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Sleeping longer than 6.5 hours/day can help you lose weight: study

260 points by sgfgross 4y ago

theodric 4y ago
Fewer hours awake is fewer hours snacking. When I was doing a big weight loss I'd be very careful about putting myself to bed at like 22:00, because the later I'm awake, the greater my risk of snacks and booze entering the picture.
patorjk 4y ago
> Researchers from the University of Chicago and the University of Wisconsin-Madison found that study participants consumed on average 270 calories less per day over two weeks if they slept at least one hour more than normal. When I saw the title I suspected it was related to eating more if you slept less. I find myself doing this when I cheat myself out of a goodnight's sleep.
- tekla 4y ago
  Yeah. "You eat less when you literally don't have time to be eating since you are sleeping" Amazing
  - User23 4y ago
    This is incorrect. Getting less sleep directly up-regulates appetite. It's not just more time to eat, it's increased food craving.
    - mckirk 4y ago
      Also makes sense if you think about it; little opportunity for sleeping was likely an indicator of external stressors during our evolution, so up-regulatibg energy intake during those times seems reasonable.
    - throw1234651234 4y ago
      There is also that whole thing about testosterones levels plumetting when under-sleeping.
    - tekla 4y ago
      Source it. The linked article does not make that claim
      - pcorsaro 4y ago
        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3763921/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3763921/ Anecdotally, I can also attest that I'm much more likely to want junk food if I haven't slept enough. Just do a quick google search for "lack of sleep hunger" and you'll see tons of articles and papers popup.
      - yissp 4y ago
        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC535701/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC535701/
- AlwaysRock 4y ago
  100%. If I sleep less I feel hungrier and justify eating more snacks or shittier food.
- PebblesRox 4y ago
  When I'm tired, I find myself eating in an attempt to feel better, even though hunger is not the problem. It doesn't work very well and stops helping at all as soon as I stop eating.
djangovm 4y ago
I sleep between 6 to 7 hrs a day, and find it very hard to go back to sleep if woken up in between. Has anyone successfully changed their sleeping habits? If yes, how?
- toomuchtodo 4y ago
  Eye mask. iPhone in sleep mode at 7pm local time. In bed lights out no later than 9-10pm. Alarm set for 8am on wfh days, 7am on rare travel days when I have to catch a flight. TLDR actively defend your sleep time. People think it’s wasted time, but it’s the most important work for long term health (including long term brain health). Money doesn’t buy back beating your body into the ground.
  - captainkrtek 4y ago
    Same here. I find reading (book, kindle) before bed, drinking water to cool down, and not being on my phone for a couple hours help quite a bit
  - wincy 4y ago
    Geez no wonder I have so many problems. I wake up at 8am and don’t go to sleep until 1-2am every night.
  - antihero 4y ago
    What time do you end up actually going to sleep and waking up? 10-8 would be 10 hours sleep.
  - bergenty 4y ago
    So 10-11 hours a day? That’s a waste of life. I don’t mean you can’t be productive, I just mean you don’t have enough time for existence.
    - toomuchtodo 4y ago
      Respectfully, living well isn’t a waste of life. I live to enjoy my life (which I only get one of), and getting enough sleep to enjoy my day being well rested is a component of that. I’m not always sleeping 10 hours, but I’m never getting less than 8 hours. I let me body decide.
ARandomerDude 4y ago
The .pdf of the actual study is available here: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2788694 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullar...
howmayiannoyyou 4y ago
Not exactly. Sleep quality (phase) plays a big role in this. Non-restorative sleep, regardless of duration, is not going to result in meaningful weight loss. The exception being that if you sleep through 1 or 2 meals it might, but that suggests other problems.
- tekla 4y ago
  The study seems to directly contradict this statement
- charlieflowers 4y ago
  Is this controversial or commonly accepted? Also, anyone know of ways laypersons can assess whether their sleep is non-restorative?
  - lloeki 4y ago
    personal experience X a bit of personal research on the matter: - deep sleep is restorative (AIUI the brain needs deep sleep otherwise it poisons itself, whereas e.g muscles don't, they need rest) - light sleep is important too but I feel that was not the question - I noticed I had a hard time falling asleep early/at "normal" hours - even if I did, waking up before 9am made me feel terrible through the day until 4pm, even though I had 8-12h of sleep - I got a fitness device (back then fitbit charge HR, now garmin forerunner 735xt) for unrelated reasons but figured out any data could be helpful as long as I'm aware of the limitations and error margins. Either device I had/have cannot record REM sleep, only deep+light+movement (via HR monitor+accelerometers) - over five years, data shows that either I sleep no earlier than 1am, or when I sleep before, it's only light sleep and a lot of movement, deep sleep starting between 1-3am - also, attempts at imposing myself an earlier sleep schedule (in order to get 8h of sleep given I started work at 9am) resulted in worse sleep/later deep sleep - sometimes on a given night, cumulative deep sleep as reported may look to be enough (e.g 3-4h) but looking at that night timeline graph showed that it was extremely segmented instead of a couple or three chunks - even if I'm extremely tired I cannot sleep before 1am. it's that or I sleep at 7-9pm and wake up within an hour after 23pm, theb can't get back to sleep until 3-4am - exercise helps (1h a day), circadian lighting helps (via home assistant + ikea tradfri), reading before sleep helps, time outside helps, sex helps, but any of that does not offset my schedule, it only makes it so I get more/better deep sleep - food doesn't seem to have much of an effect on me, except sugary stuff which makes me twitchy, and pasta which makes me sleepy but sleep quality is no better (and actually worse because it screws up my schedule) - caffeine has a measurable effect when taken after 2pm, non measurable before that - alcohol ruins my deep sleep with some linear-ish correlation - I also tracked weight, with bad sleep I could eat very little and not lose extra weight, but as soon as I get good sleep over a long enough duration, I can shed extra weight quickly, irrespective of food or exercise Overall, the device helped a lot in clearing some biases and understanding myself better, even though its data is imperfect and imprecise (e.g sometimes data is obviously messed up, sometimes it can't account for odd sleeping events) but being cognizant of that allowed me to interpret said data, understand specific events and long term trends, and manage my sleep schedule. EDIT: scratch the 5 years, I just checked and it's actually 8 years, with some gaps. goddammit time flies.
