14 ms·

Relatedly, why can't I get a simple USB-C hub? I have four USB-C ports on my laptop and I need six. Back in the USB-A days, I'd just get a $30 hub and four ne

Relatedly, why can't I get a simple USB-C hub? I have four USB-C ports on my laptop and I need six. Back in the USB-A days, I'd just get a $30 hub and four new full speed ports at the cost of one on the laptop. But now if I want three more full speed ports, I have to get a four port dock/hub that costs $179 and has to get plugged into the wall. Am I not looking correctly or is there some technical limitation I'm not aware of or ...? Edit: It seems like the consensus is basically "people wouldn't read the specs", which is a fair criticism. USB-C supports so many different types of devices that it would be impossible to make one that supports them all, and if you support a subset people would get mad that their device isn't in that subset.

rawbot 5y ago
USB 1 and 2 were relatively simple protocols, and had very low energy profile (I think max power on the original USB 2.0 spec is 2.5W (5V, 0.5A) [0]. Same with bandwidth. Back in USB 2.0 days, a single port could consume at most 480 Mbps in bandwidth, so let's say that your typical USB 2.0 hub consumed at most 2Gbps. That's very easy to accomplish in terms of I/O [1] (1 PCIe Gen 1.0 x1 port). Now imagine 4 USB 3.2 or eventually 4.0 full speed ports: that is 20 Gbps per port, and Thunderbolt 3 has 40 Gbps per port. That means a 4-port HUB would need to have I/O capabilities of 80 or 160 Gbps. That is even beyond PCI express 4.0 w/ 4 lanes (8GB/s). A single Thunderbolt 3 port can consume theoretically half as much as the best and fastest NVMe SSDs (around 7 GB/s). Basically, what I am trying to say is that it is getting harder and harder to achieve with USB 3.2 (and eventually 4.0) what was easy to do with USB 2.0. Our computers are just not getting fast enough to support all these I/O speeds. That's why most PCIe extension cards only offer a single USB-C port. A standard PCIe Gen 4.0 1x port cannot even support that at top speed!. Take a look at this card [2]: a single USB port doesn't even support 20Gbps speeds, and half the ports share the same 10Gbps bandwidth. And this card requires a PCIe 3.0 x4 port. And this is just bandwith. In terms of power, it is pretty much the same issue, Power Delivery can consume 100W at most. That's more power than the normal draw of a typical "ultrabook" laptop (around 60-65W). Now imagine 4 of these, 400W. That's a standard desktop PC PSU requirement. tl;dr it is just not possible to support this much I/O speed and power draw with cheap consumer technology. That's why good USB 3.2 and Thunderbolt 3 hubs cost much, much more than USB 2.0 ever did. Also why they are much more complicated devices. [0] https://www.tripplite.com/products/usb-charging https://www.tripplite.com/products/usb-charging [1] https://www.crucial.com/support/articles-faq-ssd/pcie-speeds-limitations https://www.crucial.com/support/articles-faq-ssd/pcie-speeds... [2] https://www.newegg.com/inateck-ku8211-red-pci-express-to-usb-card/p/17Z-00HW-00067 https://www.newegg.com/inateck-ku8211-red-pci-express-to-usb...
Aachen 5y ago
> I have four USB-C ports on my laptop and I need six. I have four USB ports on my laptop and I need three. Unfortunately two are C and all my cables are A. I really wouldn't mind if USB-C just went away. I've got a single device with a C plug (which came with an A to C charging cable, of course) and some other brand new charging cables won't charge it if I don't hold the cable pushed in manually. Not sure if the cables are bad or the hole. I also find it harder to plug in than micro (maybe because there's no narrow point on the plug which you can put in the middle of the hole and then move it to the edge to automatically align it perfectly) and hate the metal on metal sound/feeling this gives. The plug seems to be badly designed compared to the other USB ports (never had this issue, from A to B to mini to micro to micro B) and very often has incompatibilities where you're just guessing whether a display is going to work at all. And then there's the ports problem. I've got a number of old cheap USB hubs laying around, like every techie I guess, but C hubs? Well... So this can now all go in the trash. We should stop this madness and come up with a better plug rather than a worse one, if we need to change all hardware anyway we might as well do it right the first time.
alistairSH 5y ago
Relatedly, why can't I get a simple USB-C hub? I have four USB-C ports on my laptop and I need six. Back in the USB-A days, I'd just get a $30 hub and four new full speed ports at the cost of one on the laptop. But now if I want three more full speed ports, I have to get a four port dock/hub that costs $179 and has to get plugged into the wall. I'd be happy paying the $179, as long as I was sure the stupid thing did everything the port on my laptop does. And didn't require external power. Right now, we're paying the $179, unsure if it actually does what we think (because the specs are so insane), and it's less usable. USB-C, in practice, is a giant step backwards. In theory, it's amazing, and when it works, it really is amazing, but holy crap, what a bowl of spaghetti.
- ascar 5y ago
  > as long as I was sure the stupid thing did everything the port on my laptop does. And didn't require external power. As I understand if you want it to do everything your laptop port does and expect to be able to use more than one port at a time there is absolutely no way around external power. And if you can only use one port at a time it's an adapter not a hub. You're asking for the impossible.
  - alistairSH 5y ago
    Does the onboard (to the laptop) USB-C port/controller not pass enough power for more than one port? Or just not enough power to provide "full power" to extra ports? I'd be happy to compromise that aspect as long as the various other data specs are met. I'm not trying to charge several big devices here, just AirPods and a phone, plus run two external monitors. And since I need to use one of the USB-C on the laptop to charge the laptop, I'm one port short sometimes.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
