's bad, but when Apple does it it's suddenly okay.
  - ntauthority 4y ago
    With Chrome, it's taking away. With Safari extensions, it's adding functionality that didn't exist before. Compare 'some ad blocking' to 'no ad blocking at all' - you go from 100% of ads being shown to maybe 5-10% (and a lot of broken sites due to less advanced rules). Still not the ~0% people are used to on an open platform, but the iOS default was worse.
    - lapcat 4y ago
      > With Chrome, it's taking away. With Safari extensions, it's adding functionality that didn't exist before. Incorrect. uBlock Origin previously existed for Safari, but Safari version 13 removed support for the old safariextz format and the Safari Extension Gallery.
    - kouteiheika 4y ago
      > With Chrome, it's taking away. With Safari extensions, it's adding functionality that didn't exist before. Except on PC and Android you have the choice of either a) using something else (e.g. Firefox) or b) revert the changes you don't like, compile your own Chromium and use it. Apple doesn't give you any choice on iOS, it's either their way or highway. Apple is not the savior here. Yes, Google doesn't act in the best interest of the open web, but if Apple was in charge there'd be no open web in the first place.
  - 4y ago
the_gipsy 4y ago
You cannot say "it works fine" if you've ever used uBlock origin.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
matheusmoreira 4y ago
You're completely in the right to worry about your privacy. I also agree that submitting rules that the browser can enforce without revealing any data to the extension is the proper API for 99% of extensions out there. However, uBlock Origin is such an important extension that these limits shouldn't really apply to it. I think it's so useful and important that it should be a standard feature of every single browser out there, if not entire operating systems. The problem is browser makers are deeply involved with advertising and we can't trust them to implement ad blocking features due to conflicts of interest, so we have to trust uBlock Origin for now.

novok 4y ago

There are a lot of things that are missed by safari content blocker extensions, and it's been getting a lot worse recently. Many obvious ads are not blocked anymore. And I'm using adguard too. You need the power of a rules engine like uBlock Origin, which is able to do multiple types of filtering, pre and post rendering. There is a reason why uBlock origin insists on that model, because no other model really effectively works. Eventually although, if adblock becomes very universal, all ads are going to be served internally from the same url / server as the webpage itself, with line noise identifiers and your going to start needing ML content recognition to start blocking ads effectively again.