User23 4y ago
Getting sufficient sleep is on the same level of importance for overall health as proper exercise and nutrition. Among other things, sleep is when the majority of most people's fat loss occurs, because the body is in a fasted state, oxidizing lipids for basal energy needs, and expelling the resultant Carbon Dioxide and water. There are a great many other metabolic systems in the body that are detrimentally affected by a lack of sleep too. It's quite important to get enough!
racl101 4y ago
My brain thinks about way too much shit at night to be able to sleep longer. I'd basically have to give up caffeine to achieve this.
- User23 4y ago
  If your caffeine use is interfering with your sleep, then it's adversely affecting your overall health. That's generally a good reason to discontinue or limit use of a substance. I get it though, we all like our pleasures in life. But some of them aren't good for us, so we have to choose between the short term pleasure of substance use versus the long term pleasure of not just longer life, but higher quality life when we're older.
  - racl101 4y ago
    That would be tough for me. I don't smoke. I don't drink. I don't toke. I don't gamble. Only vice I have is drinking coffee and eating burgers. Coffee is one of those few things that brings me a lotta joy.
- petercooper 4y ago
  I started listening to podcasts/audiobooks as I went to sleep about 10 years ago due to this and it hugely decreased the time it took to fall asleep. Unusual to be more than 10 minutes now.
hnbad 4y ago
Does the study correct for the reason why the participants slept less than 6.5h/day? I'd suspect for many people the reason they don't get enough sleep is also the reason they find it difficult to maintain an optimal diet or exercise (and thus gain weight), i.e. stress.
- loeg 4y ago
  For me it’s at least partially a choice. I’m not too stressed but find it easy to stay up late if I don’t make an effort to go to bed. (I had already observed that when I sleep more, it’s easier to lose weight.)
ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
I think it may be correct, but I still think we need to eat less, and exercise more. > if the sleep extension was maintained for a period of 3 years, it would result in approximately 12kg of weight loss. Sounds a bit simplistic. https://xkcd.com/605/ https://xkcd.com/605/
- boplicity 4y ago
  That may be true for most people, however, there are many conditions that cause obesity outside of those two factors. Unfortunately, people are judged for being obese, even if it is due to a chronic illness or other factors outside of their direct control. Nothing wrong with promoting healthy eating and exercise, but unfortunately, this often turns into negative judgement against people that do not deserve it. These negative judgements often cause real harm. I know people whose doctors have dismissed all symptoms of real diseases, simply because they were obese. "Just lose weight" is what they've been told, far too often, when, in fact, there were serious conditions that needed immediate treatment. So yes, promote healthy habits, but please do so carefully, and without judgement.
  - ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
    I'm sure as hell not one to judge. I'm not exactly Charles Atlas (so you now know I'm old, as well as plump). I just do enough to try keeping the ticker going. Last time I checked, I was about 40 lbs over what I should be. I walk three miles, each morning, and have (regretfully) stopped eating a lot of stuff I used to love (as I get older, more and more stuff disagrees with me. It's been years since I've had ice cream). Nevertheless, I still wear pants with a waist bigger than the inseam, which is why I'm skeptical of their "math."
  - PuppyTailWags 4y ago
    Voicing an agreement with this. We know certain serious health conditions can actually cause obesity, so excessive attribution of symptoms to weight often makes things worse. More than once I've come across cases where someone's obesity is used to eg. overlook unexplained weight loss (an obvious cancer indication).
endorphine 4y ago
Title could be shortened to: Sleeping longer than 6.5h/day can help lose weight
- dang 4y ago
  I haven't looked at the article but that does seem to follow tautologically from the submitted title ("Sleeping longer can help lose weight if you are sleeping less than 6.5h/day").
francisofascii 4y ago
They say junk food cravings increase when sleep deprived. Anecdotally, very true for me. My will power to choose good foods goes out the window when I am tired.
- nelsonfigueroa 4y ago
  I can relate to this. I feel pretty terrible when I don't sleep well and I rely on junk food to make me feel "better".
freecodyx 4y ago
I am an energetic person. I really find it very hard to fall asleep. But once i do, i really go into deep sleep, 7 to 8 hours of deep sleep. Also i am in my thirties. And i am still very fit and athletic body shape. Ppl are always surprised to know know that i am 30+ I only eat healthy food. Because i am very selective when it come to food and i don’t feel hungry much. My brother used to be in a great shape. But past 30 he become overweight. Sleep is good but what you eat and how much you eat is the key
camhart 4y ago
Ive found if I sleep less I eat more and I feel like garbage so I eat more junk food. I need my sleep.
- bbojan 4y ago
  That's the effect of high gherlin and low leptin. It's a well known fact. When I was in the military on guard duty (very funky sleep schedule, you have 4 hours of duty then 2 hours for "sleep"), I was constantly hungry.
Shadonototra 4y ago
the only thing that works: burn more calories than you take don't eat transformed food eat 1 cheat meal a week to wake up your metabolism, it can be anything, really, ice cream, pizza, burgers, anything
jhoelzel 4y ago
