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> Treat children with respect! They are very smart, they just lack experience. If they "misbehave", talk to them and explain why this is not good. This is so o

> Treat children with respect! They are very smart, they just lack experience. If they "misbehave", talk to them and explain why this is not good. This is so out of touch with the reality of toddlers that I can’t help but think you’ve either never had children, someone else raised your children, or you got really lucky with an abnormally docile kid. Screaming tantrums are hard to give rational explanations over. Do you wait your turn to speak between screams or just talk over them?

c22 5y ago
I tell the child "I can't understand you when you talk to me using that voice" over and over until the child calms themself down and delivers their grievance at a normal volume. Then I explain why things are the way they are and the tantrum re-erupts (usually) so we repeat the process two or three times. This technique requires a huge amount of patience, though, and it certainly doesn't get you to school on time.
atoav 5y ago
The whole field of behavioral science is something that exists and looking there for hints what actually works might be a good thing. Afaik the studies say that punishment is worse than ignoring wrong behavior in terms of getting you the outcome you want. Better even is giving positive feedback on positive behavior while of ignoring bad one. And yes, I had a toddler brother and had to test this based on actual, stressful reality.
- devmor 5y ago
  My uncle (RIP), who was a child psychologist was a staunch proponent of treating his kids with respect and intellectual honesty. Like most kids, they still got into trouble and had major screw ups in their young lives. However I've never seen anyone who respected their parents more in my life. There were no beatings, no yelling, no destroying or selling of their property as punishment. And wouldn't you know it, when they got in trouble for something they did wrong - they didn't resent their parents for it. They were always expressive that their mistake (or the general view of society that what they did is a mistake) was the problem. It's hardly empirical evidence but it certainly convinced me.
  - donthellbanme 5y ago
    I get what you are saying completely, and completely agree. I have noticed male children, especially the first born male, who's father is a Psychiatrist end up--well--what's the right phrase? Some seem very angry. It's just something I noticed in my small circle. I'm probally wrong, but it's something I have noticed.
    - vosper 5y ago
      How many people do you know who are the first-born male child of a male Psychiatrist? I'm thinking your sample size might be a little small to be drawing conclusions :) (that and, how are you sure you're not experiencing confirmation bias?)
      - Dudeman112 5y ago
        That seemed like an oddly specific filter. Unless there's some condition that make them more likely to know about first born males of male psychiatrists, I would have bet on "definitely small sample" too
    - neuroma 5y ago
      I'd suggest that 1. Psychiatrists and very different to psychologists 2. Intra job variation of personality and parenting style probably exceeds inter job variation 3. Anger at dad may not be a consequence of their job
      - louky 5y ago
        I had one of each (Psychologist, Psychiatrist) as parents. Could have been worse. Almost no anger 40 years later!
    - rpod 5y ago
      As the first-born son of a psychiatrist, I feel inclined to add the data point that I do not recognize this in myself. I have a fairly neurotic personality, though, maybe that's the word you are looking for? Then again I don't think my father's profession has had a significant impact on my personality. Maybe it has more to do with a type of personality that professions like psychiatry attract? It's hardly disputed that your parents' personalities tend to rub off on you.
- blub 5y ago
  What studies? Empirically, ignoring wrong behaviour is a clear recipe for ending up with a completely spoiled menace on ones hands. The alternative to punishment is therefore not ignoring, it's explaining things and setting boundaries which will have to be enforced somehow.
  - Brybry 5y ago
