7 ms·

For most bike "racks" here in NL it seems like the primary purpose is not security, but just having somewhere to lean bikes against and give people a sensible p

For most bike "racks" here in NL it seems like the primary purpose is not security, but just having somewhere to lean bikes against and give people a sensible place to park their bikes (as opposed to "in a huge pile") Most people don't bother physically locking their regular city bikes to anything (only using a ring lock on the bike itself), primarily cheap beater bikes but also there's a guy in my street with a €2000 Van Moof e-bike that I think is just leaning against his front wall.

Rechtsstaat 4y ago
Yeah, most bikes in NL are not that expensive and/or old, have only integrated ring locks and are still not be attractive to opportunistic thieves. Still, I'm glad that most places have proper Sheffield stands at most one block away here.
ghostly_s 4y ago
No one locks their bikes in Japan, either. According to Wikipedia this is thanks to "strong policing and general public disregard for stolen items." I can certainly say I've never heard of a US police department doing anything proactive in response to a reported bike theft.
- b4je7d7wb 4y ago
  You also have to to do some paperwork for buying a bike. I assume you have to transfer ownership when selling, so stolen bikes probably cannot really be sold on the open market.
  - woodruffw 4y ago
    Out of sheer ignorance: what are the implications of not having the proper paperwork? Do Japan's street policemen take note of suspicious looking bikes and follow up with their owners?
    - Aeolun 4y ago
      I have been stopped when driving suspiciously at night. I do not know what exactly constitutes suspicious, but the main thing they do is check whether your bike paperwork is in order, and (as a foreigner) that your residence card is valid.
    - laurieg 4y ago
      The police stop bicycles and ask who it's registered to. They can look up the registered owner from the registration sticker. If you stole the bike then you don't know the name of who it's registered to. In general there's no requirement to carry ID (apart from for foreign nationals) so police can't rely on cross checking against the ID people are carrying. Also, bicycles might be registered to a friend or a family member, so knowing the registered name and providing an explanation should be enough. If you have no idea about who the bicycle is registered to then the police will likely make further investigations.
- ekianjo 4y ago
  in japan bikes are stolen once in a while by drunk salarymen who dont want to wamk to go back home. so not 100% safe but fairly safe. also all bikes have a registration number so you eventually find them.
  - trillic 4y ago
    At what size is an island small enough, such that a drunk man riding a bike home is merely seen as borrowing it, and is not a thief?
    - piperswe 4y ago
      I'm not sure what you mean by an "island small enough" - is this metaphor or literal?
- rtpg 4y ago
  People lock their bikes... just using the ring lock in general. If only because you need to put the key in to unlock the ring lock (and ride the bike) and then when you're somewhere if you don't lock it your key is just on the bike. Of course it's a tiny ring lock. It's to stop unmotivated people and also people just taking the wrong bike. But works well enough. Probably not 100% but "no one locks their bike" is incorrect.
- watersb 4y ago
  When I lived in Minneapolis, police encouraged a bike registry; they'd send you this serial number sticker plate that affixed to the frame rather well. No doubt many flaws with that, I don't know if it helped. But I got a sticker. (3M home town... they are good at sticking things together.)
- franciscop 4y ago
  In Japan every bike is officially registered and has a sticker with a number (think of it as a license number that has to be read closely). Foreigners are stopped by the police fairly often in Japan to check their bike licenses according to reports in /r/japanlife.
  - rhizome31 4y ago
    I can confirm this as I experienced it when I was there.
  - archon810 4y ago
    So what prevents a thief from registering their bike by removing the old registration sticker and applying a new one?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
twelvechairs 4y ago
In the UK you absolutely need security - London especially anything not held down will be stolen quickly. Battery powered jigsaws to go through locks and chains, bikes stripped of components, etc. Its a whole different world from the safety of NL Granted some of this is because of a culture of more expensive bikes but still if you used a beater bike it wouldnt be safe either
- OJFord 4y ago
  > London especially Cambridge too, which I think is interesting because it's otherwise often compared to NL et al. for density, relative friendliness, prevalence of attached buggies & wheelbarrows, etc.