notRobot 5y ago
I have also been looking for such a device for a long time. It's baffling that it doesn't seem to exist.
- vmception 5y ago
  how much operating capital we need for some stuff like this designed to spec out of shenzhen?
maxerickson 5y ago
$40? https://www.amazon.com/Satechi-4-Port-USB-C-Hub-Compatible/dp/B09BNXMHSL https://www.amazon.com/Satechi-4-Port-USB-C-Hub-Compatible/d... Found it bouncing through https://www.amazon.com/USB-C-Gen-Hub-Adapter-7-Ports/dp/B09M7W9MZ7 https://www.amazon.com/USB-C-Gen-Hub-Adapter-7-Ports/dp/B09M... Left hub out, googled "USB-C 4 port" to get there.
- jedberg 5y ago
  That's data transfer only. I want it for my iPad and phone, so I want charging too.
  - maxerickson 5y ago
    Okay, well that doesn't seem surprising that it wants to be plugged into the wall then (because people will ignore the real limitation on power input from the supply device and complain).
    - vxNsr 5y ago
      Yup, that's always the answer. The customer doesn't give you the full specs, complains about why this isn't available already. When you deliver your proposed solution it turns out they had some extra physically impossible to fulfill requirements. Reminds me of "The Expert" skit.
      - ryanbrunner 5y ago
        The promise of usb (any version) is that you could have one port that everything plugs into. Usb-a isn't perfect in that regard, but it's mostly there. Usb-a backslid considerably on that promise.
      - notreallyserio 5y ago
        The customer is used to being able to plug all of their stuff into a lot standard wall outlet and their headphones in any standard 3.5mm jack so it's not at all surprising that they don't automatically provide all the specs. And frankly customers shouldn't have to care. USB engineers and PMs completely botched the design of USB-C.
blacksmith_tb 5y ago
Isn't the problem that anyone making such a device would have to deal with an endless stream of returns from customers who assumed they could just plug anything with the right form factor in only to discover that no, the bargain hub won't handle Thunderbolt, or 100W PD, or...
- jedberg 5y ago
  Maybe! I know better and read the specs, but you're right, a lot of people might get confused that it isn't charging their 100W laptop.
  - EamonnMR 5y ago
    We've trained people for decades that if it fits it should work. Now we've got a multitude of effectively different protocols all using the same connector shape.
    - _carbyau_ 5y ago
      I learnt "fits but won't work" running 5v(worked for the 486DX2) through a 3.3v CPU(DX4 100). The nymphs decided it was too hot and left. Since then, building your own PC has gotten easier and easier. As you say, mostly if it fits it works. Which I think is great! But how did plugging stuff in from the outside go the other way...
      - EamonnMR 5y ago
        Building a PC should be expected to require a certain level of RTFM that I don't you can responsibly expect from people just trying to charge their phone or plug in peripherals.
      - monocasa 5y ago
        I think we're talking more about end user external connections. I'm sure I don't have to tell you that back in the day a bajillion things ran through a DB-9s and DB-25s in electrically incompatible ways and how much easier it got to tech support our families with USB 1 and 2.
gumby 5y ago
USB-C is a pretty complex spec with many options. There aren’t a lot of chipsets for it. Most hubs make a lot of trade offs to get the cost down.
- adhesive_wombat 5y ago
  Indeed, it's the chipsets that are the limit. The IP is complex, so there's no one who really wants to design whole new cut-down silicon to implement a "simple" USB 3 dock with fewer features to sell for less money. And since the chipset supports it, and technically you can't certify it as USB 3 without it (not that all these devices are fully certified), you might as well just use what the chipset gives you. In fact, in terms of implementation, that's probably the easiest as you just follow the reference design. So that's what they do.
ascar 5y ago
You might enjoy this story: USB-C hubs and my slow descent into madness https://overengineer.dev/blog/2021/04/25/usb-c-hub-madness.html https://overengineer.dev/blog/2021/04/25/usb-c-hub-madness.h... It was recently discussed on HN https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30911598 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30911598 One interesting takeaway for me was that there are actually some quite cheap hubs available from AliExpress and the "branded" ones are essentially the same with a logo printed on (and hopefully some additional QA).
- Nanite 5y ago
  Can confirm, but not sure about better QA of the branded ones. Company issued macbook came with a "Satechi" hub, which died within 6 months, while two other noname AliExpress ones have worked with no issue for 2 years now
- danachow 5y ago
  > and hopefully some additional QA Very unlikely. For this sort of thing it’s always been safe to assume that Amazon or EBay are AliExpress with faster domestic shipping and better customer service - that is what the premium is buying you. USB hubs are only one of many items that are sold rebadged or not on both Amazon and Ali.
  - arbitrage 5y ago
    > one of many items that are sold rebadged or not way to narrow it down, there
    - donthellbanme 5y ago
      I can add this. A lot of specialized tools like watch tools, like high priced Bergeon/Horia, are found much cheaper on Alibaba with generic names. Vector watch lathes are Sincere lathes but cleaned up machinist wize, and put in a fancy wood laser etched box. Basically you are paying 2-3x for packaging, and minor fine tuning. I was once for tartifs. I wish we could go back to products being made in certain European countries, and the USA, but that ship has sailed. (Meaning countries that paid a living wage, and offered social services to their poor. USA is sadily not even trying to help its poorest citizens.) I still buy overpriced tooling/products on Amazon/ebay with jacked up prices because I just can't be sure on my intuition, and hate giving the Chinese my debt card. I should just buy prepaid cards, but they are another added expense, and very scammy. (There are no laws stating Prepaid cards need to tell you how much you have left on their cards. In most cases you need to talk to a representative of the company. And yes--the amount of money consumers forget they have on their prepaid cards is staggering. (A simple fix would be a federal law stating that any money left on prepaid card is returned to buyer, or at least email them of their balance.) If the Chinese government guaranteed they would go after any merchant that was fraudulent; I would buy most products from China. Why? Because buying American does not seem to filter down to the employees, or in taxes. The CEO's just get richer?
