10 ms·

I recently received my first framework laptop after being a loyal Thinkpad user for years. I get excited about different laptops occasionally...and then I reme

I recently received my first framework laptop after being a loyal Thinkpad user for years. I get excited about different laptops occasionally...and then I remember that I won't have a trackpoint if I switch to a different brand, and I get disappointed. Literally happens every few months.

pbhjpbhj 4y ago
Won't fix one child-comment on quality, but is there a TP keyboard that would physically fit the hole in the framework. A physical shim would be easy easier; I'm assuming (possibly wrongly) that they connect via an internal USB connection?
kikoreis 4y ago
I thought it was just me!!!
ElijahLynn 4y ago
Same! And the first thing I did was check the Framework marketplace for a keyboard replacement with a touchstick/trackpoint. I am hoping we can just pop a ThinkPad keyboard in it with a mod. There is a discussion here https://community.frame.work/t/any-chance-of-trackpoint/1026/46 https://community.frame.work/t/any-chance-of-trackpoint/1026....
zumu 4y ago
Short aside: any tips for becoming a trackpoint user? I find it much more comfortable than the trackpad, but my curosr always seems so slow when it's not going way too fast. Is there special software tweaking I need? EDIT: I forgot to mention I'm on Linux
- numpad0 4y ago
  Control Panel > Mouse > ThinkPad > Slow ---[]- Fast slider almost all the way to right sudo sh -c "echo 240 > /sys/devices/platform/i8042/serio1/serio2/sensitivity" This is separate to speed settings for mouse pointer
  - geoka9 4y ago
    On my X1 Carbon 6th, this helped but not much. I put up with a stiff trackpoint for couple years (that's how I depend on one :)), until it hit me! Sticking a folded piece of paper (or similar) into the base of the eraser lifts it up and makes it feel smooth as butter! Problem solved! I would give myself a Nobel prize for discovering this if I could!
    - zumu 4y ago
      I'm also on an X1 Carbon 6th gen! I will try this out. Thanks much.
pauke 4y ago
Business class Dells and HPs have one too. Named differently because TM but good enough.
- cooperadymas 4y ago
  I would challenge you to find a 2022 Dell or HP with a trackpoint.
  - numpad0 4y ago
    Rumor is, some IBM sales rep somewhere at some point in history managed to put pointing stick into a procurement requirement for professional laptops, so to make only ThinkPads to be qualified. Many agencies are not capable of drafting good requirements on their own and such skewed requirements written by the winning contractor to exclude competitors are sadly common. There is always a model or two in every laptop manufacturer's mobile workstation lineups with a pointing stick, for that reason. Not often is in consumer or non-workstation business laptops, and I was never impressed with one, but there always is one.
  - welfare 4y ago
    I just looked down on my laptop and my 2022 HP has a trackpoint, never used this feature though. HP Elitebook 830 G6.
  - guardiangod 4y ago
    https://www.hp.com/us-en/shop/pdp/hp-elitebook-840-g8-notebook-pc-customizable-19x35av-mb https://www.hp.com/us-en/shop/pdp/hp-elitebook-840-g8-notebo... Just got a new one from work. It's literally in front of me right now. Granted the laptop's build quality is questionable (the right hinge's case bulges higher than the left) and the trackpoint has a tendency to get stuck to one direction.
    - vladvasiliu 4y ago
      Oh man, I have an 845 g8 (840 with amd). I hate this laptop with a passion. It could've been such a great tool, but it's a steaming PoS because HP wanted to make a quick buck. I don't have your hinge issue. But, as you open the display, the hinge gets below the laptop's feet. So now it slides around on the table. Which is so stupid, because this laptop doesn't have 4 feet, but 2 large ones, than run the width of the laptop. Which is fantastic if you want to use it on the corner of a table since it won't wobble! Then there's the screen. I swear someone at HP wanted to see how shitty a screen they could get away with in a 2000 euro laptop (which is just a middle of the road config, mind you). On basic models, you have a 6 bit screen. On higher-end ones, they have this security screen thingy that massacres the viewing angles even when it's off. If you move your head around the tiniest bit (say while listening to music) the colors will perceptibly change. The colors are atrocious. And they don't even hide it! The specs say 72% NTSC (not sRGB, which is much wider). Then you have your usual suspects with cheap laptops: the cooler is an absolute joke, the fan developed a horrible noise in a few months. There's coil whine that drives you up a wall when connecting a USB-C monitor + power. On the plus side, the analog headphone out is surprisingly good. I don't hear any background noise, there's no whine when moving the mouse, and the sound is similar to my Retina MBP on relatively high-end headphones. It also works very well on Linux, I'd say it's even better than Windows: I've installed a fresh copy of Windows 11 and I can't get the camera to work. It works perfectly on Linux.