    > Parents should also be reminded that physical punishment may cause tantrum behavior to intensify and lengthen. Such parental behavior also teaches children that hitting is permitted when the punishment is physical (Kyle, 2008; Murphy & Berry, 2009) > The best recommendation for parents in this situation is to remain calm, try to distract the child, and ignore the tantrum if possible. [1] https://sci-hub.st/https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23006014/ https://sci-hub.st/https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23006014/ > Ignore the tantrum. [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK544286/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK544286/ > "Getting into it teaches the kid the way to get your attention is to have a big fuss," he said. "If you ignore that outburst, they're less likely to do it." - neuropsychologist w/ lots published on quality and duration of tantrums in toddlers [3] https://www.today.com/health/real-reasons-your-toddler-crying-1C9313670 https://www.today.com/health/real-reasons-your-toddler-cryin... [4] https://sci-hub.st/https://doi.org/10.1097/00004703-200306000-00003 https://sci-hub.st/https://doi.org/10.1097/00004703-20030600... [5] https://sci-hub.st/https://doi.org/10.1037/a0024173 https://sci-hub.st/https://doi.org/10.1037/a0024173 > Any behavior that gets attention will continue - clinical psychologist [6] https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/how-to-respond-to-tantrums-2020051919845 https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/how-to-respond-to-tantru... Obviously there's lots of nuance and this is mainly advice given for tantrums in toddlers, primarily attention seeking tantrums in toddlers without development issues. But it does generally follow 'praise good behavior, ignore bad behavior'.
    - dudeman13 5y ago
      Do you mind sharing how you got those references? I.e. which search strings/websites you used, or if you had them at hand with f.e. Mendeley or maybe already knew about them? I wanted to read some papers in the subject a few days ago but couldn't come up with a good search strings nor good initial references. It's not my field of expertise :x
- bluecalm 5y ago
  It's true that punishment as in: "I am going to do unpleasant things to you because you misbehaved" isn't very effective. What works is enforcing consequences of actions: "the rules of this trip are such, it's ok if you ignore them but then you will not be part of it anymore" or "playing time comes after cleaning up after dinner, if you choose not to clean up no one is going to play with you". As long as the rules are clear, make sense and others follow them they work. Another thing that works is making the child aware that their behaviour hurts you. "What you do makes me sad/tired/feel/makes my work harder". You are not angry, just making them aware how their actions affect others. Needless to say you should never ever give in to a tantrum. Giving in to tantrums is not part of the structure everyone abides by. Source: my gf works with children, often with disabilities and is a psychologist interested in behavioral science. Children actually like you more if you're someone enforcing the rules and structure than a pushover who will do as they please if the tantrum is long and loud enough.
TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
I am glad I am not your child!!
watwut 5y ago
> Screaming tantrums are hard to give rational explanations over. Do you wait your turn to speak between screams or just talk over them? What is the point of being disrespectful over tantrum? Other then you venting own emotions that is.
- heavyset_go 5y ago
  Whenever I hear parents act like victims of normal childhood behavior, it's almost always to justify their own poor responses to it, like this or worse.
  - rkachowski 5y ago
    > their own poor responses to it, like this What poor response have you identified in the parent comment?
- kortilla 5y ago
  Are you suggesting that it is disrespectful to talk to a child while she/he is screaming? That’s not even disrespectful to an adult.
rusticpenn 5y ago
In almost all cases this is because of hunger or lack of sleep. Disclosure : have a 2 year old.
- c22 5y ago
  Could also be sickness or someone fed them juice and ice cream for lunch.
- jakewins 5y ago
  Yeah same, I don’t think I can recall a tantrum my kids had that wasn’t “rational”. Obviously all kids are super different, but for us it’s always low blood sugar, lack of sleep or being “trapped” where he wants do do something he can’t be allowed to.
