12 ms·

Another day, another Casey post dunking on my team. Hi! This tweet misses the mark only a little bit; in a previous blog post, we apologized[1] pretty frankly

Another day, another Casey post dunking on my team. Hi! This tweet misses the mark only a little bit; in a previous blog post, we apologized[1] pretty frankly to everyone involved in this discussion. I'll admit that we didn't list him by name, but neither did we list the other handful of folks involved. We should have. In turn, Casey rightly did not acknowledge it except to tell his followers that it was not a real apology[2]. This blog post is matter-of-fact, but Casey is right. However, he said himself that it was trivial to do this. Is it not acceptable that we use the same language? Casey, I'm sorry. We made a mistake. I made a mistake! We didn't know what we didn't know, and thought we were clever enough to pass for it. Using a texture atlas was a great idea, and we didn't know about it until you told us. We should do better to credit you. [1]: https://devblogs.microsoft.com/commandline/windows-terminal-preview-1-13-release/#new-rendering-engine https://devblogs.microsoft.com/commandline/windows-terminal-... (scroll down under the image) [2]: https://twitter.com/cmuratori/status/1489406091318349826 https://twitter.com/cmuratori/status/1489406091318349826 -- (Note: I've iteratively edited this post, as it was originally a one-sentence diatribe written in anger. I originally asked, "I just don't know what else he's asking for here. Credit? Us to die screaming?" It was not a good look. It also originally contained "I get it, Microsoft sucks, we should all be fired, rah rah rah." As the message evolved, that became more and more out-of-place.)

