23 ms·

> Take-home technical assignment (~4h) or similar at candidate's choosing If I can get a similarly-paying job at a place that doesn't do this, I'll skip you.

> Take-home technical assignment (~4h) or similar at candidate's choosing If I can get a similarly-paying job at a place that doesn't do this, I'll skip you. Many seniors (actual seniors, not 3-years-of-experience seniors) have a network and can say "hey I'm looking" and instantly have multiple options that won't have them do more than talk to the team and manager for an hour or two. If that.

websap 4y ago
Nice! More gatekeeping in the tech world. "actual seniors" vs "seniors"
Fire-Dragon-DoL 4y ago
I have kids and I can find 4 hours for an assignment. It's painful but for the right company, I'd do it (I did and I'm glad). However, if I don't find the ballpark of the salary on Glassdoor, which is information you DON'T control (this is an hint at showing the salary), I won't even consider your company. What's worse than wasting 4 hours and then seeing an offer that's lower than your current pay?
AndyNemmity 4y ago
Lol, take home technical assignment. Why would I ever? I'd much rather have a comfortable conversation with someone who has worked with me in the past. I'm never, ever doing a 4 hour assignment for you.
- Redsquare 4y ago
  Agree, I will laugh at you asking me to do anything at home before we have a contract
  - madeofpalk 4y ago
    Like... interview?
- corrral 4y ago
  I think "senior" has at least two types. There's the FAANG-alum seniors who are used to and will put up with full-day or even multi-day interviews full of leetcode shit or "gotcha" edge-case quizzes about language features you trained yourself to avoid a decade ago or take-home assignments ("4 hours" sure except the other candidate put in 12 hours and lied about it, so...) for that sweet, sweet crazy-high comp. Unless you're offering these sorts a CTO position, they're not applying to your non-FAANG-tier-comp-and-security-and-presige company. Period. Then there's senior in most of the rest of the industry. We don't do long, annoying interviews. If your process drags on we've already accepted one of our other offers. We don't make FAANG money (mostly) but we also don't put up with horseshit. You want me, or not? If not, 100 other companies do, so bye and have a nice day.
  - jacobyoder 4y ago
    > ("4 hours" sure except the other candidate put in 12 hours and lied about it, so...) Recently went through this. Got an email at 2pm saying "please run through this exercise". Looked at the doc, then decided to hit it. I submitted everything back before 6pm. It was around 2.5 hours, and I took a short break in the middle. I screen-captured my whole session (not sent in) but to have a little souvenir of the exercise. There's really not much way I could have 'cheated' on the time because there was only 4 hrs tops between sending the email and submitted my results. Their estimate was 'we expect this to take 2-3 hours', and they weren't all that wrong. I could see someone less experienced taking more than 2 hours just on one of the bad queries - unless you've seen the pattern(s) before it's hard to recognize and refactor quickly.
  - jen20 4y ago
    > FAANG-alum seniors who are used to and will put up with full-day or even multi-day interviews full of leetcode shit or "gotcha" edge-case quizzes As a current FAANG employee, I didn’t put up with that bullshit from anyone including FAANG companies.
- duped 4y ago
  People say this and I have yet to find a company that doesn't do some kind of technical assessment. But I have seen multiple coworkers with 10-20 years of experience as software engineers with glowing recommendations get fired because they couldn't write software. So I'm a little happier to have some bar for myself and coworkers to clear. > I'm never, ever doing a 4 hour assignment for you. Boo hoo, you need to spend four hours of your life to take home multiples of the median American family's income. It blows my mind how conceited some people in this industry can be, and I'm glad I don't work with them. This is one reason why the take home is a great filter.
  - AndyNemmity 4y ago
    You're not responding in good faith with your "boo hoo" comment. No one is crying here. The point here is there are many, many companies that don't require a 4 hour take home technical assessment, and thus people can decide to do them or not. The post is about this topic, so the responses are about the topic. You think that 4 hour take home technical assessments are a reasonable filter. Awesome, you are a person who can apply for the position op is focused on.
    - bombcar 4y ago
      Exactly the point they're missing - if everyone does it, it's part of the shit sandwich you have to eat. But if you're the only one doing it, there are entire classes of applicants that will pass you by. Hiding that you're going to spring it on people should give you numbers, by the people who ghost you the moment it appears, if you wanted to test for it.
  - cableshaft 4y ago
    If I'm interviewing at multiple companies and they all do that, that's 4 hours per company I want to check out. And let's be honest, most of these I've been asked to do weren't reasonable to do, and do well, and double check, in four hours, despite the claim. Eight hours is more reasonable to do them properly, usually. If I interview at three places, that's three days of unpaid work (or 6+ evenings after I've already worked a full day at my normal job), and if I'm already making "multiples of the median American family's income" elsewhere, then it becomes less attractive to put up with that, especially if other companies aren't asking for it. Like I just can't find the energy to put up with Amazon's 2.5 hour span of unbroken time take-home test, no matter how desperate they make themselves sound or how often they contact me (which is almost every week at this point). When I last considered it, I was already having trouble juggling just finding holes in the day to manage about 30 interviews I ended up doing, across about 8 companies. I had no energy to study for, and then do, that exam on top of it (I did do three 45-60 minute exams, across three evenings, for three other companies, though).
- jitix 4y ago
  But isn't the alternative to take home assignment leetcoding on whiteboards? Last time I was interviewing in the US market was in 2017 and it was literally just these two options. And the assignments tended to be long - like a week long. (tbh there were a few companies that pre-offered and just wanted one general discussion round with the team but they felt shady and desperate, and one was a literal consultancy) Could someone articulate what's the norm now for non-FAANG pure-tech companies? I might go back to the open market next year after grad school since I don't have much of a network in Canada. (I have decent 10y+ experience at startups and a unicorn, in both big data analytics and full stack applications and I'm good at system design, take home assignments and even live coding but really suck at physical white boarding complex algorithms with someone literally watching over me)
  - AndyNemmity 4y ago
    I think where the disconnect is occurring is that leetcoding on whiteboards, and home assignments are not the norm for many of us who are Senior. I have 20y+ experience in startups, unicorn, large companies, big data analytics, full stack applications, and system design. I am not asked to interview with whiteboard coding when someone wants to hire me from a referral. They are glorified meet and greets. This is what having a network of people who have worked with you before, and have seen your productivity does. You don't interview the same way other people do, people want you for you, because they know that it doesn't matter what the technology is, you're going to provide a crazy level of value, and they want that level of value in their situation.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - nsxwolf 4y ago
    I've been duped into take-homes a few times. The one time I wasn't ghosted after submitting, they asked me to come in for an on-site... to do leetcode.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    I’m not exactly a “dev ops” person like the original person is looking for. I am the classical definition of dev ops. A software developer who knows cloud and consults with companies on how to develop “cloud natively”. Before my current job, my last three jobs (2014, 2016, and 2018) were as a bog standard “enterprise” Senior software engineer/team lead/de facto “architect” who was hired to help the company mature. I got my job by talking to the manager, director, CTO based on my network and discussing my past successes and how I would go about helping then with their real world problems. I am 99% sure if and when I leave my current job in the cloud consulting department at BigTech and probably go back to smaller companies I won’t be asked to do a “take home test”. My network is stronger now than it was before I came.
higeorge13 4y ago
Not to mention that usually the required time for take-home assignment is 2-3x the advertised one.
- pclmulqdq 4y ago
  I have not found this to be the case, but I think the usual idea is that if it takes longer than advertised, you should probably stay away from the job.
- mianos 4y ago
  I think this is part of the process to ridicule candidates. Maybe interviewers are cynical after interviewing so many really bad candidates and the only enjoyment they get from the process is the ability to look down on them. I have done a few of these take home assignments, later to be engaged by the firm, then to discover in a firm of 100 people, I only really met one or two who could even do the assignment, let alone do it in under an hour.
lostdog 4y ago
It looks like the take-home replaces a full day of 1-1 interviews. That does seem reasonable (though I personally think it's the wrong trade, and the 1-1 interviews are more informative).