- cloverich 5y ago
  If your kid is normal. Tantrums can indeed happen regularly and without addressable cause depending on the child.
logifail 5y ago
[Full disclosure: we have three kids] > Screaming tantrums are hard to give rational explanations over. Do you wait your turn to speak between screams or just talk over them? Screaming tantrums are a great demonstration of just how irrational young humans can be. I was (and am) firmly of the opinion that even when confronted with crazy it's crucial to [attempt to] remain rational in your response ... Speaking of irrational, one of our favourite anecdotes (one of several thousand...) when our eldest was a toddler, he was playing in the garden and for no good reason decided it would be a great idea to throw small rocks .. at our parked car. I was in the house and heard this strange <clunk> <pause> <clunk> <pause> <clunk> sound coming from outside... I stepped outside, he'd done about a dozen rocks by that point, judging by the dents in the panels of the car. I was so angry I recall managing to tell him firmly to stop but then having to actually walk away, leaving my wife to explain that "Daddy is so cross he can't actually speak right now..." He never did it again, thankfully. He's 12 now :)
- blub 5y ago
  Remaining calm and explaining things is great, as long as it's clear that this will sometimes (maybe many times) not achieve anything. I like to think that they'll think about what they were told once they calm down :-)
  - Aeolun 5y ago
    I find this to generally be true, but it’s hard to be calm in the moment, so you get angry first, and then talk it through later.
- gardenhedge 5y ago
  Another child might keep doing that or do it to other cars too. You had a well behaved child regardless of this one action. Some children are not well behaved
  - jrochkind1 5y ago
    One question is if punishment (of what sort) will make "not well behaved" children any better behaved. Based on my observation, I wouldn't count on it. I see lots of "not well behaved" children getting strictly punished and their behavior just gets worse and worse. I know especially in the USA we want to talk about "what people deserve" rather than "what works" (vaccines and general covid response anyone? like we'd rather have someone to blame and have the right people have bad outcomes we think they deserve, than actually do things that work?), but what a mess.
afandian 5y ago
Screaming tantrums are a sign that something is wrong. It's your job as a parent to help the child deal with that situation. Not always figuring out the actual percieved problem (as they're humans, it's almost certainly never anything to do with logic and as toddlers it's probably impossible to even express). Probably not fixable in the moment. But yes, waiting, connecting with them, and helping them to calm, and process the emotions.
- jcims 5y ago
  OK but sir this is a Wendys and there are 12 people on their lunch break lined up behind you. Please collect your child from the floor, shut them up and move along.
  - afandian 5y ago
    That's not incompatible. Of course you can't do that in the middle of the floor.
- kortex 5y ago
  > Probably not fixable in the moment. Precisely Sometimes (often) that something is merely a transient disconnect between their lizard brain reward/fear-centers and their rational cortex. There's not much to be done other than wait for the jello computer to stabilize itself. This is surprisingly applicable to humans of all ages.
Dave3of5 5y ago
Misbehave != tantrum. Normal child misbehave way more than they have tantrums (source: I have 2 children myself and my wife is a trained nursery nurse). Regardless with a tantrum you wait till they are calm then speak to them and explain to them what's the correct thing to do in that situation.
a_c 5y ago
I think I understand your sentiment here. Being a father of two (2 and 4), I think children younger than certain age cannot connect the negative result with the action they did. I yell, I lose candy, so what? I get to yell. Also, telling kids what not to do is different from what to do. You can tell kids don't do this, don't do that all day and they still fail to behave . My 2-yo tends to yell when he couldn't get the things he want. Telling him don't yell is futile. Taking snacks off his hand is even more futile. Giving him the stuff once he claim down and say "thank you" seems to help. On the other hand, punishing has its place. But use it sparingly. I always send both of them to time out if they fail to share toys or fight each other. There is no one size fit all. Every kids are different.