dangerface 4y ago
> Is it not acceptable that we use the same language? Good question why insult him for his use if you feel its appropriate language?
indy 4y ago
A good apology has three parts: 1. I'm sorry 2. It was my fault 3. How do I make it right?
- chii 4y ago
  They skipped straight to the 3rd step, without doing the first 2.
TrueTom 4y ago
It seems you have posted the wrong link because there isn't really an apology?
- doix 4y ago
  > We were wrong. As such, we dedicate this experimental renderer to the community as an olive branch. We know we have so much more to learn, but we hope that you will accept our apology and understand we’re humans behind this product with a capability and willingness to learn from our past mistakes. What more really needs to be said? Feels like one of those times where if everyone just sat around at a pub with a beer, everything would be resolved. Instead it's just little snide remarks back and forth. It's a shame, I really like Casey, and he was definitely right, but it's probably time to move on.
  - TrueTom 4y ago
    I'm being facetious here. As far as apologies go that's a pretty weak attempt.
    - doix 4y ago
      Heh, my bad! This is the problem with text based conversation between strangers :).
      - TrueTom 4y ago
        It was dumb and passive-aggressive comment (by me) so every kind of response is fair game, I guess... :)
      - mannykannot 4y ago
        I doubt this would have gone any better face-to-face. In a text-based conversation you at least have the opportunity to reflect before you reply.
  - time_to_smile 4y ago
    > What more really needs to be said? Well if I were to write an apology "frankly to <person>" I would probably mention <person> by name in the apology.
ddalex 4y ago
> except to note that it was not an apology at all. Ctrl-F there doesn't show a single "sorry" in the text. Or "Casey" for that matter. Why is it so difficult to say: "Casey, we are sorry, you were right and we were mistaken.". Instead there is a nebulous ~extended a branch to community and hope to accept our apology~ (paraphrasing) without offering an apology in the first place.
- sirbranedamuj 4y ago
  try looking for the word "apology" edit: > We know we have so much more to learn, but we hope that you will accept our apology and understand we’re humans behind this product with a capability and willingness to learn from our past mistakes. If someone said that to me, I would say "oh ok, no problem dude" and move on with my life. Not even defending the microsoft guy, I have zero skin in the game and couldn't care less. but people being weirdly pedantic about which words do and do not constitute an apology just because the source is Evil Microsoft Guy.
  - ghusbands 4y ago
    Except "but we hope you will accept our apology" is not an apology. If they'd written "but we hope you will accept our apologies", it would have been an overly formal apology. In the informal tone they are otherwise using, saying "sorry" would have been most appropriate.
  - Longhanks 4y ago
    Sticking the word "apology" on a letter does not make it an apology.
    - NikolaNovak 4y ago
      But sticking "Sorry" does? Your whole post was Ctrl-F for a keyword, while refusing a synonym.
      - ddalex 4y ago
mns 4y ago
Wow, that's sure a weird way to post something on behalf of your company. Curious how long will it take to delete this message, seeing how it was written mostly in the heat of the moment.
rkachowski 4y ago
I understand issues are always more complicated than at first glance, but your tone doesn't exactly invite sympathy for yourself or your team.
shakabrah 4y ago
Typically, when apologizing, you should name the person you are apologizing to. Otherwise, they might do something like not acknowledge your apology.
- protomyth 4y ago
  Yep, Naming the person and linking to the "kerfuffle" inline that you created would be minimum to consider that post an apology. Calling it a "kerfuffle" is odd phrasing that downplays the actions.
candiddevmike 4y ago
> We get it, Microsoft sucks, we should all be fired, rah rah rah. This response shows how little you value users feedback (and how unafraid of them you are). Probably should leave this kind of thing to your developer relations team...
- Humdeee 4y ago
  Yep, that part just seemed so condescendingly dismissive.
eric_b 4y ago
This kind of tone really doesn't engender sympathy: > We get it, Microsoft sucks, we should all be fired, rah rah rah. > I just don't know what else he's asking for here. Credit? Us to die screaming? The blog post is matter-of-fact, and Casey is right: however, he said himself that it was trivial to do this. Is it not acceptable that we use the same language? Your "apology" really is anything but. If anything you and your team come off as combative, thin skinned and hostile to outsiders. But, you do you bro.
- grepfru_it 4y ago
  This is Microsoft culture spilling into the real world. There were several times when I pointed out a fix for a flaw or problem we were suffering from and was mocked and told it’s a silly idea that I shouldn’t be wasting time on. Fast forward 1-3 months later and that same person is singing the praises for the same idea someone else “came up with”. Except it was me shopping my idea around. Seeing the tweet and the thread makes me realize this is systemic to MSFT as an org (who now is the champion and host for all major open source organizations)
  - user3939382 4y ago
    Cut scene to me explaining my new product to a Google VP (hoping to get funding) who instead made a crappy copy and released it 6 months later. Don't meet your heroes.
    - meheleventyone 4y ago
      This really is every org, even if someone starts lukewarm to an idea it can percolate, get established and then come back out again as a fresh opinion without any malice intended. It’s always fun to get your own ideas back almost verbatim.
      - user3939382 4y ago
        To clarify I didn’t work for Google
ghusbands 4y ago
That's not an apology, as written. You say you did something wrong and say "we hope that you will accept our apology", having not actually given one. Maybe English isn't your first language, and so you don't know the difference between "accept our apologies" (which is a formal/distant apology) and "accept our apology" (which refers to a previous apology). Also, good apologies come with admission of fault and steps you'll take to make sure you don't make the same mistake again.
- jackbravo 4y ago
  I did see admission of fault: > We were wrong. As such, we dedicate this experimental renderer to the community as an olive branch. We know we have so much more to learn, but we hope that you will accept our apology and understand we’re humans behind this product with a capability and willingness to learn from our past mistakes.
- meheleventyone 4y ago
  Whilst not hitting all the grammar notes “we hope that you will accept our apology” is quite normal colloquially.
HL33tibCe7 4y ago
I’m kind of in awe by the unprofessionalism of this response. In an era of incessant corporate PR, it’s somewhat refreshing lol.
- curiousgal 4y ago
  Chastising devs who address issues directly is a great way to make sure canned PR responses is all we get.
  - NikolaNovak 4y ago
    Exactly. And it'll be these same exact people who will complain about canned PR responses :->
    - ddalex 4y ago
      And we should not accept rudeness and unprofessionalism just to avoid canned PR responses People should learn to express themselves professionally and keep up the standards, on the professional communities, this is not /b/
  - Aeolun 4y ago
    Adressing issues directly in the wrong way is a much better motivation for PR teams to jump in.
  - robertlagrant 4y ago
    No, devs giving bad responses is what creates PR jobs.
drumhead 4y ago
You're not doing your company any credit here......
curiousgal 4y ago
It's so ironic that people are criticizing this comment and the linked apology for their language but fail to see that the original issue was caused by Casey's language and not the actual technical details.
- philipwhiuk 4y ago
  No the original issue was the Microsoft team not understand their own code and then claiming you needed a PhD to use a different renderer.
RL_Quine 4y ago
Your tone is way, way off.
time_to_smile 4y ago
I'm impressed you could write this without the self-awareness to realize this only makes your team look worse. The idea that vaguely saying sorry to an abstract community should resolve this entire issue is repulsive. Merely stating an apology does not thereby grant you forgiveness. I had a neighbor who once tore up my yard doing construction. They apologized profusely, but outside of words never made any meaningful recompense. If I complain about the damage am I in the wrong simply because he utter some words of apology? The tone here sounds like you're more annoyed that Casey was right and wish you could go back to feeling clever.
warent 4y ago
> I just don't know what else he's asking for here. Credit? Us to die screaming? ... We get it, Microsoft sucks, we should all be fired, rah rah rah. Someone is upset and venting. This comment comes across to me as "Ugh we already said the right words. Their distress is so inconvenient to me, why isn't it stopping?" EDIT: Typically in this community we denote when a comment has been edited to change a critical piece of the message... I'm detecting very little genuine authentic empathy
- Longhanks 4y ago
  It's already been edited twice. The original message ended with the snarky "we should all be fired, rah rah" thing. They're already on damage control.
- _lqaf 4y ago
  > I'm detecting very little genuine authentic empathy Welcome to Microsoft!
