10 ms·

While I’m on a tech rant – who invented this piece of pure sadism?

83 points by HL33tibCe7 4y ago

simplehuman 4y ago
The Bart machine is horrible as well
Krisjohn 4y ago
I feel like you don't get to piss all over the design if you've never built a physical interface that has to be weatherproof on an exposed device that holds money.
- frereubu 4y ago
  This isn't about security or being weatherproof. This is about basics, like using a QWERTY keyboard that everyone's familiar with, and clear instructions that are easy to follow. I work in tech and each time I see one of these I'm glad I can pay by smartphone.
  - sofixa 4y ago
    QWERTY isn't the official worldwide standard. These machines are also used in France, where AZERTY is the (imho terrible) norm.
    - Nextgrid 4y ago
      However the 3-row layout is mostly the same everywhere so it would just be a matter of swapping plastic overlays & keymaps in software.
    - frereubu 4y ago
      This machine is in the UK.
      - dazc 4y ago
        Obviously, where else would you find such pettiness? Relying upon a machine that is so complex and frustrating to use far outweighs the tiny loss of revenue for when people pass on unused parking time to someone else.
    - bin_bash 4y ago
      ok but no layout puts the "0" as the first digit
      - bmacho 4y ago
        TIL that no layouts put 0 as first digit. Not US, UK, FR, German or so. Somehow I thought the opposite, I was sure that my layout (Hungarian[1]) is about the same as every other, most probably a direct copy of the German, but nah. [1]: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=hungarian+keyboard+layout&iar=images https://duckduckgo.com/?q=hungarian+keyboard+layout&iar=imag...
        layer8 4y ago
        Earlier typewriters didn’t have 0 and 1 keys [1] and instead the O and l keys did double duty. When 0 and 1 keys were finally added on typewriters, there probably wasn’t enough space to add them both on the left side. The fact that the previously used O key is to the right may also have been a factor. [1] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/88/Olivetti_Lettera_22_by_LjL.jpeg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/88/Olivetti...
    - xmodem 4y ago
      is it not possible to re-configure the machine to match the market it's going to?
  - grokx 4y ago
    I worked for a while as a contractor for Parkeon/Flowbird, and asked about the keyboard layout to a hardware manager there. His explanation was that they did not use AZERTY or QWERTY because it wouldn't work for foreigners.
- cookie_monsta 4y ago
  I feel like every interface designer should be forced to watch, clockwork orange-style as uninitiated users attempt to navigate their creations before they are unleashed on the public.
  - tobr 4y ago
    We already do, it’s called user testing.
    - jen20 4y ago
      Well then why don’t you fix them after said testing? There is literally no excuse for taking over a second to respond to a button press. A ZX Spectrum would be more responsive than most of these stupid machines.
    - BeFlatXIII 4y ago
      Then do more and fix the problems.
- adhesive_wombat 4y ago
  Also it must last for, say, 15 years, be installable by road workers, and deal with abuse from not only the theives, but also vandals and construction workers repairing the road and pavement nearby.
  - amelius 4y ago
    I'd say it's still super easy to vandalize though, by just squeezing a tube of superglue into e.g. the card slot, making sure one isn't caught on CCTV of course.
    - adhesive_wombat 4y ago
      Luckily, most vandalism doesn't appear to be committed by people with the intelligence to cause real damage, they just spray paint their initials on it, try to set the metal box on fire or scratch or dent the case. There's only so much one can do to defend a 1mm slot that has to accept a plastic card (ditto for coin slots).
  - noirbot 4y ago
    That's part of the issue though, isn't it? Someone paints over the keyboard and you have no idea where anything is because it's not a normal layout for a keyboard. If it was QWERTY and then a numpad, some people would be able to use it blindly, or pull up their phone to check positions.
    - adhesive_wombat 4y ago
      Like I said above, it's probably an idea that an alphabetical layout is somewhat familiar to everyone, but a QWERTY layout is only familiar to people who type. Not that long ago, fewer people than you might expect were familiar with QWERTY keyboards (no smartphones before about 2006). These machines are also for use by people who have never used a computer or smartphone, and, incurring the elderly people that councils have to consider, they exist. I'm guessing at their reasoning, but "everyone knows QWERTY" is probably not as true as you think, or if it is, it hasn't been so for that long. It could also be an international company that doesn't want to have SKUs for the keypad for every region (eg France uses AZERTY).
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- rwmj 4y ago
  It needs to be vandalproof because every time I use one I feel the need to hit the stupid thing. Luckily I'm pretty mild-mannered, but I'm sure many are not.
nairboon 4y ago
What is the issue here?
- Nextgrid 4y ago
  At first glance, the keyboard layout? The QWERTY layout has been around for much longer than this machine, so why not use it? The screen is barely readable too. I'm sure the software is equally terrible and slow as hell.
  - padjo 4y ago
    We have similar machines here and the input is extremely unreliable and laggy, I.e buttons work maybe 30% of the time and it takes about a second to perform an action. I’m sure you can imagine how frustrating that is to use the first few times.
    - noirbot 4y ago
      Yea, this is, in some ways, the biggest UX issue, though something the designer likely had no control over. These machines are just unbearably slow, and I have no idea why. It seems crazy that something like typing in your plate number would take most of a second per character, which is made even worse by a lack of feedback if the button press was accepted, so you often double-type, which leads to corrections, which also take forever.