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- lozenge 4y ago
  One - is this made clear to the candidate, two - "presentation to the team" - if the team is four people, that's four chances to be rejected from the position, which is the same as the "multiple 1-1 interviews back to back" gauntlet. Does this presentation also require preparation work?
- rockbruno 4y ago
  OP mentioned its a run-of-the-mill mid-size enterprise software company, which should rule out any necessity on their part to run full day interviews a-la FAANG. A 4h project would then be very overkill unless they're extremely confident about their technical ability
- m3047 4y ago
  It's asymmetric warfare, as the interviewer gets to clone it... like software... and then demands proof of work from the applicant.
jghn 4y ago
Even when I'm not looking I'm always willing to followup on the latter sort of interview opportunities. You never know and they're pain free for everyone involved. The value to both parties having each other vetted by a trusted third party is huge. I'd only do the standard style interview if I was desperate for a job.
TheMerovingian 4y ago
Agreed. If you give out take-home tests, they shouldn't take longer than an hour. Unless, you pay them for the time. A few companies I applied to 6-7 months ago offered this. However, if you're on unemployment benefits, this may count as income.
mr_gibbins 4y ago
Absolutely agree. People with 10+ years, a good network and decent resume pop their head up above the parapet and get instantly mobbed with offers. They're on the market 2 weeks, tops. No-one good is going to do a takehome just so the hiring team can rub their beards and feel superior while they pick over the code. That approach worked a few years ago, in today's recruitment bear market you don't pick the candidates, the candidates will pick you. We are having precisely the same trouble as you by the way - junior-heavy, but experienced folk are extremely thin on the ground, and we go from CV to offer within a week. One chap joined (for a few days) and left because he had started somewhere else at the same time - they won out. We're moving to 1-stage interviews, offer on the same day. Higher risk but we have no choice.
- scruple 4y ago
  > They're on the market 2 weeks, tops. My last search lasted 9 days from when I put out the signal to having interviewed (for 3 companies) and negotiated an offer and submitted my resignation and 2 weeks notice.
  - dominotw 4y ago
    > My last search lasted 9 days i think you did disservice to yourself by optimizing for minimizing downtime between jobs. You should've played the field longer and gone for the highest bidder. I am 100% sure you are not getting paid your worth because no FAANG type company finishes the process in 1 week.
    - robocat 4y ago
      That is condescending: you are jumping to a conclusion and implying that the person you are answering makes stupid rash decisions. Without a lot more context you can’t know how sensible their decision is. Even with that context, why should your opinion be listened to, and who are you anyway to tell someone else how to run their life?
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
in_cahoots 4y ago
Not to mention the amount of time it takes to make a good presentation. For a 1 hour presentation that’s easily 8+ hours of work right there.
matwood 4y ago
Yep, the only way I'll send a blind resume and think about jumping through hoops is if it's a super interesting company I want to work for. Otherwise, I just asked my friends and network and skip all the hiring BS.
- geekbird 4y ago
  I've found some companies are so process bound that they'll go the full set of interview, test, coding rounds even for a personal referral. I have over 20 years of experience, and then they wonder why I start laughing when they start asking the newbie basic questions. It get even more absurd when they start asking about stuff that no one does more than once or twice a year except in very "edge case" type jobs. I'm a sysadmin, not a full time software developer, but I still get the dweebs who want me to do a leetcode b-tree sort with whatever fancy algorithm they read about last weekend in the hot language du jour.
scruple 4y ago
> Many seniors (actual seniors, not 3-years-of-experience seniors) have a network and can say "hey I'm looking" and instantly have multiple options that won't have them do more than talk to the team and manager for an hour or two. If that. Just wanted to back this up a little bit. This is exactly what happened to me on my last job search. I'm currently in between jobs, starting the new gig after the 4th of July holiday. The company that I went with: I had a 30 minute call with an engineering VP and the hiring manager that was followed by an hour long panel with a few members of the team that I'm joining. I also learned after I had accepted the offer that the person who referred me internally spent about 45 minutes chatting with the same engineering VP about me specifically before they reached out. This was for a staff/lead position and I've got over 15 years in the industry. I specifically sought out referrals from former colleagues and friends where the interview process put a lot of emphasis and weight on the internal referral and it worked out really well for me. I really hope that this is a sign of things to come, not just for myself and my future employment but for others, at least at the ("actual") senior level. edit/ Added some more context...
- websap 4y ago
  This will not work at FAANG or similar top tier companies. Hiring like this introduces biases. I'd not like to work at a place like this.
- scarface74 4y ago
  This is me exactly. My prior three jobs were based on my network referring me to a hiring manager (Directors and CTOs), us meeting for lunch and talking about their issues and how I would help them solve them. Then me meeting the rest of the team and them giving me an offer. I would never do a “take home test”. Even my current job at $BigTech - working in the cloud consulting department doing exactly the type of work the original poster is looking for - involved a 5 hour behavioral loop and definitely not a “take home test”. They offered cash and real stock. Not equity that statistically will be worthless.
- dominotw 4y ago
  really hope they cut out this referral stuff. These guys have turned all of silicon valley into incestuous bro-land. This needs to be made illegal.
nindalf 4y ago
> If I can get a similarly-paying job at a place that doesn't do this, I'll skip you. Just wanted to back this up a little bit. This is exactly what happened to me on my last job search. I was interviewing with 5-6 companies. It didn’t make sense for me to spend a whole weekend for a chance at an offer from a single company. Instead I spent that time brushing up on design. In hindsight that was the right call.
AnimalMuppet 4y ago
Yeah. They're looking for seniors, but they're treating them like juniors. Then they're surprised that they can't find any seniors. You want actual seniors? Seniors have options. You have to be a place that seniors want to work, want more than they want to work somewhere else. Take home code assignments don't fit anywhere in that.
anon291 4y ago
The thing with 4hr technical assignments is that you're saying no to anyone with kids, which I'm going to venture applies to more senior people than juniors. I used to do these assignment. Now I simply don't sorry. My schedule is 6:30 AM wake up with youngest daughter, to let wife sleep in (she takes care of her all night) 9:00 AM hand off youngest daughter to wife, who takes both girls the rest of the day. I go to my home office 12:00 PM lunch with family / kids 1:00 PM back to work 5:00 PM off work... Cook dinner / watch kids while wife cooks dinner. Set up table. Eat with family. 6:30 PM Play with kids for an hour 7:30 PM Bathtime + off to bed 9:30 - 10:30 PM Infant child actually goes to sleep 10:30 - 11:00 PM Wife and I chat about our day and spend 30 minutes of time actually being together 11:00 PM sleep until 6:30 the next day Exactly where in that schedule am I supposed to fit a FOUR HOUR coding assignment. That's ridiculous. Unless you're providing child care, this is simply too much. A one hour interview... I can handle. Perhaps you'd get better leads by allowing for a choice. For my last job search. I had several different companies all in the upcoming AI accelerator space. Two of them had assignments. I said no thanks. The others did interviews. I got a good raise (base + stock options)anyway. I don't think I lost anything saying no to the ones with assignments. Alternatively, perhaps pay people to complete the assignments.
- lewispollard 4y ago
  I don't know what exactly OP is assigning to applicants, but in my experience a "four hour" coding assignment can be completed in an hour or two - and they don't have to be consecutive hours, it just means four hours is your limit and you have a few days or a week to complete it in.
  - higeorge13 4y ago
    I had a 4-hour assignment requiring a full weekend (10 medium to difficult queries on an unknown 20 table database and document with business analysis for the query results + additional code to extract from api and save to db with your own schema + additional queries on top of this). I also had an 1-hour where i couldn't build the provided code and had to go through maven repos and older versions of the major test component to make it work after a couple hours and then lost any motivation to write the simple exercise. I also had an honest one once, where the instructions were clear, you will need a full weekend to do it. I liked the job and i completed it, only to be rejected because they didn't like my scala syntax. Sorry, but i won't take home test again and have to gamble whether it's an actual 1h test or a full weekend one, or some random guy will spend 1 minute only to reject me.