- markus_zhang 4y ago
  Everyone can rant. I think it's fine, at least a lot better than a faked smile.
  - ineedasername 4y ago
    A fake smile at least tells me they know that a different response would be unprofessional, rather than making the an unprofessional comment and not being self aware enough to realize it until it's pointed out.
    - markus_zhang 4y ago
      Since this is not a professional place I think it's OK. I mean if Casey can rant then he should be able too. Of course I guess it doesn't look good and I'm fine with that.
      - 4y ago
lemper 4y ago
Aight, bud. When I was a kid, my parents taught me how to apologise. first, I have to acknowledge what I did wrong. Then, I have to actually say the word ('sorry', if you don't know) to the person I wronged. finally, I need to offer some way forward. don't know how your team works, but I hope at least you (as a team) are mature enough to actually apologise in a clear cut manner.
- colinmhayes 4y ago
  They acknowledged what they did wrong. They said "we hope you accept our apology" which, according to what I was taught, is a replacement for "sorry." They offered the renderer as a gift I guess, and they did a mini post mortem and talked about what they learned. Really seems like you're reaching for straws here.
tut-urut-utut 4y ago
When I read your tone here, I don't even need to read your “apology” to know that it was not a real apology. No, Microsoft doesn't suck. It's a great company. It's some people there that suck, and one just got self-identified.
dmitriid 4y ago
- You and lhecker insulted Casey Muratori - You insisted this was a "doctoral research" (your words) and that he was "misguided" (Leonard's words) - When it turned out he was right, you posted a non-apology (you didn't even name the person you were apologizing to) - A year later Leonard who claimed it was so hard now writes a blog post that "solution is trivial" and was "suggested by a community member". Once again failing to acknowledge the person who gave you this trivial solution What more you could've done? What do you think?
- green_biri 4y ago
  > - You and lhecker insulted Casey Muratori And Casey didn't? Please take into consideration that Casey's definition of the solution as "simple" can sound quite insulting as well. If someone stated that something is "simple" with an overtone of "are you blind", instead of showing more humility, I would feel insulted too.
  - dmitriid 4y ago
    > Please take into consideration that Casey's definition of the solution as "simple" can sound quite insulting as well. It can sound insulting only to people who originally claimed that what Casey suggested requires "doctoral level research into performance". Only to then implement exactly what he suggested. > If someone stated that something is "simple" with an overtone of "are you blind", instead of showing more humility Please re-read the original GitHub issue from the start: https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/issues/10362 https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/issues/10362 He is there trying to understand an issue, providing suggestions etc. And generally being baffled how a modern terminal on a modern machine can output text at something like 5 frames per second. After that Windows Terminal team barges in with "what you’re doing is describing something that might be considered an entire doctoral research project in performant terminal emulation" to... only do exactly that later. And what Casey said was going to be simple is this: https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/issues/10362#issuecomment-862822530 https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/issues/10362#issuecomm... Tell me how this is insulting to anyone except the people who now claim that "oh we'd been aware about this approach before Casey opened the issue"?
yowlingcat 4y ago
> I get it, Microsoft sucks, we should all be fired, rah rah rah. Unironically, yes, UNLESS... - You're willing to take a serious look in the mirror (and understand that the way you reacted to the situation was defensive, passive aggressive and inflammatory rather than direct, constructive and conciliatory) - You assign credit where credit is due - You do a good faith post-mortem and come up with some way to make sure this won't happen in the future Now, if that happens, then obviously you should not be fired; if anything, you should be rewarded as handling difficult situations like this correctly tends to be the true test of one's capabilities as a professional. Unfortunately, it's high stakes, high rewards -- which also means high risks and consequences. It's not easy to say "We made a mistake. Not only that, but there's no easy 1-shot fix to undo what went wrong. Let's sit down together and discuss, and we'll listen. Then, we'll go and think about that for a while and come back to you with where we align, where we differ; and so far as where we agree, where we think we can improve. What do you say?" It may not be easy, but it's worth it. Relationships are built in the muck.
- bogwog 4y ago
  I'm all for firing these people for their disrespectful and unprofessional behavior but... being assholes and writing shitty software is on-brand for Microsoft. It'd be hypocritical of them to fire these people for this (although I guess hypocrisy is also on-brand for Microsoft, so who knows lol)
blibble 4y ago
arrogant-ms-dev 4y ago
- celdon25 4y ago
  You're not wrong but creating a new account just to pile it on isn't quite role model material on the subject either. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html > Throwaway accounts are ok for sensitive information, but please don't create accounts routinely. HN is a community—users should have an identity that others can relate to.
- pyb 4y ago
  Some say, in this thread and elsewhere, that this is representative of how many teams at MS work.
foobarian 4y ago
For what it's worth, I think it's commendable that you are engaging this externally no matter the tone, instead of the usual cowardly radio silence like most big cos. I find the this-is-not-actually-an-apology nitpicking disappointing; community should be encouraging this kind of conversation, not squashing it.
- calsy 4y ago
  They are engaging externally because the issue has gained traction in the community. I also don't think people need to be grateful because they were blessed with a response.
BaculumMeumEst 4y ago
Any response to his claim that the author of the blogpost was talking about Windows Terminal in his Discord? The license of Casey’s project would be an issue if you guys used it.
2pEXgD0fZ5cF 4y ago
> I'll admit that we didn't list him by name, but neither did we list the other handful of folks involved It's only an apology in the manner of soulless corporate jargon then. A generic statement following a personal/directed insult does not count as an apology. Edit: also the following > (Note: I've iteratively edited this post, as it was originally a one-sentence diatribe written in anger. I originally asked, "I just don't know what else he's asking for here. Credit? Us to die screaming?" It was not a good look.) I think your comment and it's different iterations demonstrated very well how you guys (still) feel about this.
NikolaNovak 4y ago
Thanks for your response; you're getting a lot of flack here, even repeated suggestions of ESL, by people who I feel have unreasonable expectation of perfection of others that I doubt they'd be able to fulfill 100% in every facet of their own life. English is indeed not my first language, but I've lived in North America for 25 years and stakeholder communication is part of my job description. "I did something wrong; please accept my apologies" to me is boiler-plate standard, sufficient, acceptable way. Your blog post goes way past that! It says "We caused the kerfuffle". Even "We were Wrong", explicitly! I for one understand your frustration and probably real question of "What else do you want from us - keel over and die?" - it's just that humanity is not an acceptable feature to show from people HN wants to hate on already. That's OK though. Their reaction here will simply mean we'll get less sincere humane posts like yours, and more corporate-sanitized meaningless PR, which I'm sure will make those very same people much happier. And yes that's a pointed /s :-)
- brothir 4y ago
  You're missing out on a lot of details. For instance, one of the team members went into Casey's discord to harass him. That was not apologized for in any way. Secondly, the apology doesn't mention Casey specifically, and it's arrogant to believe you can address everyone adequately without mentioning specific names with specific apologies for the exact errors. The apology is written almost tactically to avoid dealing with specifics. When the OP additionally started this entire thread with anger, the idea that steps have been taken forward is pretty much dead.
philipwhiuk 4y ago
> we apologized[1] Yeah, that's not an apology. That's something saying you did apologise. It doesn't look like you actually sent an apology, and you never mentioned Casey at all. If this were a security vulnerability Casey would have gotten a mention (and a Bug Bounty). I guess Microsoft don't care about credit for other stuff.
adgjlsfhk1 4y ago
Now can you get Microsoft to fix their broken implementation of FMA? (see https://github.com/MicrosoftDocs/cpp-docs/pull/3526 https://github.com/MicrosoftDocs/cpp-docs/pull/3526 for details)
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
nsxwolf 4y ago
This response, to me anyway, is worse than no response at all.
gjsman-1000 4y ago