jeffbee 5y ago
"Simple USB-C hub" is very underspecified. Exactly what do you want it to do?
- bluGill 5y ago
  Speaking with my usability hat on (my degree is human machine interaction) that isn't a useful question as there is one correct answer: plug whatever devices in, in whatever order and combination.
  - jeffbee 5y ago
    OK, you plug a power supply, two laptops, and three monitors into a USB-C hub. What happens? Any kind of bus where peers can negotiate protocols is going to have severe usability issues. Just look at the MacBook that's plugged into itself: https://photos.app.goo.gl/G2PivEo1JrKKtA9W6 https://photos.app.goo.gl/G2PivEo1JrKKtA9W6 Given the fundamental usability problems of USB-C, I don't think there is anything anyone can do toward making a simple USB-C hub.
    - bluGill 5y ago
      > Given the fundamental usability problems of USB-C That is the whole point.
  - kuschku 5y ago
    Okay, so you want a hub that provides 240W per port and supports 40Gbps per port, right? Are you willing to pay the hundreds of dollars that’s going to cost?
    - bluGill 5y ago
      Cost to create a hub should have been a consideration of the spec designers. I'm involved (on the very edge) of C++ standards, and we often reject proposals because it would be too hard to implement, or too hard to teach. The proposal itself would be a useful, but the costs are too high.
toast0 5y ago
The limitation is that by wanting a USB-C hub, you've painted a dollar sign on your head. USB-A hubs are cheap and plentiful, and for many applications work fine with C devices with an A->C cable. If that's not sufficient, you must be a big spender.
- Gigachad 5y ago
  This doesn't seem accurate at all. There are cheap usb-c hubs which only pass down the usb3 capabilities. The expense comes down when you want to be driving 4k monitors, 1gbit ethernet, and charging your laptop through the same hub and cable which requires both extremely high speed data exchange combined with heavy duty power transfer and management.
  - orthoxerox 5y ago
    The expense is not the problem, inability to look at hubs and cables and reliably understand which ones can actually drive 4k monitors, 1Gbit Ethernet and charge the laptop at the same time without issues is the problem.
    - eldaisfish 5y ago
      this is precisely it. there's just so much confusion around USB C and the fact that not every Type-C plug functions identically. I miss USB 2.0.
      - Gigachad 5y ago
        Usb 2.0 and 3.0 still works exactly as it always did. If you only care about basic usb function, they all work. It only gets complex when you are trying to run a 4K video and 80w over the cable.
    - Gigachad 5y ago
      The Apple one does that, I have tested that specific combo. Everything else I wouldn't be confident of.
nixpulvis 5y ago
This is a fantastic reflection on what I consider to be a pretty big failure of the while One Port to Rule Them All idea.
Spooky23 5y ago
What’s a simple USB hub? The standard is bonkers, and encapsulates other complex standards for kicks. Implementation requires a bunch of different chips and using the correct, unlabeled wire that is identical. My company is the proud owners of about 50,000 USB-C and USB—C/Thunderbolt docks. They are both amazing and awful. One vendors thunderbolt dock is better than the plain USB-C, another is the opposite. Minor, undocumented differences in firmware or chip revisions may have a major impact on quality. One OEM’s driver bricked laptops. When stuff works, it’s amazing to the point that it seems impossible. Some higher end workstations are pushing 5x more IO than a (admittedly aging) midrange SAN that’s on the floor can.
- derefr 5y ago
  > What’s a simple USB hub? The quintessential "simple USB hub": https://www.amazon.ca/UGREEN-Adapter-MacBook-Chromebook-Pixelbook/dp/B07PY87TBD/ref=sr_1_5?keywords=USB+Type+C+Hub&qid=1652232808&sr=8-5 https://www.amazon.ca/UGREEN-Adapter-MacBook-Chromebook-Pixe... Replace the USB-A ports in the above with USB-C ports, and it's what the GP poster is imagining. But, for some reason, nobody makes that. Even though it'd be USB-3.1 either way; even though you can plug USB-A-to-C cables into this hub, and it'd be exactly the same as plugging USB-C-to-C cables into a hypothetical USB-C-replicating hub.
  - tshaddox 5y ago
    I think the point is that the built-in ports on your computer might support any combination of a large number of possible features, and that it is difficult/expensive to make a hub that supports all of them, and people would hate a hub that happens to not support one particular feature that their computer’s built-in ports support.
    - derefr 5y ago
      But this is what I meant by: > you can plug USB-A-to-C cables into this hub, and it'd be exactly the same as plugging USB-C-to-C cables into a hypothetical USB-C-replicating hub I.e., anything you can plug into a USB-C port using a C-to-C cable, you can plug into a USB-A port using an A-to-C cable. So if the problem is idiots thinking "if it connects, it should work" — then wouldn't these same idiots be complaining that their Thunderbolt peripherals, external USB-C monitors, etc. don't work when plugged into one of these simple C-to-A hubs via an A-to-C cable? But that doesn't seem to stop the C-to-A hubs from existing.
rektide 5y ago