- lupire 5y ago
  pro-tip: send the toy to timeout instead. Consequences should be logically connected to behaviors.
PartiallyTyped 5y ago
I never screamed or threw tantrums after 2 or 3 years old. Screaming and tantrums happen only if parents show to the children that that is an easy way to get attention. I observed that catering to children and their tantrums does indeed result in problems down the road. I also observed that punishment never works. My dataset is 5 people. Disclaimer: I don't have children.
tonyarkles 5y ago
This, I think, depends a ton on the child and the relationship between the parent and child. One of the most amazing moments I can remember was at a dinner party with my ex’s extended family. There were lots of kids. During dinner, one of the kids (around 5 years old maybe?) started making a fuss about something. His mom leaned over and whispered something in his ear, his expression changed from upset to… kind of quizzical for a moment, and then I hear him whisper back “thanks!” His demeanour was perfect the rest of the meal, but in a happy friendly way, not the quiet sulking you often see after a child is chastised. After dinner I absolutely had to figure it out. He didn’t say “sorry” he said “thanks”?! I go up to the mom (who I’d never met) and say something like “that was amazing! What on earth did you say to him?” “Oh, all I said was ‘you’re being inappropriate.’ He’s a super conscientious kid, he doesn’t really need to be punished most of the time, he just needs a bit of clear, unemotional feedback. For him and me, yelling or threatening punishment escalates things, but this works great for us! Now, my daughter… that’s entirely different!”
- pnutjam 5y ago
  5 is totally different from 2. At that age they aren't even usually fully able to engage in a verbal discussion, which can be frustrating for them. I find patience and a tiered approach of punishments helps. Too many people jump to harsher punishment or longer timeouts and it's just punishing themselves because they have to miss that playdate or hold that kid in timeout. Start small and work your way up.
  - tonyarkles 5y ago
    Oh absolutely, lol 2 is the unfortunate stage where they've gained the capacity for rapid mobility without a whole lot of higher-order brain development yet. And I totally agree on high-patience and slowly escalating :D. I've only had to deal with this with nieces and nephews, not full-time for a year, but yeah... patience patience patience.
comboy 5y ago
Parents have strong opinions, but I suggest the following exercise. Observe parents with their children. But instead of focusing on the kid throwing tantrum or one listening to their parent, focus on the parents. See what their approach is, how much attention they give to the kid and in what way they treat them - not just when handling the difficult situation. Kids are very different and definitely not rational. But if you spend some time doing the above, you can't help but notice some patterns. Some are genetics, sure, but I'm talking about their approach to the kid, this is something that's up to them. Also, there are many books compiling data from papers about both short and long term results of different parenting approaches. Specific approaches offered in books differ, but data, especially long term studies, is pretty consistent. Of course everything depends on your optimization function. One may choose kid's depression in later life over feeling embarrassed at Wendys ;) But more seriously, it really does depend what you want to achieve. You may want your kids to be happy, altruistic, empathetic, hard working, clever successful, well behaved, social, open minded or creative. These are different things, parts of them conflicting with one another, you can't have them all. I think this is a big part of the reason why there are so many disagreements about parenting.
Ma8ee 5y ago
I have a 2 year and a 5 year old. Screaming tantrums are exceedingly rare, and when they happen it is usually because I have failed as a parent with basic things like forgetting snack time, or they didn't get enough sleep. Who in their right mind thinks that yelling at the kids or punishing them in these kind of situations would improve the situation?