sryie 4y ago
Yep, the trackpoint (and buttons on top of the touchpad) are huge. I am a heavy vim user so those were extremely convenient but I have been trying to get comfortable with tap to click because that seems to be the way laptop manufacturers have headed (and I don't want my efficiency to suddenly collapse when I am put behind any other brand of computer). I am also still holding out some small hope that someone will come up with a way to swap it in to a framework laptop but I'm not holding my breath.
- ElijahLynn 4y ago
  Discussion for trackpoint/touchstick here, in case you or others aren't aware of it yet > https://community.frame.work/t/any-chance-of-trackpoint/1026/46 https://community.frame.work/t/any-chance-of-trackpoint/1026...
pedrocr 4y ago
Yep, same here. And with increasing urgency as Thinkpad quality control seems to have fallen off a cliff. Framework seems uniquely positioned to fix this though. Someone just needs to do a compatible top cover that takes Thinkpad keyboards. I'd take a stupid one without touchpad at all as I just disable it anyway. That shouldn't be too hard, it's mostly getting the plastic right and adapting the connector to the motherboard.
- NonNefarious 4y ago
  And isn't Lenovo perpetrating a bunch of anti-customer, John-Deere-style lockdowns and rip-offs on their hardware?
- csdvrx 4y ago
  > Yep, same here. And with increasing urgency as Thinkpad quality control seems to have fallen off a cliff. Not really, they are among the rare laptops to still offer S3 for Linux. And the X1 Fold is a technical marvel (working on Linux support right now, if I'm successful it may become my next toy device to try to use Linux on as a daily driver) > Framework seems uniquely positioned to fix this though. Someone just needs to do a compatible top cover that takes Thinkpad keyboards. This. I will buy one as soon as they make a thinkpad like keyboard [+] or the possibly to disassemble and mount a genuine Thinkpad keyboard. + : A keyboard qualifies as a "thinkpad keyboard" if has all of the following: - PageUp above Left, PageDown above Right: to me, that's the most important thing ever! - PrintScreen between right Alt and right Ctrl: very important too - Delete above Backspace - A trackpoint between the {G,H,B} keys with 3 buttons below the Spacebar: I'm not a trackpoint fanatic but I appreciate the precision it offers when I need it, and badly felt its absence when I tried a macbook (no, can't do!)
  - Liskni_si 4y ago
    > A keyboard qualifies as a "thinkpad keyboard" if has all of the following: > PageUp above Left, PageDown above Right: to me, that's the most important thing ever! > PrintScreen between right Alt and right Ctrl: very important too That's not a proper ThinkPad keyboard at all. That's the new 6-row fake which has 10 fewer keys than a proper ThinkPad keyboard, which is this one: https://laptopkeys.com/uploads/704_1348778226_Lenovo%20t410s.jpg https://laptopkeys.com/uploads/704_1348778226_Lenovo%20t410s...
spaniard89277 4y ago
We're on the same boat. IDK what to do honestly. Hope someone makes a keyboard with trackpoint for the framework.
- ElijahLynn 4y ago
  Me too! And many others discussing here > https://community.frame.work/t/any-chance-of-trackpoint/1026/46 https://community.frame.work/t/any-chance-of-trackpoint/1026...
tluyben2 4y ago
That's why I have high hopes for (something like) the Frame.work; it should be possible to just get another keyboard 'part' which actually does have a trackpoint (and even no trackpad but other stuff theoretically). Someone, either Frame.work themselves or someone else needs to make it, but at least it's possible. Edit: I would pay for such a keyboard for the Frame.work; it would actually very much stimulate me to buy one! I really hope to see crowdfunding from people who just make a Frame.work part.
- Melatonic 4y ago
  Seriously - or at least a mod kit to get it working with the existing keyboard. Hell there could even maybe be a universal mod kit to add to any laptop keyboard that is removeable and has the space!
ddoolin 4y ago
I genuinely had no idea people still used those, or that they were still made with those.
- NikolaNovak 4y ago
  It's one of those things that once you invest into the learning curve, you're a cultish convert (I certainly am one:)
  - IshKebab 4y ago
    What learning curve? Isn't it just a joystick mouse? I think they were competitive with old touchpads (and probably the ones you still get on cheap laptops) but I expect all the people above praising them have just never used a modern Apple touchpad. Far superior. It's not even close. There's a good reason nobody makes them anymore.
    - NikolaNovak 4y ago