> "(Note: I've iteratively edited this post, as it was originally a one-sentence diatribe written in anger. I originally asked, "I just don't know what else he's asking for here. Credit? Us to die screaming?" It was not a good look.)" So you stole his idea and realized a one-liner dismissal was not a "good look" for yourself, so you wrote an "apology"? It's not about him, it's about saving yourself from the blowback. This and the events documented are the closest thing to a psychopathic programmer I've ever seen.
- ripley12 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - brothir 4y ago
    This is dishonest. The issue did go the way he wanted to, it's how the team responded to it that is the issue. And how is Casey the narcissist when the OP started a pure vent post and had to backtrack it, and who should you blame for being exhausted given that?
    - ripley12 4y ago
      - brothir 4y ago
        But I'm not angry, and I have to create my first account one way or another. Am I not allowed to create my first account because I want to respond to a contentious topic? Is you saying what you're saying not just selective bias? And do you have an actual counterpoint?
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
celdon25 4y ago
Here is some extremely simple advice: If you are going to publicly lecture someone because of a technical opinion that hurt your feelings, you better yourself be a grandmaestro on the subject of tactfulness. That might work within your company if the company had a culture that includes radical candor, but these are public conversations with community members. Setting the merits of your point of view aside, your communication skills suck.
hownottowrite 4y ago
Read the thread, read the posts, read this reply... it would've been trivial to write a nice apology and move on, but instead you tripped over your own ego (twice). Well played! Should've just let it go when you had the chance.
ineedasername 4y ago
>except to tell his followers that it was not a real apology Well, it wasn't a real apology. It was "We hope you accept our apology When you apologize, you say "I am sorry [insert other words of explantion]." Then you can say "We hope..." What you did simply refers back to an apology that wasn't actually made. Considering that he was correct in saying the problem was simple, his tone was not actually combative, it accurately characterized the problem. So you belittled him & insulted him, and as you admitted you then failed to give credit where due to him & others. He has a career as well. Wouldn't it be nice for him to be able to pad his Vitae with a win on something like this? Then your initial response he was, as you said, "not a good look". The edited post is better, but still not very good.
JohnJamesRambo 4y ago
Yikes this gets worse.
vmception 4y ago
> I'll admit that we didn't list him by name, but neither did we list the other handful of folks involved. We should have. This week's blog post refers to them as a "community member" [of Microsoft]. Such a self aggrandizing term. Someone reported a bug on github. Your team dismissed them and peppered them with deflective words to pretend that the team is making a safe space for employees that don't care at all. Your edits are getting closer.
nickmancol 4y ago
I think that Seinfeld already covered this situation https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=A6nWTZF08LA https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=A6nWTZF08LA
micromacrofoot 4y ago
"I just don't know what else he's asking for here." ASK HIM We've created the most incredible communication platform in human history and no one actually talks to each other, everyone just tries to publicly snipe.
kragen 4y ago
Have you thought about not managing your team in such a way as to engender hostility from the outside world? It would be a good start to credit people outside the team for their work improving your product, instead of trying to take credit for it yourself. Writing an "apology" for taking credit for someone else's work, without naming the person who did the work, is just adding insult to injury. Actually making amends would involve giving credit, both in your apology and by adding their name to the top of the original announcement if you can still edit it.
user3939382 4y ago
> dunking on my team Translation: While I'm ostensibly apologizing please note that I'm actually the victim here, everyone please feel sorry for me and my team.
______-_-______ 4y ago
Yikes. Ego and open source do not mix well.
- sodality2 4y ago
  Ego and human interaction doesn't. Open source just exposes those clashes publicly.
bena 4y ago
In the future, when you think someone is being a fucking moron, never actually call them a fucking moron. Because if it turns out they weren't a fucking moron and you were wrong all along, you're going to look, well, like this. The way to navigate the conversation would have been something closer to this: "I thought it was already doing this, but I'll check again, maybe we misread the doc. Also there's X, Y, and Z to consider that may make what you suggest harder than it seems on the surface". That all being said, I kind of don't like anybody in this kerfluffle. I think your assessment of his character isn't terribly off the mark and now you're caught in a version of "the worst person you know actually has a point". Now, we can sit here and discuss whether his approach engendered a response in kind or not, but at some point, someone has to be the duck and let the personal slide off their backs.
- chii 4y ago
  In short, be humble, and don't assume your own position is always correct, and leave room for doubt and criticism. Seek to find why someone else would consider your position wrong - it can't hurt because if you can find proof that your position is correct this way, it only strengthens your position, and if your position turns out to be wrong, you can learn and gain experience (while thanking the people who critisized you). unfortunately, ego is what prevents this in a lot of people. Their self-worth is linked to being correct, and people pointing out that their foundational beliefs are wrong cannot be acknowledged.
Crosseye_Jack 4y ago
> Another day, another Casey post dunking on my team. Hi! > Casey rightly did not acknowledge it except to tell his followers that it was not a real apology > Casey, I'm sorry. We made a mistake. I made a mistake! We didn't know what we didn't know, and thought we were clever enough to pass for it. Your edited post starts of with the feeling that you are pissed at Casey, they are dunking on your team yet again. Then you go on to apologize to them. Jesus fucking crist mate, no post would have been better than this.
jgmmo 4y ago
Man this whole interaction really makes you guys look incompetent DHowett
nixpulvis 4y ago
Let's all just agree that computers suck and we should all just go back to churning butter for a living.
smcl 4y ago
> Another day, another Casey post dunking on my team Man, you have to take criticism better than that. Remember, we don't know anything about this other than the tweets plus these replies from you and your colleague here on HN. So the tweets honestly didn't seem to describe a particularly bad problem, the only thing that stood out to me was the fake-name-on-discord thing which is yet to be substantiated. I was willing to chalk it all up to an OSS contributor feeling ignored and ranting a little, but the feeling I have now is that there's some pettiness and bickering going both ways.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
dangerface 4y ago
> Is it not acceptable that we use the same language? Good question why insult him for his use if you feel its appropriate language? > As the message evolved, that became more and more out-of-place. The wording didn't "became more" it was inappropriate from the start and instead of acknowledging this you and lhecker have tried walking back every excuse to downplay this. You both don't think it was out of place or inappropriate you are both just upset that you got called out on it.
AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
> Using a texture atlas was a great idea, and we didn't know about it until you told us. One is forced to wonder how, in an entire team working on a terminal emulator, no one thought to use the texture atlas. I mean, that's basically how the actual physical terminals the software is emulating worked in the first place. Then, when told about the obvious implementation, the reaction was not to slap one's forehead and say "Of course, it was so obvious!", but instead to tell a decades-experience game engine developer that they didn't understand how rendering works. Mind boggling.
- digisign 4y ago
  They've bragged in the past that the team members are younger than conhost.exe. I think that about sums it up. It's not a crime to be naive, but lashing out in response is a problem, as we've seen.
phendrenad2 4y ago
Okay look, you've probably stopped reading comments at this point and have thrown your Hacker News password into the ocean. But just in case you haven't, here's how to fix this: Just go away. You're clearly not sorry at all, so the best thing you can do, for your own sake, is to stop trying to fool everyone into thinking that you're sorry. We're too smart for that. Just go radio silent and have someone else do PR for your team from now on. In a few years everyone will have forgotten about this incident, and you can start posting again.
aj 4y ago
Really cool apology! I wonder why you're choosing this hill to die on with this tone. Belligerence in the original post is what led to this and you're continuing with the same tone. You and your team do deserve to be dunked on