Tons of answers here. I think, if you want complex usb-pd offerings, you need to accept a pretty high $$$ price for all those power regulation subsystems you are demanding. I would be surprised to hear that indeed all the current offerings require wall power, that none can operate off laptop/uplink- I think you are wrong. But perhaps. Overall I think the main current barrier to entry has been usb-c alt modes. If someone plugs a hdmi adapter into one of the hubs ports, ehat happens then? USB3+C's crazy lane splitting has been pretty suboptimal for figuring out what the role of a hub really is in the world today. USB4 at least fixes that, makes usb a packet switched transport that tunnels other protocols. Now if someome plugs a displayport adapter into a hub, it's just going to use bandwidth. The whole tree under the usb-root doesnt have to totslly rebuild itself to make available a lane for some other purpose. The flexibility of usb-c, with it's two channels, is a complexity we've only finally specified a proper means to make use of. It's getting better. Looking forward to some other companies starting to offer hub chips, seeing this young new scene begin to evolve.
- jml7c5 5y ago
  Does USB4 tunnel original USB (1.0-2.0), or is that still on its own separate pins? I was under the impression that electrical and timing requirements meant it was virtually impossible to tunnel it while remaining in spec.
  - namibj 5y ago
    Worse: at least thunderbolt provided USB downstream ports by including a PCIe-backed USB root controller. On USB4, all USB 2.0 downstream devices have to share the limited USB 2.0 bandwidth at the upstream port. They could have just specified a translator like they did for USB 1.1 -> USB 2.0, but they didn't and it's not possible to make one that works reliably/portably.
- omegalulw 5y ago
  My understanding is that Displayport is already packetized, having USB4 packetize it again seems suboptimal? I think both Displayport and HDMI have official specs that work over the USB-C connector.
bsder 5y ago
> Relatedly, why can't I get a simple USB-C hub? I have four USB-C ports on my laptop and I need six. Back in the USB-A days, I'd just get a $30 hub and four new full speed ports at the cost of one on the laptop. The problem is that, I believe, a USB-C port is effectively required to provide a minimum of 5V at 3A on every port. I believe that USB 3 only requires 5V at 0.9A and USB 2.0 only requires 500mA (you nominally have to negotiate up to 500mA from 100mA--but nobody ever does that they just suck down 500mA without paying attention). At that point, you can see how much more power USB-C is shoveling around. A 4-port hub is shoveling 60W minimum for USB-C, roughly 20W maximum for USB 3 and roughly 10W maximum for USB 2. And, to be fair, life wasn't magically better in the USB 2 hub days. I have had loads of USB 2.0 hubs that do screwball things once they get a little overdrawn on their power. I eventually discovered that a good way to predict reliability of my USB 2 hubs was to look at the amperage of the wall wart that they shipped with it (the bigger the better). And USB 3 isn't automatically better. I literally just had to replace a whole bunch of old, very nice, very stable, aluminum wedge USB 3 hubs because Microsoft updated something and simply plugging them in would blue screen the computer. Once I bought all new plastic chintztastic USB 3 hubs, Windoze is now happy. Microsoft can go die in a fire.
skybrian 5y ago
I looked into how USB 2 unpowered hubs work and it sounds like "not very well." For example, Anker sells a USB 3 hub and it's up to the user to make sure that whatever is plugged into it doesn't exceed 900 milliamps. I'm thinking that a good way to go would be to get a hub that connects to a USB-C port and lets you plug in USB 2/3 devices? That way there's plenty of power for them without needing a power adapter. Plus USB 2 devices are cheaper.
- imtringued 5y ago
  These hubs need some sort of power indicator. Red flashing = running out of power.
bayindirh 5y ago
The problem is the plethora of features USB-C supports, and the bandwidth required to pass them all downstream. In other words, you need to passthru PCIe to the hub, and break out to USB-C and other ports from there, Which is simply expensive. On the other hand, Kingston's Nucleum is a nice hub. It provides two additional USB-C ports with PD support in one of them, provides two USB 3.0 USB-A ports, a proper card reader and an HDMI port. I take photos and my camera produces 50MB images, and carrying them over a nice card reader which can use the full bandwidth of the card is nice, and Nucleum delivers.
Groxx 5y ago
I use a USB-C to USB-A converter, plug in an old USB-A hub, and plug USB-A to USB-C converters into each port. Works great. You'll be stuck with USB 2.0 speeds, but it connects to, passes data to, and charges every single dumb device I have with no problems. Mice, keyboard, USB-C headphones, my phone, other laptops that charge over USB-C... and that's all I ever really wanted. Apple's 2-USB-C-port laptop was literal insanity.
- mschuster91 5y ago
  > Apple's 2-USB-C-port laptop was literal insanity. Actually... I do get the idea. 99.9% of the time I only use one of my four USB-C/TB ports, and that's for power. The other 0.1% is when I connect my Android phone for a firmware update (it's rooted, so have to go the hard way) or an SD card reader.
  - Groxx 5y ago
    I routinely have keyboard + monitor + power :| I've done a lot of "unplug power to do something briefly" because of it. And tbh the vast majority of monitors-with-usb-hubs ports I've used have been one of: not worked at all, absurdly slow like <1Mb/s, or provide only like 0.5A of power shared across all ports. They're so, so bad. I know good ones exist, but offices don't tend to buy those. And I don't really want to drop $1k on a new monitor. Thankfully this is a secondary device, for fixing stuff that breaks from the M1 migration.
oldsecondhand 5y ago
I have a Platinet 4 port USB 3.x hub/docker (USB-C uplink) that doesn't need a external power, however I didn't benchmark the speed, but I don't have the disconnection problems that I had with unpowered 2.0 Hubs.
skocznymroczny 5y ago
From my experience it never was simple in USB-A days either. The cheap hubs or the one mounted on the desk just didn't provide enough voltage. Sure, it might work to run your mouse (if it's not a fancy one with LEDs), but good luck connecting an external HDD to one.