      >>There's a good reason nobody makes them anymore. But they do. Last I checked HP, Dell and Lenovo all had options for power users (not in their consumer / mid-range laptops though). Or at the very least, my last several and current clients have all sent me laptops with a Trackpoint from those three brands (and not to my asking; it's just fairly standard for mobile employees or enterprise customers to have Trackpoint included) >>What learning curve? Isn't it just a joystick mouse? well, no - to me, that's an inherent contradiction: Mouse and trackpad are both positional (as largely is trackball). Joystick, trackpoint are directional. They are fundamentally different paradigms. In terms of learning curve, I do believe Trackpoint is less intuitive for most users, as it does have that different paradigm. I think it takes a bit of time to get really good at it - most people who use it for a few minutes feel it's inferior and clumsy. But I've had "races" with my colleagues with Macbooks, and spoiler - I'll agree it's not even close, but not necessarily in the direction you might expect 0:-) (on aside, I do have a Macbook, it's about 4 years old. How new does a modern it need to be to fit your definition of a modern Apple Trackpad?
    - 4y ago
KerrickStaley 4y ago
The Trackpoint seems redundant to me because I can manipulate the trackpad with my thumb without leaving the home row, and for me it's faster and more comfortable than a Trackpoint. Using your thumb to control the trackpad works better on Mac laptops because the Force Touch trackpad allows you to press anywhere to click. Most PC laptops have a "diving board" click mechanism which means it gets progressively harder to click the further you are from the bottom, and clicking near the top is impossible. Also, Mac laptops position the top of the trackpad closer to the keyboard than other laptops I've seen. You can use tap-to-click as a work-around for being unable to click the top of the trackpad, but I find tap-to-click less usable for other reasons.
- sryie 4y ago
  Is there a way to middle click with this method? I use that often for new tabs and ThinkPads have the physical button at the top and tap to click is just three fingers.
  - innocenat 4y ago
    If it's only for open in new tab, then Ctrl+Left Click work as well when using trackpad.
    - fendy3002 4y ago
      Middle click is very useful to close tab, which the alternative is to move cursor to a much smaller close button. Especially on some apps (iirc pgadmin) where the tabs has no close button, that we need to right click and choose a menu to close a tab.
    - hgomersall 4y ago
      Pasting from the primary buffer is surely the main use case for middle click?
- soperj 4y ago
  how do you scroll with just your thumb? how do you paste into your terminal?
NikolaNovak 4y ago
Same. Everytime I get excited about Framework, Syste7m6, etc... and then get sad. I fully understand I'm a vanishing minority, But trackpoint is such a productivity booster for me, and makes such amazing use of space in a laptop format, that it's a must-have (and again, I fully understand that those who don't use Trackpoint will have no comprehension of what am I going on about; I'm a grouchy quirky old man :). Then there's other little things that may or may not be trackpad related - small function keys, lack of standard home/end/insert/del/pgup/pgdown cluster, and the collapsed arrows which I don't even understand - you have the room, it's right there, nothing is using it... why is everybody making up and down arrows functionally unusable (I want to blame Apple, but as Obi Wan said - who's the bigger fool, the fool, or the fool that follows :)
- apricot 4y ago
  > collapsed arrows Yes. Who ever thought making up and down arrow keys so small was a good idea? They are high usage keys, and every time I'm on a laptop keyboard like that, I cringe whenever I use the arrow keys. In fact, the keyboard is the first thing I look at when I'm in the market for a laptop. Small arrow keys = pass, I won't even look at the specs or price.
- kwertyoowiyop 4y ago
  It’s almost worth getting a “gamer laptop” just to get full-sized up/down arrow keys.
- csdvrx 4y ago
  > the collapsed arrows which I don't even understand - you have the room, it's right there, nothing is using it... why is everybody making up and down arrows functionally unusable (I want to blame Apple, but as Obi Wan said - who's the bigger fool, the fool, or the fool that follows :) This so much!! I miss PageUp and PageDown there so much I refuse to buy anything but thinkpads right now. The last alternative brand was Dell, which adopted the stupidly huge Left and Right arrows, and that's even seen on customer line Lenovos now :(
  - vladvasiliu 4y ago
riedel 4y ago
I am posting the same thing every time framework pops up on HN. I hope the nudging will do it's work eventually. Meanwhile I am wondering why there aren't many third party mods for the framework around. Would it be feasible to design a trackpoint keyboard (if you figure out how to put it in the profile) ? Does it connect via USB or alike internally?
s0rce 4y ago
I loved the TrackPoint and still miss it occasionally, had one on my T41p from IBM, however, I've been really happy with my Macbook (2011 Air and 2020 M1 Pro) trackpad, its lightyears ahead of any other ones I used on PC laptops and just works seamlessly. My Dell laptop from work the trackpad is garbage.

