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A mystery of the ketogenic diet: benevolent pseudo-diabetes in mice (2019)
- rpmisms 4y agoI read this as: "Humans and rodents have different metabolisms". It's still very good data and very interesting, but it raises more questions then it answers, and effectively points out that we have no clue how these metabolic pathways actually operate outside of specific circumstances. Edit: I'm in no way condemning this paper, on the contrary, I think it's great. This is good science.
- blakesterz 4y agoI was just curious why all studies done on mice don't have "In Mice" at the end of the title? Maybe this is the answer... "Mice-based studies that omit “mice” from title get 31% more media coverage" https://www.psychnewsdaily.com/mice-based-alzheimers-studies-that-omit-mice-from-title-get-31-more-media-coverage/ https://www.psychnewsdaily.com/mice-based-alzheimers-studies...
- imtringued 4y agoEverytime I see dietary studies conducted with Mice I wonder how people end up so lazy they can't convince other humans to eat their diet.
- AaronFriel 4y agoWas this determined by studying media in mice?
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- nxpnsv 4y agoI think it is perfectly fair to put that in the abstract.
- apalmer 4y agoWell the thing is studies are not really for media or lay people, or even researchers/scientists out of a given field.
- dang 4y agohttps://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20inmice&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
- thomascgalvin 4y agoThis "pseudo-diabetes" appears to be fairly straightforward: 1. Someone stops consuming carbohydrates 2. This causes them to produce significantly less insulin 3. In order to preserve ~~insulin~~ glucose for the brain, other insulin receptors are downregulated 4. Because of this downregulation, the subject is less tolerant of carbohydrates This is "pseudo-diabetes" and not "diabetes" because a person on a ketogenic diet isn't producing insulin, whereas a diabetic can't produce (enough) insulin, or is so desensitized to it that glucose stays in the blood steam.
- jaggs 4y agoI think in 3. you mean preserve 'glucose' for the brain?
- thomascgalvin 4y agoYes, that's correct, sorry.
- rhinoceraptor 4y agoI would expect any organism that uses glucose derived from gluconeogenesis for glycogen instead of the select tissues that absolutely require glucose, would be selected out quite quickly.
- _haoa 4y agoNailed it. This is also the same mechanism of action for almost any addiction. 1) Consume external drug 2) Receptors downregulate (thanks to homeostasis) 3) Need more of said drug or withdrawals kick in (analogous to needing to take external insulin so body can get rid of excess glucose) 4) Rinse & repeat From a United States perspective: What we have is a duopoly of Big Pharma and Big Ag that gets people hooked on sugar and then uses medicine-as-a-service to hook them on insulin forever. There is no money in preventative medicine. There are other countries in the world that have already taken steps to get junk foods and sugary drinks out of the hands of children [0]. What excuses does the United States have? [0] https://www.theguardian.com/food/2020/aug/06/mexico-oaxaca-sugary-drinks-junk-food-ban-children https://www.theguardian.com/food/2020/aug/06/mexico-oaxaca-s...
- thepasswordis 4y agoJust an anecdote: keto diets for control of obesity are so effective it feels like a hack. It’s really interesting to see the diet industry attack this. Calling it a “fad diet” as if eating low carbs is somehow a fad. Other things I’ve seen are essentially “keto diets are for treating epilepsy, not for losing weight!” Etc. Keto diets don’t require you to buy any products or books or take any courses or anything. Just literally read the nutrition facts and eat 20-50 carbs a day. If you are struggling with obesity I highly recommend trying a low carb diet.
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- jazzyjackson 4y agothere's a table somewhere of all the different fad diets and what food they tell you to avoid a third column of "how it works" is the same for all rows: "calorie restriction" I've been doing a half-hearted keto and losing weight because I'm just eating a lot less by skipping pizza and breakfast bagels and honestly just don't have many meals in my cooking repetoire, so it's either protein shake or meat on top of salad.
- Stevvo 4y agoMuch of the benefits of any diet are actually not specific to the diet itself. Just being on a diet, any diet, is better than not for health.
