16 ms·

Workers deserve the right to disconnect (2021)

• joeman1000 4y ago
  A large thing that everyone glosses over is that raising children is a job and should be treated as such. Women raising children need to be treated correctly and not be made to essentially work two jobs.
• EddieDante 4y ago
  If workers want the right to disconnect, they need to exercise it without asking permission of management or the government. I sure as hell don't ask permission to turn off my company-issued devices at 5pm and ignore them until 8am the next morning. Nor do I ask permission to ignore work-related comms outside of business hours, because I don't work for free. I already have the right to disconnect. I have always had it, because I am a human being and autonomy is a human right. Remember: power yields nothing without a demand, and direct action gets the goods.
  • gsibble 4y ago
    This is my attitude. Come 5pm, the phone goes into a focus mode ignoring work. I ignore any other desktop communications, frequently closing Slack and Superhuman. Disconnecting from work is the only way to stay sane. No one has yelled at me yet at this job. Previous jobs were awful though. We started work at 10am everyday and the CTO woke me up by calling twice at 7am to break through my do not disturb, just to tell me to push a feature asap. Nothing critical at all. Some bosses absolutely have zero respect for personal time and space.
    • pnutjam 4y ago
      Last place I worked, I was on call once every 4 weeks or so which entailed getting up in the middle of the night at least 3 days and often more then once. They also practiced dog-pile trouble shooting where everyone was expected to hop on "red alerts" and stay on the call until the issue was resolved. I've seen it take 6hrs+, running past 5 o'clock or sometimes starting in the evening and running for hours. During the pandemic, I unplugged around 3pm to grab some new shoes for a kid that had ripped theirs out, because other guys were around and after 5pm I'm on my own. Boss starts texting me, "where are you" and "you should do this stuff after hours"... This really left a sour taste and I've since moved on. We need some sort of ability to demand OT, hour for hour comp time, and after hours compensation. One person can fight back, but we are constantly undercut by management. I would often try to comp time and get hit up because it's a busy week, then later that comp time would evaporate and I'd get alot of flack trying to claw it back. My preference is not to comp my time in the morning, but I'd end up clocking in an hour later afew times a week just to try and get some of my time back.
      • taf2 4y ago
        Did you get a new job and does it have better options for you requiring less time?
        • pnutjam 4y ago
          Yes, more pay and better on call hours. All remote.
      • cameronh90 4y ago
        Compensation or time off in lieu for overtime and callouts is the bare minimum we should expect. That shouldn't even be up for debate, and I'm glad to say, everywhere I've worked (in the UK) respects that. Where I have problems is being expected to be available while "on call" but not being paid for it. In my opinion: if you can't get shit faced, you're working, and should be compensated accordingly with all working time regulations applying as normal.
        • pnutjam 4y ago
          Yeah, we didn't get anything above our regular salary.
        • genewitch 4y ago
          Remember the hurricane that hit Virginia in 2012 or 2013? I wasn't even "on call" - i was just the only person with credentials. I told the DBA and the boss and the CTO that you can't just fix an outage at a cloud provider due to hurricane with telnet and a prayer candle. Then i opened a bottle of whisky, and listened to them try to figure out how much data we lost, until about 5 AM. I don't remember if i was hourly contract or hourly employee at that point, but i did get ~8 hours of pay that evening for doing nothing but not unmuting my voice on the phone call! I don't do Disaster Recovery anymore, no one really listens.
      • zrail 4y ago
        > We need some sort of ability to demand OT, hour for hour comp time, and after hours compensation. The word is "union". You want a union.
    • musicale 4y ago
      > Some bosses absolutely have zero respect for personal time and space. Pecking order is everything. In most organizations, exercising said disrespect for subordinates is a key method for management to demonstrate, enforce, and enjoy their higher social status. Similarly, subordinates must exercise respect and deference to the time, space, and attention of management. This is a key method to help employees demonstrate, acknowledge, and internalize their lower social status. Any threats to the status hierarchy threaten the structure of the organization and are usually dealt with harshly.
      • gsibble 4y ago
        Indeed. I'll never work for a company like that again. And it's another reason managers want people back in offices.