      - Nextgrid 4y ago
        I think the problem is that the implementation of the system is outsourced to companies who have more expertise navigating government bureaucracy than actually building good software. All the money gets spent on papers and endless meetings (and maybe passed under the table if not outright handed over if in a jurisdiction where corruption aka "lobbying" is legal) so there isn't much left to pay to attract & retain good talent. A few months/years down the line, even the sub-par talent working on it will probably realize how terrible their product is, but speaking up would be akin to admitting defeat (and might have career risks), so nobody says anything and congratulates themselves for having "delivered" the project. When the end client receives the deliverable the same situation applies, it's too late to backpedal even though the product is shit, so they also keep quiet and pretend like it is fine.
tsukurimashou 4y ago
It's a French company (Parkeon, now known as Flowbird) that historically made mechanical parking meters. I worked there for a while, if you think this version is bad you should see the "next gen" tactile one!
- dennis_jeeves1 4y ago
  Should we hang you for following orders? lol, It's a joke
smitty1e 4y ago
And don't get me started on the 75 phone apps of dodgy vintage.
arrakis2021 4y ago
The Guvment
lqet 4y ago
Ha, I was in Italy last year and literally tried to get a parking ticket from one of those machines for 10 minutes, without success. The only instructions were some words in Italian, which I vaguely translated as "enter the number". The number of the parking space? Nope. Maybe the number of hours? Nope. Maybe the time until I want the space? Nope. Maybe the amount of cash it should take from my credit card? Nope. Maybe it was stuck in a previous transaction and the "number" was the PIN? Maybe the machine was in some kind of admin maintenance mode and was expecting a password? Nope, the next machine asked for the same "number". Maybe all the machines were broken? Nope, there were cars with a ticket behind the front window. I talked to another group of tourists with exactly the same problem, but 7 people were not enough brainpower to figure the machine out. While I finally walked back to car to tell the family in shame that I was, indeed, not able to use a ticket machine successfully, it suddenly hit me: the machine expects the license plate number!
- hackflip 4y ago
  In Calgary I've used a parking machine that asked for a lot number. That is on a sign as you enter the parking lot. As if this machine could not be programmed to already know which lot of was permanently installed in.
- flemhans 4y ago
  That was my first thought when I read your comment. That "number" referred to the license plate. (In my language, license plates are called number plates.)
- mdp2021 4y ago
  I believe that the second button in the bottom row, "flags icons", should be the language. But honestly, after reading the post I thought I would just glance at the picture and see clear indications for "change language" instructions, the same way a proofreader takes moments to find what the writer will just not see until pointed. Instead, it did take me an unexpected amount of time, and I still feel that option as well concealed.
emptybits 4y ago
About 22 years ago, we began doing our best to obsolete those things. To the degree you want to pay for parking, lol, the preferred device has long been in your pocket IMO!† Cofounder, PayByPhone here. As someone pointed out, the engineering required to harden those (against thieves, vandals, weather) is impressive. Thus, the amount of money your cities, universities, airports, etc. pay up front for paystations and then annually in mandatory maintenance contracts (that's where the real money is made) ... ugh. I'm not saying our UI & UX over the years are without flaws (IVR, WML, SMS, & finally apps) but at least you're not standing in the weather or leaving your appointments to feed the beast. † Added: Actually, the best payment interaction might be no interaction but the whole always-connected-and-location-aware-car wasn't on our roadmap in 2000. The scene is ripe for change again IMO.
- lbriner 4y ago
  The apps aren't much better. I got an App error the other day so I paid cash in the machine, it turns out I had paid on the App but still got the error. Also problems setting up some of them (Have to run a number and waste 5 minutes when you just want to pay and park). My rant over software in general is that we have rushed to get features into things without investing the correct amount of time handling errors and making UX as slick as possible.
- RHSeeger 4y ago
  But this means you need to require anyone who wants to park must 1. have a smart phone of the appropriate type and 2. be comfortable installing an app (possibly one they only just now found out about and haven't had time to research). Since clearly this isn't reasonable, you'll still need to have those paystations (though less of them?)
  - emptybits 4y ago
    Nope. IVR (voice & touch tones) has always been an option. i.e. "Enter the location number on the sign. Enter how many minutes you wish to park for." We invested a lot to ensure dumbphone compatibility. Some say it's faster than an app.
JKCalhoun 4y ago
Looks like maybe it was designed by the late Syd Mead [Bladerunner concept art 1]. [1] https://i.redd.it/srztli5lbwo11.png https://i.redd.it/srztli5lbwo11.png
- perilunar 4y ago
  That's not really typical of most of his work, which is really sleek and quite beautiful (IMHO). I reckon a Mead designed a parking meter would look like a chrome robot valet. There would be no buttons.
Cockbrand 4y ago
The numbers row of the keyboard starting with "0" is a nice detail. This machine has been designed by professional sadists.
CakeEngine 4y ago