- scarecrowbob 4y agoI've been doing keto and am fairly athletic. I also am doing it because I find it hleps my moods and affect, and I have a stable weight when I am on this diet. I don't think that you have to be calorie-restricted to benefit from a ketogeneic diet. The climber Dave MacLeod has a 4-hour long video that seems (to my untrained eye) to have a number of good sources. He also has a masters degree in nutrition and is a professional athlete. He describes how underfeeding was indeed a problem with his early experiments with this approach to diet, but how it's been quite effective after being careful to eat enough. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9dtfNZahKw&t=46s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9dtfNZahKw&t=46s
- lbarrera94 4y agoWhat I got was "Humans and Mice have different results on Keto". So is keto good or bad for humans?
- AmericanChopper 4y agoProbably the biggest keto advocate/promoter is a guy called Jimmy Moore. Google some photos of him prior to considering whether you want to take his weight loss advice.
- mbrodersen 4y agoJimmy Moore is a joke. Perhaps Google “low carb down under” instead for much healthier looking researchers (and actual doctors) applying keto diets in their practices :)
- AmericanChopper 4y agoI agree that Jimmy Moore is a joke. But he accurately represents a very mainstream interpretation of a keto diet. He’s only as much of a joke at the diet he advocates is.
- lbarrera94 4y agoI went on keto for 3 months and was surprised how great I felt. I understand some might be placebo but beneficial nonetheless. Pro's: - Sustained energy all day (no crashes) - No cravings (didnt feel "hangry") - Sleep schedule improved (REM sleep) Con's: - Frequented the bathroom a lot more - Couldn't lift as heavy in the gym - Scheduling meals was a pain
- AmericanChopper 4y agoKeto is just like IF in the sense that it’s only as beneficial as the caloric deficit you achieve. All of the benefits you mentioned are what you would receive from simply having a normal balanced diet, and you wouldn’t have to have any of the cons. Which include a surprisingly high level of muscle catabolism, and huge cortisol spikes while your body adapts (which people call “keto flu”). The muscle loss is especially bad because in addition to being something most people don’t want, it also lowers your BMR and makes weight management even more difficult. It’s also very hard to hit all your micros on a keto diet, which is one of several reason that it’s especially unhealthy to do for a extended periods. If you’re looking for a crash diet (which isn’t a great idea to begin with), there are easier and healthier ones than keto. There are no scenarios where it would be the best choice, and that’s if you’re doing one of the more sensible versions of the diet, opposed to the even more insane unlimited-fat-calories versions.
- tediousdemise 4y agoTaking this opportunity to raise awareness about metabolic syndrome [0], a condition that is exacerbated by excessive consumption of carbohydrates. Per the CDC, it is estimated that over 30% of the US population has metabolic syndrome [1]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metabolic_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metabolic_syndrome [1] https://www.cdc.gov/pcd/issues/2017/16_0287.htm#:~:text=By%20using%20the%20definition%20of,prevalence%20is%20estimated%20at%20about https://www.cdc.gov/pcd/issues/2017/16_0287.htm#:~:text=By%2...
- BirAdam 4y agoThis was me. Didn’t even look overweight really. My blood told the story despite appearances. Went keto. After a month, all my blood tests came back within normal levels. Additionally, my allergies have been lessened by such a degree I was able to quit taking antihistamines every day, chronic pain in my legs disappeared, my sense of smell increased, my sense of taste increased, mental clarity improved, emotional regulation improved, and I also lost some weight. I find it easier to work out as well, I just have more energy. Everyday, I worry there is some terrible trade off, but signs of pre-diabetes and pre-non-alcoholic-fatty-liver-syndrome were bad enough in my mind that whatever the trade off is likely won’t kill me faster than either of those.
- Melatonic 4y agoI've done Keto and for some periods of time I liked it. But I think what really happens is that most people are not eating Real Food (which is an actual term btw) and when they switch to Keto they cut out a ton of processed crap and wheat/corn derivatives and that is actually what makes them feel better.
- dawnerd 4y agoYou can eat heavily processed keto food too. Dirty Keto still works and not going to lie I do it a lot and still end up feeling better.