rawbot 5y ago

USB 1 and 2 were relatively simple protocols, and had very low energy profile (I think max power on the original USB 2.0 spec is 2.5W (5V, 0.5A) [0]. Same with bandwidth. Back in USB 2.0 days, a single port could consume at most 480 Mbps in bandwidth, so let's say that your typical USB 2.0 hub consumed at most 2Gbps. That's very easy to accomplish in terms of I/O [1] (1 PCIe Gen 1.0 x1 port). Now imagine 4 USB 3.2 or eventually 4.0 full speed ports: that is 20 Gbps per port, and Thunderbolt 3 has 40 Gbps per port. That means a 4-port HUB would need to have I/O capabilities of 80 or 160 Gbps. That is even beyond PCI express 4.0 w/ 4 lanes (8GB/s). A single Thunderbolt 3 port can consume theoretically half as much as the best and fastest NVMe SSDs (around 7 GB/s). Basically, what I am trying to say is that it is getting harder and harder to achieve with USB 3.2 (and eventually 4.0) what was easy to do with USB 2.0. Our computers are just not getting fast enough to support all these I/O speeds. That's why most PCIe extension cards only offer a single USB-C port. A standard PCIe Gen 4.0 1x port cannot even support that at top speed!. Take a look at this card [2]: a single USB port doesn't even support 20Gbps speeds, and half the ports share the same 10Gbps bandwidth. And this card requires a PCIe 3.0 x4 port. And this is just bandwith. In terms of power, it is pretty much the same issue, Power Delivery can consume 100W at most. That's more power than the normal draw of a typical "ultrabook" laptop (around 60-65W). Now imagine 4 of these, 400W. That's a standard desktop PC PSU requirement. tl;dr it is just not possible to support this much I/O speed and power draw with cheap consumer technology. That's why good USB 3.2 and Thunderbolt 3 hubs cost much, much more than USB 2.0 ever did. Also why they are much more complicated devices. [0] https://www.tripplite.com/products/usb-charging https://www.tripplite.com/products/usb-charging [1] https://www.crucial.com/support/articles-faq-ssd/pcie-speeds-limitations https://www.crucial.com/support/articles-faq-ssd/pcie-speeds... [2] https://www.newegg.com/inateck-ku8211-red-pci-express-to-usb-card/p/17Z-00HW-00067 https://www.newegg.com/inateck-ku8211-red-pci-express-to-usb...

Aachen 5y ago

> I have four USB-C ports on my laptop and I need six. I have four USB ports on my laptop and I need three. Unfortunately two are C and all my cables are A. I really wouldn't mind if USB-C just went away. I've got a single device with a C plug (which came with an A to C charging cable, of course) and some other brand new charging cables won't charge it if I don't hold the cable pushed in manually. Not sure if the cables are bad or the hole. I also find it harder to plug in than micro (maybe because there's no narrow point on the plug which you can put in the middle of the hole and then move it to the edge to automatically align it perfectly) and hate the metal on metal sound/feeling this gives. The plug seems to be badly designed compared to the other USB ports (never had this issue, from A to B to mini to micro to micro B) and very often has incompatibilities where you're just guessing whether a display is going to work at all. And then there's the ports problem. I've got a number of old cheap USB hubs laying around, like every techie I guess, but C hubs? Well... So this can now all go in the trash. We should stop this madness and come up with a better plug rather than a worse one, if we need to change all hardware anyway we might as well do it right the first time.

alistairSH 5y ago

Relatedly, why can't I get a simple USB-C hub? I have four USB-C ports on my laptop and I need six. Back in the USB-A days, I'd just get a $30 hub and four new full speed ports at the cost of one on the laptop. But now if I want three more full speed ports, I have to get a four port dock/hub that costs $179 and has to get plugged into the wall. I'd be happy paying the $179, as long as I was sure the stupid thing did everything the port on my laptop does. And didn't require external power. Right now, we're paying the $179, unsure if it actually does what we think (because the specs are so insane), and it's less usable. USB-C, in practice, is a giant step backwards. In theory, it's amazing, and when it works, it really is amazing, but holy crap, what a bowl of spaghetti.

ascar 5y ago
> as long as I was sure the stupid thing did everything the port on my laptop does. And didn't require external power. As I understand if you want it to do everything your laptop port does and expect to be able to use more than one port at a time there is absolutely no way around external power. And if you can only use one port at a time it's an adapter not a hub. You're asking for the impossible.
- alistairSH 5y ago
  Does the onboard (to the laptop) USB-C port/controller not pass enough power for more than one port? Or just not enough power to provide "full power" to extra ports? I'd be happy to compromise that aspect as long as the various other data specs are met. I'm not trying to charge several big devices here, just AirPods and a phone, plus run two external monitors. And since I need to use one of the USB-C on the laptop to charge the laptop, I'm one port short sometimes.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

notRobot 5y ago

I have also been looking for such a device for a long time. It's baffling that it doesn't seem to exist.

vmception 5y ago
how much operating capital we need for some stuff like this designed to spec out of shenzhen?