the term "sleep for dinner" applies for this too i think. If you consume less because you sleep an hour more, it might simply be the that the 200 calories of the nonsleepers are eating out of boredom.
friedman23 4y ago
As someone that has been having success with long term weight loss. Wow this topic brings out the absolute worst people with the strongest opinions. There is no hope for ending the obesity pandemic.
swatcoder 4y ago
Remember that studies almost never make the strong claims that headlines do. What the study actually demonstrates is more narrow, as befits science: "Overweight young adults who usually sleep less then 6.5 hours a day and are coached in sleep hygiene tend to sleep about an hour longer, consume fewer calories proportional to how much more they sleep, and have no significant change in today daily energy expenditure" https://oa.mg/work/10.1001/jamainternmed.2021.8098 https://oa.mg/work/10.1001/jamainternmed.2021.8098
- civilized 4y ago
  I enjoy a round of "the media distorted science again" as much as anyone, but this seems misleading. The abstract literally makes a weight loss finding: > No significant treatment effect in total energy expenditure was found, resulting in weight reduction in the sleep extension group vs the control group. I don't see any way in which the headline made stronger claims than the science. Simplification, or omitting details, is not the same as hyperbole or misrepresentation.
  - bfgoodrich 4y ago
  - swatcoder 4y ago
    The headline suggests that the findings are generally applicable and that the weight loss comes simply from sleeping more than 6.5 hours per night. The study -- which is a great study -- demonstrates neither of those things. The study has no demonstrated applicability to: * older adults * teenagers or children * BMI obese individuals * BMI normal/underweight individuals * people who already sleep more than 6.5 hours per night * people who sleep longer without being counseled in sleep hygiene as performed by the clinicians -- which presumably involves a comprehensive set of sleep guidelines and possibly even personalized assignment of guidelines and other forms of coaching Do you think most people reading the headline or even the article would recognize that? Do you think most commenters did?
    - 4y ago
YesThatTom2 4y ago
One anecdote is not data but… True fact: when I was seriously losing weight I found that more sleep was key to my success. I don’t snack when I’m sleeping!
- steve_adams_86 4y ago
  You can also make better decisions and regulate yourself better with sleep. My weakness with food is always when stress and sleep hit some critical level where I can’t look at bad food and say “that’s not worth it”. It’s strange to think/admit but I am at the mercy of chemicals in that situation. My will power is best put towards getting to sleep on time and not buying junk in the first place. I tend to lose the battle if I’m tired and there is junk around. Here I am playing 1.5D chess with my biology, but what the hell. I’m no Jocko Willink.
  - tacon 4y ago
    Here is a test of your will power. Next time you see some junk food in your pantry, pick it up, take it to your outside garbage can, open the package, and dump it irretrievably into the container. Once you do that the first time, you switch from "The kind of weak person who buys junk food." to "The kind of strong person who has weak moments, but junk food does not define me, and I can destroy it even after I bought it."
    - SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
      That seems like it's a little too empowering, feels as if you're saying that as long as an addict can flush their drugs they have their addiction beat.
      - picture 4y ago
        It's certainly a powerful step in the right direction though. Modulating your self identity really is a strong way to start breaking down bad habits or starting good habits consistently. Besides my own experience, I think there was a thread here a while back about "getting in character" to achieve unusual results
softwaredoug 4y ago
I recommend too if you're over 40, or in any way have disrupted sleep, to nap 20-30 mins after lunch. Its a great life hack if you WFH and helps cope with so many sleep issues with aging IMO. It seems to help me and a large number of my colleagues > 40 years :)
- jonny_eh 4y ago
  I'm 39 and have found naps transformative!
- civilized 4y ago
  I've never been able to nap and it doesn't seem to be changing as I approach 40. If I'm desperately exhausted or stressed from sleep deprivation, I can sometimes lie down and rest and then get up feeling sort of refreshed. That's usually the closest I get.
  - Auracle 4y ago
    It’s amazing how much better you feel even from just lying down for a while. I wonder how much is from the physical act and how much is from the mental. If it’s the former one of those crazy computer setups where you can recline significantly could help. For what it’s worth, the opposite also works for me. I have a standing desk and walking treadmill and I find walking helps keep me alert.
    - civilized 4y ago
      Pretty much my exact experience except I don't have the walking treadmill yet. Wish I could recover more from lying down but it helps. Going outside for a walk is more often my go-to.
    - QuercusMax 4y ago
      For me one key to be able to rest / nap is to make sure I have my phone on silent and away from me, then set a 20 or 30 minute timer to ensure I don't rest too long. Knowing that anything that you need to respond to will only have to wait 20 or 30 minutes helps me detach and relax. Lying down for 20 minutes, 15 of which is sleep, is extremely restorative, and I can do it several times during the day if I'm really struggling.
wrycoder 4y ago
> In other words, if the sleep extension was maintained for a period of 3 years, it would result in approximately 12kg of weight loss. LOL. That’s not how this stuff works, as any dieter can tell you.
- l33t2328 4y ago
  A “dieter” mindset rarely leads to sustained weight loss because they rarely last 3 years. Too many people go on a diet when they should really be changing their diet.
  - wrycoder 4y ago
    Even that doesn't work all that well - the metabolism adjusts. (I'm experienced with long-term low-glycemic diets. It's better to go off the diet once in a while to "fool" the body.)
ufmace 4y ago
I've become extremely skeptical of this type of study. IMO, sleep needs and patterns vary so much between individuals that it's basically impossible for highly generic advice like this to be meaningful.
- cbozeman 4y ago