dangerface 4y ago

> Is it not acceptable that we use the same language? Good question why insult him for his use if you feel its appropriate language?

indy 4y ago

A good apology has three parts: 1. I'm sorry 2. It was my fault 3. How do I make it right?

chii 4y ago
They skipped straight to the 3rd step, without doing the first 2.

TrueTom 4y ago

It seems you have posted the wrong link because there isn't really an apology?

doix 4y ago
> We were wrong. As such, we dedicate this experimental renderer to the community as an olive branch. We know we have so much more to learn, but we hope that you will accept our apology and understand we’re humans behind this product with a capability and willingness to learn from our past mistakes. What more really needs to be said? Feels like one of those times where if everyone just sat around at a pub with a beer, everything would be resolved. Instead it's just little snide remarks back and forth. It's a shame, I really like Casey, and he was definitely right, but it's probably time to move on.
- TrueTom 4y ago
  I'm being facetious here. As far as apologies go that's a pretty weak attempt.
  - doix 4y ago
    Heh, my bad! This is the problem with text based conversation between strangers :).
    - TrueTom 4y ago
      It was dumb and passive-aggressive comment (by me) so every kind of response is fair game, I guess... :)
    - mannykannot 4y ago
      I doubt this would have gone any better face-to-face. In a text-based conversation you at least have the opportunity to reflect before you reply.
- time_to_smile 4y ago
  > What more really needs to be said? Well if I were to write an apology "frankly to <person>" I would probably mention <person> by name in the apology.

ddalex 4y ago

> except to note that it was not an apology at all. Ctrl-F there doesn't show a single "sorry" in the text. Or "Casey" for that matter. Why is it so difficult to say: "Casey, we are sorry, you were right and we were mistaken.". Instead there is a nebulous ~extended a branch to community and hope to accept our apology~ (paraphrasing) without offering an apology in the first place.

sirbranedamuj 4y ago
try looking for the word "apology" edit: > We know we have so much more to learn, but we hope that you will accept our apology and understand we’re humans behind this product with a capability and willingness to learn from our past mistakes. If someone said that to me, I would say "oh ok, no problem dude" and move on with my life. Not even defending the microsoft guy, I have zero skin in the game and couldn't care less. but people being weirdly pedantic about which words do and do not constitute an apology just because the source is Evil Microsoft Guy.
- ghusbands 4y ago
  Except "but we hope you will accept our apology" is not an apology. If they'd written "but we hope you will accept our apologies", it would have been an overly formal apology. In the informal tone they are otherwise using, saying "sorry" would have been most appropriate.
- Longhanks 4y ago
  Sticking the word "apology" on a letter does not make it an apology.
  - NikolaNovak 4y ago
    But sticking "Sorry" does? Your whole post was Ctrl-F for a keyword, while refusing a synonym.
    - ddalex 4y ago

mns 4y ago

Wow, that's sure a weird way to post something on behalf of your company. Curious how long will it take to delete this message, seeing how it was written mostly in the heat of the moment.

rkachowski 4y ago

I understand issues are always more complicated than at first glance, but your tone doesn't exactly invite sympathy for yourself or your team.

shakabrah 4y ago

Typically, when apologizing, you should name the person you are apologizing to. Otherwise, they might do something like not acknowledge your apology.

protomyth 4y ago
Yep, Naming the person and linking to the "kerfuffle" inline that you created would be minimum to consider that post an apology. Calling it a "kerfuffle" is odd phrasing that downplays the actions.

candiddevmike 4y ago

> We get it, Microsoft sucks, we should all be fired, rah rah rah. This response shows how little you value users feedback (and how unafraid of them you are). Probably should leave this kind of thing to your developer relations team...

Humdeee 4y ago
Yep, that part just seemed so condescendingly dismissive.

eric_b 4y ago

This kind of tone really doesn't engender sympathy: > We get it, Microsoft sucks, we should all be fired, rah rah rah. > I just don't know what else he's asking for here. Credit? Us to die screaming? The blog post is matter-of-fact, and Casey is right: however, he said himself that it was trivial to do this. Is it not acceptable that we use the same language? Your "apology" really is anything but. If anything you and your team come off as combative, thin skinned and hostile to outsiders. But, you do you bro.

grepfru_it 4y ago
This is Microsoft culture spilling into the real world. There were several times when I pointed out a fix for a flaw or problem we were suffering from and was mocked and told it’s a silly idea that I shouldn’t be wasting time on. Fast forward 1-3 months later and that same person is singing the praises for the same idea someone else “came up with”. Except it was me shopping my idea around. Seeing the tweet and the thread makes me realize this is systemic to MSFT as an org (who now is the champion and host for all major open source organizations)
- user3939382 4y ago
  Cut scene to me explaining my new product to a Google VP (hoping to get funding) who instead made a crappy copy and released it 6 months later. Don't meet your heroes.
  - meheleventyone 4y ago
    This really is every org, even if someone starts lukewarm to an idea it can percolate, get established and then come back out again as a fresh opinion without any malice intended. It’s always fun to get your own ideas back almost verbatim.
    - user3939382 4y ago
      To clarify I didn’t work for Google

ghusbands 4y ago

That's not an apology, as written. You say you did something wrong and say "we hope that you will accept our apology", having not actually given one. Maybe English isn't your first language, and so you don't know the difference between "accept our apologies" (which is a formal/distant apology) and "accept our apology" (which refers to a previous apology). Also, good apologies come with admission of fault and steps you'll take to make sure you don't make the same mistake again.

jackbravo 4y ago
I did see admission of fault: > We were wrong. As such, we dedicate this experimental renderer to the community as an olive branch. We know we have so much more to learn, but we hope that you will accept our apology and understand we’re humans behind this product with a capability and willingness to learn from our past mistakes.
meheleventyone 4y ago
Whilst not hitting all the grammar notes “we hope that you will accept our apology” is quite normal colloquially.