maxerickson 5y ago

$40? https://www.amazon.com/Satechi-4-Port-USB-C-Hub-Compatible/dp/B09BNXMHSL https://www.amazon.com/Satechi-4-Port-USB-C-Hub-Compatible/d... Found it bouncing through https://www.amazon.com/USB-C-Gen-Hub-Adapter-7-Ports/dp/B09M7W9MZ7 https://www.amazon.com/USB-C-Gen-Hub-Adapter-7-Ports/dp/B09M... Left hub out, googled "USB-C 4 port" to get there.

jedberg 5y ago
That's data transfer only. I want it for my iPad and phone, so I want charging too.
- maxerickson 5y ago
  Okay, well that doesn't seem surprising that it wants to be plugged into the wall then (because people will ignore the real limitation on power input from the supply device and complain).
  - vxNsr 5y ago
    Yup, that's always the answer. The customer doesn't give you the full specs, complains about why this isn't available already. When you deliver your proposed solution it turns out they had some extra physically impossible to fulfill requirements. Reminds me of "The Expert" skit.
    - ryanbrunner 5y ago
      The promise of usb (any version) is that you could have one port that everything plugs into. Usb-a isn't perfect in that regard, but it's mostly there. Usb-a backslid considerably on that promise.
    - notreallyserio 5y ago
      The customer is used to being able to plug all of their stuff into a lot standard wall outlet and their headphones in any standard 3.5mm jack so it's not at all surprising that they don't automatically provide all the specs. And frankly customers shouldn't have to care. USB engineers and PMs completely botched the design of USB-C.

blacksmith_tb 5y ago

Isn't the problem that anyone making such a device would have to deal with an endless stream of returns from customers who assumed they could just plug anything with the right form factor in only to discover that no, the bargain hub won't handle Thunderbolt, or 100W PD, or...

jedberg 5y ago
Maybe! I know better and read the specs, but you're right, a lot of people might get confused that it isn't charging their 100W laptop.
- EamonnMR 5y ago
  We've trained people for decades that if it fits it should work. Now we've got a multitude of effectively different protocols all using the same connector shape.
  - _carbyau_ 5y ago
    I learnt "fits but won't work" running 5v(worked for the 486DX2) through a 3.3v CPU(DX4 100). The nymphs decided it was too hot and left. Since then, building your own PC has gotten easier and easier. As you say, mostly if it fits it works. Which I think is great! But how did plugging stuff in from the outside go the other way...
    - EamonnMR 5y ago
      Building a PC should be expected to require a certain level of RTFM that I don't you can responsibly expect from people just trying to charge their phone or plug in peripherals.
    - monocasa 5y ago
      I think we're talking more about end user external connections. I'm sure I don't have to tell you that back in the day a bajillion things ran through a DB-9s and DB-25s in electrically incompatible ways and how much easier it got to tech support our families with USB 1 and 2.

gumby 5y ago

USB-C is a pretty complex spec with many options. There aren’t a lot of chipsets for it. Most hubs make a lot of trade offs to get the cost down.

adhesive_wombat 5y ago
Indeed, it's the chipsets that are the limit. The IP is complex, so there's no one who really wants to design whole new cut-down silicon to implement a "simple" USB 3 dock with fewer features to sell for less money. And since the chipset supports it, and technically you can't certify it as USB 3 without it (not that all these devices are fully certified), you might as well just use what the chipset gives you. In fact, in terms of implementation, that's probably the easiest as you just follow the reference design. So that's what they do.

ascar 5y ago

You might enjoy this story: USB-C hubs and my slow descent into madness https://overengineer.dev/blog/2021/04/25/usb-c-hub-madness.html https://overengineer.dev/blog/2021/04/25/usb-c-hub-madness.h... It was recently discussed on HN https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30911598 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30911598 One interesting takeaway for me was that there are actually some quite cheap hubs available from AliExpress and the "branded" ones are essentially the same with a logo printed on (and hopefully some additional QA).

Nanite 5y ago
Can confirm, but not sure about better QA of the branded ones. Company issued macbook came with a "Satechi" hub, which died within 6 months, while two other noname AliExpress ones have worked with no issue for 2 years now
danachow 5y ago
> and hopefully some additional QA Very unlikely. For this sort of thing it’s always been safe to assume that Amazon or EBay are AliExpress with faster domestic shipping and better customer service - that is what the premium is buying you. USB hubs are only one of many items that are sold rebadged or not on both Amazon and Ali.
- arbitrage 5y ago
  > one of many items that are sold rebadged or not way to narrow it down, there
  - donthellbanme 5y ago
    I can add this. A lot of specialized tools like watch tools, like high priced Bergeon/Horia, are found much cheaper on Alibaba with generic names. Vector watch lathes are Sincere lathes but cleaned up machinist wize, and put in a fancy wood laser etched box. Basically you are paying 2-3x for packaging, and minor fine tuning. I was once for tartifs. I wish we could go back to products being made in certain European countries, and the USA, but that ship has sailed. (Meaning countries that paid a living wage, and offered social services to their poor. USA is sadily not even trying to help its poorest citizens.) I still buy overpriced tooling/products on Amazon/ebay with jacked up prices because I just can't be sure on my intuition, and hate giving the Chinese my debt card. I should just buy prepaid cards, but they are another added expense, and very scammy. (There are no laws stating Prepaid cards need to tell you how much you have left on their cards. In most cases you need to talk to a representative of the company. And yes--the amount of money consumers forget they have on their prepaid cards is staggering. (A simple fix would be a federal law stating that any money left on prepaid card is returned to buyer, or at least email them of their balance.) If the Chinese government guaranteed they would go after any merchant that was fraudulent; I would buy most products from China. Why? Because buying American does not seem to filter down to the employees, or in taxes. The CEO's just get richer?