the_watcher 4y ago
I just wrapped up a take home project. When I was told about it, I told the HM that I withdraw from processes that include a take home. They told me that they understood, but that this one really did only take an hour or two, and that they’d send it over to me anyway. All they asked was that I take a look, and if I completed it, they’d send me a $150 Amazon gift card. I took a look, and it really did seem straightforward (basically testing what I’d expect a live, 30-45 minute DS interview to cover), so I went ahead and did it. I ended up spending 2.5 hours on it, but only because I got sucked into making very pretty charts. I’m pretty anti-take home, because they’re usually scoped as “it should only take you 4-5 hours, here’s a project that would take an in house DS a week at minimum”, but if they were actually scoped like this one (and even mildly comped), I really wouldn’t mind much.
- skeeter2020 4y ago
  I think I share your interpretation, plus it is possible to scope something small that's (gasp!) interesting. The last one I did was use the company's product to create something and then demo it to the team. In addition to a gift card is was (almost) fun. IMO a (very small) take-home assignment is the least-worst of a lot of generally bad options. A pairing exercise focused on teamwork and communication (vs hardcore coding) is the only other option I even consider these days.
  - roguecoder 4y ago
    I always appreciate when they resemble the work the company expects I'll end up doing, because I do actually enjoy the work I do. If I don't like the take-home, I assume I'll probably hate the job too. Whereas traditional interviews tell me almost nothing about what I'm going to end up doing day to day.
  - throwaway81523 4y ago
    I'm happy with the idea of a pairing exercise. I've felt regretful about every time I've gotten involved with a take-home even when my submission was successful, so maybe that's why I'm reacting badly to it here. You mention scoping, but there really has to be a way to enforce that other candidates don't spend more time on it than you do. Otherwise it is a resource consumption contest.
ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
I'm a "senior" (I was 55 when I started looking), and I didn't have a "network," because I was a manager, and wanted to get back into technical stuff (I'm very good at technical stuff, but I was paid to manage). I had a network of pretty heavy-duty people, but they all knew me as a manager, and I didn't want to put them on the spot for technical stuff, since that wasn't how they knew me. That basically meant that I had to come in the front door to places I was interested in. I was a bit "picky," because I wanted to do stuff that interested me. I didn't really care about making a lot of money, or beanbag chairs, or whatnot. I wanted to do work that engaged me. I'm a very experienced Apple native developer, and I'm good at writing stuff that talks to other stuff (like client/server systems, device control, realtime video, etc.). I'm good at writing APIs and SDKs. Making devices sit up and beg is something I've always enjoyed. So places that did stuff like that, interested me. In my experience, I was treated like absolute crap. After a few rounds of "interviews" (which seemed to be opportunities for relatively young engineers and managers to patronize and condescend me), I just said "bugger this for a lark," and decided that I was retired. I set up a small company, so I could buy toys, and started following my own muse. I found some folks doing non-profit stuff, that couldn't afford people of my caliber, and started working with them, for free. It was the best decision I've ever made. In the last five years, I've probably done more work than I did in two decades previously, I've learned more, every day, than I have, since my twenties. [UPDATED TO ADD] If you want "senior" people, they are likely to come with a rather fetching shade of grey to their well-coiffed pompadours, and I'd suggest that it would be rather self-destructive to treat them badly. There seems to be considerable resentment towards us older folks. I'm not one to judge whether or not it is merited (in my case, it is definitely not), but it may interfere with efforts to recruit more experienced folks.
- websap 4y ago
  Happy for you, but this is an oddly cynical take. Just because you are 55, you don't get special treatment. If you're interviewing for Staff or Senior Staff positions (assuming that's the role, with your years of experience), it would be discrimination if someone else was subjected to a different interview process than yours.
  - 4y ago
jjav 4y ago
This. Four hour assignment? That's a hard No. Unless you're very clearly offering something far above the norm (in either total comp or autonomy or working conditions or a combination thereof), I'm certainly not going to bother with your interview process.
RangerScience 4y ago
I think I might (for non-network referrals) respond with "my hourly rate is $XX". Has anyone done this? Has it worked? PS - I also try to add on a 30m review of /their/ code, but so far it hasn't worked. I still ask!
- pclmulqdq 4y ago
  Replace that with "my hourly rate is $XXX" and you will be good. Developers tend to under-charge for consulting, and this interview is likely to be a very short-term gig so you should charge more than you are worth on a long-term gig. Edit: By the way, one company has actually paid for my time to do a take-home at my consulting rate. Most of them balk.
- Silhouette 4y ago
  Snarky responses in interview processes like quoting an hourly rate might seem attractive but I urge you to avoid them. The best case is probably that it immediately ends the process but you get a moment's satisfaction. However you could easily be seen as unprofessional and that damage to your reputation could come back to bite you later when you're applying for something you really do want. If someone is asking too much just turn them down politely and move on. No need to burn bridges. However asking to see some examples of their real code/documentation is a legitimate request IMHO and something I did in my later interviews when I was working as an employee. I'd usually bring it up at a second interview when we knew both sides were serious and they asked if there was anything I'd like to know more about. Nowhere ever thought it was an unreasonable request in my experience and some took it as a good sign that I was sincerely interested. Probably the majority of places actually did find something I could look at, though some refused and usually cited something like confidentiality or trade secrets. Of course the ones who showed me good code were more likely to get me to work for them than the ones who refused or showed me bad code.
  - adastra22 4y ago
    Unprofessional? You are offering very bad advice. If your work is worth that much, don’t give it out for free to people who don’t recognize it. PS: my rate for 4 hours work is $2500. Companies HAVE taken me up on this rate. In fact I am currently declining work because I haven’t the time. Know your worth!
lbrito 4y ago
>have a network and can say "hey I'm looking" and instantly have multiple options that won't have them do more than talk to the team and manager for an hour or two. Wow. I have 10 years of work experience, the last few being "senior". I have a few friends and many recruiters I could reach out to, but absolutely expecting a full fledged 30-round interview like anyone else. I envy you!
- niuzeta 4y ago
  Likewise. I do envy the GP. Currently looking for work, and this has not been my experience.
- guitarsteve 4y ago
  Same! In case others feel bad reading this, I’m in the same boat. Every place I’ve worked has a multi step interview process and as far as I know referrals don’t get to skip it. Maybe it’s different types of work (consulting?) or companies (earlier stage startups?). I don’t think I’m particularly good or bad at networking but fully expect to have to do coding interviews and/or take homes. Or maybe I really do need to get a stronger network!
- hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
  Don't feel too bad. One counterpoint to this is that most companies I've worked at will require even highly recommended employees to go through the same interview process as everyone else, primarily for fairness and diversity reasons. Getting a recommendation may "put you to the front of the line", and may allow you to skip a basic screening call, but honestly I think most well run organizations won't skip the interview process even if it's a well-known "superstar" - they would instead just change some of the interviews to let that superstar demonstrate their in-depth expertise in their niche.
- foobiekr 4y ago
  It goes away at year 15 or so if you have a good reputation. I resigned my previous role out of sheer boredom and a desire to work on something new and have been flooded with no/fit-only interview offers, not that i'm going to follow up on them.
- 4y ago
Clubber 4y ago
>Many seniors (actual seniors, not 3-years-of-experience seniors) have a network and can say "hey I'm looking" and instantly have multiple options that won't have them do more than talk to the team and manager for an hour or two. If that. I couldn't point to this more. The recruiting circus is so bad and has been for decades, I don't even bother talking to recruiters anymore. If by some chance I actually did, I'd pass on the 4h test unless I was absolutely desperate. I haven't been absolutely desperate since the dot bomb, and a recruiter hosed me over by inviting me for an interview for a job he didn't really have. He might not be fucked, but he's probably fucked. It's not so much his doing (albeit the 4h test is a deal breaker for most seniors), it's just the landscape has been so bad for so long, and seniors already have a network, unless he knows somebody who knows somebody, he's probably SOL. The only thing I can think of is offer and post a salary that is 20%-50% above market and hope for the best. You'll be attracting and filtering out a bunch of bad candidates though. An alternative to that is find the best junior/mid you got, make him team lead and give him some motivational speeches. If you're lucky, they'll rise up to the task. For what it's worth, back in the day when I started, it was typically a 10m phone call, 1 hour in person interview, then yay or nay. If the candidate wasn't working out, they'd let him go.