Folk are getting hung up on the keyboard layout and poor buttons, which are bad but only the start of the problems with these machines. It has two separate asynchronous screens, two sets of printed instructions (plus t&cs), more instructions on both screens, then two keypads (but with the same symbols although they're not interoperable). There is no consistent self-explanatory language for talking about the various buttons, knobs, slots and problems, and how the user's attention should flow between them. If use of this machine wasn't mandated, nobody would ever, ever touch it.
- HL33tibCe7 4y ago
  The instructions are also terrible. The text is quite small, and is in a grubby box which is hard to read, especially for those with poor sight. The signposting of the distinction between the three sets of instructions (coins vs credit/debit vs contactless) is very unclear. There are T&Cs right at the top of the machine in tiny letters that are downright impossible for people with poor sight - for those with good sight, that’s not a problem, we ignore them anyway, but how does someone with poor sight know they don’t need to read them? What are “controlled hours”? It’s a total shitshow without even starting on the tech. Why is there an on-off button? Why is there a double flag button? Why is there a rotating button? Why is the wheelchair button not mentioned anywhere in the instructions?
- mattbee 4y ago
  And this particular model is so slow. Every button press takes the screen 1-2 seconds to react, that's assuming you're looking at the right one. Quite often the card reader isn't working and it takes about 90s to timeout; always relaxing when there's a queue forming.
malux85 4y ago
A committee
jagger27 4y ago
I love this little app used in Ottawa called PayByPhone. It saves your plate and uses GPS to find the closest parking meter code. It’s much more elegant than using these clumsy machines, and it’s paperless since the meter maids just scan your plate anyway.
- deergomoo 4y ago
  We have that one in the UK too, as well as a couple of others (RingGo etc). A few are pretty mediocre as apps but get the job done, but some are genuinely pretty good, with notifications when your time is almost up.
gmueckl 4y ago
I was going to write that these machines are easy to use and the interface is logical. But then I looked at the instructions and realized that the operator requires that the license plate should be entered as a first step. The rest of the interface flows from that IMO stupid requirement (alphanumeric keypad, long usage instructions). However, there is still an obvious main display and main keypad that you start the process on. The separate display and numeric keyboard unit is obviously part of the card reader that you only need to interact with if you want to pay with a card. Its presence as an entirely isolated unit within the machine is mandated by payment processors. It is a separately certified secure enclave that shields the card payment authorization process from the rest of the system so your information, most importantly your PIN, can't leak. The text on the machine is actually well structured: T&C glued on at the very top. The usage instructions are in the wide top window. The smaller window to the side details the parking fees.
- Nextgrid 4y ago
  > Its presence as an entirely isolated unit within the machine is mandated by payment processors. It is a separately certified secure enclave that shields the card payment authorization process from the rest of the system so your information, most importantly your PIN, can't leak. There's absolutely a way to get (non-sensitive) display output out of it so they can reuse the main screen for display at least (fast food self-checkout machines do this in my area - the status display from the card terminal is replicated on the main screen during the payment process).
- benhurmarcel 4y ago
  They need the license plate because they control for illegally parked cars and send fines by scanning plates with image recognition. I don't see another way to achieve that.
tomphoolery 4y ago
same energy: self checkout machines at the grocery store
- aulin 4y ago
  Not sure how widespread it is, but here (italy) we have little barcode scanners where you just scan each item you're buying and put it in the cart. At checkout you scan a qr code, gives you a total, pay with contactless card and you're done. It's a pleasure to use. And you also have a display with the updated list and subtotal of everything you're buying.
elric 4y ago
The real evil part is that you're required to enter your license plate. Because heaven forbid that you pay for a parking spot, leave early, and someone else uses the 5 extra minutes that you'd already paid for. I suspect the license plates are stored and sold (in hashed form if we're at all lucky) so some adtech company can use it as another datapoint in their quest for eyeballs.
- aulin 4y ago
  Before these there used to be street vendors that would storm to anyone getting out a park to get the partially used ticket, they would then try to gift them to new parkers in exchange for a tip. It was quite annoying but entering the license plate and generally using these things is way worse.
6510 4y ago
It's some kind of altar? I work at the railroads, some traveler needed a ticket but couldn't figure out the machine. I couldn't figure it out either as I never use it. I gather other railroad employees and no one could make sense of it. We eventually just wrote them a paper ticket (intended for when the machines are broken) It must have been a week later when it struck me the thing must have been out of ticket paper and just hid all the functionality. The remaining functions were for putting a trip on a kind of credit card that more frequent travelers use but as such card was not inserted the menus were "limited" to a forest of various kinds of discount cards and alternative means of travel like adding a metro or bus trip.
BrianOnHN 4y ago
Every time I pay Park Mobile $5/hour for beach parking, it logs me out and wastes 15min of my time dealing with BS. The current parking situation is an obvious microcosm of the rent-seeking-complex/delirium that's, imho, one of the biggest issues we as a society face.