  - Terry_Roll 4y ago
- Aeolun 4y ago
  Honestly, that was my initial impression seeing this tweet storm. Living first in the Netherlands and then Japan, it seems like being so fussy about bike stands is wholly unnecessary.
  - presentation 4y ago
    Agreed as a Japan resident but having been a SF resident even crappy bikes would be stolen in seconds for sure. So it depends on the place you live in.
- t-3 4y ago
  - aidenn0 4y ago
    Where I live in the US, bicycle theft is rampant. It's in the sweet spot of "sells easily for a decent chunk of change, but cheap enough that the police won't investigate."
Ichthypresbyter 4y ago
And if you do want to lock your bike to something immovable, the standard seems to be a chain that locks into the ring lock, with a loop on the end- which gives you a lot more flexibility than a D-lock. The other factor, though, is that standard Dutch city bikes are not designed to be easily dismantled. If you have quick release wheels, you want to be able to lock the front wheel as well as the frame (and ideally also the rear wheel).
bayindirh 4y ago
IIRC Van Moof bikes have internal security built-in, so you can't easily stole one of them on a whim. Even if your bike cannot be recovered, Van Moof gives you another one [0]. [1] also tells that the bike locks automatically when you open the kick-stand, and unlocks when you're around. [0]: https://www.vanmoof.com/en-NL/peace-of-mind https://www.vanmoof.com/en-NL/peace-of-mind [1]: https://www.vanmoof.com/en-NL/s5 https://www.vanmoof.com/en-NL/s5
- mrsuprawsm 4y ago
  Still, if I had one of those I wouldn’t leave it just on the street! I thought about buying one but figured it was a bit much money for something I didn’t particularly need and would be fairly vulnerable to getting nicked, even with the security features. And I think the Bike Hunters thing where they retrieve a stolen bike for you is only for up to 3 years now, which is not really great, since you want to own the bike for much longer at that price.
- madeofpalk 4y ago
  Vanmoof owner - it doesn’t automatically lock when you open the kick stand. There’s a ‘pin’ in the back wheel that you can just tap with your shoe to engage the lock. https://youtu.be/BpeRUGgw8JQ https://youtu.be/BpeRUGgw8JQ I disable the Bluetooth proximity unlock - I often lock and leave it when I’m staying nearby (outsiding seating at a pub, for example) and I don’t trust that it’ll stay locked if I’m still within a relatively close distance.
theobeers 4y ago
Those frame/ring locks are no joke. We had to have one cut off of one of our bikes after losing the keys.[0] It took the guy longer than I expected with an angle grinder, made a lot of noise, sparks flying, etc. Swapfiets rental bikes have become popular in Berlin. They have a frame lock with an integrated chain. But even if you don't use the chain, what exactly is the theft scenario? The bikes are rather heavy—which I guess is intentional. Someone highly motivated could lift the bike into a van, drive home, and then worry about cutting off the lock. It just seems a bit far-fetched. [0]: It was an ABUS like this: https://i.imgur.com/ytfVtex.jpeg https://i.imgur.com/ytfVtex.jpeg
- mrsuprawsm 4y ago
  I got my keys stuck in the lock of an old bike and had to angle grind a similar lock off too - massive pain indeed! >Swapfiets rental bikes have become popular in Berlin Same here in NL where they originated, in many cities a good 1/3rd if all the bikes you see (and that’s a lot of bikes) are a Swapfiets. Not too expensive, reliable, and less likely to get stolen than an average bike (good luck selling a Swapfiets inside NL, whereas other stolen bikes are much easier to offload for a few euros to drunk people late at night)
- michaelt 4y ago
  > It took the guy longer than I expected with an angle grinder, made a lot of noise, sparks flying, etc. Your guy was probably being very careful not to damage your bike. With the right tool, even top-quality locks with hardened boron-carbide shackles can be cut in seconds: https://youtu.be/cbYVmRNzGLc?t=368 https://youtu.be/cbYVmRNzGLc?t=368 > Someone highly motivated could lift the bike into a van, drive home, and then worry about cutting off the lock. It just seems a bit far-fetched. One mode of bike theft in the UK is: A white van pulls up to the university/train station cycle racks, men with bolt cutters grab as many as they can in 3 minutes or so, then drive off. As they're going for volume rather than quality, the bikes with the worst locks are the first to go.
ciupicri 4y ago
I was under the impression that bikes are stolen all the time in Netherlands. There was even a joke that if you bike gets stolen, just steal another one.
kstenerud 4y ago
The lower the income disparity, the lower the theft crime. In places with high inequality like London, SF, New York, Rio de Janeiro, Paris etc, even beater bikes will have their locks sawn through.