pclmulqdq 4y ago
My personal policy on these assignments used to be that you get 4 hours free, and you agree to be billed for the rest at my consulting rate. Now I am down to 2 hours. Most of my network has a 1.5 hour test as a formality, and it's not that much longer than a phone interview. Someone I spoke to recently had the audacity to ask for 20 hours of free work in the intro call, and I just shook my head and hung up.
bluedino 4y ago
I'd rather do four hours of a take home exercise on my own time, than block out an entire day to interview with 5-6 people in a row.
SergeAx 4y ago
vsareto 4y ago
>actual seniors, not 3-years-of-experience seniors I like how things are confusing enough to need this distinction, but also we still don't know if you're talking about actual seniors and not principal engineers
- marktangotango 4y ago
  It's a pitiful state of affairs isn't it?
BurningFrog 4y ago
Conversely, to some extent I can't specify, if someone senior does applies to a "regular" job, it might mean their former coworkers don't want to work with them...
roguecoder 4y ago
I've found that for the biggest numbers people expect me to memorize a bunch of bullshit from year three of MIT's CS program, so if anything I think this is better than most. If a company doesn't bother to check how well I'm going to do the job, it makes me worried about what sort of smooth-talking incompetents I'm going to get stuck working with down the line.
__d 4y ago
Second the network thing. I've done two interviews in the last 25 years. Mostly it's a 30 minute call or coffee with the group leader just to make them feel ok about the decision they've already made to hire you. Same when hiring: I'd much rather hire someone who I've seen work before than go through a whole interview process, and still feel like it's a crapshoot at the end when making an offer.
spacemark 4y ago
Seriously. Pretty insulting to assign a senior a 4 hr take home assignment when the hiring manager can just pick up the phone and talk to references, look up authored papers, etc. Ridiculous. Glad the tide is turning in favor of workers.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
mdavis6890 4y ago
This seems weird to me. I hear it all the time, but I don't understand. It's a few hours, even as much as a day of effort - to make a huge jump that might be worth hundreds of thousands of Dollars, or perhaps have other major lifestyle improvements. And "if I can get a similarly..." - sure, but is it not worth a few hours up front to find the best job for you? I would happily to 4 hours of work to get a 1% better job. Of course, if it's STEP 1, and you're faced with many iterations of this, that's a different story. But if I'm somewhat certain that I'm looking at a great offer from a great company at some point, why not spend the 4 hours?
- foobiekr 4y ago
  Most senior (in the traditional sense, not the "7 years experience = senior" sense) people are mostly in jobs where the problem is they are bored, not the compensation.
- HowTheStoryEnds 4y ago
  Because a) it's not 'to make' but 'to possibly make' times APPLICATIONS_RUNNING b) most people on that level will already earn that compensation package. So it tends to narrow down the pool to those for which it is an interesting position, ie. 'Not yet established senior yet'. Which explicitly doesn't seem to be what they want.
brnt 4y ago
Hard pass for me too (and I'm not senior). How about they spend 4 hours looking through your Github instead?
systematical 4y ago
I just skipped a 30 minute take home multiple choice test. After the second question I could tell this wasn't really testing my skills and was just a hoop to jump through. Could've googled the answers but decided if this is their strategy I didn't want to work there. I emailed the recruiter and declined.
f0e4c2f7 4y ago
The upside is, this is literally the answer! Just remove this step and the rest of the hiring process is more or less fine.
foobiekr 4y ago
I would not do homework on principle. Life is too short and the company doesn't know how to hire senior people.
lrvick 4y ago
I often have to ask people that have no code I can look at to do a take-home. I do not have a choice. What I do have a choice in is paying for their time at an above average rate I would pay a contractor, so they know I value their time.
dehrmann 4y ago
I agree, but if the assignment genuinely replaces an on-site and the recruiter and hiring manager make that clear, I'd consider it. If they don't, consider there doesn't seem to have been a technical phone screen, I'd assume it's just a first step, and I'd pass.
yashap 4y ago
Agreed. As a datapoint, I’m fairly senior (staff SWE at 2 companies), and there’s absolutely no way I’d do a 4 hour take home assignment. I work long enough hours already, and when I’m considering a job move, I interview at multiple places. No way am I investing that much in a single “maybe” role, especially not when the job market is so excellent for experienced devs. Also, re: > Benefits and salary are good (though salary isn't posted in the ad) If the salary is legitimately strong, you should post it. In summary, as advice to OP: - Put the salary in the ad - Scrap the take home assignment It’s still hard to hire legit senior devs, but those 2 changes will make it significantly easier.
cycomanic 4y ago
Hardware companies manage to hire people without giving them assignments all the time (lets not even talk about management, HR, counsel ...), what makes software companies so special that they have to do it, except maybe that they can?
- ls15 4y ago
  There was a time window where they could get away with it. This time window seems to come to an end now.
cleansingfire 4y ago
Exactly. Senior devs have choices already. Another nope on the assignment.
jgaa 4y ago
Offering someone you don't know a senior position without some kind of insight into their level of competence is just a lottery. I've screened a number of very senior developers with impressive CV's applying for senior C++ positions. When I look at their code, usually it just sucks. More often than not it's just plain old C code with C++ dressing. For example, using pthreads in stead of C++11 std::thread, and mostly avoiding even the C++ standard library. When I interview people, I usually ask them to write some code, for 4 to 6 hours, to solve whatever problem they find interesting, to show me; a) their level of understanding of the C++ language and libraries, b) how they solve problems (I prefer low complexity) and c) what they find interesting. The interview + the code they show me, give me an idea about their qualifications in this specific area. It's still a lottery to hire someone, but the odds for a winning ticket is a little better ;)
- cycomanic 4y ago
  > Offering someone you don't know a senior position without some kind of insight into their level of competence is just a lottery. So what do you think the rest of the world does? Mechanical, civil, electrical engineering, lawyers, doctors, HR, managers? What makes software so special?
  - azangru 4y ago
    The rest of the world does different things, and software isn't that special. For many jobs, the world outsources candidate quality assessment to trusted academic institutions and certification boards. But the software industry has decided — perhaps rightly — that software engineers do not have to go the traditional route of getting a tertiary education attested to by diplomas and certificates. So rather than comparing with doctors and lawyers, you need to look at what the rest of the world is doing with professions that lack institutional gatekeeping. For example, it's pretty common for translators to do tests before they are offered a job. An agile consultancy described in a podcast how they are hiring scrum masters — and there is a combination of checking the certificates (PSM3's are fast-tracked to a final interview) and tests (seeing how a candidate scrum master can run a scrum event with a team). I am sure there will be lots of similar examples in other areas.
turing_complete 4y ago
How do you structure the interview to make sure they are any good, though?
ricardobayes 4y ago
A place I interviewed at wanted me to code a functional date picker using React - without any design frameworks and with a very specific CSS. I still think they just needed a date picker.
username428 4y ago
I might be okay with a supplementary assignment (depending) but I definitely need an interview. With an assignment I don't learn much about the team and thus whether I really want to work there.
rswail 4y ago
Agreed. They're nonsense. They either test irrelevant capabilities that anyone with Google and Stack Overflow can solve, or they are hoop-jumping for the sake of it. If you can't tell whether someone is just talking the talk or actually has done something during a 30m+ interview process, then you're not asking the right questions.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
ary 4y ago
We solved this problem by paying a healthy hourly rate so that candidates don’t feel taken advantage of if we don’t move forward with them. I should note that this seemed to help offset the concerns of people with families. They definitely don’t see it as a waste of time. It also incentivizes us to be sure we’re serious about the candidate.