jeffbee 5y ago

"Simple USB-C hub" is very underspecified. Exactly what do you want it to do?

bluGill 5y ago
Speaking with my usability hat on (my degree is human machine interaction) that isn't a useful question as there is one correct answer: plug whatever devices in, in whatever order and combination.
- jeffbee 5y ago
  OK, you plug a power supply, two laptops, and three monitors into a USB-C hub. What happens? Any kind of bus where peers can negotiate protocols is going to have severe usability issues. Just look at the MacBook that's plugged into itself: https://photos.app.goo.gl/G2PivEo1JrKKtA9W6 https://photos.app.goo.gl/G2PivEo1JrKKtA9W6 Given the fundamental usability problems of USB-C, I don't think there is anything anyone can do toward making a simple USB-C hub.
  - bluGill 5y ago
    > Given the fundamental usability problems of USB-C That is the whole point.
- kuschku 5y ago
  Okay, so you want a hub that provides 240W per port and supports 40Gbps per port, right? Are you willing to pay the hundreds of dollars that’s going to cost?
  - bluGill 5y ago
    Cost to create a hub should have been a consideration of the spec designers. I'm involved (on the very edge) of C++ standards, and we often reject proposals because it would be too hard to implement, or too hard to teach. The proposal itself would be a useful, but the costs are too high.

toast0 5y ago

The limitation is that by wanting a USB-C hub, you've painted a dollar sign on your head. USB-A hubs are cheap and plentiful, and for many applications work fine with C devices with an A->C cable. If that's not sufficient, you must be a big spender.

Gigachad 5y ago
This doesn't seem accurate at all. There are cheap usb-c hubs which only pass down the usb3 capabilities. The expense comes down when you want to be driving 4k monitors, 1gbit ethernet, and charging your laptop through the same hub and cable which requires both extremely high speed data exchange combined with heavy duty power transfer and management.
- orthoxerox 5y ago
  The expense is not the problem, inability to look at hubs and cables and reliably understand which ones can actually drive 4k monitors, 1Gbit Ethernet and charge the laptop at the same time without issues is the problem.
  - eldaisfish 5y ago
    this is precisely it. there's just so much confusion around USB C and the fact that not every Type-C plug functions identically. I miss USB 2.0.
    - Gigachad 5y ago
      Usb 2.0 and 3.0 still works exactly as it always did. If you only care about basic usb function, they all work. It only gets complex when you are trying to run a 4K video and 80w over the cable.
  - Gigachad 5y ago
    The Apple one does that, I have tested that specific combo. Everything else I wouldn't be confident of.

nixpulvis 5y ago

This is a fantastic reflection on what I consider to be a pretty big failure of the while One Port to Rule Them All idea.

Spooky23 5y ago

What’s a simple USB hub? The standard is bonkers, and encapsulates other complex standards for kicks. Implementation requires a bunch of different chips and using the correct, unlabeled wire that is identical. My company is the proud owners of about 50,000 USB-C and USB—C/Thunderbolt docks. They are both amazing and awful. One vendors thunderbolt dock is better than the plain USB-C, another is the opposite. Minor, undocumented differences in firmware or chip revisions may have a major impact on quality. One OEM’s driver bricked laptops. When stuff works, it’s amazing to the point that it seems impossible. Some higher end workstations are pushing 5x more IO than a (admittedly aging) midrange SAN that’s on the floor can.

derefr 5y ago
> What’s a simple USB hub? The quintessential "simple USB hub": https://www.amazon.ca/UGREEN-Adapter-MacBook-Chromebook-Pixelbook/dp/B07PY87TBD/ref=sr_1_5?keywords=USB+Type+C+Hub&qid=1652232808&sr=8-5 https://www.amazon.ca/UGREEN-Adapter-MacBook-Chromebook-Pixe... Replace the USB-A ports in the above with USB-C ports, and it's what the GP poster is imagining. But, for some reason, nobody makes that. Even though it'd be USB-3.1 either way; even though you can plug USB-A-to-C cables into this hub, and it'd be exactly the same as plugging USB-C-to-C cables into a hypothetical USB-C-replicating hub.
- tshaddox 5y ago
  I think the point is that the built-in ports on your computer might support any combination of a large number of possible features, and that it is difficult/expensive to make a hub that supports all of them, and people would hate a hub that happens to not support one particular feature that their computer’s built-in ports support.
  - derefr 5y ago
    But this is what I meant by: > you can plug USB-A-to-C cables into this hub, and it'd be exactly the same as plugging USB-C-to-C cables into a hypothetical USB-C-replicating hub I.e., anything you can plug into a USB-C port using a C-to-C cable, you can plug into a USB-A port using an A-to-C cable. So if the problem is idiots thinking "if it connects, it should work" — then wouldn't these same idiots be complaining that their Thunderbolt peripherals, external USB-C monitors, etc. don't work when plugged into one of these simple C-to-A hubs via an A-to-C cable? But that doesn't seem to stop the C-to-A hubs from existing.

