6 ms·

A Berlin News paper reports of the public inquiry of firefighters and emergency personnel to investigate the root cause of a rise in different "heart issue cal

A Berlin News paper reports of the public inquiry of firefighters and emergency personnel to investigate the root cause of a rise in different "heart issue calls" of 27-31% in 2021 (40k calls) compared to 2018/2019. In german: https://www.berliner-zeitung.de/news/berlin-feuerwehr-herzprobleme-und-schlaganfaelle-zahl-der-rettungseinsaetze-steigt-stark-an-li.222431 https://www.berliner-zeitung.de/news/berlin-feuerwehr-herzpr... They argue to change from mandatory vaccination to optional vaccination for their profession. Evolution will tell what the right choice was. I am having popcorn while watching the extremists battle each others position.

linkgoron 4y ago
Maybe it has something to do with a new virus going around, there was also an increase in 2020... There's a reason why they're comparing 2021 to 2018/2019 and not to 2020.
- lbj 4y ago
  Correlation between rollouts and virus-infections respectively, show that the mRNA vaccine is almost twice as likely to cause a cardiovascular event. So Covid is indeed dangerous, but not quite as dangerous as the vaccine it seems.
  - WithinReason 4y ago
    The risk-benefit calculation is strongly age dependent. For old people there's no question about the benefit of the vaccines. For healthy children it's close.
    - lbj 4y ago
      It's very, very, very far from close. The most recent study from Christine Stabell out of Copenhagen showed that even if you're in the age group where the vaccine cuts covid mortality in half, you're overall 7% more likely to die by taking the vaccine. We need to get back to the drawing board on this one.
      - distrohopper 4y ago
        very common fallacy: absolute vs relative risk. kids have a miniscule risk of dying from covid (0.01%?) therefore reducing this already very very small risk isn't doing much at all. Of course kids do not require an experimental vaccine for a not at all very lethal viral infection.
        usrn 4y ago
        You're not even guaranteed to get infected (I still haven't been.) So you need to apply that prior as well.
        nradov 4y ago
        The virus will be around forever so unless you live in a sterile bubble everyone will be occasionally exposed. So infection isn't 100% guaranteed, but it's close. https://www.medpagetoday.com/opinion/vinay-prasad/94646 https://www.medpagetoday.com/opinion/vinay-prasad/94646 How do you know you haven't been infected? Asymptomatic cases are common, and most people aren't getting frequent tests.
      - maxerickson 4y ago
        She appears to be a crank pushing a "live vaccines are magic" theory.
  - water-your-self 4y ago
    Covid has killed hundreds of thousands of people. Your claim is not based on reality.
    - lbj 4y ago
      In Denmark at least, through all of 2020 we had 0.0% increase in mortality. 2 weeks after we started vaccinating that number climbed to 12.6%, so we might find that the vaccines have killed even more people. Certainly if you did the deceptive deed of tracking "dead with vaccine" like we do for the disease.
      - Narkov 4y ago
        Correlation != causation.
      - nicoburns 4y ago
        > Certainly if you did the deceptive deed of tracking "dead with vaccine" like we do for the disease. Where are they not tracking "dead with covid" separately from "dead from covid"? Here in the UK we have very clearly recorded separate numbers for these (the "dead from" number were ~66% the "dead with" numbers until recently with the rise of Omicron meaning that far more people have covid and far few people are dying from it).
        lbj 4y ago
        In Denmark we have only tracked "dead with" and then mid 2021 we had a large study to figure out the actual number of dead, which turned out to be about 120 people.
        AlphaOne1 4y ago
        Do you have a citation for this? Very interesting and would like to look into this more.
    - stefan_ 4y ago
      Yeah, but death is not a cardiovascular event you know - these people just suffocated.
- cas14655 4y ago
  TFA specifically answers this question. > [..] increased CA incidence was not observed among the 16–39 age group in 2020
WithinReason 4y ago
30% is well within the placebo effect, there needs to be something more solid before I get worried.
KarlKemp 4y ago
The rise started with 15 % in 2020. More or less 0 % were vaccinated at the end of that year. In 2021 incidences rose another 10 % or so. To ascribe this rise to vaccinations and just shrug at the year before is... creative. FWIW something that would seem to fit almost perfectly is infections, which were about twice as high in 2021 compared to 2020. Also: this is an association of "vaccine-critical" firemen asking these questions, and the data is from 911 calls, which are not diagnoses. They are also trending towards being more specific in their classification scheme because they now have specific protocols and equipment for some indications, such as strokes.