websap 4y ago

Nice! More gatekeeping in the tech world. "actual seniors" vs "seniors"

Fire-Dragon-DoL 4y ago

I have kids and I can find 4 hours for an assignment. It's painful but for the right company, I'd do it (I did and I'm glad). However, if I don't find the ballpark of the salary on Glassdoor, which is information you DON'T control (this is an hint at showing the salary), I won't even consider your company. What's worse than wasting 4 hours and then seeing an offer that's lower than your current pay?

AndyNemmity 4y ago

Lol, take home technical assignment. Why would I ever? I'd much rather have a comfortable conversation with someone who has worked with me in the past. I'm never, ever doing a 4 hour assignment for you.

Redsquare 4y ago
Agree, I will laugh at you asking me to do anything at home before we have a contract
- madeofpalk 4y ago
  Like... interview?
corrral 4y ago
I think "senior" has at least two types. There's the FAANG-alum seniors who are used to and will put up with full-day or even multi-day interviews full of leetcode shit or "gotcha" edge-case quizzes about language features you trained yourself to avoid a decade ago or take-home assignments ("4 hours" sure except the other candidate put in 12 hours and lied about it, so...) for that sweet, sweet crazy-high comp. Unless you're offering these sorts a CTO position, they're not applying to your non-FAANG-tier-comp-and-security-and-presige company. Period. Then there's senior in most of the rest of the industry. We don't do long, annoying interviews. If your process drags on we've already accepted one of our other offers. We don't make FAANG money (mostly) but we also don't put up with horseshit. You want me, or not? If not, 100 other companies do, so bye and have a nice day.
- jacobyoder 4y ago
  > ("4 hours" sure except the other candidate put in 12 hours and lied about it, so...) Recently went through this. Got an email at 2pm saying "please run through this exercise". Looked at the doc, then decided to hit it. I submitted everything back before 6pm. It was around 2.5 hours, and I took a short break in the middle. I screen-captured my whole session (not sent in) but to have a little souvenir of the exercise. There's really not much way I could have 'cheated' on the time because there was only 4 hrs tops between sending the email and submitted my results. Their estimate was 'we expect this to take 2-3 hours', and they weren't all that wrong. I could see someone less experienced taking more than 2 hours just on one of the bad queries - unless you've seen the pattern(s) before it's hard to recognize and refactor quickly.
- jen20 4y ago
  > FAANG-alum seniors who are used to and will put up with full-day or even multi-day interviews full of leetcode shit or "gotcha" edge-case quizzes As a current FAANG employee, I didn’t put up with that bullshit from anyone including FAANG companies.
duped 4y ago
People say this and I have yet to find a company that doesn't do some kind of technical assessment. But I have seen multiple coworkers with 10-20 years of experience as software engineers with glowing recommendations get fired because they couldn't write software. So I'm a little happier to have some bar for myself and coworkers to clear. > I'm never, ever doing a 4 hour assignment for you. Boo hoo, you need to spend four hours of your life to take home multiples of the median American family's income. It blows my mind how conceited some people in this industry can be, and I'm glad I don't work with them. This is one reason why the take home is a great filter.
- AndyNemmity 4y ago
  You're not responding in good faith with your "boo hoo" comment. No one is crying here. The point here is there are many, many companies that don't require a 4 hour take home technical assessment, and thus people can decide to do them or not. The post is about this topic, so the responses are about the topic. You think that 4 hour take home technical assessments are a reasonable filter. Awesome, you are a person who can apply for the position op is focused on.
  - bombcar 4y ago
    Exactly the point they're missing - if everyone does it, it's part of the shit sandwich you have to eat. But if you're the only one doing it, there are entire classes of applicants that will pass you by. Hiding that you're going to spring it on people should give you numbers, by the people who ghost you the moment it appears, if you wanted to test for it.
- cableshaft 4y ago
  If I'm interviewing at multiple companies and they all do that, that's 4 hours per company I want to check out. And let's be honest, most of these I've been asked to do weren't reasonable to do, and do well, and double check, in four hours, despite the claim. Eight hours is more reasonable to do them properly, usually. If I interview at three places, that's three days of unpaid work (or 6+ evenings after I've already worked a full day at my normal job), and if I'm already making "multiples of the median American family's income" elsewhere, then it becomes less attractive to put up with that, especially if other companies aren't asking for it. Like I just can't find the energy to put up with Amazon's 2.5 hour span of unbroken time take-home test, no matter how desperate they make themselves sound or how often they contact me (which is almost every week at this point). When I last considered it, I was already having trouble juggling just finding holes in the day to manage about 30 interviews I ended up doing, across about 8 companies. I had no energy to study for, and then do, that exam on top of it (I did do three 45-60 minute exams, across three evenings, for three other companies, though).
jitix 4y ago
But isn't the alternative to take home assignment leetcoding on whiteboards? Last time I was interviewing in the US market was in 2017 and it was literally just these two options. And the assignments tended to be long - like a week long. (tbh there were a few companies that pre-offered and just wanted one general discussion round with the team but they felt shady and desperate, and one was a literal consultancy) Could someone articulate what's the norm now for non-FAANG pure-tech companies? I might go back to the open market next year after grad school since I don't have much of a network in Canada. (I have decent 10y+ experience at startups and a unicorn, in both big data analytics and full stack applications and I'm good at system design, take home assignments and even live coding but really suck at physical white boarding complex algorithms with someone literally watching over me)
- AndyNemmity 4y ago
  I think where the disconnect is occurring is that leetcoding on whiteboards, and home assignments are not the norm for many of us who are Senior. I have 20y+ experience in startups, unicorn, large companies, big data analytics, full stack applications, and system design. I am not asked to interview with whiteboard coding when someone wants to hire me from a referral. They are glorified meet and greets. This is what having a network of people who have worked with you before, and have seen your productivity does. You don't interview the same way other people do, people want you for you, because they know that it doesn't matter what the technology is, you're going to provide a crazy level of value, and they want that level of value in their situation.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- nsxwolf 4y ago
  I've been duped into take-homes a few times. The one time I wasn't ghosted after submitting, they asked me to come in for an on-site... to do leetcode.
- scarface74 4y ago
  I’m not exactly a “dev ops” person like the original person is looking for. I am the classical definition of dev ops. A software developer who knows cloud and consults with companies on how to develop “cloud natively”. Before my current job, my last three jobs (2014, 2016, and 2018) were as a bog standard “enterprise” Senior software engineer/team lead/de facto “architect” who was hired to help the company mature. I got my job by talking to the manager, director, CTO based on my network and discussing my past successes and how I would go about helping then with their real world problems. I am 99% sure if and when I leave my current job in the cloud consulting department at BigTech and probably go back to smaller companies I won’t be asked to do a “take home test”. My network is stronger now than it was before I came.

higeorge13 4y ago

Not to mention that usually the required time for take-home assignment is 2-3x the advertised one.

pclmulqdq 4y ago
I have not found this to be the case, but I think the usual idea is that if it takes longer than advertised, you should probably stay away from the job.
mianos 4y ago
I think this is part of the process to ridicule candidates. Maybe interviewers are cynical after interviewing so many really bad candidates and the only enjoyment they get from the process is the ability to look down on them. I have done a few of these take home assignments, later to be engaged by the firm, then to discover in a firm of 100 people, I only really met one or two who could even do the assignment, let alone do it in under an hour.

lostdog 4y ago

It looks like the take-home replaces a full day of 1-1 interviews. That does seem reasonable (though I personally think it's the wrong trade, and the 1-1 interviews are more informative).