- GeekyBear 4y agoI lost a ton of weight and have kept it off for a decade by cutting out sweetened drinks, getting rid of refined carbohydrates, and learning to cook my own food from scratch. I make no effort to count calories or control portions.
- Darkphibre 4y agoLove the anecdote, wish it applied to me!! I constantly drift upwards, even when eating crazy healthy. My "caloric rheostat" is just dialed in a bit high, so I have to accept I need to eat less than I think is correct... so I have to watch my macros religiously. But, that's what healthy living habits are: Finding what works for you!
- hoofhearthed 4y agoI’m a 30 year old male, running a little over my third ‘diaversary’, don’t have any other type 1’s in the family so diagnose was really surprising at first. Have always thought my Ketogenic diet period, which I ran for about 9 months approx 1.5 years before diagnose, could have had something to do with me ‘developing’ type 1. Did discuss this with my doc, she assured me they found the markers in my blood work indicating auto immune disease etc. Still intrigued by these kind of papers that seem to relate the different topics.
- oifjsidjf 4y agoCould you write what your keto diet was like before the diagnosis? Eg meats, oils, what kind of fats..? Also how much did you eat? Do you exercise?
- hoofhearthed 4y agoJust the generic Keto diet. Started of doing SKD, so strict Keto diet, with about less than 50 grams of carbs a day. Mostly meats, cheeses, eggs, green veggies etc. After about 4 months added more carbs till about probably 100 a 150 grams, so maybe more considered low carb. Did mix on some MCT every once in a while. Was olympic lifting during that while period, so twice a week gym routine.
- dhruvarora013 4y agoI've been keto on and off for the last year and I've found it incredibly effective for weight loss. I understand the principles for effective weight loss, and while a lot of dieticians hate on keto, there is one thing that it taught me that no other diet did - read the label on packaged products in the store. Simply because of how strict keto is I began to read the breakdown for every single thing I purchase in the store. This may seem obvious to all but I never did it to the degree I do now. There is sugar in everything and the serving sizes are often completely ridiculous - I saw a protein bar where the serving size was half the bar! Other diets teach you food groups to eat and encourage but don't seem to have this side effect of teaching you just how messed up some packaged foods are.
- joshgroban 4y ago[flagged]
- foxbarrington 4y agoFeel free to correct me with a source, but I don't think there is scientific consensus that keto is the ideal human diet. Why would anyone care that a famous (infamous?) psychologist (as opposed to a medical doctor, nutritionist, etc...) has asserted its benefits? His view might be more relevant than a world-renowned fish tank cleaner, but I don't think he is the authoritative source people need. For the record, I'm a fan and have noticed benefits in my own life.
- ben_w 4y agoAhh… diet advice from a psychologist is like cryptography advice from a game developer: it might be right, but you shouldn't bet your future on it without at least getting a second opinion. Also, "deadliest hormone" is giving me DHMO vibes. Insulin does many things (way more than I realised before writing this comment), you don't want to eliminate it from your body regardless of you diet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulin
- 908B64B197 4y ago> Dr. Jordan Peterson Since when did he get into med school?
- codeulike 4y agoIn Mice https://twitter.com/justsaysinmice https://twitter.com/justsaysinmice
- dang 4y agoTitle inmiced above. Thanks!
- eternityforest 4y agoDo we have any evidence it's benevolent? I thought there were studies showing keto people were a bit more likely to die?
- Seeing_Things 4y ago
- lcuff 4y agoI'm interested what people know about 'net' carbs and ketosis. I'm not all that savvy on this stuff. I'm looking at a package of chia seeds, which says it's got 16 grams of carbs per quarter cup include 14 grams of fiber. On the Web, I see 'net carbs' calculated in this case as total carbs in grams minus fiber in grams: 16 - 14 => 2. Curious if ketosis occurs when you keep these 'net' values below 20. Another way of asking this is: Is the idea of 'net' carbs legitimate, when talking ketosis? Can I eat up to 20 grams of net carbs and have a reasonable expectation of ketosis, even if the 'total' carbs were 10 or 15 times the 'net carbs'?
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