10 ms·
Framework laptop water damage repair attempt using partial schematic [video]
- rkagerer 4y agoTLDR: A colleague of popular electronics repair blogger Louis Rossmann wanted to fix a board that had water damage, but was stimied because the documentation is missing the broken components. Apparently you need to be a qualified repair shop and sign an NDA to get full schematics.
- ourjharkhand 4y ago[flagged]
- lwhsiao 4y agoThis is a really great first-hand demonstration of the value of schematics and board views. Very interesting to see exactly what the repair tech is thinking, and what info they are looking for. It's also very clear how what exists now is still insufficient. Partial schematics are a great start, I'm hoping Framework rises to the challenge!
- JohnTHaller 4y agoFramework already makes full schematics available to repair shops under an NDA.
- hda2 4y agoDo they also make them available to laptop owners under NDA? I don't mind the schematics not being publicly accessible or open, but they should also be available to customers upon entering into NDA. I want true repairability, and not just modularity. Edit: Apparently not: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31576321 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31576321 As it stands, the framework laptop is NOT repairable. I hope they address this problem soon.
- cbsks 4y agoI asked them for schematics after I bought my framework laptop and got the following response: “We hope you are enjoying your Framework laptop! We only provide full schematics and assembly drawings to repair shops who get Framework products in for repair. Let us know if we can help with anything else.”
- netr0ute 4y agoSad, because a couple decades ago, complete schematics were all too common and included with every electric product sold.
- Alupis 4y agoThis isn't a toaster or anything. A few decades ago nearly all but the most complicated devices could have their entire schematic printed in the last few pages of the owner's manual. Today... a typical PC mainboard schematic might be hundreds or thousands of pages dealing with all sorts of complications for RF and stuff. What would 99.999% of people do with such a schematic?
- netr0ute 4y agoIronic, because it's gotten easier than ever to include such big files, either on a USB drive or preloaded onto the SSD.
- userbinator 4y agoToday... a typical PC mainboard schematic might be hundreds or thousands of pages Go find one and take a look. Seriously, they're out there. Google an OEM name followed by "schematic" (quoted, because otherwise anti-repair Google will misdirect you to owner's manuals and other shit) and start reading. I'll challenge you to find one that's over 100 pages, because I personally haven't seen one. They're closer to 50-70.
- colejohnson66 4y agoProject Olympus[0] from OpenCompute is 238 pages for the Intel XSP version. [0]: https://www.opencompute.org/wiki/Server/ProjectOlympus https://www.opencompute.org/wiki/Server/ProjectOlympus
- nrp 4y agoWe make full schematics and board views available to repair shops under a confidentiality agreement: https://knowledgebase.frame.work/en_us/availability-of-schematics-and-boardviews-BJMZ6EAu https://knowledgebase.frame.work/en_us/availability-of-schem... In this case, we didn't see a request for it come in. Publicly with no agreement required, we were able to share a sub-set of the schematic focused on the internal and external connectors: https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/Mainboard/blob/main/Electrical/Mainboard_Interfaces_Schematic.pdf https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/Mainboard/blob/main/Ele... Louis has more context on the latter in an earlier video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cJj8PUY0DU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cJj8PUY0DU
- jareklupinski 4y agoI just reached out for schematics using the link provided (using a very similar email to my username) Fingers crossed :)
- netr0ute 4y ago> under a confidentiality agreement That's not so kosher for repairability.
- mfer 4y agoI suspect this is due to their chip suppliers or something like that
- orhmeh09 4y agoThe simplest explanation is the usual: 100% marketing.
- Rebelgecko 4y agoIf that were the case, wouldn't they release the schematics for the positive marketing?
- nabakin 4y ago
- rkagerer 4y agoFor years, companies profitably sold products with full schematics - even your appliances would come with them. I applaud the work you're doing, but I hope the Framework team will find a way to close the gap on the pieces of public documentation still missing. This shows why it's important, and how there's a difference between open source and "almost open source".
- hh3k0 4y ago> For years, companies profitably sold products with full schematics - even your appliances would come with them. We should really go back to that. I still have the schematic of my Sony CRT lying in some drawer.
- WorldPeas 4y agoI do pvm repair from time to time and those manuals are a lifesaver. Recently spent a weekend away and traced all the traces on the 'g' board with a red pen to find the fault at a single bad 5v mosfet. If they still made crts I'd probably end up throwing the poor thing out or replacing the whole board. I reckon Sony isn't wringing their hands now wishing they'd withheld the manuals and instead sold the oem boards for 25 years after the model launched.
- runnerup 4y agoThat practice died after products were no longer manufactured domestically. At the time, it was relatively easy to go after someone who stole your IP. Now it's much more difficult.
- notsound 4y agoThis is a common argument against right to repair. It is worth noting that this only makes IP infringement a little more difficult. Reverse engineered schematics exist for many products.
- userbinator 4y agoAs a noteworthy point in this discussion, Intel has the schematics for some 8xx series chipsets (Pentium III, early 4 era) reference designs still available on its own site: https://download.intel.com/design/chipsets/designex/29835002.pdf https://download.intel.com/design/chipsets/designex/29835002... https://www.intel.com/content/dam/doc/design-guide/855gm-855gme-chipset-platform-design-guide.pdf https://www.intel.com/content/dam/doc/design-guide/855gm-855... They started becoming far more secretive after that.