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
lozenge 4y ago
One - is this made clear to the candidate, two - "presentation to the team" - if the team is four people, that's four chances to be rejected from the position, which is the same as the "multiple 1-1 interviews back to back" gauntlet. Does this presentation also require preparation work?
rockbruno 4y ago
OP mentioned its a run-of-the-mill mid-size enterprise software company, which should rule out any necessity on their part to run full day interviews a-la FAANG. A 4h project would then be very overkill unless they're extremely confident about their technical ability
m3047 4y ago
It's asymmetric warfare, as the interviewer gets to clone it... like software... and then demands proof of work from the applicant.

jghn 4y ago

Even when I'm not looking I'm always willing to followup on the latter sort of interview opportunities. You never know and they're pain free for everyone involved. The value to both parties having each other vetted by a trusted third party is huge. I'd only do the standard style interview if I was desperate for a job.

TheMerovingian 4y ago

Agreed. If you give out take-home tests, they shouldn't take longer than an hour. Unless, you pay them for the time. A few companies I applied to 6-7 months ago offered this. However, if you're on unemployment benefits, this may count as income.

mr_gibbins 4y ago

Absolutely agree. People with 10+ years, a good network and decent resume pop their head up above the parapet and get instantly mobbed with offers. They're on the market 2 weeks, tops. No-one good is going to do a takehome just so the hiring team can rub their beards and feel superior while they pick over the code. That approach worked a few years ago, in today's recruitment bear market you don't pick the candidates, the candidates will pick you. We are having precisely the same trouble as you by the way - junior-heavy, but experienced folk are extremely thin on the ground, and we go from CV to offer within a week. One chap joined (for a few days) and left because he had started somewhere else at the same time - they won out. We're moving to 1-stage interviews, offer on the same day. Higher risk but we have no choice.

scruple 4y ago
> They're on the market 2 weeks, tops. My last search lasted 9 days from when I put out the signal to having interviewed (for 3 companies) and negotiated an offer and submitted my resignation and 2 weeks notice.
- dominotw 4y ago
  > My last search lasted 9 days i think you did disservice to yourself by optimizing for minimizing downtime between jobs. You should've played the field longer and gone for the highest bidder. I am 100% sure you are not getting paid your worth because no FAANG type company finishes the process in 1 week.
  - robocat 4y ago
    That is condescending: you are jumping to a conclusion and implying that the person you are answering makes stupid rash decisions. Without a lot more context you can’t know how sensible their decision is. Even with that context, why should your opinion be listened to, and who are you anyway to tell someone else how to run their life?
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]

in_cahoots 4y ago

Not to mention the amount of time it takes to make a good presentation. For a 1 hour presentation that’s easily 8+ hours of work right there.

matwood 4y ago

Yep, the only way I'll send a blind resume and think about jumping through hoops is if it's a super interesting company I want to work for. Otherwise, I just asked my friends and network and skip all the hiring BS.

geekbird 4y ago
I've found some companies are so process bound that they'll go the full set of interview, test, coding rounds even for a personal referral. I have over 20 years of experience, and then they wonder why I start laughing when they start asking the newbie basic questions. It get even more absurd when they start asking about stuff that no one does more than once or twice a year except in very "edge case" type jobs. I'm a sysadmin, not a full time software developer, but I still get the dweebs who want me to do a leetcode b-tree sort with whatever fancy algorithm they read about last weekend in the hot language du jour.

scruple 4y ago

> Many seniors (actual seniors, not 3-years-of-experience seniors) have a network and can say "hey I'm looking" and instantly have multiple options that won't have them do more than talk to the team and manager for an hour or two. If that. Just wanted to back this up a little bit. This is exactly what happened to me on my last job search. I'm currently in between jobs, starting the new gig after the 4th of July holiday. The company that I went with: I had a 30 minute call with an engineering VP and the hiring manager that was followed by an hour long panel with a few members of the team that I'm joining. I also learned after I had accepted the offer that the person who referred me internally spent about 45 minutes chatting with the same engineering VP about me specifically before they reached out. This was for a staff/lead position and I've got over 15 years in the industry. I specifically sought out referrals from former colleagues and friends where the interview process put a lot of emphasis and weight on the internal referral and it worked out really well for me. I really hope that this is a sign of things to come, not just for myself and my future employment but for others, at least at the ("actual") senior level. edit/ Added some more context...

websap 4y ago
This will not work at FAANG or similar top tier companies. Hiring like this introduces biases. I'd not like to work at a place like this.
scarface74 4y ago
This is me exactly. My prior three jobs were based on my network referring me to a hiring manager (Directors and CTOs), us meeting for lunch and talking about their issues and how I would help them solve them. Then me meeting the rest of the team and them giving me an offer. I would never do a “take home test”. Even my current job at $BigTech - working in the cloud consulting department doing exactly the type of work the original poster is looking for - involved a 5 hour behavioral loop and definitely not a “take home test”. They offered cash and real stock. Not equity that statistically will be worthless.
dominotw 4y ago
really hope they cut out this referral stuff. These guys have turned all of silicon valley into incestuous bro-land. This needs to be made illegal.

nindalf 4y ago

> If I can get a similarly-paying job at a place that doesn't do this, I'll skip you. Just wanted to back this up a little bit. This is exactly what happened to me on my last job search. I was interviewing with 5-6 companies. It didn’t make sense for me to spend a whole weekend for a chance at an offer from a single company. Instead I spent that time brushing up on design. In hindsight that was the right call.

AnimalMuppet 4y ago

Yeah. They're looking for seniors, but they're treating them like juniors. Then they're surprised that they can't find any seniors. You want actual seniors? Seniors have options. You have to be a place that seniors want to work, want more than they want to work somewhere else. Take home code assignments don't fit anywhere in that.

anon291 4y ago

The thing with 4hr technical assignments is that you're saying no to anyone with kids, which I'm going to venture applies to more senior people than juniors. I used to do these assignment. Now I simply don't sorry. My schedule is 6:30 AM wake up with youngest daughter, to let wife sleep in (she takes care of her all night) 9:00 AM hand off youngest daughter to wife, who takes both girls the rest of the day. I go to my home office 12:00 PM lunch with family / kids 1:00 PM back to work 5:00 PM off work... Cook dinner / watch kids while wife cooks dinner. Set up table. Eat with family. 6:30 PM Play with kids for an hour 7:30 PM Bathtime + off to bed 9:30 - 10:30 PM Infant child actually goes to sleep 10:30 - 11:00 PM Wife and I chat about our day and spend 30 minutes of time actually being together 11:00 PM sleep until 6:30 the next day Exactly where in that schedule am I supposed to fit a FOUR HOUR coding assignment. That's ridiculous. Unless you're providing child care, this is simply too much. A one hour interview... I can handle. Perhaps you'd get better leads by allowing for a choice. For my last job search. I had several different companies all in the upcoming AI accelerator space. Two of them had assignments. I said no thanks. The others did interviews. I got a good raise (base + stock options)anyway. I don't think I lost anything saying no to the ones with assignments. Alternatively, perhaps pay people to complete the assignments.

lewispollard 4y ago
I don't know what exactly OP is assigning to applicants, but in my experience a "four hour" coding assignment can be completed in an hour or two - and they don't have to be consecutive hours, it just means four hours is your limit and you have a few days or a week to complete it in.
- higeorge13 4y ago
  I had a 4-hour assignment requiring a full weekend (10 medium to difficult queries on an unknown 20 table database and document with business analysis for the query results + additional code to extract from api and save to db with your own schema + additional queries on top of this). I also had an 1-hour where i couldn't build the provided code and had to go through maven repos and older versions of the major test component to make it work after a couple hours and then lost any motivation to write the simple exercise. I also had an honest one once, where the instructions were clear, you will need a full weekend to do it. I liked the job and i completed it, only to be rejected because they didn't like my scala syntax. Sorry, but i won't take home test again and have to gamble whether it's an actual 1h test or a full weekend one, or some random guy will spend 1 minute only to reject me.