  This is just patently untrue. Matthew Walker has been on a half dozen podcasts addressing this and almost all the data available in sleep research seems to suggest a lot of the same shit. Get 8 hours of sleep. No you can't function on 6. You just think you can. Have a sleep study done to see if you have sleep apnea, need a CPAP / BPAP. Don't drink alcohol and caffeine before bedtime. Don't look at screens about 2-3 hours before bedtime. This applies to over 99% of all the individuals they tested.
  - anotherman554 4y ago
    There is no expert consensus saying people should get 8 hours of sleep. And also no evidence that humans naturally get 8 hours of sleep.
  - ufmace 4y ago
    Yeah no I don't buy that at all. This is so completely at odds with my experience and that of every single person I have ever met that I won't accept that this one dude supposedly knows better.
    - cbozeman 4y ago
      Yes, the world's leading sleep researcher is wrong. Only on Hacker News... maybe Reddit, could you find this level of confusion.
      - selimthegrim 4y ago
        Walker has been criticized about his graphs in that book before…which you should know if you read Hacker News
m3kw9 4y ago
Less time awake = less time to eat
Auracle 4y ago
Relevant to both parts of this study: I can’t recommend a walking treadmill with an electric standing desk enough. I walk about 4-5 hours a day at ~2 mph. I can eat what I want and maintain my weight (or lose it), I’m more alert during the day and I sleep better at night. The only real issue is that if I have to think particularly hard on a problem I might have to step off of the treadmill/turn it off for a bit. I work from home and most of my work isn’t mentally challenging, so I know I have it better than most. Still, for anyone who thinks it might be doable for them I’d recommend it. It takes a while to get used to, but it happens. Right now I’d love to find a way to incline the treadmill easily to increase the challenge without increasing the speed. Plus, you should see my calves. The bottom half of some pants look like leggings on me.
- Qub3d 4y ago
  Nice! I personally have been amazed at my own increase in energy and weight loss simply by using a sit/stand desk and getting a fitness tracker. The hourly reminders to move really do show the science is right on when it comes to how effective even a few minutes of movement regularly throughout the day improves your health.
- vaishaksuresh 4y ago
  Do you mind sharing what treadmill you use?
  - minsc_and_boo 4y ago
    Not them, but IME anything that uses slat-belts is best for minimizing impact on your body (which adds up over daily use).
  - koonsolo 4y ago
    For me, I have an electric standing desk from IKEA, and a FlowFitness walking pad. Very pleased with that, since I can fold it and roll it out of the way with the wheels, once I want to sit down. https://www.flowfitness.com/treadmills/dtm100i/ https://www.flowfitness.com/treadmills/dtm100i/
  - 4y ago
more_corn 4y ago
People sleep less than 6.5 hours a night?
maerF0x0 4y ago
I feel like this has been known forever in the fitness industry / community. They've been saying for so long that 1. Sleeping more means less eating (both because you're asleep, duh, and because ghrelin is reduced) 2. Sleeping more means weight loss is higher % from body fat (not lean mass) 3. Sleep is important for recovery for training and then you can exercise again sooner For me I have a guideline that Sleep > Nutrition > Exercise > <bucket for all the other things, eg supplements> -- such that I will sacrifice the lesser thing if it means I do better with the greater thing. If I have to choose between getting at least 7 hours sleep or exercise, I sleep. (Ideally getting 8-9hrs sleep for my body) If I have to choose between having satiating, low calorie - high nutrition foods in the house, and exercising, I go grocery shopping or get chopping.
- amalcon 4y ago
  To play devil's advocate here, there are several things that have or had been "known forever in the fitness industry / community", which are just plain false. "No pain, no gain" is probably the most famous.
mediumsmart 4y ago
thank you for the subscribe popup modal telling me I don't have to read the whole thing.
jcadam 4y ago
Probably would. I get 6 hours of sleep on a good day. I also work about 12 hrs a day. I do make sure to squeeze in a half hour of running most days.
- H8crilA 4y ago
  I hope you're getting a good seven figure salary/payoff for all that effort!
  - jcadam 4y ago
    LOL, no. Low six figures. 15+ years as a SWE. We can't all pull FAANG salaries.
sujitjadhav 4y ago
Jor jor se bolke sabko scheme bata de.
KaiserPro 4y ago
> Sleeping longer than 6.5 hours/day can help you lose weight so can dysentery
shadowdev 4y ago
This just in: sleep is important for health.
pedalpete 4y ago
This article completely ignores the known "why". There are multiple factors in sleep that would have an influence on weight. 1) when you are sleep deprived, or don't get enough sleep, you have increased insulin resistence, which is related to increased fat stores [1] 2) reduced sleep causes you to crave sugary and fatty foods as a source [2] The idea from the article that sleep gained over x years would result in a * b reduction in weight is ludicrous. It doesn't work that way. I work in the sleep space as the founder of https://soundmind.co https://soundmind.co we're focused on improving Sleep Performance, the neurological function of sleep. Our DeepWave auditory stimulation is focused on some of the brains mechanisms that are associated with the insulin resistance mentioned above (https://soundmind.co/research https://soundmind.co/research). Happy to answer any questions. [1]https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnut.2018.00077/full#:~:text=Insulin%20resistance%20(IR)%20and%20related,the%20development%20of%20cardiometabolic%20diseases https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnut.2018.00077.... [2]https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/getting-more-sleep-can-reduce-food-cravings/#:~:text=Studies%20show%20that%20even%20a,even%20the%20thought)%20of%20food https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/getting-more-slee....
- senectus1 4y ago
  > 2) reduced sleep causes you to crave sugary and fatty foods as a source [2] absolutely. I've definitely noticed this. Its a big part of how I'm trying to manage my weight gain, just being aware of this effect.
jnash 4y ago
You loose weight by lowering your insulin enough to start burning fat. Sleeping longer means that your insulin stays lower for longer. So the real reason is the benefit of lowering your insulin. Not sleep itself.