rektide 5y ago

Tons of answers here. I think, if you want complex usb-pd offerings, you need to accept a pretty high $$$ price for all those power regulation subsystems you are demanding. I would be surprised to hear that indeed all the current offerings require wall power, that none can operate off laptop/uplink- I think you are wrong. But perhaps. Overall I think the main current barrier to entry has been usb-c alt modes. If someone plugs a hdmi adapter into one of the hubs ports, ehat happens then? USB3+C's crazy lane splitting has been pretty suboptimal for figuring out what the role of a hub really is in the world today. USB4 at least fixes that, makes usb a packet switched transport that tunnels other protocols. Now if someome plugs a displayport adapter into a hub, it's just going to use bandwidth. The whole tree under the usb-root doesnt have to totslly rebuild itself to make available a lane for some other purpose. The flexibility of usb-c, with it's two channels, is a complexity we've only finally specified a proper means to make use of. It's getting better. Looking forward to some other companies starting to offer hub chips, seeing this young new scene begin to evolve.

jml7c5 5y ago
Does USB4 tunnel original USB (1.0-2.0), or is that still on its own separate pins? I was under the impression that electrical and timing requirements meant it was virtually impossible to tunnel it while remaining in spec.
- namibj 5y ago
  Worse: at least thunderbolt provided USB downstream ports by including a PCIe-backed USB root controller. On USB4, all USB 2.0 downstream devices have to share the limited USB 2.0 bandwidth at the upstream port. They could have just specified a translator like they did for USB 1.1 -> USB 2.0, but they didn't and it's not possible to make one that works reliably/portably.
omegalulw 5y ago
My understanding is that Displayport is already packetized, having USB4 packetize it again seems suboptimal? I think both Displayport and HDMI have official specs that work over the USB-C connector.

bsder 5y ago

> Relatedly, why can't I get a simple USB-C hub? I have four USB-C ports on my laptop and I need six. Back in the USB-A days, I'd just get a $30 hub and four new full speed ports at the cost of one on the laptop. The problem is that, I believe, a USB-C port is effectively required to provide a minimum of 5V at 3A on every port. I believe that USB 3 only requires 5V at 0.9A and USB 2.0 only requires 500mA (you nominally have to negotiate up to 500mA from 100mA--but nobody ever does that they just suck down 500mA without paying attention). At that point, you can see how much more power USB-C is shoveling around. A 4-port hub is shoveling 60W minimum for USB-C, roughly 20W maximum for USB 3 and roughly 10W maximum for USB 2. And, to be fair, life wasn't magically better in the USB 2 hub days. I have had loads of USB 2.0 hubs that do screwball things once they get a little overdrawn on their power. I eventually discovered that a good way to predict reliability of my USB 2 hubs was to look at the amperage of the wall wart that they shipped with it (the bigger the better). And USB 3 isn't automatically better. I literally just had to replace a whole bunch of old, very nice, very stable, aluminum wedge USB 3 hubs because Microsoft updated something and simply plugging them in would blue screen the computer. Once I bought all new plastic chintztastic USB 3 hubs, Windoze is now happy. Microsoft can go die in a fire.

skybrian 5y ago

I looked into how USB 2 unpowered hubs work and it sounds like "not very well." For example, Anker sells a USB 3 hub and it's up to the user to make sure that whatever is plugged into it doesn't exceed 900 milliamps. I'm thinking that a good way to go would be to get a hub that connects to a USB-C port and lets you plug in USB 2/3 devices? That way there's plenty of power for them without needing a power adapter. Plus USB 2 devices are cheaper.

imtringued 5y ago
These hubs need some sort of power indicator. Red flashing = running out of power.

bayindirh 5y ago

The problem is the plethora of features USB-C supports, and the bandwidth required to pass them all downstream. In other words, you need to passthru PCIe to the hub, and break out to USB-C and other ports from there, Which is simply expensive. On the other hand, Kingston's Nucleum is a nice hub. It provides two additional USB-C ports with PD support in one of them, provides two USB 3.0 USB-A ports, a proper card reader and an HDMI port. I take photos and my camera produces 50MB images, and carrying them over a nice card reader which can use the full bandwidth of the card is nice, and Nucleum delivers.

Groxx 5y ago

I use a USB-C to USB-A converter, plug in an old USB-A hub, and plug USB-A to USB-C converters into each port. Works great. You'll be stuck with USB 2.0 speeds, but it connects to, passes data to, and charges every single dumb device I have with no problems. Mice, keyboard, USB-C headphones, my phone, other laptops that charge over USB-C... and that's all I ever really wanted. Apple's 2-USB-C-port laptop was literal insanity.

mschuster91 5y ago
> Apple's 2-USB-C-port laptop was literal insanity. Actually... I do get the idea. 99.9% of the time I only use one of my four USB-C/TB ports, and that's for power. The other 0.1% is when I connect my Android phone for a firmware update (it's rooted, so have to go the hard way) or an SD card reader.
- Groxx 5y ago
  I routinely have keyboard + monitor + power :| I've done a lot of "unplug power to do something briefly" because of it. And tbh the vast majority of monitors-with-usb-hubs ports I've used have been one of: not worked at all, absurdly slow like <1Mb/s, or provide only like 0.5A of power shared across all ports. They're so, so bad. I know good ones exist, but offices don't tend to buy those. And I don't really want to drop $1k on a new monitor. Thankfully this is a secondary device, for fixing stuff that breaks from the M1 migration.

oldsecondhand 5y ago

I have a Platinet 4 port USB 3.x hub/docker (USB-C uplink) that doesn't need a external power, however I didn't benchmark the speed, but I don't have the disconnection problems that I had with unpowered 2.0 Hubs.

skocznymroczny 5y ago

From my experience it never was simple in USB-A days either. The cheap hubs or the one mounted on the desk just didn't provide enough voltage. Sure, it might work to run your mouse (if it's not a fancy one with LEDs), but good luck connecting an external HDD to one.