dmje 4y ago
We've watched our local (seaside town) carparks turn to an absolute shit show with the arrival of these. Before: insert money, get ticket. Now: type registration number (on non qwerty keyboard), lots of to-ing and fro-ing as person / spouse tries to remember registration number; hop between totally non intuitive set of screens trying to figure out how to pay; ticket eventually drops out through badly designed slot and is blown away on the sea breeze. Meanwhile: ad companies presumably hoover up registration marketing data and sell it on. What also drives me nuts is the "soft" element that has been removed. In the old days you bought a space and then had that nice interaction with other people if you left early when you could give them your ticket. Not only is this new approach profit maximisation at the expense of ease of use, it's also profit maximisation at the expense of social contact. Legally, I'd be interested to know if anyone's done the work on what renting a space looks like. I mean, I've paid for that space for one hour so if I leave after half an hour, don't I have a say over giving my ticket to a random...?
- mdp2021 4y ago
  > Meanwhile: ad companies presumably hoover up registration marketing data and sell it on Under which legal agreement? "If you park, then you agree"? _Parking_ as a sufficient condition?
  - hansvm 4y ago
    Under the legal agreement that most people can't be arsed to sue every mom and pop oligopoly exploiting their personal data.
    - mdp2021 4y ago
      > most people can't be arsed to sue Now let us review why a "society" should make sense, and if some agents become a collective affront to natural rights the action should be collective. In this case (and more), the apparent agent is the municipality - which shows the perversion of these days.
- Macha 4y ago
  I'm sure legally it specifies the use of the space is non-transferable and it's just as legally defensible as rules against subletting tenancies.
mdp2021 4y ago
I did meet those monsters. This friend of mine, * used violence against the one he used when he saw at the end of the process the message "communicating with server...", thinking "You are centrally logging the presence of my car here at this time? Who gave you permission?" * and before that, during the operation, he had to note that the keys were capacitive: because in the middle of the pandemic, he was using thick paper cloth and other buffer to operate the keyboard, and it just would not work. And of course, those monsters, apparently planned to require "contact" for operation (everybody touching the same surface), were installed in the middle of the pandemic. He resolved, as it may be expected, never again to park near the center of his hometown.
staplung 4y ago
These machines are pretty good...if you think of them as clocks with a bunch of useless buttons. As a social experiment they should try to maximize frustration by randomizing the keyboard layout and implementing ELIZA as the user interface. > Hello, I am Eliza. * I'd like to pay for parking > Don't you ever say Hello? * I just want to pay for parking > Come, come, elucidate your thoughts.
grokx 4y ago
I worked as a contractor at Parkeon/Flowbird, on the next version. IIRC, this one is called N² and runs a headless Android on a limited hardware, which explains the slowness of this thing. The next version (called streetsmart) on which I worked 2 years ago is a real mess. It is based on Android 5.1 (Android 8 or 9 was available when the project started), and features a touch screen. There is absolutely no isolation between ticketing apps and maintenance apps (which allow among other things to withdraw the cash). A custom launcher gives access to one set of apps or another, depending on the current mode. An hardware token and a gesture allow agents to switch from vending mode to maintenance mode, but if one gains access to a shell, one just has to send particular intents to access to maintenance apps. Some anecdotes: - We shipped debug Android builds for internal testing (with root, adb enabled, etc) which somehow got sent to the customer, deployed on a public network and got infected by crypto miners. That triggered overheat of the CPU and reboots of the devices. - Those are supposed to be deployed in Barcelona, I don't know if it's actually in production right now. - Those were supposed to be deployed in NYC, but the deal got cancelled (not really a surprise to me). - They run on a 12v car battery and a solar cell. I had a partial machine to dev (with no solar part), and I had to buy a car battery charger to power the battery. The work itself was rather interesting (have you ever worked on a Android device that has a built-in printer and a cash machine?), but project management, collaboration between teams and vision were terrible. The main board seemed really well designed also.
- Someone 4y ago
  > runs a headless Android on a limited hardware, which explains the slowness of this thing. Does it? Must be very limited hardware, then. I haven’t even ever seen one of those, but I would think a parking meter UI wouldn’t be particularly taxing on hardware.
  - grokx 4y ago
    It's just that Android might be too much "heavy" for the actual hardware. I don't have any details, sorry. That's what I heard when I was working there.
- atonse 4y ago
foreigner 4y ago
I actually find them to have an uplifting message: "Change is possible!"
cameronh90 4y ago
A lot of car parks here have switched to RingGo, but for some reason I just can't get it to work on my phone. The verification SMS simply never comes though. I've tried calling them, and the customer service can't help, my phone provider can't help, and I've tried using other SIMs, changed my phone and it still doesn't work. I just rely on my girlfriend's phone where it does work. It's an interesting case of the government forcing a dependency on private companies with no recourse if things don't go as planned.