c22 5y ago

I tell the child "I can't understand you when you talk to me using that voice" over and over until the child calms themself down and delivers their grievance at a normal volume. Then I explain why things are the way they are and the tantrum re-erupts (usually) so we repeat the process two or three times. This technique requires a huge amount of patience, though, and it certainly doesn't get you to school on time.

atoav 5y ago

The whole field of behavioral science is something that exists and looking there for hints what actually works might be a good thing. Afaik the studies say that punishment is worse than ignoring wrong behavior in terms of getting you the outcome you want. Better even is giving positive feedback on positive behavior while of ignoring bad one. And yes, I had a toddler brother and had to test this based on actual, stressful reality.

devmor 5y ago
My uncle (RIP), who was a child psychologist was a staunch proponent of treating his kids with respect and intellectual honesty. Like most kids, they still got into trouble and had major screw ups in their young lives. However I've never seen anyone who respected their parents more in my life. There were no beatings, no yelling, no destroying or selling of their property as punishment. And wouldn't you know it, when they got in trouble for something they did wrong - they didn't resent their parents for it. They were always expressive that their mistake (or the general view of society that what they did is a mistake) was the problem. It's hardly empirical evidence but it certainly convinced me.
- donthellbanme 5y ago
  I get what you are saying completely, and completely agree. I have noticed male children, especially the first born male, who's father is a Psychiatrist end up--well--what's the right phrase? Some seem very angry. It's just something I noticed in my small circle. I'm probally wrong, but it's something I have noticed.
  - vosper 5y ago
    How many people do you know who are the first-born male child of a male Psychiatrist? I'm thinking your sample size might be a little small to be drawing conclusions :) (that and, how are you sure you're not experiencing confirmation bias?)
    - Dudeman112 5y ago
      That seemed like an oddly specific filter. Unless there's some condition that make them more likely to know about first born males of male psychiatrists, I would have bet on "definitely small sample" too
  - neuroma 5y ago
    I'd suggest that 1. Psychiatrists and very different to psychologists 2. Intra job variation of personality and parenting style probably exceeds inter job variation 3. Anger at dad may not be a consequence of their job
    - louky 5y ago
      I had one of each (Psychologist, Psychiatrist) as parents. Could have been worse. Almost no anger 40 years later!
  - rpod 5y ago
    As the first-born son of a psychiatrist, I feel inclined to add the data point that I do not recognize this in myself. I have a fairly neurotic personality, though, maybe that's the word you are looking for? Then again I don't think my father's profession has had a significant impact on my personality. Maybe it has more to do with a type of personality that professions like psychiatry attract? It's hardly disputed that your parents' personalities tend to rub off on you.
blub 5y ago
What studies? Empirically, ignoring wrong behaviour is a clear recipe for ending up with a completely spoiled menace on ones hands. The alternative to punishment is therefore not ignoring, it's explaining things and setting boundaries which will have to be enforced somehow.
- Brybry 5y ago
  > Parents should also be reminded that physical punishment may cause tantrum behavior to intensify and lengthen. Such parental behavior also teaches children that hitting is permitted when the punishment is physical (Kyle, 2008; Murphy & Berry, 2009) > The best recommendation for parents in this situation is to remain calm, try to distract the child, and ignore the tantrum if possible. [1] https://sci-hub.st/https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23006014/ https://sci-hub.st/https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23006014/ > Ignore the tantrum. [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK544286/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK544286/ > "Getting into it teaches the kid the way to get your attention is to have a big fuss," he said. "If you ignore that outburst, they're less likely to do it." - neuropsychologist w/ lots published on quality and duration of tantrums in toddlers [3] https://www.today.com/health/real-reasons-your-toddler-crying-1C9313670 https://www.today.com/health/real-reasons-your-toddler-cryin... [4] https://sci-hub.st/https://doi.org/10.1097/00004703-200306000-00003 https://sci-hub.st/https://doi.org/10.1097/00004703-20030600... [5] https://sci-hub.st/https://doi.org/10.1037/a0024173 https://sci-hub.st/https://doi.org/10.1037/a0024173 > Any behavior that gets attention will continue - clinical psychologist [6] https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/how-to-respond-to-tantrums-2020051919845 https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/how-to-respond-to-tantru... Obviously there's lots of nuance and this is mainly advice given for tantrums in toddlers, primarily attention seeking tantrums in toddlers without development issues. But it does generally follow 'praise good behavior, ignore bad behavior'.
  - dudeman13 5y ago
    Do you mind sharing how you got those references? I.e. which search strings/websites you used, or if you had them at hand with f.e. Mendeley or maybe already knew about them? I wanted to read some papers in the subject a few days ago but couldn't come up with a good search strings nor good initial references. It's not my field of expertise :x
bluecalm 5y ago
It's true that punishment as in: "I am going to do unpleasant things to you because you misbehaved" isn't very effective. What works is enforcing consequences of actions: "the rules of this trip are such, it's ok if you ignore them but then you will not be part of it anymore" or "playing time comes after cleaning up after dinner, if you choose not to clean up no one is going to play with you". As long as the rules are clear, make sense and others follow them they work. Another thing that works is making the child aware that their behaviour hurts you. "What you do makes me sad/tired/feel/makes my work harder". You are not angry, just making them aware how their actions affect others. Needless to say you should never ever give in to a tantrum. Giving in to tantrums is not part of the structure everyone abides by. Source: my gf works with children, often with disabilities and is a psychologist interested in behavioral science. Children actually like you more if you're someone enforcing the rules and structure than a pushover who will do as they please if the tantrum is long and loud enough.