pbhjpbhj 4y ago

Won't fix one child-comment on quality, but is there a TP keyboard that would physically fit the hole in the framework. A physical shim would be easy easier; I'm assuming (possibly wrongly) that they connect via an internal USB connection?

kikoreis 4y ago

I thought it was just me!!!

ElijahLynn 4y ago

Same! And the first thing I did was check the Framework marketplace for a keyboard replacement with a touchstick/trackpoint. I am hoping we can just pop a ThinkPad keyboard in it with a mod. There is a discussion here https://community.frame.work/t/any-chance-of-trackpoint/1026/46 https://community.frame.work/t/any-chance-of-trackpoint/1026....

zumu 4y ago

Short aside: any tips for becoming a trackpoint user? I find it much more comfortable than the trackpad, but my curosr always seems so slow when it's not going way too fast. Is there special software tweaking I need? EDIT: I forgot to mention I'm on Linux

numpad0 4y ago
Control Panel > Mouse > ThinkPad > Slow ---[]- Fast slider almost all the way to right sudo sh -c "echo 240 > /sys/devices/platform/i8042/serio1/serio2/sensitivity" This is separate to speed settings for mouse pointer
- geoka9 4y ago
  On my X1 Carbon 6th, this helped but not much. I put up with a stiff trackpoint for couple years (that's how I depend on one :)), until it hit me! Sticking a folded piece of paper (or similar) into the base of the eraser lifts it up and makes it feel smooth as butter! Problem solved! I would give myself a Nobel prize for discovering this if I could!
  - zumu 4y ago
    I'm also on an X1 Carbon 6th gen! I will try this out. Thanks much.

pauke 4y ago

Business class Dells and HPs have one too. Named differently because TM but good enough.