- jjcon 4y agoI think people are missing the value proposition of framework here - pcmasterrace builders like PCs because you can access all the components and swap out or upgrade parts that are outdated or broken and you can customize your build. Board level repairs are even more out of reach for most the components in that sector (because at least Framework provides them to repair shops that ask).
- Waterluvian 4y agoI have Ship of Theseus’d my PC for 20 years now, starting when I was 15. Original ATX case but almost every other component has been replaced multiple times. I do love this about PCs.
- tomrod 4y agoI agree. A lot of folks in the comments are expressing that this is antithetical to the right of repair & being fully repairable. As far as I'm concerned, I can swap out my LCD, mainboard, and other components with literally no issue. This was Dell's original value prop, and it took repairability from weeks down to a call to the local Dell repair folks. I hope one day the schematics can be published, but at the moment? I figure let Framework establish themselves as a killer business in the space of laptop configurability/repairability/component swapping before pulling out the pitchforks for not releasing the silicon and metal mining agreements that become for their boards.
- 4y ago
- kayodelycaon 4y agoThe comments on this thread make me sad. You can get 95% of the way there and there still seems to be just as many complaints. I’m not in the target market and from the outside, I’m seeing a community of people that will never be happy with any product that exists and complain loudly about it. It seems like the only way to win is not to play. :( Edit: To be clear, I want Framework to succeed. I’ll probably end up with one at some point.
- jcims 4y agoFeels a lot like my short stint as a Libertarian. Nothing was ever good enough so you get nowhere. There’s some comfort in that I think, because your ideas never really get tested and you have no burden of compromise. It’s possible, even likely that a company that fully embraces the purist perspective on right to repair isn’t viable due to a variety of constraints.
- triactual 4y agoWhat really kills me is that none of the complainers have any experience designing consumer hardware let alone running a business that sells those designs. Owning lots of hardware whose design is beyond your ken is not the same thing as designing hardware and running a profitable hardware business. Everyone will be sad when Framework doesn’t make it and no one will reflect on these BS comments and the unnecessary ill will they sow. Sometimes there is no conspiracy to rip off all ten people off who want to repair their board. Like they’re going to spend any time figuring out how to make an extra $3k. They might just be trying to keep their IP and stay around long enough to make good on the things they did promise: modular hardware.
- xenadu02 4y ago> What really kills me is that none of the complainers have any experience designing consumer hardware let alone running a business that sells those designs This applies to the majority of people commenting about such things here on HN. To them everything is easy, manufacturers are just greedy, idiots, or both.
- KingOfCoders 4y agoI have been on his side for years, also on the NYC rent rants, but one must realize not everyone on "your side" has the same goals as you.
- amelius 4y agoI'm wondering, how often does deionized water fix a water-damaged circuit?
- rasz 4y agoAbout 100% of the time as long as the "damage" you are trying to fix is stain on products case and has nothing to do with electronics. Cleaning is not fixing, you cant clean your way into a reliable repair.
- namlem 4y agoDI water can prevent damage to a product that has gotten wet but not yet short circuited, but once something has shorted out, it's most likely too late.
- amelius 4y agoIn theory, yes, in practice, no. I have short-circuited MCUs at 3.3V many times due to incorrect reflow soldering, and after reheating they still worked fine.
- 64202040067 4y ago
- jacquesm 4y agoI just had a Yamaha P45 from a student at one of the conservatories here handed to me to try to fix. It had been in the rain for a an hour or so and they tried to dry it. The damage is well beyond what it would be worth timewise to fix so I'm very impressed that they even tried this on this laptop, if you value your time I would advise against doing this, if it doesn't come back to life immediately after drying. If you have more time than money then your evaluation may work out differently but at normal hourly rates any device worth a few hundred dollars is probably quickly exceeded in value by the time that you put into such a job, especially if the goal is that the device will function for a long time afterwards. My process for fixing water damage: - blow out excess water using compressed air (low pressure!) - soak the board in isopropyl alchol - ultrasonic cleaning bath - drying - visual inspection for corrosion, fix where required - trial run, and if the board can be brought back to life check all functionality and fix remaining broken / corroded components where required The visual inspection is where you get the information on whether or not the board is salvageable, if there is a large amount of visible corrosion, large numbers of components damaged (esp small SMD components) then the board is usually a write off. Older boards with hole through components fare substantially better when they are damaged by water, I don't recall a single case where the board could not be revived. Based on how I value my own time and the chances of success I reserve working on water damaged devices to vintage music gear and vintage computing gear.
- vbezhenar 4y agoI understand that this is first-world related product. Just want to say that there many countries where talented electrical engineers can’t earn that much money. And laptops are not any cheaper. Repairs are very cost-efficient. Imagine earning $5/hour. Fixing $2000 laptop is worth 50 days of work.
- jacquesm 4y agoYes, that's a very valid point and that's why I left the door open to that possibility. I've seen some videos of people in countries with very low wages whose repair and improvisation skills were off the scale. And when I got into tech in the 70's it was very much like that here too. It's quite frustrating to me that our tech has become so involved that repairs have become harder or even impossible economically causing a lot of perfectly good stuff to end up in landfills.
- post_break 4y agoSounds like we need to get a shop to break the NDA just so other shops and end users can do repairs on the computers they have purchased outright. How else does Louis get board views for other computers? I have a feeling those are in the gray area as well. I'm sure this idea will go over like a lead balloon but for a company that is supposed to be pro right to repair, signing an NDA to get a board view, or if you're a customer telling you to pound sand just doesn't have a great look.