  • zwieback 4y ago
    Same here, when my hours are up I'm done, work will be there for me in the morning. I'm surprised how many of my coworkers say they "feel" like they can't do that. I'm working in an engineering organization with major retention issues so at this point there's no way we will be punished for insisting on work-life balance. I think at least 50% of the problem is on the employee side.
  • cameronh90 4y ago
    Hell, most of the time I don't even reply to things immediately during work hours. Unless it requires absolute immediate attention, don't expect an immediate response. If you want sync comms for collaboration, organize a meeting and I'm all yours for two hours or as long as it takes. Otherwise, I'm putting myself on DND and checking my email and IMs every few hours so I have some space for deep focus.
  • jedberg 4y ago
    This is the standard argument as to why no government regulation is necessary -- "because you can just walk away/change jobs!" You are lucky because you have the privilege of being able to do this. Not everyone does. A lot of people need they job they have to continue, and their boss will fire them for not responding to an email at 9pm. Those are the people that need government protection and regulation, or a union, or both. Because their employer won't do it unless forced to and they don't have to privilege to ignore it like you do.
    • EddieDante 4y ago
      > This is the standard argument as to why no government regulation is necessary -- "because you can just walk away/change jobs!" I didn't say this because I think government regulation or unionization isn't necessary. I said it because I don't believe government regulation will happen in the US in my lifetime. Nor do I expect to see the big 4 consulting firms unionized before Judgment Day. And, yes, I have lost jobs for not picking up the phone at 10pm on a Saturday night. Freedom isn't free. I look for individual solutions to systemic issues because I don't trust the collective to have my back. I understand that collective action is necessary, but let's face it: the left in the US is too busy dicking around with the culture war to show up for the class war. They think that labels describing race, gender, sexuality, etc matter more than whether you're working-class or owning-class. I'm looking out for myself because I've given up on anybody else looking out for me. I advise others to do the same.
      • toomuchtodo 4y ago
        Just because you’ve given up doesn’t mean you should advise others to do the same. Like an airplane, put the oxygen mask on yourself before helping others. You’ve then de-risked individually while supporting improvements for workers collectively.
        • EddieDante 4y ago
          Who says I'm giving up? I'm engaging in industrial action on my own since others in my workplace are unwilling to join me. I'm being the change I want to see in the world by engaging in work-to-rule.
  • deleted 4y ago
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  • yodsanklai 4y ago
    Does it mean you work with focus from 8am to 5pm? And suppose that you're working in a competitive environment and you won't meet the expectation for your job if you don't work a few extra hours? I entirely agree it's your right, but if you're ambitious and working more can help you to achieve certain goals, it's not unreasonable to work more than the bare minimum. As long as it's a personal choice, I think it's fine.
  • 50 4y ago
    "We are taught that corporations have a soul, which is the most terrifying news in the world" (Deleuze, Postscript on the Societies of Control).
• gsibble 4y ago
  They make a case that there's a difference between men and women in how much overtime work is put upon them. In my household with my wife and I both working from home with lots of off-hour communications and demands, I see a clear difference. I'll put my phone into do not disturb or other modes and disconnect from work. I also turn off many/most notifications normally including email. She's entirely unable to detach from work, even refusing to put her phone on do not disturb, for fear of missing some critical Slack/Email/Text/Call/Whatsapp/Telegram/Signal. I'm comfortable in my role that I can turn off and not get yelled at while she isn't. I've noticed this pattern with previous partners as well. So it may be a difference between how willing women and men are to detach and risk missing something vs. employers treating them differently. Honestly, this article draws some conclusions about that without any supporting data.
  • turtledove 4y ago
    Women also pick up a huge amount of work in the form of chores, childcare, emotional labor, and general running of the house. This labor is typically unpaid and expected to be done on up of whatever other work the women do to pay the bills.
    • bennysomething 4y ago
      Sorry this might be true, but certainly never been true for me. I work late, cook dinner, do house work, do garden work, do all the life admin, organise any repairs or do then myself. I am the main bread winner too. Yes my wife spends more time with our daughter but that's only because she works part time. It's feels a bit unfair to be told that because I'm a man I don't do enough.
      • turtledove 4y ago
        I'm sorry, where did anyone tell you that you didn't do enough (because you are a man)? I think you might be reading things that no one is saying. Saying, "this commonly happens" is not the same as saying, "you are doing this."