260 points by sgfgross 4y ago

Fewer hours awake is fewer hours snacking. When I was doing a big weight loss I'd be very careful about putting myself to bed at like 22:00, because the later I'm awake, the greater my risk of snacks and booze entering the picture.

patorjk 4y ago

> Researchers from the University of Chicago and the University of Wisconsin-Madison found that study participants consumed on average 270 calories less per day over two weeks if they slept at least one hour more than normal. When I saw the title I suspected it was related to eating more if you slept less. I find myself doing this when I cheat myself out of a goodnight's sleep.

tekla 4y ago
Yeah. "You eat less when you literally don't have time to be eating since you are sleeping" Amazing
- User23 4y ago
  This is incorrect. Getting less sleep directly up-regulates appetite. It's not just more time to eat, it's increased food craving.
  - mckirk 4y ago
    Also makes sense if you think about it; little opportunity for sleeping was likely an indicator of external stressors during our evolution, so up-regulatibg energy intake during those times seems reasonable.
  - throw1234651234 4y ago
    There is also that whole thing about testosterones levels plumetting when under-sleeping.
  - tekla 4y ago
    Source it. The linked article does not make that claim
    - pcorsaro 4y ago
      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3763921/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3763921/ Anecdotally, I can also attest that I'm much more likely to want junk food if I haven't slept enough. Just do a quick google search for "lack of sleep hunger" and you'll see tons of articles and papers popup.
    - yissp 4y ago
      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC535701/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC535701/
AlwaysRock 4y ago
100%. If I sleep less I feel hungrier and justify eating more snacks or shittier food.
PebblesRox 4y ago
When I'm tired, I find myself eating in an attempt to feel better, even though hunger is not the problem. It doesn't work very well and stops helping at all as soon as I stop eating.

djangovm 4y ago

I sleep between 6 to 7 hrs a day, and find it very hard to go back to sleep if woken up in between. Has anyone successfully changed their sleeping habits? If yes, how?

toomuchtodo 4y ago
Eye mask. iPhone in sleep mode at 7pm local time. In bed lights out no later than 9-10pm. Alarm set for 8am on wfh days, 7am on rare travel days when I have to catch a flight. TLDR actively defend your sleep time. People think it’s wasted time, but it’s the most important work for long term health (including long term brain health). Money doesn’t buy back beating your body into the ground.
- captainkrtek 4y ago
  Same here. I find reading (book, kindle) before bed, drinking water to cool down, and not being on my phone for a couple hours help quite a bit
- wincy 4y ago
  Geez no wonder I have so many problems. I wake up at 8am and don’t go to sleep until 1-2am every night.
- antihero 4y ago
  What time do you end up actually going to sleep and waking up? 10-8 would be 10 hours sleep.
- bergenty 4y ago
  So 10-11 hours a day? That’s a waste of life. I don’t mean you can’t be productive, I just mean you don’t have enough time for existence.
  - toomuchtodo 4y ago
    Respectfully, living well isn’t a waste of life. I live to enjoy my life (which I only get one of), and getting enough sleep to enjoy my day being well rested is a component of that. I’m not always sleeping 10 hours, but I’m never getting less than 8 hours. I let me body decide.

ARandomerDude 4y ago

The .pdf of the actual study is available here: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2788694 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullar...

howmayiannoyyou 4y ago

Not exactly. Sleep quality (phase) plays a big role in this. Non-restorative sleep, regardless of duration, is not going to result in meaningful weight loss. The exception being that if you sleep through 1 or 2 meals it might, but that suggests other problems.

tekla 4y ago
The study seems to directly contradict this statement
charlieflowers 4y ago
Is this controversial or commonly accepted? Also, anyone know of ways laypersons can assess whether their sleep is non-restorative?
- lloeki 4y ago
  personal experience X a bit of personal research on the matter: - deep sleep is restorative (AIUI the brain needs deep sleep otherwise it poisons itself, whereas e.g muscles don't, they need rest) - light sleep is important too but I feel that was not the question - I noticed I had a hard time falling asleep early/at "normal" hours - even if I did, waking up before 9am made me feel terrible through the day until 4pm, even though I had 8-12h of sleep - I got a fitness device (back then fitbit charge HR, now garmin forerunner 735xt) for unrelated reasons but figured out any data could be helpful as long as I'm aware of the limitations and error margins. Either device I had/have cannot record REM sleep, only deep+light+movement (via HR monitor+accelerometers) - over five years, data shows that either I sleep no earlier than 1am, or when I sleep before, it's only light sleep and a lot of movement, deep sleep starting between 1-3am - also, attempts at imposing myself an earlier sleep schedule (in order to get 8h of sleep given I started work at 9am) resulted in worse sleep/later deep sleep - sometimes on a given night, cumulative deep sleep as reported may look to be enough (e.g 3-4h) but looking at that night timeline graph showed that it was extremely segmented instead of a couple or three chunks - even if I'm extremely tired I cannot sleep before 1am. it's that or I sleep at 7-9pm and wake up within an hour after 23pm, theb can't get back to sleep until 3-4am - exercise helps (1h a day), circadian lighting helps (via home assistant + ikea tradfri), reading before sleep helps, time outside helps, sex helps, but any of that does not offset my schedule, it only makes it so I get more/better deep sleep - food doesn't seem to have much of an effect on me, except sugary stuff which makes me twitchy, and pasta which makes me sleepy but sleep quality is no better (and actually worse because it screws up my schedule) - caffeine has a measurable effect when taken after 2pm, non measurable before that - alcohol ruins my deep sleep with some linear-ish correlation - I also tracked weight, with bad sleep I could eat very little and not lose extra weight, but as soon as I get good sleep over a long enough duration, I can shed extra weight quickly, irrespective of food or exercise Overall, the device helped a lot in clearing some biases and understanding myself better, even though its data is imperfect and imprecise (e.g sometimes data is obviously messed up, sometimes it can't account for odd sleeping events) but being cognizant of that allowed me to interpret said data, understand specific events and long term trends, and manage my sleep schedule. EDIT: scratch the 5 years, I just checked and it's actually 8 years, with some gaps. goddammit time flies.