HL33tibCe7 4y ago

I’m kind of in awe by the unprofessionalism of this response. In an era of incessant corporate PR, it’s somewhat refreshing lol.

curiousgal 4y ago
Chastising devs who address issues directly is a great way to make sure canned PR responses is all we get.
- NikolaNovak 4y ago
  Exactly. And it'll be these same exact people who will complain about canned PR responses :->
  - ddalex 4y ago
    And we should not accept rudeness and unprofessionalism just to avoid canned PR responses People should learn to express themselves professionally and keep up the standards, on the professional communities, this is not /b/
- Aeolun 4y ago
  Adressing issues directly in the wrong way is a much better motivation for PR teams to jump in.
- robertlagrant 4y ago
  No, devs giving bad responses is what creates PR jobs.

drumhead 4y ago

You're not doing your company any credit here......

curiousgal 4y ago

It's so ironic that people are criticizing this comment and the linked apology for their language but fail to see that the original issue was caused by Casey's language and not the actual technical details.

philipwhiuk 4y ago
No the original issue was the Microsoft team not understand their own code and then claiming you needed a PhD to use a different renderer.

RL_Quine 4y ago

Your tone is way, way off.

time_to_smile 4y ago

I'm impressed you could write this without the self-awareness to realize this only makes your team look worse. The idea that vaguely saying sorry to an abstract community should resolve this entire issue is repulsive. Merely stating an apology does not thereby grant you forgiveness. I had a neighbor who once tore up my yard doing construction. They apologized profusely, but outside of words never made any meaningful recompense. If I complain about the damage am I in the wrong simply because he utter some words of apology? The tone here sounds like you're more annoyed that Casey was right and wish you could go back to feeling clever.

warent 4y ago

> I just don't know what else he's asking for here. Credit? Us to die screaming? ... We get it, Microsoft sucks, we should all be fired, rah rah rah. Someone is upset and venting. This comment comes across to me as "Ugh we already said the right words. Their distress is so inconvenient to me, why isn't it stopping?" EDIT: Typically in this community we denote when a comment has been edited to change a critical piece of the message... I'm detecting very little genuine authentic empathy

Longhanks 4y ago
It's already been edited twice. The original message ended with the snarky "we should all be fired, rah rah" thing. They're already on damage control.
_lqaf 4y ago
> I'm detecting very little genuine authentic empathy Welcome to Microsoft!
markus_zhang 4y ago
Everyone can rant. I think it's fine, at least a lot better than a faked smile.
- ineedasername 4y ago
  A fake smile at least tells me they know that a different response would be unprofessional, rather than making the an unprofessional comment and not being self aware enough to realize it until it's pointed out.
  - markus_zhang 4y ago
    Since this is not a professional place I think it's OK. I mean if Casey can rant then he should be able too. Of course I guess it doesn't look good and I'm fine with that.
    - 4y ago

lemper 4y ago

Aight, bud. When I was a kid, my parents taught me how to apologise. first, I have to acknowledge what I did wrong. Then, I have to actually say the word ('sorry', if you don't know) to the person I wronged. finally, I need to offer some way forward. don't know how your team works, but I hope at least you (as a team) are mature enough to actually apologise in a clear cut manner.

colinmhayes 4y ago
They acknowledged what they did wrong. They said "we hope you accept our apology" which, according to what I was taught, is a replacement for "sorry." They offered the renderer as a gift I guess, and they did a mini post mortem and talked about what they learned. Really seems like you're reaching for straws here.

tut-urut-utut 4y ago

When I read your tone here, I don't even need to read your “apology” to know that it was not a real apology. No, Microsoft doesn't suck. It's a great company. It's some people there that suck, and one just got self-identified.

dmitriid 4y ago

- You and lhecker insulted Casey Muratori - You insisted this was a "doctoral research" (your words) and that he was "misguided" (Leonard's words) - When it turned out he was right, you posted a non-apology (you didn't even name the person you were apologizing to) - A year later Leonard who claimed it was so hard now writes a blog post that "solution is trivial" and was "suggested by a community member". Once again failing to acknowledge the person who gave you this trivial solution What more you could've done? What do you think?

green_biri 4y ago
> - You and lhecker insulted Casey Muratori And Casey didn't? Please take into consideration that Casey's definition of the solution as "simple" can sound quite insulting as well. If someone stated that something is "simple" with an overtone of "are you blind", instead of showing more humility, I would feel insulted too.
- dmitriid 4y ago
  > Please take into consideration that Casey's definition of the solution as "simple" can sound quite insulting as well. It can sound insulting only to people who originally claimed that what Casey suggested requires "doctoral level research into performance". Only to then implement exactly what he suggested. > If someone stated that something is "simple" with an overtone of "are you blind", instead of showing more humility Please re-read the original GitHub issue from the start: https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/issues/10362 https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/issues/10362 He is there trying to understand an issue, providing suggestions etc. And generally being baffled how a modern terminal on a modern machine can output text at something like 5 frames per second. After that Windows Terminal team barges in with "what you’re doing is describing something that might be considered an entire doctoral research project in performant terminal emulation" to... only do exactly that later. And what Casey said was going to be simple is this: https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/issues/10362#issuecomment-862822530 https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/issues/10362#issuecomm... Tell me how this is insulting to anyone except the people who now claim that "oh we'd been aware about this approach before Casey opened the issue"?