Rechtsstaat 4y ago

Yeah, most bikes in NL are not that expensive and/or old, have only integrated ring locks and are still not be attractive to opportunistic thieves. Still, I'm glad that most places have proper Sheffield stands at most one block away here.

ghostly_s 4y ago

No one locks their bikes in Japan, either. According to Wikipedia this is thanks to "strong policing and general public disregard for stolen items." I can certainly say I've never heard of a US police department doing anything proactive in response to a reported bike theft.

b4je7d7wb 4y ago
You also have to to do some paperwork for buying a bike. I assume you have to transfer ownership when selling, so stolen bikes probably cannot really be sold on the open market.
- woodruffw 4y ago
  Out of sheer ignorance: what are the implications of not having the proper paperwork? Do Japan's street policemen take note of suspicious looking bikes and follow up with their owners?
  - Aeolun 4y ago
    I have been stopped when driving suspiciously at night. I do not know what exactly constitutes suspicious, but the main thing they do is check whether your bike paperwork is in order, and (as a foreigner) that your residence card is valid.
  - laurieg 4y ago
    The police stop bicycles and ask who it's registered to. They can look up the registered owner from the registration sticker. If you stole the bike then you don't know the name of who it's registered to. In general there's no requirement to carry ID (apart from for foreign nationals) so police can't rely on cross checking against the ID people are carrying. Also, bicycles might be registered to a friend or a family member, so knowing the registered name and providing an explanation should be enough. If you have no idea about who the bicycle is registered to then the police will likely make further investigations.
ekianjo 4y ago
in japan bikes are stolen once in a while by drunk salarymen who dont want to wamk to go back home. so not 100% safe but fairly safe. also all bikes have a registration number so you eventually find them.
- trillic 4y ago
  At what size is an island small enough, such that a drunk man riding a bike home is merely seen as borrowing it, and is not a thief?
  - piperswe 4y ago
    I'm not sure what you mean by an "island small enough" - is this metaphor or literal?
rtpg 4y ago
People lock their bikes... just using the ring lock in general. If only because you need to put the key in to unlock the ring lock (and ride the bike) and then when you're somewhere if you don't lock it your key is just on the bike. Of course it's a tiny ring lock. It's to stop unmotivated people and also people just taking the wrong bike. But works well enough. Probably not 100% but "no one locks their bike" is incorrect.
watersb 4y ago
When I lived in Minneapolis, police encouraged a bike registry; they'd send you this serial number sticker plate that affixed to the frame rather well. No doubt many flaws with that, I don't know if it helped. But I got a sticker. (3M home town... they are good at sticking things together.)
franciscop 4y ago
In Japan every bike is officially registered and has a sticker with a number (think of it as a license number that has to be read closely). Foreigners are stopped by the police fairly often in Japan to check their bike licenses according to reports in /r/japanlife.
- rhizome31 4y ago
  I can confirm this as I experienced it when I was there.
- archon810 4y ago
  So what prevents a thief from registering their bike by removing the old registration sticker and applying a new one?
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

twelvechairs 4y ago

In the UK you absolutely need security - London especially anything not held down will be stolen quickly. Battery powered jigsaws to go through locks and chains, bikes stripped of components, etc. Its a whole different world from the safety of NL Granted some of this is because of a culture of more expensive bikes but still if you used a beater bike it wouldnt be safe either

OJFord 4y ago
> London especially Cambridge too, which I think is interesting because it's otherwise often compared to NL et al. for density, relative friendliness, prevalence of attached buggies & wheelbarrows, etc.
- Terry_Roll 4y ago
Aeolun 4y ago
Honestly, that was my initial impression seeing this tweet storm. Living first in the Netherlands and then Japan, it seems like being so fussy about bike stands is wholly unnecessary.
- presentation 4y ago
  Agreed as a Japan resident but having been a SF resident even crappy bikes would be stolen in seconds for sure. So it depends on the place you live in.
t-3 4y ago
- aidenn0 4y ago
  Where I live in the US, bicycle theft is rampant. It's in the sweet spot of "sells easily for a decent chunk of change, but cheap enough that the police won't investigate."