TedDoesntTalk 5y ago

I am glad I am not your child!!

watwut 5y ago

> Screaming tantrums are hard to give rational explanations over. Do you wait your turn to speak between screams or just talk over them? What is the point of being disrespectful over tantrum? Other then you venting own emotions that is.

heavyset_go 5y ago
Whenever I hear parents act like victims of normal childhood behavior, it's almost always to justify their own poor responses to it, like this or worse.
- rkachowski 5y ago
  > their own poor responses to it, like this What poor response have you identified in the parent comment?
kortilla 5y ago
Are you suggesting that it is disrespectful to talk to a child while she/he is screaming? That’s not even disrespectful to an adult.

rusticpenn 5y ago

In almost all cases this is because of hunger or lack of sleep. Disclosure : have a 2 year old.

c22 5y ago
Could also be sickness or someone fed them juice and ice cream for lunch.
jakewins 5y ago
Yeah same, I don’t think I can recall a tantrum my kids had that wasn’t “rational”. Obviously all kids are super different, but for us it’s always low blood sugar, lack of sleep or being “trapped” where he wants do do something he can’t be allowed to.
cloverich 5y ago
If your kid is normal. Tantrums can indeed happen regularly and without addressable cause depending on the child.

logifail 5y ago

[Full disclosure: we have three kids] > Screaming tantrums are hard to give rational explanations over. Do you wait your turn to speak between screams or just talk over them? Screaming tantrums are a great demonstration of just how irrational young humans can be. I was (and am) firmly of the opinion that even when confronted with crazy it's crucial to [attempt to] remain rational in your response ... Speaking of irrational, one of our favourite anecdotes (one of several thousand...) when our eldest was a toddler, he was playing in the garden and for no good reason decided it would be a great idea to throw small rocks .. at our parked car. I was in the house and heard this strange <clunk> <pause> <clunk> <pause> <clunk> sound coming from outside... I stepped outside, he'd done about a dozen rocks by that point, judging by the dents in the panels of the car. I was so angry I recall managing to tell him firmly to stop but then having to actually walk away, leaving my wife to explain that "Daddy is so cross he can't actually speak right now..." He never did it again, thankfully. He's 12 now :)

blub 5y ago
Remaining calm and explaining things is great, as long as it's clear that this will sometimes (maybe many times) not achieve anything. I like to think that they'll think about what they were told once they calm down :-)
- Aeolun 5y ago
  I find this to generally be true, but it’s hard to be calm in the moment, so you get angry first, and then talk it through later.
gardenhedge 5y ago
Another child might keep doing that or do it to other cars too. You had a well behaved child regardless of this one action. Some children are not well behaved
- jrochkind1 5y ago
  One question is if punishment (of what sort) will make "not well behaved" children any better behaved. Based on my observation, I wouldn't count on it. I see lots of "not well behaved" children getting strictly punished and their behavior just gets worse and worse. I know especially in the USA we want to talk about "what people deserve" rather than "what works" (vaccines and general covid response anyone? like we'd rather have someone to blame and have the right people have bad outcomes we think they deserve, than actually do things that work?), but what a mess.

afandian 5y ago

Screaming tantrums are a sign that something is wrong. It's your job as a parent to help the child deal with that situation. Not always figuring out the actual percieved problem (as they're humans, it's almost certainly never anything to do with logic and as toddlers it's probably impossible to even express). Probably not fixable in the moment. But yes, waiting, connecting with them, and helping them to calm, and process the emotions.

jcims 5y ago
OK but sir this is a Wendys and there are 12 people on their lunch break lined up behind you. Please collect your child from the floor, shut them up and move along.
- afandian 5y ago
  That's not incompatible. Of course you can't do that in the middle of the floor.
kortex 5y ago
> Probably not fixable in the moment. Precisely Sometimes (often) that something is merely a transient disconnect between their lizard brain reward/fear-centers and their rational cortex. There's not much to be done other than wait for the jello computer to stabilize itself. This is surprisingly applicable to humans of all ages.