yowlingcat 4y ago

> I get it, Microsoft sucks, we should all be fired, rah rah rah. Unironically, yes, UNLESS... - You're willing to take a serious look in the mirror (and understand that the way you reacted to the situation was defensive, passive aggressive and inflammatory rather than direct, constructive and conciliatory) - You assign credit where credit is due - You do a good faith post-mortem and come up with some way to make sure this won't happen in the future Now, if that happens, then obviously you should not be fired; if anything, you should be rewarded as handling difficult situations like this correctly tends to be the true test of one's capabilities as a professional. Unfortunately, it's high stakes, high rewards -- which also means high risks and consequences. It's not easy to say "We made a mistake. Not only that, but there's no easy 1-shot fix to undo what went wrong. Let's sit down together and discuss, and we'll listen. Then, we'll go and think about that for a while and come back to you with where we align, where we differ; and so far as where we agree, where we think we can improve. What do you say?" It may not be easy, but it's worth it. Relationships are built in the muck.

bogwog 4y ago
I'm all for firing these people for their disrespectful and unprofessional behavior but... being assholes and writing shitty software is on-brand for Microsoft. It'd be hypocritical of them to fire these people for this (although I guess hypocrisy is also on-brand for Microsoft, so who knows lol)

blibble 4y ago

arrogant-ms-dev 4y ago

celdon25 4y ago
You're not wrong but creating a new account just to pile it on isn't quite role model material on the subject either. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html > Throwaway accounts are ok for sensitive information, but please don't create accounts routinely. HN is a community—users should have an identity that others can relate to.
pyb 4y ago
Some say, in this thread and elsewhere, that this is representative of how many teams at MS work.

foobarian 4y ago

For what it's worth, I think it's commendable that you are engaging this externally no matter the tone, instead of the usual cowardly radio silence like most big cos. I find the this-is-not-actually-an-apology nitpicking disappointing; community should be encouraging this kind of conversation, not squashing it.

calsy 4y ago
They are engaging externally because the issue has gained traction in the community. I also don't think people need to be grateful because they were blessed with a response.

BaculumMeumEst 4y ago

Any response to his claim that the author of the blogpost was talking about Windows Terminal in his Discord? The license of Casey’s project would be an issue if you guys used it.

2pEXgD0fZ5cF 4y ago

> I'll admit that we didn't list him by name, but neither did we list the other handful of folks involved It's only an apology in the manner of soulless corporate jargon then. A generic statement following a personal/directed insult does not count as an apology. Edit: also the following > (Note: I've iteratively edited this post, as it was originally a one-sentence diatribe written in anger. I originally asked, "I just don't know what else he's asking for here. Credit? Us to die screaming?" It was not a good look.) I think your comment and it's different iterations demonstrated very well how you guys (still) feel about this.

NikolaNovak 4y ago

Thanks for your response; you're getting a lot of flack here, even repeated suggestions of ESL, by people who I feel have unreasonable expectation of perfection of others that I doubt they'd be able to fulfill 100% in every facet of their own life. English is indeed not my first language, but I've lived in North America for 25 years and stakeholder communication is part of my job description. "I did something wrong; please accept my apologies" to me is boiler-plate standard, sufficient, acceptable way. Your blog post goes way past that! It says "We caused the kerfuffle". Even "We were Wrong", explicitly! I for one understand your frustration and probably real question of "What else do you want from us - keel over and die?" - it's just that humanity is not an acceptable feature to show from people HN wants to hate on already. That's OK though. Their reaction here will simply mean we'll get less sincere humane posts like yours, and more corporate-sanitized meaningless PR, which I'm sure will make those very same people much happier. And yes that's a pointed /s :-)

brothir 4y ago
You're missing out on a lot of details. For instance, one of the team members went into Casey's discord to harass him. That was not apologized for in any way. Secondly, the apology doesn't mention Casey specifically, and it's arrogant to believe you can address everyone adequately without mentioning specific names with specific apologies for the exact errors. The apology is written almost tactically to avoid dealing with specifics. When the OP additionally started this entire thread with anger, the idea that steps have been taken forward is pretty much dead.

philipwhiuk 4y ago

> we apologized[1] Yeah, that's not an apology. That's something saying you did apologise. It doesn't look like you actually sent an apology, and you never mentioned Casey at all. If this were a security vulnerability Casey would have gotten a mention (and a Bug Bounty). I guess Microsoft don't care about credit for other stuff.

adgjlsfhk1 4y ago

Now can you get Microsoft to fix their broken implementation of FMA? (see https://github.com/MicrosoftDocs/cpp-docs/pull/3526 https://github.com/MicrosoftDocs/cpp-docs/pull/3526 for details)

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nsxwolf 4y ago

This response, to me anyway, is worse than no response at all.

gjsman-1000 4y ago

> "(Note: I've iteratively edited this post, as it was originally a one-sentence diatribe written in anger. I originally asked, "I just don't know what else he's asking for here. Credit? Us to die screaming?" It was not a good look.)" So you stole his idea and realized a one-liner dismissal was not a "good look" for yourself, so you wrote an "apology"? It's not about him, it's about saving yourself from the blowback. This and the events documented are the closest thing to a psychopathic programmer I've ever seen.

ripley12 4y ago
[flagged]
- brothir 4y ago
  This is dishonest. The issue did go the way he wanted to, it's how the team responded to it that is the issue. And how is Casey the narcissist when the OP started a pure vent post and had to backtrack it, and who should you blame for being exhausted given that?
  - ripley12 4y ago
    - brothir 4y ago
      But I'm not angry, and I have to create my first account one way or another. Am I not allowed to create my first account because I want to respond to a contentious topic? Is you saying what you're saying not just selective bias? And do you have an actual counterpoint?

deleted 4y ago

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celdon25 4y ago

Here is some extremely simple advice: If you are going to publicly lecture someone because of a technical opinion that hurt your feelings, you better yourself be a grandmaestro on the subject of tactfulness. That might work within your company if the company had a culture that includes radical candor, but these are public conversations with community members. Setting the merits of your point of view aside, your communication skills suck.

hownottowrite 4y ago

Read the thread, read the posts, read this reply... it would've been trivial to write a nice apology and move on, but instead you tripped over your own ego (twice). Well played! Should've just let it go when you had the chance.

ineedasername 4y ago

>except to tell his followers that it was not a real apology Well, it wasn't a real apology. It was "We hope you accept our apology When you apologize, you say "I am sorry [insert other words of explantion]." Then you can say "We hope..." What you did simply refers back to an apology that wasn't actually made. Considering that he was correct in saying the problem was simple, his tone was not actually combative, it accurately characterized the problem. So you belittled him & insulted him, and as you admitted you then failed to give credit where due to him & others. He has a career as well. Wouldn't it be nice for him to be able to pad his Vitae with a win on something like this? Then your initial response he was, as you said, "not a good look". The edited post is better, but still not very good.