linkgoron 4y ago

Maybe it has something to do with a new virus going around, there was also an increase in 2020... There's a reason why they're comparing 2021 to 2018/2019 and not to 2020.

lbj 4y ago
Correlation between rollouts and virus-infections respectively, show that the mRNA vaccine is almost twice as likely to cause a cardiovascular event. So Covid is indeed dangerous, but not quite as dangerous as the vaccine it seems.
- WithinReason 4y ago
  The risk-benefit calculation is strongly age dependent. For old people there's no question about the benefit of the vaccines. For healthy children it's close.
  - lbj 4y ago
    It's very, very, very far from close. The most recent study from Christine Stabell out of Copenhagen showed that even if you're in the age group where the vaccine cuts covid mortality in half, you're overall 7% more likely to die by taking the vaccine. We need to get back to the drawing board on this one.
    - distrohopper 4y ago
      very common fallacy: absolute vs relative risk. kids have a miniscule risk of dying from covid (0.01%?) therefore reducing this already very very small risk isn't doing much at all. Of course kids do not require an experimental vaccine for a not at all very lethal viral infection.
      - usrn 4y ago
        You're not even guaranteed to get infected (I still haven't been.) So you need to apply that prior as well.
        nradov 4y ago
        The virus will be around forever so unless you live in a sterile bubble everyone will be occasionally exposed. So infection isn't 100% guaranteed, but it's close. https://www.medpagetoday.com/opinion/vinay-prasad/94646 https://www.medpagetoday.com/opinion/vinay-prasad/94646 How do you know you haven't been infected? Asymptomatic cases are common, and most people aren't getting frequent tests.
    - maxerickson 4y ago
      She appears to be a crank pushing a "live vaccines are magic" theory.
- water-your-self 4y ago
  Covid has killed hundreds of thousands of people. Your claim is not based on reality.
  - lbj 4y ago
    In Denmark at least, through all of 2020 we had 0.0% increase in mortality. 2 weeks after we started vaccinating that number climbed to 12.6%, so we might find that the vaccines have killed even more people. Certainly if you did the deceptive deed of tracking "dead with vaccine" like we do for the disease.
    - Narkov 4y ago
      Correlation != causation.
    - nicoburns 4y ago
      > Certainly if you did the deceptive deed of tracking "dead with vaccine" like we do for the disease. Where are they not tracking "dead with covid" separately from "dead from covid"? Here in the UK we have very clearly recorded separate numbers for these (the "dead from" number were ~66% the "dead with" numbers until recently with the rise of Omicron meaning that far more people have covid and far few people are dying from it).
      - lbj 4y ago
        In Denmark we have only tracked "dead with" and then mid 2021 we had a large study to figure out the actual number of dead, which turned out to be about 120 people.
        AlphaOne1 4y ago
        Do you have a citation for this? Very interesting and would like to look into this more.
  - stefan_ 4y ago
    Yeah, but death is not a cardiovascular event you know - these people just suffocated.
cas14655 4y ago
TFA specifically answers this question. > [..] increased CA incidence was not observed among the 16–39 age group in 2020

WithinReason 4y ago

30% is well within the placebo effect, there needs to be something more solid before I get worried.

KarlKemp 4y ago

The rise started with 15 % in 2020. More or less 0 % were vaccinated at the end of that year. In 2021 incidences rose another 10 % or so. To ascribe this rise to vaccinations and just shrug at the year before is... creative. FWIW something that would seem to fit almost perfectly is infections, which were about twice as high in 2021 compared to 2020. Also: this is an association of "vaccine-critical" firemen asking these questions, and the data is from 911 calls, which are not diagnoses. They are also trending towards being more specific in their classification scheme because they now have specific protocols and equipment for some indications, such as strokes.