User23 4y ago

Getting sufficient sleep is on the same level of importance for overall health as proper exercise and nutrition. Among other things, sleep is when the majority of most people's fat loss occurs, because the body is in a fasted state, oxidizing lipids for basal energy needs, and expelling the resultant Carbon Dioxide and water. There are a great many other metabolic systems in the body that are detrimentally affected by a lack of sleep too. It's quite important to get enough!

racl101 4y ago

My brain thinks about way too much shit at night to be able to sleep longer. I'd basically have to give up caffeine to achieve this.

User23 4y ago
If your caffeine use is interfering with your sleep, then it's adversely affecting your overall health. That's generally a good reason to discontinue or limit use of a substance. I get it though, we all like our pleasures in life. But some of them aren't good for us, so we have to choose between the short term pleasure of substance use versus the long term pleasure of not just longer life, but higher quality life when we're older.
- racl101 4y ago
  That would be tough for me. I don't smoke. I don't drink. I don't toke. I don't gamble. Only vice I have is drinking coffee and eating burgers. Coffee is one of those few things that brings me a lotta joy.
petercooper 4y ago
I started listening to podcasts/audiobooks as I went to sleep about 10 years ago due to this and it hugely decreased the time it took to fall asleep. Unusual to be more than 10 minutes now.

hnbad 4y ago

Does the study correct for the reason why the participants slept less than 6.5h/day? I'd suspect for many people the reason they don't get enough sleep is also the reason they find it difficult to maintain an optimal diet or exercise (and thus gain weight), i.e. stress.

loeg 4y ago
For me it’s at least partially a choice. I’m not too stressed but find it easy to stay up late if I don’t make an effort to go to bed. (I had already observed that when I sleep more, it’s easier to lose weight.)

ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago

I think it may be correct, but I still think we need to eat less, and exercise more. > if the sleep extension was maintained for a period of 3 years, it would result in approximately 12kg of weight loss. Sounds a bit simplistic. https://xkcd.com/605/ https://xkcd.com/605/

boplicity 4y ago
That may be true for most people, however, there are many conditions that cause obesity outside of those two factors. Unfortunately, people are judged for being obese, even if it is due to a chronic illness or other factors outside of their direct control. Nothing wrong with promoting healthy eating and exercise, but unfortunately, this often turns into negative judgement against people that do not deserve it. These negative judgements often cause real harm. I know people whose doctors have dismissed all symptoms of real diseases, simply because they were obese. "Just lose weight" is what they've been told, far too often, when, in fact, there were serious conditions that needed immediate treatment. So yes, promote healthy habits, but please do so carefully, and without judgement.
- ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
  I'm sure as hell not one to judge. I'm not exactly Charles Atlas (so you now know I'm old, as well as plump). I just do enough to try keeping the ticker going. Last time I checked, I was about 40 lbs over what I should be. I walk three miles, each morning, and have (regretfully) stopped eating a lot of stuff I used to love (as I get older, more and more stuff disagrees with me. It's been years since I've had ice cream). Nevertheless, I still wear pants with a waist bigger than the inseam, which is why I'm skeptical of their "math."
- PuppyTailWags 4y ago
  Voicing an agreement with this. We know certain serious health conditions can actually cause obesity, so excessive attribution of symptoms to weight often makes things worse. More than once I've come across cases where someone's obesity is used to eg. overlook unexplained weight loss (an obvious cancer indication).

endorphine 4y ago

Title could be shortened to: Sleeping longer than 6.5h/day can help lose weight

dang 4y ago
I haven't looked at the article but that does seem to follow tautologically from the submitted title ("Sleeping longer can help lose weight if you are sleeping less than 6.5h/day").

francisofascii 4y ago

They say junk food cravings increase when sleep deprived. Anecdotally, very true for me. My will power to choose good foods goes out the window when I am tired.

nelsonfigueroa 4y ago
I can relate to this. I feel pretty terrible when I don't sleep well and I rely on junk food to make me feel "better".

freecodyx 4y ago

I am an energetic person. I really find it very hard to fall asleep. But once i do, i really go into deep sleep, 7 to 8 hours of deep sleep. Also i am in my thirties. And i am still very fit and athletic body shape. Ppl are always surprised to know know that i am 30+ I only eat healthy food. Because i am very selective when it come to food and i don’t feel hungry much. My brother used to be in a great shape. But past 30 he become overweight. Sleep is good but what you eat and how much you eat is the key

camhart 4y ago

Ive found if I sleep less I eat more and I feel like garbage so I eat more junk food. I need my sleep.

bbojan 4y ago
That's the effect of high gherlin and low leptin. It's a well known fact. When I was in the military on guard duty (very funky sleep schedule, you have 4 hours of duty then 2 hours for "sleep"), I was constantly hungry.