JohnJamesRambo 4y ago

Yikes this gets worse.

vmception 4y ago

> I'll admit that we didn't list him by name, but neither did we list the other handful of folks involved. We should have. This week's blog post refers to them as a "community member" [of Microsoft]. Such a self aggrandizing term. Someone reported a bug on github. Your team dismissed them and peppered them with deflective words to pretend that the team is making a safe space for employees that don't care at all. Your edits are getting closer.

nickmancol 4y ago

I think that Seinfeld already covered this situation https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=A6nWTZF08LA https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=A6nWTZF08LA

micromacrofoot 4y ago

"I just don't know what else he's asking for here." ASK HIM We've created the most incredible communication platform in human history and no one actually talks to each other, everyone just tries to publicly snipe.

kragen 4y ago

Have you thought about not managing your team in such a way as to engender hostility from the outside world? It would be a good start to credit people outside the team for their work improving your product, instead of trying to take credit for it yourself. Writing an "apology" for taking credit for someone else's work, without naming the person who did the work, is just adding insult to injury. Actually making amends would involve giving credit, both in your apology and by adding their name to the top of the original announcement if you can still edit it.

user3939382 4y ago

> dunking on my team Translation: While I'm ostensibly apologizing please note that I'm actually the victim here, everyone please feel sorry for me and my team.

______-_-______ 4y ago

Yikes. Ego and open source do not mix well.

sodality2 4y ago
Ego and human interaction doesn't. Open source just exposes those clashes publicly.

bena 4y ago

In the future, when you think someone is being a fucking moron, never actually call them a fucking moron. Because if it turns out they weren't a fucking moron and you were wrong all along, you're going to look, well, like this. The way to navigate the conversation would have been something closer to this: "I thought it was already doing this, but I'll check again, maybe we misread the doc. Also there's X, Y, and Z to consider that may make what you suggest harder than it seems on the surface". That all being said, I kind of don't like anybody in this kerfluffle. I think your assessment of his character isn't terribly off the mark and now you're caught in a version of "the worst person you know actually has a point". Now, we can sit here and discuss whether his approach engendered a response in kind or not, but at some point, someone has to be the duck and let the personal slide off their backs.

chii 4y ago
In short, be humble, and don't assume your own position is always correct, and leave room for doubt and criticism. Seek to find why someone else would consider your position wrong - it can't hurt because if you can find proof that your position is correct this way, it only strengthens your position, and if your position turns out to be wrong, you can learn and gain experience (while thanking the people who critisized you). unfortunately, ego is what prevents this in a lot of people. Their self-worth is linked to being correct, and people pointing out that their foundational beliefs are wrong cannot be acknowledged.

Crosseye_Jack 4y ago

> Another day, another Casey post dunking on my team. Hi! > Casey rightly did not acknowledge it except to tell his followers that it was not a real apology > Casey, I'm sorry. We made a mistake. I made a mistake! We didn't know what we didn't know, and thought we were clever enough to pass for it. Your edited post starts of with the feeling that you are pissed at Casey, they are dunking on your team yet again. Then you go on to apologize to them. Jesus fucking crist mate, no post would have been better than this.

jgmmo 4y ago

Man this whole interaction really makes you guys look incompetent DHowett

nixpulvis 4y ago

Let's all just agree that computers suck and we should all just go back to churning butter for a living.

smcl 4y ago

> Another day, another Casey post dunking on my team Man, you have to take criticism better than that. Remember, we don't know anything about this other than the tweets plus these replies from you and your colleague here on HN. So the tweets honestly didn't seem to describe a particularly bad problem, the only thing that stood out to me was the fake-name-on-discord thing which is yet to be substantiated. I was willing to chalk it all up to an OSS contributor feeling ignored and ranting a little, but the feeling I have now is that there's some pettiness and bickering going both ways.

deleted 4y ago
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dangerface 4y ago

> Is it not acceptable that we use the same language? Good question why insult him for his use if you feel its appropriate language? > As the message evolved, that became more and more out-of-place. The wording didn't "became more" it was inappropriate from the start and instead of acknowledging this you and lhecker have tried walking back every excuse to downplay this. You both don't think it was out of place or inappropriate you are both just upset that you got called out on it.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago

> Using a texture atlas was a great idea, and we didn't know about it until you told us. One is forced to wonder how, in an entire team working on a terminal emulator, no one thought to use the texture atlas. I mean, that's basically how the actual physical terminals the software is emulating worked in the first place. Then, when told about the obvious implementation, the reaction was not to slap one's forehead and say "Of course, it was so obvious!", but instead to tell a decades-experience game engine developer that they didn't understand how rendering works. Mind boggling.

digisign 4y ago
They've bragged in the past that the team members are younger than conhost.exe. I think that about sums it up. It's not a crime to be naive, but lashing out in response is a problem, as we've seen.

phendrenad2 4y ago

Okay look, you've probably stopped reading comments at this point and have thrown your Hacker News password into the ocean. But just in case you haven't, here's how to fix this: Just go away. You're clearly not sorry at all, so the best thing you can do, for your own sake, is to stop trying to fool everyone into thinking that you're sorry. We're too smart for that. Just go radio silent and have someone else do PR for your team from now on. In a few years everyone will have forgotten about this incident, and you can start posting again.

aj 4y ago

Really cool apology! I wonder why you're choosing this hill to die on with this tone. Belligerence in the original post is what led to this and you're continuing with the same tone. You and your team do deserve to be dunked on