cooperadymas 4y ago
I would challenge you to find a 2022 Dell or HP with a trackpoint.
- numpad0 4y ago
  Rumor is, some IBM sales rep somewhere at some point in history managed to put pointing stick into a procurement requirement for professional laptops, so to make only ThinkPads to be qualified. Many agencies are not capable of drafting good requirements on their own and such skewed requirements written by the winning contractor to exclude competitors are sadly common. There is always a model or two in every laptop manufacturer's mobile workstation lineups with a pointing stick, for that reason. Not often is in consumer or non-workstation business laptops, and I was never impressed with one, but there always is one.
- welfare 4y ago
  I just looked down on my laptop and my 2022 HP has a trackpoint, never used this feature though. HP Elitebook 830 G6.
- guardiangod 4y ago
  https://www.hp.com/us-en/shop/pdp/hp-elitebook-840-g8-notebook-pc-customizable-19x35av-mb https://www.hp.com/us-en/shop/pdp/hp-elitebook-840-g8-notebo... Just got a new one from work. It's literally in front of me right now. Granted the laptop's build quality is questionable (the right hinge's case bulges higher than the left) and the trackpoint has a tendency to get stuck to one direction.
  - vladvasiliu 4y ago
    Oh man, I have an 845 g8 (840 with amd). I hate this laptop with a passion. It could've been such a great tool, but it's a steaming PoS because HP wanted to make a quick buck. I don't have your hinge issue. But, as you open the display, the hinge gets below the laptop's feet. So now it slides around on the table. Which is so stupid, because this laptop doesn't have 4 feet, but 2 large ones, than run the width of the laptop. Which is fantastic if you want to use it on the corner of a table since it won't wobble! Then there's the screen. I swear someone at HP wanted to see how shitty a screen they could get away with in a 2000 euro laptop (which is just a middle of the road config, mind you). On basic models, you have a 6 bit screen. On higher-end ones, they have this security screen thingy that massacres the viewing angles even when it's off. If you move your head around the tiniest bit (say while listening to music) the colors will perceptibly change. The colors are atrocious. And they don't even hide it! The specs say 72% NTSC (not sRGB, which is much wider). Then you have your usual suspects with cheap laptops: the cooler is an absolute joke, the fan developed a horrible noise in a few months. There's coil whine that drives you up a wall when connecting a USB-C monitor + power. On the plus side, the analog headphone out is surprisingly good. I don't hear any background noise, there's no whine when moving the mouse, and the sound is similar to my Retina MBP on relatively high-end headphones. It also works very well on Linux, I'd say it's even better than Windows: I've installed a fresh copy of Windows 11 and I can't get the camera to work. It works perfectly on Linux.

sryie 4y ago

Yep, the trackpoint (and buttons on top of the touchpad) are huge. I am a heavy vim user so those were extremely convenient but I have been trying to get comfortable with tap to click because that seems to be the way laptop manufacturers have headed (and I don't want my efficiency to suddenly collapse when I am put behind any other brand of computer). I am also still holding out some small hope that someone will come up with a way to swap it in to a framework laptop but I'm not holding my breath.

ElijahLynn 4y ago
Discussion for trackpoint/touchstick here, in case you or others aren't aware of it yet > https://community.frame.work/t/any-chance-of-trackpoint/1026/46 https://community.frame.work/t/any-chance-of-trackpoint/1026...

pedrocr 4y ago

Yep, same here. And with increasing urgency as Thinkpad quality control seems to have fallen off a cliff. Framework seems uniquely positioned to fix this though. Someone just needs to do a compatible top cover that takes Thinkpad keyboards. I'd take a stupid one without touchpad at all as I just disable it anyway. That shouldn't be too hard, it's mostly getting the plastic right and adapting the connector to the motherboard.