83 points by HL33tibCe7 4y ago

The Bart machine is horrible as well

I feel like you don't get to piss all over the design if you've never built a physical interface that has to be weatherproof on an exposed device that holds money.

frereubu 4y ago
This isn't about security or being weatherproof. This is about basics, like using a QWERTY keyboard that everyone's familiar with, and clear instructions that are easy to follow. I work in tech and each time I see one of these I'm glad I can pay by smartphone.
- sofixa 4y ago
  QWERTY isn't the official worldwide standard. These machines are also used in France, where AZERTY is the (imho terrible) norm.
  - Nextgrid 4y ago
    However the 3-row layout is mostly the same everywhere so it would just be a matter of swapping plastic overlays & keymaps in software.
  - frereubu 4y ago
    This machine is in the UK.
    - dazc 4y ago
      Obviously, where else would you find such pettiness? Relying upon a machine that is so complex and frustrating to use far outweighs the tiny loss of revenue for when people pass on unused parking time to someone else.
  - bin_bash 4y ago
    ok but no layout puts the "0" as the first digit
    - bmacho 4y ago
      TIL that no layouts put 0 as first digit. Not US, UK, FR, German or so. Somehow I thought the opposite, I was sure that my layout (Hungarian[1]) is about the same as every other, most probably a direct copy of the German, but nah. [1]: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=hungarian+keyboard+layout&iar=images https://duckduckgo.com/?q=hungarian+keyboard+layout&iar=imag...
      - layer8 4y ago
        Earlier typewriters didn’t have 0 and 1 keys [1] and instead the O and l keys did double duty. When 0 and 1 keys were finally added on typewriters, there probably wasn’t enough space to add them both on the left side. The fact that the previously used O key is to the right may also have been a factor. [1] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/88/Olivetti_Lettera_22_by_LjL.jpeg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/88/Olivetti...
  - xmodem 4y ago
    is it not possible to re-configure the machine to match the market it's going to?
- grokx 4y ago
  I worked for a while as a contractor for Parkeon/Flowbird, and asked about the keyboard layout to a hardware manager there. His explanation was that they did not use AZERTY or QWERTY because it wouldn't work for foreigners.
cookie_monsta 4y ago
I feel like every interface designer should be forced to watch, clockwork orange-style as uninitiated users attempt to navigate their creations before they are unleashed on the public.
- tobr 4y ago
  We already do, it’s called user testing.
  - jen20 4y ago
    Well then why don’t you fix them after said testing? There is literally no excuse for taking over a second to respond to a button press. A ZX Spectrum would be more responsive than most of these stupid machines.
  - BeFlatXIII 4y ago
    Then do more and fix the problems.
adhesive_wombat 4y ago
Also it must last for, say, 15 years, be installable by road workers, and deal with abuse from not only the theives, but also vandals and construction workers repairing the road and pavement nearby.
- amelius 4y ago
  I'd say it's still super easy to vandalize though, by just squeezing a tube of superglue into e.g. the card slot, making sure one isn't caught on CCTV of course.
  - adhesive_wombat 4y ago
    Luckily, most vandalism doesn't appear to be committed by people with the intelligence to cause real damage, they just spray paint their initials on it, try to set the metal box on fire or scratch or dent the case. There's only so much one can do to defend a 1mm slot that has to accept a plastic card (ditto for coin slots).
- noirbot 4y ago
  That's part of the issue though, isn't it? Someone paints over the keyboard and you have no idea where anything is because it's not a normal layout for a keyboard. If it was QWERTY and then a numpad, some people would be able to use it blindly, or pull up their phone to check positions.
  - adhesive_wombat 4y ago
    Like I said above, it's probably an idea that an alphabetical layout is somewhat familiar to everyone, but a QWERTY layout is only familiar to people who type. Not that long ago, fewer people than you might expect were familiar with QWERTY keyboards (no smartphones before about 2006). These machines are also for use by people who have never used a computer or smartphone, and, incurring the elderly people that councils have to consider, they exist. I'm guessing at their reasoning, but "everyone knows QWERTY" is probably not as true as you think, or if it is, it hasn't been so for that long. It could also be an international company that doesn't want to have SKUs for the keypad for every region (eg France uses AZERTY).
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
rwmj 4y ago
It needs to be vandalproof because every time I use one I feel the need to hit the stupid thing. Luckily I'm pretty mild-mannered, but I'm sure many are not.

nairboon 4y ago

What is the issue here?