• turtledove 4y ago
  Tech workers (and workers in general) can and should be forming unions to protect their time, their benefits, their IP, etc. I constantly see developers say they are paid well but treated poorly by their employers (unpaid overtime, oncall rotations, receding benefits). A union fights for what people need, and we absolutely should be unionizing to advocate for all the workers.
  • 0xbadcafebee 4y ago
    Alternative is to start demanding startups form co-ops. Probably heretical on HN as it flies in the face of the whole tech start-up dream, which is for a couple tech bros to get massively rich at exit after overworking and under-rewarding a few employees. But a co-op would fairly represent the interests of all the workers without the adversarial nature of a union. You could represent your own interest and take votes on company direction.
    • EddieDante 4y ago
      > Probably heretical on HN as it flies in the face of the whole tech start-up dream, which is for a couple tech bros to get massively rich at exit after overworking and under-rewarding a few employees I feel like a substantial portion of HN is basically College Republicans who majored in CS.
      • Layke1123 4y ago
        I think it's more likely that it's run by the Venture Capitalists and they help curate and drive the narrative more than not in an attempt to hopefully capture a small portion of people who can actually do software well and believe their stories.
      • l33t2328 4y ago
        Smartish people who wanted the possibility of getting really rich used to go to wall street (as bankers, funds managers, etc), but tech is all the rage these days.
      • deleted 4y ago
• exolymph 4y ago
  In white-collar environments a lot of this shit is self-inflicted. Like if you let Slack send you notifications on your phone and check your email more than once a day when you don't really need to... stop doing that.
  • birdyrooster 4y ago
    So true... also these people are obsessive compulsive, they really can't stop that easily and their management is all too happy to reap the benefits while their health deteriorates slowly.
  • ajmurmann 4y ago
    Don't underestimate the power of peer pressure. If everyone but you is 24/7 responsive on Slack, you are at a disadvantage if you are not. Conversations might take place without you and come out in a way that you disagree with or your opportunities to contribute to important decisions is simply diminished. You might be seen as providing less value than others and be the one missing out on promotions.
    • EddieDante 4y ago
      If I wanted a promotion I'd cut my hair, dry-clean my suit, and update my resume. Best way to get a raise is to get a new job.
    • marginalia_nu 4y ago
      On the flip side, we shouldn't underestimate the competitive edge of actually having life-work balance. Recovering properly when you're off work makes you smarter and more productive when you're at work. Being chronically exhausted, bordering on burn-out is not a recipe for getting shit done.
      • HWR_14 4y ago
        That's true, but it is a recipe for looking like you're getting shit done and claiming credit for the other people's work. Side note, look how much is written about Musks crazy work schedule. Without going down that rabbit hole too far, you can see why he makes that information public.
• thih9 4y ago
  Isn’t the answer as simple as: “turn off work devices and work notifications when you finish work”?
  • VGltZUNvbnN1 4y ago
    Even if you're able to disconnect physically from your work, it can be hard to disconnect mentally especially if you fear repercussion from your superiors.
    • sys_64738 4y ago
      Write all the things on your mind down so you can forget them. If you fear retaliation from your superiors then get another job.
• lefstathiou 4y ago
  The job market is a marketplace. Workers have a right to say no, employers have a right to hire someone else... so ask your employer in plain english what is expected from you and should they deviate from that, go somewhere else. If someone is willing to work under those conditions, that's their prerogative. This nation is at full employment, hiring good people is increasingly difficult, it's hard to make the case workers don't have options. They do and so do you. Salaries are increasing at an incredible rate, seems reasonable to me that expectations are changing along with them. Maybe the compromise is taking a lower salary or changing companies. Compromises have to be made...
  • gffrd 4y ago
    I came here to say this: you are treated how you allow yourself to be treated. If you're working too much, do something about it. You have power. Very, very worst case scenario: you get fired. So what? It's a job. There are literally millions of them. Like OP said: you'd probably get a better job right now any way. Companies are tripping over themselves to acquire talent. If you're allowing yourself to be overworked, that's your choice.