Dave3of5 5y ago

Misbehave != tantrum. Normal child misbehave way more than they have tantrums (source: I have 2 children myself and my wife is a trained nursery nurse). Regardless with a tantrum you wait till they are calm then speak to them and explain to them what's the correct thing to do in that situation.

a_c 5y ago

I think I understand your sentiment here. Being a father of two (2 and 4), I think children younger than certain age cannot connect the negative result with the action they did. I yell, I lose candy, so what? I get to yell. Also, telling kids what not to do is different from what to do. You can tell kids don't do this, don't do that all day and they still fail to behave . My 2-yo tends to yell when he couldn't get the things he want. Telling him don't yell is futile. Taking snacks off his hand is even more futile. Giving him the stuff once he claim down and say "thank you" seems to help. On the other hand, punishing has its place. But use it sparingly. I always send both of them to time out if they fail to share toys or fight each other. There is no one size fit all. Every kids are different.

lupire 5y ago
pro-tip: send the toy to timeout instead. Consequences should be logically connected to behaviors.

PartiallyTyped 5y ago

I never screamed or threw tantrums after 2 or 3 years old. Screaming and tantrums happen only if parents show to the children that that is an easy way to get attention. I observed that catering to children and their tantrums does indeed result in problems down the road. I also observed that punishment never works. My dataset is 5 people. Disclaimer: I don't have children.

tonyarkles 5y ago

This, I think, depends a ton on the child and the relationship between the parent and child. One of the most amazing moments I can remember was at a dinner party with my ex’s extended family. There were lots of kids. During dinner, one of the kids (around 5 years old maybe?) started making a fuss about something. His mom leaned over and whispered something in his ear, his expression changed from upset to… kind of quizzical for a moment, and then I hear him whisper back “thanks!” His demeanour was perfect the rest of the meal, but in a happy friendly way, not the quiet sulking you often see after a child is chastised. After dinner I absolutely had to figure it out. He didn’t say “sorry” he said “thanks”?! I go up to the mom (who I’d never met) and say something like “that was amazing! What on earth did you say to him?” “Oh, all I said was ‘you’re being inappropriate.’ He’s a super conscientious kid, he doesn’t really need to be punished most of the time, he just needs a bit of clear, unemotional feedback. For him and me, yelling or threatening punishment escalates things, but this works great for us! Now, my daughter… that’s entirely different!”

pnutjam 5y ago
5 is totally different from 2. At that age they aren't even usually fully able to engage in a verbal discussion, which can be frustrating for them. I find patience and a tiered approach of punishments helps. Too many people jump to harsher punishment or longer timeouts and it's just punishing themselves because they have to miss that playdate or hold that kid in timeout. Start small and work your way up.
- tonyarkles 5y ago
  Oh absolutely, lol 2 is the unfortunate stage where they've gained the capacity for rapid mobility without a whole lot of higher-order brain development yet. And I totally agree on high-patience and slowly escalating :D. I've only had to deal with this with nieces and nephews, not full-time for a year, but yeah... patience patience patience.

comboy 5y ago

Parents have strong opinions, but I suggest the following exercise. Observe parents with their children. But instead of focusing on the kid throwing tantrum or one listening to their parent, focus on the parents. See what their approach is, how much attention they give to the kid and in what way they treat them - not just when handling the difficult situation. Kids are very different and definitely not rational. But if you spend some time doing the above, you can't help but notice some patterns. Some are genetics, sure, but I'm talking about their approach to the kid, this is something that's up to them. Also, there are many books compiling data from papers about both short and long term results of different parenting approaches. Specific approaches offered in books differ, but data, especially long term studies, is pretty consistent. Of course everything depends on your optimization function. One may choose kid's depression in later life over feeling embarrassed at Wendys ;) But more seriously, it really does depend what you want to achieve. You may want your kids to be happy, altruistic, empathetic, hard working, clever successful, well behaved, social, open minded or creative. These are different things, parts of them conflicting with one another, you can't have them all. I think this is a big part of the reason why there are so many disagreements about parenting.

Ma8ee 5y ago

I have a 2 year and a 5 year old. Screaming tantrums are exceedingly rare, and when they happen it is usually because I have failed as a parent with basic things like forgetting snack time, or they didn't get enough sleep. Who in their right mind thinks that yelling at the kids or punishing them in these kind of situations would improve the situation?