Nextgrid 4y ago
At first glance, the keyboard layout? The QWERTY layout has been around for much longer than this machine, so why not use it? The screen is barely readable too. I'm sure the software is equally terrible and slow as hell.
- padjo 4y ago
  We have similar machines here and the input is extremely unreliable and laggy, I.e buttons work maybe 30% of the time and it takes about a second to perform an action. I’m sure you can imagine how frustrating that is to use the first few times.
  - noirbot 4y ago
    Yea, this is, in some ways, the biggest UX issue, though something the designer likely had no control over. These machines are just unbearably slow, and I have no idea why. It seems crazy that something like typing in your plate number would take most of a second per character, which is made even worse by a lack of feedback if the button press was accepted, so you often double-type, which leads to corrections, which also take forever.
    - Nextgrid 4y ago
      I think the problem is that the implementation of the system is outsourced to companies who have more expertise navigating government bureaucracy than actually building good software. All the money gets spent on papers and endless meetings (and maybe passed under the table if not outright handed over if in a jurisdiction where corruption aka "lobbying" is legal) so there isn't much left to pay to attract & retain good talent. A few months/years down the line, even the sub-par talent working on it will probably realize how terrible their product is, but speaking up would be akin to admitting defeat (and might have career risks), so nobody says anything and congratulates themselves for having "delivered" the project. When the end client receives the deliverable the same situation applies, it's too late to backpedal even though the product is shit, so they also keep quiet and pretend like it is fine.

tsukurimashou 4y ago

It's a French company (Parkeon, now known as Flowbird) that historically made mechanical parking meters. I worked there for a while, if you think this version is bad you should see the "next gen" tactile one!

dennis_jeeves1 4y ago
Should we hang you for following orders? lol, It's a joke

smitty1e 4y ago

And don't get me started on the 75 phone apps of dodgy vintage.

arrakis2021 4y ago

The Guvment

lqet 4y ago

Ha, I was in Italy last year and literally tried to get a parking ticket from one of those machines for 10 minutes, without success. The only instructions were some words in Italian, which I vaguely translated as "enter the number". The number of the parking space? Nope. Maybe the number of hours? Nope. Maybe the time until I want the space? Nope. Maybe the amount of cash it should take from my credit card? Nope. Maybe it was stuck in a previous transaction and the "number" was the PIN? Maybe the machine was in some kind of admin maintenance mode and was expecting a password? Nope, the next machine asked for the same "number". Maybe all the machines were broken? Nope, there were cars with a ticket behind the front window. I talked to another group of tourists with exactly the same problem, but 7 people were not enough brainpower to figure the machine out. While I finally walked back to car to tell the family in shame that I was, indeed, not able to use a ticket machine successfully, it suddenly hit me: the machine expects the license plate number!

hackflip 4y ago
In Calgary I've used a parking machine that asked for a lot number. That is on a sign as you enter the parking lot. As if this machine could not be programmed to already know which lot of was permanently installed in.
flemhans 4y ago
That was my first thought when I read your comment. That "number" referred to the license plate. (In my language, license plates are called number plates.)
mdp2021 4y ago
I believe that the second button in the bottom row, "flags icons", should be the language. But honestly, after reading the post I thought I would just glance at the picture and see clear indications for "change language" instructions, the same way a proofreader takes moments to find what the writer will just not see until pointed. Instead, it did take me an unexpected amount of time, and I still feel that option as well concealed.

emptybits 4y ago

About 22 years ago, we began doing our best to obsolete those things. To the degree you want to pay for parking, lol, the preferred device has long been in your pocket IMO!† Cofounder, PayByPhone here. As someone pointed out, the engineering required to harden those (against thieves, vandals, weather) is impressive. Thus, the amount of money your cities, universities, airports, etc. pay up front for paystations and then annually in mandatory maintenance contracts (that's where the real money is made) ... ugh. I'm not saying our UI & UX over the years are without flaws (IVR, WML, SMS, & finally apps) but at least you're not standing in the weather or leaving your appointments to feed the beast. † Added: Actually, the best payment interaction might be no interaction but the whole always-connected-and-location-aware-car wasn't on our roadmap in 2000. The scene is ripe for change again IMO.

lbriner 4y ago
The apps aren't much better. I got an App error the other day so I paid cash in the machine, it turns out I had paid on the App but still got the error. Also problems setting up some of them (Have to run a number and waste 5 minutes when you just want to pay and park). My rant over software in general is that we have rushed to get features into things without investing the correct amount of time handling errors and making UX as slick as possible.
RHSeeger 4y ago
But this means you need to require anyone who wants to park must 1. have a smart phone of the appropriate type and 2. be comfortable installing an app (possibly one they only just now found out about and haven't had time to research). Since clearly this isn't reasonable, you'll still need to have those paystations (though less of them?)
- emptybits 4y ago
  Nope. IVR (voice & touch tones) has always been an option. i.e. "Enter the location number on the sign. Enter how many minutes you wish to park for." We invested a lot to ensure dumbphone compatibility. Some say it's faster than an app.

JKCalhoun 4y ago

Looks like maybe it was designed by the late Syd Mead [Bladerunner concept art 1]. [1] https://i.redd.it/srztli5lbwo11.png https://i.redd.it/srztli5lbwo11.png

perilunar 4y ago
That's not really typical of most of his work, which is really sleek and quite beautiful (IMHO). I reckon a Mead designed a parking meter would look like a chrome robot valet. There would be no buttons.