    • greedo 4y ago
      The amount of privilege in this comment is amazing. Not everyone has an in-demand IT career. Some people are new to the work force, some are old and exposed to ageism. Some are non-binary, some are women, some are minorities. Some are poor. Some can't work remote, some need special accommodations due to disability, some can't afford the costs of relocating.
      • gffrd 4y ago
        Is privilege bad? Does anyone get anything without demanding it? To my knowledge, nothing has ever happened without someone saying “enough is enough” and walking out the door. Also, I never said anything about IT.
        • greedo 4y ago
• midislack 4y ago
  It's called taking an hourly position. Many people prefer it. When you're on salary you're owned by the company, period. That's what getting a salary means, you're no longer getting compensated for individual slices of time because all your time is owned. It's only by the good graces of the company which purchased you a year at a time that you get time off. But that too is highly discouraged. Taking all your time off every year shows you might have priorities other than your employer, and by extension your career. Don't they teach people what being on salary even means any more?
• dools 4y ago
  Outside of North America, most professionals wind up using the same mobile number for personal and business use, or they have to carry 2 phones. That’s why my product BenkoPhone is so important! Currently Australia only, coming to a virtual mobile number starved territory near you.
  • deleted 4y ago
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• rr808 4y ago
  I've worked in Europe and USA and the attitudes to days off are very different. People in Europe always take 1 or 2 week vacations and dont stay in touch - no one expects them to. At the end of year they have to use or lose vacation time so natrually everyone takes time off. USA people will go to their lake house but stay on call all the time. Finish the year with unused vacation time - seems just quite common.
  • benhurmarcel 4y ago
    1-2 weeks is low. 3 weeks in summer (all at once) is standard, with a week at Christmas and another 1-2 weeks elsewhere.
  • thraxil 4y ago
    > At the end of year they have to use or lose vacation time so natrually everyone takes time off. It's not just a matter of losing it; in many places, the employer faces legal penalties if employees don't use a minimum amount of leave.
• sys_64738 4y ago
  Don't tell them your phone number then they can't add you to some BS WhatsApp group.
• travisgriggs 4y ago
  For me, the root cause of problems here, is not the “soft”, after work hours—some jobs need that kind of thing—but rather the escalation of expectations without another negotiating opportunity. It’s a lot of work to enter into employment arrangements with a company. For both the employee and employer. What’s problematic is when either side is “surprised” by a change in expected behavior after the fact. It’s frustrating, because you have sunk cost in entering the employment agreement. So middle managers abuse their employees by springing these types of things after the job has gotten going. The employee has the freedom to walk, but not without paying a certain opportunity cost. The job offer should make very clear up front in the listing what these “soft” expectations will be. And if they do, the employee/employer needs the recourse to renegotiate the situation. I’ve seen this go the other way as well. Employee takes job, puts in a few months, and then springs untold issues on the employer. Like the abusive middle manager, if they make it minimal enough to just be annoying, it’s not worth firing them for it, it just becomes a drag on everyone else.
  • spaniard89277 4y ago
    In spain we have mandated clock in and clock out, even remotely. I've had this for years but it seems it solved this problem for other people.
  • jpdaigle 4y ago
    > It’s frustrating, because you have sunk cost in entering the employment agreement It's even more precarious for US immigrants where many types of immigrant visa (H1B, L1, TN) are tied to continuing to hold a specific job. Don't like that job anymore? Get laid off, or reclassified into a different position? Oops, you're in violation of your visa, you have a week to leave the country. There's a huge power imbalance between the class of workers that have US permanent residency or citizenship, and those on work visas.
    • 8n4vidtmkvmk 4y ago
      ya.. I'm in the boat. fortunately my employer is great, but i still feel like a hostage for 3 years and counting until my been card comes in. then I'm a different kind of hostage because the US wants to tax me globally should i decide to leave again?