the_watcher 4y ago

I just wrapped up a take home project. When I was told about it, I told the HM that I withdraw from processes that include a take home. They told me that they understood, but that this one really did only take an hour or two, and that they’d send it over to me anyway. All they asked was that I take a look, and if I completed it, they’d send me a $150 Amazon gift card. I took a look, and it really did seem straightforward (basically testing what I’d expect a live, 30-45 minute DS interview to cover), so I went ahead and did it. I ended up spending 2.5 hours on it, but only because I got sucked into making very pretty charts. I’m pretty anti-take home, because they’re usually scoped as “it should only take you 4-5 hours, here’s a project that would take an in house DS a week at minimum”, but if they were actually scoped like this one (and even mildly comped), I really wouldn’t mind much.

skeeter2020 4y ago
I think I share your interpretation, plus it is possible to scope something small that's (gasp!) interesting. The last one I did was use the company's product to create something and then demo it to the team. In addition to a gift card is was (almost) fun. IMO a (very small) take-home assignment is the least-worst of a lot of generally bad options. A pairing exercise focused on teamwork and communication (vs hardcore coding) is the only other option I even consider these days.
- roguecoder 4y ago
  I always appreciate when they resemble the work the company expects I'll end up doing, because I do actually enjoy the work I do. If I don't like the take-home, I assume I'll probably hate the job too. Whereas traditional interviews tell me almost nothing about what I'm going to end up doing day to day.
- throwaway81523 4y ago
  I'm happy with the idea of a pairing exercise. I've felt regretful about every time I've gotten involved with a take-home even when my submission was successful, so maybe that's why I'm reacting badly to it here. You mention scoping, but there really has to be a way to enforce that other candidates don't spend more time on it than you do. Otherwise it is a resource consumption contest.

ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago

I'm a "senior" (I was 55 when I started looking), and I didn't have a "network," because I was a manager, and wanted to get back into technical stuff (I'm very good at technical stuff, but I was paid to manage). I had a network of pretty heavy-duty people, but they all knew me as a manager, and I didn't want to put them on the spot for technical stuff, since that wasn't how they knew me. That basically meant that I had to come in the front door to places I was interested in. I was a bit "picky," because I wanted to do stuff that interested me. I didn't really care about making a lot of money, or beanbag chairs, or whatnot. I wanted to do work that engaged me. I'm a very experienced Apple native developer, and I'm good at writing stuff that talks to other stuff (like client/server systems, device control, realtime video, etc.). I'm good at writing APIs and SDKs. Making devices sit up and beg is something I've always enjoyed. So places that did stuff like that, interested me. In my experience, I was treated like absolute crap. After a few rounds of "interviews" (which seemed to be opportunities for relatively young engineers and managers to patronize and condescend me), I just said "bugger this for a lark," and decided that I was retired. I set up a small company, so I could buy toys, and started following my own muse. I found some folks doing non-profit stuff, that couldn't afford people of my caliber, and started working with them, for free. It was the best decision I've ever made. In the last five years, I've probably done more work than I did in two decades previously, I've learned more, every day, than I have, since my twenties. [UPDATED TO ADD] If you want "senior" people, they are likely to come with a rather fetching shade of grey to their well-coiffed pompadours, and I'd suggest that it would be rather self-destructive to treat them badly. There seems to be considerable resentment towards us older folks. I'm not one to judge whether or not it is merited (in my case, it is definitely not), but it may interfere with efforts to recruit more experienced folks.

websap 4y ago
Happy for you, but this is an oddly cynical take. Just because you are 55, you don't get special treatment. If you're interviewing for Staff or Senior Staff positions (assuming that's the role, with your years of experience), it would be discrimination if someone else was subjected to a different interview process than yours.
- 4y ago

jjav 4y ago

This. Four hour assignment? That's a hard No. Unless you're very clearly offering something far above the norm (in either total comp or autonomy or working conditions or a combination thereof), I'm certainly not going to bother with your interview process.

RangerScience 4y ago

I think I might (for non-network referrals) respond with "my hourly rate is $XX". Has anyone done this? Has it worked? PS - I also try to add on a 30m review of /their/ code, but so far it hasn't worked. I still ask!

pclmulqdq 4y ago
Replace that with "my hourly rate is $XXX" and you will be good. Developers tend to under-charge for consulting, and this interview is likely to be a very short-term gig so you should charge more than you are worth on a long-term gig. Edit: By the way, one company has actually paid for my time to do a take-home at my consulting rate. Most of them balk.
Silhouette 4y ago
Snarky responses in interview processes like quoting an hourly rate might seem attractive but I urge you to avoid them. The best case is probably that it immediately ends the process but you get a moment's satisfaction. However you could easily be seen as unprofessional and that damage to your reputation could come back to bite you later when you're applying for something you really do want. If someone is asking too much just turn them down politely and move on. No need to burn bridges. However asking to see some examples of their real code/documentation is a legitimate request IMHO and something I did in my later interviews when I was working as an employee. I'd usually bring it up at a second interview when we knew both sides were serious and they asked if there was anything I'd like to know more about. Nowhere ever thought it was an unreasonable request in my experience and some took it as a good sign that I was sincerely interested. Probably the majority of places actually did find something I could look at, though some refused and usually cited something like confidentiality or trade secrets. Of course the ones who showed me good code were more likely to get me to work for them than the ones who refused or showed me bad code.
- adastra22 4y ago
  Unprofessional? You are offering very bad advice. If your work is worth that much, don’t give it out for free to people who don’t recognize it. PS: my rate for 4 hours work is $2500. Companies HAVE taken me up on this rate. In fact I am currently declining work because I haven’t the time. Know your worth!

lbrito 4y ago

>have a network and can say "hey I'm looking" and instantly have multiple options that won't have them do more than talk to the team and manager for an hour or two. Wow. I have 10 years of work experience, the last few being "senior". I have a few friends and many recruiters I could reach out to, but absolutely expecting a full fledged 30-round interview like anyone else. I envy you!

niuzeta 4y ago
Likewise. I do envy the GP. Currently looking for work, and this has not been my experience.
guitarsteve 4y ago
Same! In case others feel bad reading this, I’m in the same boat. Every place I’ve worked has a multi step interview process and as far as I know referrals don’t get to skip it. Maybe it’s different types of work (consulting?) or companies (earlier stage startups?). I don’t think I’m particularly good or bad at networking but fully expect to have to do coding interviews and/or take homes. Or maybe I really do need to get a stronger network!
hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
Don't feel too bad. One counterpoint to this is that most companies I've worked at will require even highly recommended employees to go through the same interview process as everyone else, primarily for fairness and diversity reasons. Getting a recommendation may "put you to the front of the line", and may allow you to skip a basic screening call, but honestly I think most well run organizations won't skip the interview process even if it's a well-known "superstar" - they would instead just change some of the interviews to let that superstar demonstrate their in-depth expertise in their niche.
foobiekr 4y ago
It goes away at year 15 or so if you have a good reputation. I resigned my previous role out of sheer boredom and a desire to work on something new and have been flooded with no/fit-only interview offers, not that i'm going to follow up on them.
4y ago

Clubber 4y ago

>Many seniors (actual seniors, not 3-years-of-experience seniors) have a network and can say "hey I'm looking" and instantly have multiple options that won't have them do more than talk to the team and manager for an hour or two. If that. I couldn't point to this more. The recruiting circus is so bad and has been for decades, I don't even bother talking to recruiters anymore. If by some chance I actually did, I'd pass on the 4h test unless I was absolutely desperate. I haven't been absolutely desperate since the dot bomb, and a recruiter hosed me over by inviting me for an interview for a job he didn't really have. He might not be fucked, but he's probably fucked. It's not so much his doing (albeit the 4h test is a deal breaker for most seniors), it's just the landscape has been so bad for so long, and seniors already have a network, unless he knows somebody who knows somebody, he's probably SOL. The only thing I can think of is offer and post a salary that is 20%-50% above market and hope for the best. You'll be attracting and filtering out a bunch of bad candidates though. An alternative to that is find the best junior/mid you got, make him team lead and give him some motivational speeches. If you're lucky, they'll rise up to the task. For what it's worth, back in the day when I started, it was typically a 10m phone call, 1 hour in person interview, then yay or nay. If the candidate wasn't working out, they'd let him go.

pclmulqdq 4y ago

My personal policy on these assignments used to be that you get 4 hours free, and you agree to be billed for the rest at my consulting rate. Now I am down to 2 hours. Most of my network has a 1.5 hour test as a formality, and it's not that much longer than a phone interview. Someone I spoke to recently had the audacity to ask for 20 hours of free work in the intro call, and I just shook my head and hung up.

bluedino 4y ago

I'd rather do four hours of a take home exercise on my own time, than block out an entire day to interview with 5-6 people in a row.