Cockbrand 4y ago

The numbers row of the keyboard starting with "0" is a nice detail. This machine has been designed by professional sadists.

CakeEngine 4y ago

Folk are getting hung up on the keyboard layout and poor buttons, which are bad but only the start of the problems with these machines. It has two separate asynchronous screens, two sets of printed instructions (plus t&cs), more instructions on both screens, then two keypads (but with the same symbols although they're not interoperable). There is no consistent self-explanatory language for talking about the various buttons, knobs, slots and problems, and how the user's attention should flow between them. If use of this machine wasn't mandated, nobody would ever, ever touch it.

HL33tibCe7 4y ago
The instructions are also terrible. The text is quite small, and is in a grubby box which is hard to read, especially for those with poor sight. The signposting of the distinction between the three sets of instructions (coins vs credit/debit vs contactless) is very unclear. There are T&Cs right at the top of the machine in tiny letters that are downright impossible for people with poor sight - for those with good sight, that’s not a problem, we ignore them anyway, but how does someone with poor sight know they don’t need to read them? What are “controlled hours”? It’s a total shitshow without even starting on the tech. Why is there an on-off button? Why is there a double flag button? Why is there a rotating button? Why is the wheelchair button not mentioned anywhere in the instructions?
mattbee 4y ago
And this particular model is so slow. Every button press takes the screen 1-2 seconds to react, that's assuming you're looking at the right one. Quite often the card reader isn't working and it takes about 90s to timeout; always relaxing when there's a queue forming.

malux85 4y ago

A committee

jagger27 4y ago

I love this little app used in Ottawa called PayByPhone. It saves your plate and uses GPS to find the closest parking meter code. It’s much more elegant than using these clumsy machines, and it’s paperless since the meter maids just scan your plate anyway.

deergomoo 4y ago
We have that one in the UK too, as well as a couple of others (RingGo etc). A few are pretty mediocre as apps but get the job done, but some are genuinely pretty good, with notifications when your time is almost up.

gmueckl 4y ago

I was going to write that these machines are easy to use and the interface is logical. But then I looked at the instructions and realized that the operator requires that the license plate should be entered as a first step. The rest of the interface flows from that IMO stupid requirement (alphanumeric keypad, long usage instructions). However, there is still an obvious main display and main keypad that you start the process on. The separate display and numeric keyboard unit is obviously part of the card reader that you only need to interact with if you want to pay with a card. Its presence as an entirely isolated unit within the machine is mandated by payment processors. It is a separately certified secure enclave that shields the card payment authorization process from the rest of the system so your information, most importantly your PIN, can't leak. The text on the machine is actually well structured: T&C glued on at the very top. The usage instructions are in the wide top window. The smaller window to the side details the parking fees.

Nextgrid 4y ago
> Its presence as an entirely isolated unit within the machine is mandated by payment processors. It is a separately certified secure enclave that shields the card payment authorization process from the rest of the system so your information, most importantly your PIN, can't leak. There's absolutely a way to get (non-sensitive) display output out of it so they can reuse the main screen for display at least (fast food self-checkout machines do this in my area - the status display from the card terminal is replicated on the main screen during the payment process).
benhurmarcel 4y ago
They need the license plate because they control for illegally parked cars and send fines by scanning plates with image recognition. I don't see another way to achieve that.

tomphoolery 4y ago

same energy: self checkout machines at the grocery store

aulin 4y ago
Not sure how widespread it is, but here (italy) we have little barcode scanners where you just scan each item you're buying and put it in the cart. At checkout you scan a qr code, gives you a total, pay with contactless card and you're done. It's a pleasure to use. And you also have a display with the updated list and subtotal of everything you're buying.

elric 4y ago

The real evil part is that you're required to enter your license plate. Because heaven forbid that you pay for a parking spot, leave early, and someone else uses the 5 extra minutes that you'd already paid for. I suspect the license plates are stored and sold (in hashed form if we're at all lucky) so some adtech company can use it as another datapoint in their quest for eyeballs.

aulin 4y ago
Before these there used to be street vendors that would storm to anyone getting out a park to get the partially used ticket, they would then try to gift them to new parkers in exchange for a tip. It was quite annoying but entering the license plate and generally using these things is way worse.

6510 4y ago

It's some kind of altar? I work at the railroads, some traveler needed a ticket but couldn't figure out the machine. I couldn't figure it out either as I never use it. I gather other railroad employees and no one could make sense of it. We eventually just wrote them a paper ticket (intended for when the machines are broken) It must have been a week later when it struck me the thing must have been out of ticket paper and just hid all the functionality. The remaining functions were for putting a trip on a kind of credit card that more frequent travelers use but as such card was not inserted the menus were "limited" to a forest of various kinds of discount cards and alternative means of travel like adding a metro or bus trip.