NonNefarious 4y ago
And isn't Lenovo perpetrating a bunch of anti-customer, John-Deere-style lockdowns and rip-offs on their hardware?
csdvrx 4y ago
> Yep, same here. And with increasing urgency as Thinkpad quality control seems to have fallen off a cliff. Not really, they are among the rare laptops to still offer S3 for Linux. And the X1 Fold is a technical marvel (working on Linux support right now, if I'm successful it may become my next toy device to try to use Linux on as a daily driver) > Framework seems uniquely positioned to fix this though. Someone just needs to do a compatible top cover that takes Thinkpad keyboards. This. I will buy one as soon as they make a thinkpad like keyboard [+] or the possibly to disassemble and mount a genuine Thinkpad keyboard. + : A keyboard qualifies as a "thinkpad keyboard" if has all of the following: - PageUp above Left, PageDown above Right: to me, that's the most important thing ever! - PrintScreen between right Alt and right Ctrl: very important too - Delete above Backspace - A trackpoint between the {G,H,B} keys with 3 buttons below the Spacebar: I'm not a trackpoint fanatic but I appreciate the precision it offers when I need it, and badly felt its absence when I tried a macbook (no, can't do!)
- Liskni_si 4y ago
  > A keyboard qualifies as a "thinkpad keyboard" if has all of the following: > PageUp above Left, PageDown above Right: to me, that's the most important thing ever! > PrintScreen between right Alt and right Ctrl: very important too That's not a proper ThinkPad keyboard at all. That's the new 6-row fake which has 10 fewer keys than a proper ThinkPad keyboard, which is this one: https://laptopkeys.com/uploads/704_1348778226_Lenovo%20t410s.jpg https://laptopkeys.com/uploads/704_1348778226_Lenovo%20t410s...

spaniard89277 4y ago

We're on the same boat. IDK what to do honestly. Hope someone makes a keyboard with trackpoint for the framework.

ElijahLynn 4y ago
Me too! And many others discussing here > https://community.frame.work/t/any-chance-of-trackpoint/1026/46 https://community.frame.work/t/any-chance-of-trackpoint/1026...

tluyben2 4y ago

That's why I have high hopes for (something like) the Frame.work; it should be possible to just get another keyboard 'part' which actually does have a trackpoint (and even no trackpad but other stuff theoretically). Someone, either Frame.work themselves or someone else needs to make it, but at least it's possible. Edit: I would pay for such a keyboard for the Frame.work; it would actually very much stimulate me to buy one! I really hope to see crowdfunding from people who just make a Frame.work part.

Melatonic 4y ago
Seriously - or at least a mod kit to get it working with the existing keyboard. Hell there could even maybe be a universal mod kit to add to any laptop keyboard that is removeable and has the space!

ddoolin 4y ago

I genuinely had no idea people still used those, or that they were still made with those.

NikolaNovak 4y ago
It's one of those things that once you invest into the learning curve, you're a cultish convert (I certainly am one:)
- IshKebab 4y ago
  What learning curve? Isn't it just a joystick mouse? I think they were competitive with old touchpads (and probably the ones you still get on cheap laptops) but I expect all the people above praising them have just never used a modern Apple touchpad. Far superior. It's not even close. There's a good reason nobody makes them anymore.
  - NikolaNovak 4y ago
    >>There's a good reason nobody makes them anymore. But they do. Last I checked HP, Dell and Lenovo all had options for power users (not in their consumer / mid-range laptops though). Or at the very least, my last several and current clients have all sent me laptops with a Trackpoint from those three brands (and not to my asking; it's just fairly standard for mobile employees or enterprise customers to have Trackpoint included) >>What learning curve? Isn't it just a joystick mouse? well, no - to me, that's an inherent contradiction: Mouse and trackpad are both positional (as largely is trackball). Joystick, trackpoint are directional. They are fundamentally different paradigms. In terms of learning curve, I do believe Trackpoint is less intuitive for most users, as it does have that different paradigm. I think it takes a bit of time to get really good at it - most people who use it for a few minutes feel it's inferior and clumsy. But I've had "races" with my colleagues with Macbooks, and spoiler - I'll agree it's not even close, but not necessarily in the direction you might expect 0:-) (on aside, I do have a Macbook, it's about 4 years old. How new does a modern it need to be to fit your definition of a modern Apple Trackpad?
  - 4y ago