Shadonototra 4y ago

the only thing that works: burn more calories than you take don't eat transformed food eat 1 cheat meal a week to wake up your metabolism, it can be anything, really, ice cream, pizza, burgers, anything

jhoelzel 4y ago

the term "sleep for dinner" applies for this too i think. If you consume less because you sleep an hour more, it might simply be the that the 200 calories of the nonsleepers are eating out of boredom.

friedman23 4y ago

As someone that has been having success with long term weight loss. Wow this topic brings out the absolute worst people with the strongest opinions. There is no hope for ending the obesity pandemic.

swatcoder 4y ago

Remember that studies almost never make the strong claims that headlines do. What the study actually demonstrates is more narrow, as befits science: "Overweight young adults who usually sleep less then 6.5 hours a day and are coached in sleep hygiene tend to sleep about an hour longer, consume fewer calories proportional to how much more they sleep, and have no significant change in today daily energy expenditure" https://oa.mg/work/10.1001/jamainternmed.2021.8098 https://oa.mg/work/10.1001/jamainternmed.2021.8098

civilized 4y ago
I enjoy a round of "the media distorted science again" as much as anyone, but this seems misleading. The abstract literally makes a weight loss finding: > No significant treatment effect in total energy expenditure was found, resulting in weight reduction in the sleep extension group vs the control group. I don't see any way in which the headline made stronger claims than the science. Simplification, or omitting details, is not the same as hyperbole or misrepresentation.
- bfgoodrich 4y ago
- swatcoder 4y ago
  The headline suggests that the findings are generally applicable and that the weight loss comes simply from sleeping more than 6.5 hours per night. The study -- which is a great study -- demonstrates neither of those things. The study has no demonstrated applicability to: * older adults * teenagers or children * BMI obese individuals * BMI normal/underweight individuals * people who already sleep more than 6.5 hours per night * people who sleep longer without being counseled in sleep hygiene as performed by the clinicians -- which presumably involves a comprehensive set of sleep guidelines and possibly even personalized assignment of guidelines and other forms of coaching Do you think most people reading the headline or even the article would recognize that? Do you think most commenters did?
  - 4y ago

YesThatTom2 4y ago

One anecdote is not data but… True fact: when I was seriously losing weight I found that more sleep was key to my success. I don’t snack when I’m sleeping!

steve_adams_86 4y ago
You can also make better decisions and regulate yourself better with sleep. My weakness with food is always when stress and sleep hit some critical level where I can’t look at bad food and say “that’s not worth it”. It’s strange to think/admit but I am at the mercy of chemicals in that situation. My will power is best put towards getting to sleep on time and not buying junk in the first place. I tend to lose the battle if I’m tired and there is junk around. Here I am playing 1.5D chess with my biology, but what the hell. I’m no Jocko Willink.
- tacon 4y ago
  Here is a test of your will power. Next time you see some junk food in your pantry, pick it up, take it to your outside garbage can, open the package, and dump it irretrievably into the container. Once you do that the first time, you switch from "The kind of weak person who buys junk food." to "The kind of strong person who has weak moments, but junk food does not define me, and I can destroy it even after I bought it."
  - SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
    That seems like it's a little too empowering, feels as if you're saying that as long as an addict can flush their drugs they have their addiction beat.
    - picture 4y ago
      It's certainly a powerful step in the right direction though. Modulating your self identity really is a strong way to start breaking down bad habits or starting good habits consistently. Besides my own experience, I think there was a thread here a while back about "getting in character" to achieve unusual results

softwaredoug 4y ago

I recommend too if you're over 40, or in any way have disrupted sleep, to nap 20-30 mins after lunch. Its a great life hack if you WFH and helps cope with so many sleep issues with aging IMO. It seems to help me and a large number of my colleagues > 40 years :)

jonny_eh 4y ago
I'm 39 and have found naps transformative!
civilized 4y ago
I've never been able to nap and it doesn't seem to be changing as I approach 40. If I'm desperately exhausted or stressed from sleep deprivation, I can sometimes lie down and rest and then get up feeling sort of refreshed. That's usually the closest I get.
- Auracle 4y ago
  It’s amazing how much better you feel even from just lying down for a while. I wonder how much is from the physical act and how much is from the mental. If it’s the former one of those crazy computer setups where you can recline significantly could help. For what it’s worth, the opposite also works for me. I have a standing desk and walking treadmill and I find walking helps keep me alert.
  - civilized 4y ago
    Pretty much my exact experience except I don't have the walking treadmill yet. Wish I could recover more from lying down but it helps. Going outside for a walk is more often my go-to.
  - QuercusMax 4y ago
    For me one key to be able to rest / nap is to make sure I have my phone on silent and away from me, then set a 20 or 30 minute timer to ensure I don't rest too long. Knowing that anything that you need to respond to will only have to wait 20 or 30 minutes helps me detach and relax. Lying down for 20 minutes, 15 of which is sleep, is extremely restorative, and I can do it several times during the day if I'm really struggling.

wrycoder 4y ago

> In other words, if the sleep extension was maintained for a period of 3 years, it would result in approximately 12kg of weight loss. LOL. That’s not how this stuff works, as any dieter can tell you.

l33t2328 4y ago
A “dieter” mindset rarely leads to sustained weight loss because they rarely last 3 years. Too many people go on a diet when they should really be changing their diet.
- wrycoder 4y ago
  Even that doesn't work all that well - the metabolism adjusts. (I'm experienced with long-term low-glycemic diets. It's better to go off the diet once in a while to "fool" the body.)

ufmace 4y ago

I've become extremely skeptical of this type of study. IMO, sleep needs and patterns vary so much between individuals that it's basically impossible for highly generic advice like this to be meaningful.