BrianOnHN 4y ago

Every time I pay Park Mobile $5/hour for beach parking, it logs me out and wastes 15min of my time dealing with BS. The current parking situation is an obvious microcosm of the rent-seeking-complex/delirium that's, imho, one of the biggest issues we as a society face.

dmje 4y ago

We've watched our local (seaside town) carparks turn to an absolute shit show with the arrival of these. Before: insert money, get ticket. Now: type registration number (on non qwerty keyboard), lots of to-ing and fro-ing as person / spouse tries to remember registration number; hop between totally non intuitive set of screens trying to figure out how to pay; ticket eventually drops out through badly designed slot and is blown away on the sea breeze. Meanwhile: ad companies presumably hoover up registration marketing data and sell it on. What also drives me nuts is the "soft" element that has been removed. In the old days you bought a space and then had that nice interaction with other people if you left early when you could give them your ticket. Not only is this new approach profit maximisation at the expense of ease of use, it's also profit maximisation at the expense of social contact. Legally, I'd be interested to know if anyone's done the work on what renting a space looks like. I mean, I've paid for that space for one hour so if I leave after half an hour, don't I have a say over giving my ticket to a random...?

mdp2021 4y ago
> Meanwhile: ad companies presumably hoover up registration marketing data and sell it on Under which legal agreement? "If you park, then you agree"? _Parking_ as a sufficient condition?
- hansvm 4y ago
  Under the legal agreement that most people can't be arsed to sue every mom and pop oligopoly exploiting their personal data.
  - mdp2021 4y ago
    > most people can't be arsed to sue Now let us review why a "society" should make sense, and if some agents become a collective affront to natural rights the action should be collective. In this case (and more), the apparent agent is the municipality - which shows the perversion of these days.
Macha 4y ago
I'm sure legally it specifies the use of the space is non-transferable and it's just as legally defensible as rules against subletting tenancies.

mdp2021 4y ago

I did meet those monsters. This friend of mine, * used violence against the one he used when he saw at the end of the process the message "communicating with server...", thinking "You are centrally logging the presence of my car here at this time? Who gave you permission?" * and before that, during the operation, he had to note that the keys were capacitive: because in the middle of the pandemic, he was using thick paper cloth and other buffer to operate the keyboard, and it just would not work. And of course, those monsters, apparently planned to require "contact" for operation (everybody touching the same surface), were installed in the middle of the pandemic. He resolved, as it may be expected, never again to park near the center of his hometown.

staplung 4y ago

These machines are pretty good...if you think of them as clocks with a bunch of useless buttons. As a social experiment they should try to maximize frustration by randomizing the keyboard layout and implementing ELIZA as the user interface. > Hello, I am Eliza. * I'd like to pay for parking > Don't you ever say Hello? * I just want to pay for parking > Come, come, elucidate your thoughts.

grokx 4y ago

I worked as a contractor at Parkeon/Flowbird, on the next version. IIRC, this one is called N² and runs a headless Android on a limited hardware, which explains the slowness of this thing. The next version (called streetsmart) on which I worked 2 years ago is a real mess. It is based on Android 5.1 (Android 8 or 9 was available when the project started), and features a touch screen. There is absolutely no isolation between ticketing apps and maintenance apps (which allow among other things to withdraw the cash). A custom launcher gives access to one set of apps or another, depending on the current mode. An hardware token and a gesture allow agents to switch from vending mode to maintenance mode, but if one gains access to a shell, one just has to send particular intents to access to maintenance apps. Some anecdotes: - We shipped debug Android builds for internal testing (with root, adb enabled, etc) which somehow got sent to the customer, deployed on a public network and got infected by crypto miners. That triggered overheat of the CPU and reboots of the devices. - Those are supposed to be deployed in Barcelona, I don't know if it's actually in production right now. - Those were supposed to be deployed in NYC, but the deal got cancelled (not really a surprise to me). - They run on a 12v car battery and a solar cell. I had a partial machine to dev (with no solar part), and I had to buy a car battery charger to power the battery. The work itself was rather interesting (have you ever worked on a Android device that has a built-in printer and a cash machine?), but project management, collaboration between teams and vision were terrible. The main board seemed really well designed also.

Someone 4y ago
> runs a headless Android on a limited hardware, which explains the slowness of this thing. Does it? Must be very limited hardware, then. I haven’t even ever seen one of those, but I would think a parking meter UI wouldn’t be particularly taxing on hardware.
- grokx 4y ago
  It's just that Android might be too much "heavy" for the actual hardware. I don't have any details, sorry. That's what I heard when I was working there.
atonse 4y ago

foreigner 4y ago

I actually find them to have an uplifting message: "Change is possible!"

cameronh90 4y ago

A lot of car parks here have switched to RingGo, but for some reason I just can't get it to work on my phone. The verification SMS simply never comes though. I've tried calling them, and the customer service can't help, my phone provider can't help, and I've tried using other SIMs, changed my phone and it still doesn't work. I just rely on my girlfriend's phone where it does work. It's an interesting case of the government forcing a dependency on private companies with no recourse if things don't go as planned.