KerrickStaley 4y ago

The Trackpoint seems redundant to me because I can manipulate the trackpad with my thumb without leaving the home row, and for me it's faster and more comfortable than a Trackpoint. Using your thumb to control the trackpad works better on Mac laptops because the Force Touch trackpad allows you to press anywhere to click. Most PC laptops have a "diving board" click mechanism which means it gets progressively harder to click the further you are from the bottom, and clicking near the top is impossible. Also, Mac laptops position the top of the trackpad closer to the keyboard than other laptops I've seen. You can use tap-to-click as a work-around for being unable to click the top of the trackpad, but I find tap-to-click less usable for other reasons.

sryie 4y ago
Is there a way to middle click with this method? I use that often for new tabs and ThinkPads have the physical button at the top and tap to click is just three fingers.
- innocenat 4y ago
  If it's only for open in new tab, then Ctrl+Left Click work as well when using trackpad.
  - fendy3002 4y ago
    Middle click is very useful to close tab, which the alternative is to move cursor to a much smaller close button. Especially on some apps (iirc pgadmin) where the tabs has no close button, that we need to right click and choose a menu to close a tab.
  - hgomersall 4y ago
    Pasting from the primary buffer is surely the main use case for middle click?
soperj 4y ago
how do you scroll with just your thumb? how do you paste into your terminal?

NikolaNovak 4y ago

Same. Everytime I get excited about Framework, Syste7m6, etc... and then get sad. I fully understand I'm a vanishing minority, But trackpoint is such a productivity booster for me, and makes such amazing use of space in a laptop format, that it's a must-have (and again, I fully understand that those who don't use Trackpoint will have no comprehension of what am I going on about; I'm a grouchy quirky old man :). Then there's other little things that may or may not be trackpad related - small function keys, lack of standard home/end/insert/del/pgup/pgdown cluster, and the collapsed arrows which I don't even understand - you have the room, it's right there, nothing is using it... why is everybody making up and down arrows functionally unusable (I want to blame Apple, but as Obi Wan said - who's the bigger fool, the fool, or the fool that follows :)

apricot 4y ago
> collapsed arrows Yes. Who ever thought making up and down arrow keys so small was a good idea? They are high usage keys, and every time I'm on a laptop keyboard like that, I cringe whenever I use the arrow keys. In fact, the keyboard is the first thing I look at when I'm in the market for a laptop. Small arrow keys = pass, I won't even look at the specs or price.
kwertyoowiyop 4y ago
It’s almost worth getting a “gamer laptop” just to get full-sized up/down arrow keys.
csdvrx 4y ago
> the collapsed arrows which I don't even understand - you have the room, it's right there, nothing is using it... why is everybody making up and down arrows functionally unusable (I want to blame Apple, but as Obi Wan said - who's the bigger fool, the fool, or the fool that follows :) This so much!! I miss PageUp and PageDown there so much I refuse to buy anything but thinkpads right now. The last alternative brand was Dell, which adopted the stupidly huge Left and Right arrows, and that's even seen on customer line Lenovos now :(
- vladvasiliu 4y ago

riedel 4y ago

I am posting the same thing every time framework pops up on HN. I hope the nudging will do it's work eventually. Meanwhile I am wondering why there aren't many third party mods for the framework around. Would it be feasible to design a trackpoint keyboard (if you figure out how to put it in the profile) ? Does it connect via USB or alike internally?

s0rce 4y ago

I loved the TrackPoint and still miss it occasionally, had one on my T41p from IBM, however, I've been really happy with my Macbook (2011 Air and 2020 M1 Pro) trackpad, its lightyears ahead of any other ones I used on PC laptops and just works seamlessly. My Dell laptop from work the trackpad is garbage.