SergeAx 4y ago

vsareto 4y ago

>actual seniors, not 3-years-of-experience seniors I like how things are confusing enough to need this distinction, but also we still don't know if you're talking about actual seniors and not principal engineers

marktangotango 4y ago
It's a pitiful state of affairs isn't it?

BurningFrog 4y ago

Conversely, to some extent I can't specify, if someone senior does applies to a "regular" job, it might mean their former coworkers don't want to work with them...

roguecoder 4y ago

I've found that for the biggest numbers people expect me to memorize a bunch of bullshit from year three of MIT's CS program, so if anything I think this is better than most. If a company doesn't bother to check how well I'm going to do the job, it makes me worried about what sort of smooth-talking incompetents I'm going to get stuck working with down the line.

__d 4y ago

Second the network thing. I've done two interviews in the last 25 years. Mostly it's a 30 minute call or coffee with the group leader just to make them feel ok about the decision they've already made to hire you. Same when hiring: I'd much rather hire someone who I've seen work before than go through a whole interview process, and still feel like it's a crapshoot at the end when making an offer.

spacemark 4y ago

Seriously. Pretty insulting to assign a senior a 4 hr take home assignment when the hiring manager can just pick up the phone and talk to references, look up authored papers, etc. Ridiculous. Glad the tide is turning in favor of workers.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

mdavis6890 4y ago

This seems weird to me. I hear it all the time, but I don't understand. It's a few hours, even as much as a day of effort - to make a huge jump that might be worth hundreds of thousands of Dollars, or perhaps have other major lifestyle improvements. And "if I can get a similarly..." - sure, but is it not worth a few hours up front to find the best job for you? I would happily to 4 hours of work to get a 1% better job. Of course, if it's STEP 1, and you're faced with many iterations of this, that's a different story. But if I'm somewhat certain that I'm looking at a great offer from a great company at some point, why not spend the 4 hours?

foobiekr 4y ago
Most senior (in the traditional sense, not the "7 years experience = senior" sense) people are mostly in jobs where the problem is they are bored, not the compensation.
HowTheStoryEnds 4y ago
Because a) it's not 'to make' but 'to possibly make' times APPLICATIONS_RUNNING b) most people on that level will already earn that compensation package. So it tends to narrow down the pool to those for which it is an interesting position, ie. 'Not yet established senior yet'. Which explicitly doesn't seem to be what they want.

brnt 4y ago

Hard pass for me too (and I'm not senior). How about they spend 4 hours looking through your Github instead?

systematical 4y ago

I just skipped a 30 minute take home multiple choice test. After the second question I could tell this wasn't really testing my skills and was just a hoop to jump through. Could've googled the answers but decided if this is their strategy I didn't want to work there. I emailed the recruiter and declined.

f0e4c2f7 4y ago

The upside is, this is literally the answer! Just remove this step and the rest of the hiring process is more or less fine.

foobiekr 4y ago

I would not do homework on principle. Life is too short and the company doesn't know how to hire senior people.

lrvick 4y ago

I often have to ask people that have no code I can look at to do a take-home. I do not have a choice. What I do have a choice in is paying for their time at an above average rate I would pay a contractor, so they know I value their time.

dehrmann 4y ago

I agree, but if the assignment genuinely replaces an on-site and the recruiter and hiring manager make that clear, I'd consider it. If they don't, consider there doesn't seem to have been a technical phone screen, I'd assume it's just a first step, and I'd pass.

yashap 4y ago

Agreed. As a datapoint, I’m fairly senior (staff SWE at 2 companies), and there’s absolutely no way I’d do a 4 hour take home assignment. I work long enough hours already, and when I’m considering a job move, I interview at multiple places. No way am I investing that much in a single “maybe” role, especially not when the job market is so excellent for experienced devs. Also, re: > Benefits and salary are good (though salary isn't posted in the ad) If the salary is legitimately strong, you should post it. In summary, as advice to OP: - Put the salary in the ad - Scrap the take home assignment It’s still hard to hire legit senior devs, but those 2 changes will make it significantly easier.

cycomanic 4y ago

Hardware companies manage to hire people without giving them assignments all the time (lets not even talk about management, HR, counsel ...), what makes software companies so special that they have to do it, except maybe that they can?

ls15 4y ago
There was a time window where they could get away with it. This time window seems to come to an end now.

cleansingfire 4y ago

Exactly. Senior devs have choices already. Another nope on the assignment.

jgaa 4y ago

Offering someone you don't know a senior position without some kind of insight into their level of competence is just a lottery. I've screened a number of very senior developers with impressive CV's applying for senior C++ positions. When I look at their code, usually it just sucks. More often than not it's just plain old C code with C++ dressing. For example, using pthreads in stead of C++11 std::thread, and mostly avoiding even the C++ standard library. When I interview people, I usually ask them to write some code, for 4 to 6 hours, to solve whatever problem they find interesting, to show me; a) their level of understanding of the C++ language and libraries, b) how they solve problems (I prefer low complexity) and c) what they find interesting. The interview + the code they show me, give me an idea about their qualifications in this specific area. It's still a lottery to hire someone, but the odds for a winning ticket is a little better ;)

cycomanic 4y ago
> Offering someone you don't know a senior position without some kind of insight into their level of competence is just a lottery. So what do you think the rest of the world does? Mechanical, civil, electrical engineering, lawyers, doctors, HR, managers? What makes software so special?
- azangru 4y ago
  The rest of the world does different things, and software isn't that special. For many jobs, the world outsources candidate quality assessment to trusted academic institutions and certification boards. But the software industry has decided — perhaps rightly — that software engineers do not have to go the traditional route of getting a tertiary education attested to by diplomas and certificates. So rather than comparing with doctors and lawyers, you need to look at what the rest of the world is doing with professions that lack institutional gatekeeping. For example, it's pretty common for translators to do tests before they are offered a job. An agile consultancy described in a podcast how they are hiring scrum masters — and there is a combination of checking the certificates (PSM3's are fast-tracked to a final interview) and tests (seeing how a candidate scrum master can run a scrum event with a team). I am sure there will be lots of similar examples in other areas.

turing_complete 4y ago

How do you structure the interview to make sure they are any good, though?

ricardobayes 4y ago

A place I interviewed at wanted me to code a functional date picker using React - without any design frameworks and with a very specific CSS. I still think they just needed a date picker.

username428 4y ago

I might be okay with a supplementary assignment (depending) but I definitely need an interview. With an assignment I don't learn much about the team and thus whether I really want to work there.

rswail 4y ago

Agreed. They're nonsense. They either test irrelevant capabilities that anyone with Google and Stack Overflow can solve, or they are hoop-jumping for the sake of it. If you can't tell whether someone is just talking the talk or actually has done something during a 30m+ interview process, then you're not asking the right questions.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

ary 4y ago

We solved this problem by paying a healthy hourly rate so that candidates don’t feel taken advantage of if we don’t move forward with them. I should note that this seemed to help offset the concerns of people with families. They definitely don’t see it as a waste of time. It also incentivizes us to be sure we’re serious about the candidate.