• jmyeet 4y ago
  This is an especially American problem, at least in the developed world. And what sets the US apart from the rest of the developed world? The almost complete lack of labor organization ie unions. Your shitty life isn't because of [insert wedge issue here]. It's because of your material conditions. Poor white people have way more in common with poor black people than either do with rich people. But so many Americans believe they are simply temporarily embarrassed millionaires [1]. This propaganda is so successful that something like 30% of Americans believe in the Great Replacement [2]. It's pushed on mainstream media [3]. [1]: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/328134-john-steinbeck-once-said-that-socialism-never-took-root-in https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/328134-john-steinbeck-once-... [2]: https://www.npr.org/2022/05/17/1099233034/the-great-replacement-conspiracy-theory-isnt-fringe-anymore-its-mainstream https://www.npr.org/2022/05/17/1099233034/the-great-replacem... [3]: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/tucker-carlson-video-great-replacement-theory-b2080264.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politic...
• imapeopleperson 4y ago
  Siru Murugesan, an engineer at Twitter, admits to working just 4 hours a week. Disconnected enough imo
• jimbob45 4y ago
  IMHO I stay connected because it saves boatloads of time if someone just needs a quick yes/no after hours which can then put us far ahead in productivity compared to if I hadn’t stayed connected. That typically results in less stress and less dense work for the team overall.
• musicale 4y ago
  I like working at home, but I don't like living at work. I would agree that being on call after hours requires compensation. Unfortunately many "full time" jobs do not pay overtime and provide no compensation for on call time. Keynes was right about the increases in productivity and automation, but apparently absurdly naïve in predicting it would result in reduced work hours for the same pay rather than in increased profit and unemployment. "Since our workers have become twice as productive, we've decided to double their pay and cut the work week in half" is not how most company managers think. Yet it would seem to be better for society as a whole if our lives were not consumed by endless drudgery; reducing the standard "required" work hours would seem to be a good idea for human health and happiness.
• AnimalMuppet 4y ago
  I'm a dev. There's a certain amount of "being available" that comes with the job. I accept it... as long as it's rare. At a previous job, we had a yearly trade show that we displayed at. I knew that the month before, I was going to be working more than 40 hours a week. The rest of the year was pretty much straight 40 hour weeks. I accepted that. At my current job, my boss once called me in at 9 PM for an emergency. I was there until 1 AM (and he was there both before me and later than me). That happened once (in 13 years). I accept that. If it's every week, that's a management problem, not a worker problem. I'm not management, and they don't pay me to fix management problems.
• RappingBoomer 4y ago
  >The uncoupling of work from the office – something that long preceded the pandemic, but has been accelerated by it – has meant work could be done at any time and from any location. oh look, yet another piece of propaganda pushing the idea of ending working from home in favor of returning to the office!
• planetsprite 4y ago
  Low level workers should be able to count their work hours the same way celebrity CEOs do. Commuting, work socializing, even thinking about work count as hours worked.
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• Ansil849 4y ago
  The problem with 'disconnecting' is that you run the very real risk of being fired and replaced by someone who disconnects less than you. Don't want to pickup your phone after hours at 11pm on a Friday? OK, that's your choice, but it can come with consequences such as being reprimanded, being passed over for promotions or bonuses, being treated poorly, or outright being fired. Unless your skillset and value-adds are truly unique and both indispensable and irreplaceable (not true for 99.99% of us), disconnecting is not an option for those of us who can't afford to lose a job.
  • robbyking 4y ago
    You're being downvoted, but the reality is for a lot of workers the time that's passed since the pandemic started hasn't felt like working from home, it's felt like living at work, and this is especially true for workers who live in towns that don't have a lot of tech companies. It's hard to stand your ground when there's only one tech company in town, or you're a young engineer who doesn't want their resume to show they left their first job out of college less than a year after they were hired.
  • Retric 4y ago
    Simply being dependable and competent makes you a pain to replace. Don’t underestimate the slack the average worker has before being fired. Changes are you will be let go at some point based on stuff that has nothing to do with your personal competence at which point all that extra effort you put in being a stellar employee was largely pointless. Getting a promotion sounds great, but jumping from company to company is generally the better option at which point you have again lost any befits from picking up the phone at 11pm on a Friday.
    • Ansil849 4y ago
      Being fired is the extreme end result. The immediate results I've faced are the other things I've outlined: not having as high a review score, not receiving a promotion, and just generally being treated poorly/less-friendly by managers. Basically 'disconnecting' leads to a hostile work environment. in my experience.