cbozeman 4y ago
This is just patently untrue. Matthew Walker has been on a half dozen podcasts addressing this and almost all the data available in sleep research seems to suggest a lot of the same shit. Get 8 hours of sleep. No you can't function on 6. You just think you can. Have a sleep study done to see if you have sleep apnea, need a CPAP / BPAP. Don't drink alcohol and caffeine before bedtime. Don't look at screens about 2-3 hours before bedtime. This applies to over 99% of all the individuals they tested.
- anotherman554 4y ago
  There is no expert consensus saying people should get 8 hours of sleep. And also no evidence that humans naturally get 8 hours of sleep.
- ufmace 4y ago
  Yeah no I don't buy that at all. This is so completely at odds with my experience and that of every single person I have ever met that I won't accept that this one dude supposedly knows better.
  - cbozeman 4y ago
    Yes, the world's leading sleep researcher is wrong. Only on Hacker News... maybe Reddit, could you find this level of confusion.
    - selimthegrim 4y ago
      Walker has been criticized about his graphs in that book before…which you should know if you read Hacker News

m3kw9 4y ago

Less time awake = less time to eat

Auracle 4y ago

Relevant to both parts of this study: I can’t recommend a walking treadmill with an electric standing desk enough. I walk about 4-5 hours a day at ~2 mph. I can eat what I want and maintain my weight (or lose it), I’m more alert during the day and I sleep better at night. The only real issue is that if I have to think particularly hard on a problem I might have to step off of the treadmill/turn it off for a bit. I work from home and most of my work isn’t mentally challenging, so I know I have it better than most. Still, for anyone who thinks it might be doable for them I’d recommend it. It takes a while to get used to, but it happens. Right now I’d love to find a way to incline the treadmill easily to increase the challenge without increasing the speed. Plus, you should see my calves. The bottom half of some pants look like leggings on me.

Qub3d 4y ago
Nice! I personally have been amazed at my own increase in energy and weight loss simply by using a sit/stand desk and getting a fitness tracker. The hourly reminders to move really do show the science is right on when it comes to how effective even a few minutes of movement regularly throughout the day improves your health.
vaishaksuresh 4y ago
Do you mind sharing what treadmill you use?
- minsc_and_boo 4y ago
  Not them, but IME anything that uses slat-belts is best for minimizing impact on your body (which adds up over daily use).
- koonsolo 4y ago
  For me, I have an electric standing desk from IKEA, and a FlowFitness walking pad. Very pleased with that, since I can fold it and roll it out of the way with the wheels, once I want to sit down. https://www.flowfitness.com/treadmills/dtm100i/ https://www.flowfitness.com/treadmills/dtm100i/
- 4y ago

more_corn 4y ago

People sleep less than 6.5 hours a night?

maerF0x0 4y ago

I feel like this has been known forever in the fitness industry / community. They've been saying for so long that 1. Sleeping more means less eating (both because you're asleep, duh, and because ghrelin is reduced) 2. Sleeping more means weight loss is higher % from body fat (not lean mass) 3. Sleep is important for recovery for training and then you can exercise again sooner For me I have a guideline that Sleep > Nutrition > Exercise > <bucket for all the other things, eg supplements> -- such that I will sacrifice the lesser thing if it means I do better with the greater thing. If I have to choose between getting at least 7 hours sleep or exercise, I sleep. (Ideally getting 8-9hrs sleep for my body) If I have to choose between having satiating, low calorie - high nutrition foods in the house, and exercising, I go grocery shopping or get chopping.

amalcon 4y ago
To play devil's advocate here, there are several things that have or had been "known forever in the fitness industry / community", which are just plain false. "No pain, no gain" is probably the most famous.

mediumsmart 4y ago

thank you for the subscribe popup modal telling me I don't have to read the whole thing.

jcadam 4y ago

Probably would. I get 6 hours of sleep on a good day. I also work about 12 hrs a day. I do make sure to squeeze in a half hour of running most days.

H8crilA 4y ago
I hope you're getting a good seven figure salary/payoff for all that effort!
- jcadam 4y ago
  LOL, no. Low six figures. 15+ years as a SWE. We can't all pull FAANG salaries.

sujitjadhav 4y ago

Jor jor se bolke sabko scheme bata de.

KaiserPro 4y ago

> Sleeping longer than 6.5 hours/day can help you lose weight so can dysentery

shadowdev 4y ago

This just in: sleep is important for health.

pedalpete 4y ago

This article completely ignores the known "why". There are multiple factors in sleep that would have an influence on weight. 1) when you are sleep deprived, or don't get enough sleep, you have increased insulin resistence, which is related to increased fat stores [1] 2) reduced sleep causes you to crave sugary and fatty foods as a source [2] The idea from the article that sleep gained over x years would result in a * b reduction in weight is ludicrous. It doesn't work that way. I work in the sleep space as the founder of https://soundmind.co https://soundmind.co we're focused on improving Sleep Performance, the neurological function of sleep. Our DeepWave auditory stimulation is focused on some of the brains mechanisms that are associated with the insulin resistance mentioned above (https://soundmind.co/research https://soundmind.co/research). Happy to answer any questions. [1]https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnut.2018.00077/full#:~:text=Insulin%20resistance%20(IR)%20and%20related,the%20development%20of%20cardiometabolic%20diseases https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnut.2018.00077.... [2]https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/getting-more-sleep-can-reduce-food-cravings/#:~:text=Studies%20show%20that%20even%20a,even%20the%20thought)%20of%20food https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/getting-more-slee....

senectus1 4y ago
> 2) reduced sleep causes you to crave sugary and fatty foods as a source [2] absolutely. I've definitely noticed this. Its a big part of how I'm trying to manage my weight gain, just being aware of this effect.

jnash 4y ago

You loose weight by lowering your insulin enough to start burning fat. Sleeping longer means that your insulin stays lower for longer. So the real reason is the benefit of lowering your insulin. Not sleep itself.