threeseed 4y ago
I hate ads as much as the next person. But we've already had examples of ad-blocking companies doing deals with advertisers to whitelist URLs and I simply don't trust them not to on-sell my browser history. So you may criticise Apple for their position but I would rather have a 90% effective ad-blocker and a guarantee that my privacy is intact. With so much data reselling going on it's simply not worth the risk.
- cowtools 4y ago
  >But we've already had examples of ad-blocking companies doing deals with advertisers to whitelist URLs and I simply don't trust them not to on-sell my browser history. Huh? uBlock Origin is a free/open source project.
  - threeseed 4y ago
    Apple is not specifically blocking uBlock Origin. They are blocking ANY extension from being a MITM and accessing traffic/URLs.
    - ajvs 4y ago
      Which prevents powerful privacy-enhancing open-source extensions like uBlock Origin, LibRedirect and Redirector from existing on iOS.
      - BoorishBears 4y ago
        And so you get back to the original point above... > So you may criticize Apple for their position but I would rather have a 90% effective ad-blocker and a guarantee that my privacy is intact. With so much data reselling going on it's simply not worth the risk.
      - iasay 4y ago
        It also prevents the 90% case of nasty page replacement plugins and data theft extensions which are extremely common on other platforms.
        cowtools 4y ago
        Luckily, 100% of those malware plugins can already be avoided by voluntarily choosing to not install them. This isn't a decision for apple or any other manufacturer to make. If you need an authority figure to babysit you while you use a computer then you shouldn't be using a computer in the first place, you should be in a nursing home.
        iasay 4y ago
        This is selection bias. Clearly you’ve never met an average computer user then. Malicious web pages force extensions on you which users do install.
- zyuiop 4y ago
  Yeah but the point of this discussion is that _Apple doesn't even give you the choice here._ If you want to do it this way, please do, but this is not a reason to prevent other people from doing things differently.
  - dwighttk 4y ago
    Apple does give you the choice: Go buy Android.
- SllX 4y ago
  > But we've already had examples of ad-blocking companies doing deals with advertisers to whitelist URLs and I simply don't trust them not to on-sell my browser history. As I recall, uBlock Origin originated as a direct response to ad-blockers engaging in exactly this behavior. Content blockers are nice, but I’m going to have to agree they are necessary but insufficient on my phone. uBlock Origin as it exists in say Firefox is pretty much exactly what I want and I’d be able to probably uninstall every other ad-blocking extension. I appreciate that Apple tried this approach initially but it’s time to change course and allow more powerful ad-blockers to also exist.
systoll 4y ago
uBlock Origin isn’t on iOS, but as of IOS15 the Safari Extension API has everything uBlock would use. AdGuard implements similar script-based blocking if you buy & turn on its ‘advanced protection’
- Nextgrid 4y ago
  > as of IOS15 the Safari Extension API has everything uBlock would use Does it? My understanding is that the Safari Extension API isn't suitable for uBlock Origin: https://github.com/el1t/uBlock-Safari/issues/158 https://github.com/el1t/uBlock-Safari/issues/158
- lapcat 4y ago
  > uBlock Origin isn’t on iOS, but as of IOS15 the Safari Extension API has everything uBlock would use. It doesn't. See all of the "Not supported" in this list, especially blocking webRequest: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/safariservices/safari_web_extensions/assessing_your_safari_web_extension_s_browser_compatibility https://developer.apple.com/documentation/safariservices/saf...
ezfe 4y ago
Can you give me an example? I use Wipr and I don't see ads when I browse the web. Safari Content Blockers supports CSS queries and URL matching. For where those don't work, extensions can still interact and modify the DOM.

izacus 4y ago

> AdGuard instead works by submitting rules to Safari which is significantly better for privacy and performance. This is the "Manifest v3" model that Chrome is trying to implement and has been called out by HN as being extremely anti-privacy and a scheme to cripple ad blockers? You're putting this up as a comparable approach?

kouteiheika 4y ago
It's the usual HN bias where if Google does something it's bad, but when Apple does it it's suddenly okay.
- ntauthority 4y ago
  With Chrome, it's taking away. With Safari extensions, it's adding functionality that didn't exist before. Compare 'some ad blocking' to 'no ad blocking at all' - you go from 100% of ads being shown to maybe 5-10% (and a lot of broken sites due to less advanced rules). Still not the ~0% people are used to on an open platform, but the iOS default was worse.
  - lapcat 4y ago
    > With Chrome, it's taking away. With Safari extensions, it's adding functionality that didn't exist before. Incorrect. uBlock Origin previously existed for Safari, but Safari version 13 removed support for the old safariextz format and the Safari Extension Gallery.
  - kouteiheika 4y ago
    > With Chrome, it's taking away. With Safari extensions, it's adding functionality that didn't exist before. Except on PC and Android you have the choice of either a) using something else (e.g. Firefox) or b) revert the changes you don't like, compile your own Chromium and use it. Apple doesn't give you any choice on iOS, it's either their way or highway. Apple is not the savior here. Yes, Google doesn't act in the best interest of the open web, but if Apple was in charge there'd be no open web in the first place.
- 4y ago

the_gipsy 4y ago

You cannot say "it works fine" if you've ever used uBlock origin.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

matheusmoreira 4y ago

You're completely in the right to worry about your privacy. I also agree that submitting rules that the browser can enforce without revealing any data to the extension is the proper API for 99% of extensions out there. However, uBlock Origin is such an important extension that these limits shouldn't really apply to it. I think it's so useful and important that it should be a standard feature of every single browser out there, if not entire operating systems. The problem is browser makers are deeply involved with advertising and we can't trust them to implement ad blocking features due to conflicts of interest, so we have to trust uBlock Origin for now.