• mwattsun 4y ago
  As a retired programmer, the main part of my career was last century so if I could communicate this situation with my 20th century self he would be horrified by (among other things): 1) The lack of privacy 2) Being location tracked 3) The expectation that one should be available for work communications 24/7 for no extra pay I'm sure he would say something like "Wow, it's too bad America is no longer a free country. We programmers are building the systems that enslave us. We're building our own cages, without asking if we should. In the future out employers will prioritize themselves over our families, partners, children and mental health. What do your kids have to say about this?" We all dismissed the idea of unions because we were highly paid salaried professionals that employers bent over backwards for, but come to find out, unions are more than about money.
  • Godel_unicode 4y ago
    First, this is what America being a free country means. It means you have the absolute right and freedom to build your own cage if you choose to. Second, although building on that idea, as a tech worker you have choice. You can choose to work somewhere that requires this kind of connectedness and monitoring, or you can choose not to. There are very highly paid engineers with no access to their email except on a laptop and during work hours. Ask around, ask this question during interviews. Freedom means responsibility. If you want to make more choices you are agreeing to live with those choices consequences. We're learning very quickly that a ton of people are not ok with that deal.
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    • thr0wawayf00 4y ago
      > First, this is what America being a free country means. It means you have the absolute right and freedom to build your own cage if you choose to. It also means we have the freedom to demand better treatment from our employers. I've never understood this attitude that we don't have a say in our workplaces and must always resort to leaving if we can't get what we want, even though companies bend over backwards trying to convince us that we do. Clearly communicating to the business what our expectations are is important to getting what we want. We're seeing this play out in real-time during the pandemic.
• tastyfreeze 4y ago
  I dont get paid to answer my phone outside of work hours. I sure as hell dont feel obligated to answer it. Stop working for free. Its your time not your employers. If I were being compensated for on-call time I would be answering the phone. That is a different arrangement.
• tschellenbach 4y ago
  What's up with all the negativity in this thread? This is a great time for people who want to have an impact. If you get fed up with corporate life you can create your own startup. The USA has the best VC ecosystem in the world. Alternatively you could bootstrap or join a startup. For a bootstrapped startup you could even decide to only work 1 or 2 days a week if that's what you prefer / and can keep the lights on that way. In general that whole outlook of blaming things on external stuff that's outside of your control isn't healthy. It's such a great time to build
  • fartcannon 4y ago
    Your solution is just to find a VC? That's not going to work for 95% of people.
  • eighteyes 4y ago
    feeling like overwork is the norm to have a career? you should start or join a startup! that's a recipe for burnout and an early grave. you're either so young that you still believe in the meritocracy or so rich that you need to believe in it to morally justify your existence.
• dekhn 4y ago
  I guess the way I look at it is, I didn't disconnect much during my 20s or 30s while I was building my career. Any time I could be working it means I could have made one more discovery or published one more paper or written one more grant. Not doing so would mean giving up future freedoms- either having to take more restrictive jobs or not having a job at all. In return, I now have far more free time and more money with which to enjoy it. That said, there are situations where my employer might need more of my time than usual, outside of normal work hours, and that's fine, so long as it's agreed upon in advance (I don't do on-calls, and I left academia, because fuck their work attitude).
• hitovst 4y ago
  99% of the time,"deserve" applies to that which we have. Of course we have the right to "disconnect". People have to take responsibility for themselves. In the US, there are now two jobs for every one person looking for work. It always has been, and will be, up to someone to agree to the terms offered, and they may always refuse. I know it's en vogue to pretend that everyone is a helpless idiot being taken advantage of, and that they need to be rescued by the state.. and that is partially responsible for the lack of accountability people have for their situation. No one must connect to anything if they don't choose to. Take responsibility for your agreements, and meet them.
• beebmam 4y ago
  I'm fine with being permanently connected to work if they pay me $500k+ a year (In 2022 dollars)
• noltncy 4y ago
  I test internal/enterprise software for a large corp in US. The reason I’m not able to disconnect is the sheer amount of work thrust at me, coupled with an incompetent team located in another part of the world (I have to manage them during weird hours). It’s living hell, and I can’t get out (combination of visa restrictions, decent pay, location). It’s an entirely different reality compared to what others have shared here, and I know a lot of folks who are in the same boat with me.