Ichthypresbyter 4y ago

And if you do want to lock your bike to something immovable, the standard seems to be a chain that locks into the ring lock, with a loop on the end- which gives you a lot more flexibility than a D-lock. The other factor, though, is that standard Dutch city bikes are not designed to be easily dismantled. If you have quick release wheels, you want to be able to lock the front wheel as well as the frame (and ideally also the rear wheel).

bayindirh 4y ago

IIRC Van Moof bikes have internal security built-in, so you can't easily stole one of them on a whim. Even if your bike cannot be recovered, Van Moof gives you another one [0]. [1] also tells that the bike locks automatically when you open the kick-stand, and unlocks when you're around. [0]: https://www.vanmoof.com/en-NL/peace-of-mind https://www.vanmoof.com/en-NL/peace-of-mind [1]: https://www.vanmoof.com/en-NL/s5 https://www.vanmoof.com/en-NL/s5

mrsuprawsm 4y ago
Still, if I had one of those I wouldn’t leave it just on the street! I thought about buying one but figured it was a bit much money for something I didn’t particularly need and would be fairly vulnerable to getting nicked, even with the security features. And I think the Bike Hunters thing where they retrieve a stolen bike for you is only for up to 3 years now, which is not really great, since you want to own the bike for much longer at that price.
madeofpalk 4y ago
Vanmoof owner - it doesn’t automatically lock when you open the kick stand. There’s a ‘pin’ in the back wheel that you can just tap with your shoe to engage the lock. https://youtu.be/BpeRUGgw8JQ https://youtu.be/BpeRUGgw8JQ I disable the Bluetooth proximity unlock - I often lock and leave it when I’m staying nearby (outsiding seating at a pub, for example) and I don’t trust that it’ll stay locked if I’m still within a relatively close distance.

theobeers 4y ago

Those frame/ring locks are no joke. We had to have one cut off of one of our bikes after losing the keys.[0] It took the guy longer than I expected with an angle grinder, made a lot of noise, sparks flying, etc. Swapfiets rental bikes have become popular in Berlin. They have a frame lock with an integrated chain. But even if you don't use the chain, what exactly is the theft scenario? The bikes are rather heavy—which I guess is intentional. Someone highly motivated could lift the bike into a van, drive home, and then worry about cutting off the lock. It just seems a bit far-fetched. [0]: It was an ABUS like this: https://i.imgur.com/ytfVtex.jpeg https://i.imgur.com/ytfVtex.jpeg

mrsuprawsm 4y ago
I got my keys stuck in the lock of an old bike and had to angle grind a similar lock off too - massive pain indeed! >Swapfiets rental bikes have become popular in Berlin Same here in NL where they originated, in many cities a good 1/3rd if all the bikes you see (and that’s a lot of bikes) are a Swapfiets. Not too expensive, reliable, and less likely to get stolen than an average bike (good luck selling a Swapfiets inside NL, whereas other stolen bikes are much easier to offload for a few euros to drunk people late at night)
michaelt 4y ago
> It took the guy longer than I expected with an angle grinder, made a lot of noise, sparks flying, etc. Your guy was probably being very careful not to damage your bike. With the right tool, even top-quality locks with hardened boron-carbide shackles can be cut in seconds: https://youtu.be/cbYVmRNzGLc?t=368 https://youtu.be/cbYVmRNzGLc?t=368 > Someone highly motivated could lift the bike into a van, drive home, and then worry about cutting off the lock. It just seems a bit far-fetched. One mode of bike theft in the UK is: A white van pulls up to the university/train station cycle racks, men with bolt cutters grab as many as they can in 3 minutes or so, then drive off. As they're going for volume rather than quality, the bikes with the worst locks are the first to go.

ciupicri 4y ago

I was under the impression that bikes are stolen all the time in Netherlands. There was even a joke that if you bike gets stolen, just steal another one.

kstenerud 4y ago

The lower the income disparity, the lower the theft crime. In places with high inequality like London, SF, New York, Rio de Janeiro, Paris etc, even beater bikes will have their locks sawn through.