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Great list, but: > To keep young kids behaving on a car road trip, have a bag of their favorite candy and throw a piece out the window each time they misbehave

Great list, but: > To keep young kids behaving on a car road trip, have a bag of their favorite candy and throw a piece out the window each time they misbehave. That's terrible advice. Treat children with respect! They are very smart, they just lack experience. If they "misbehave", talk to them and explain why this is not good. If you can't find an explanation, chances are you are wrong and you should reevaluate your position. But never, never, never willfully hurt them by throwing away their favorite candy. So wrong on so many levels. This was a big surprise for me in this list as I mostly agree with the items before it. Or, to use a previous item: > You’ll get 10x better results by elevating good behavior rather than punishing bad behavior, especially in children and animals. Well said.

hilbert42 5y ago
Parenting styles differ, yours isn't one of discipline. If I hadn't had discipline at that age, I'd be hopelessly undisciplined now (in hindsight, I reckon my parents probably should have disciplined me even more than they did). Taking away my favorite things when I misbehaved worked wonders for me - I then did what I was told. "But never, never, never willfully hurt them by throwing away their favorite candy. So wrong on so many levels" Why, what are those levels? Discipline works by first explaining the rules and the reason for them then enforcing the rules with rewards and sanctions. It works for kids, it's the same for army recruits - in fact everyone. Mollycoddling kids who then never have a day of remorse throughout childhood deprives them of resilience later on in life. Resilience is so important that not instilling it into kids early on in life is of itself abuse. There's a huge difference between disciplining kids and willfully hurting them. In the above scanario the candy is thrown away but the parent has a choice of whether he or she is administrating discipline or undue cruelty. It's how one goes about it that matters.
arendtio 5y ago
Actually, I find that idea kinda funny and with some minor adjustments, I think it can be good parenting. So maybe you don't want to throw the candy out of the window, because that is not the proper way to dispose candy. However, if you add an empty bag for you, where you put the candy every time the kids misbehave, the kids will probably learn how to preserve their stash. In addition, you might want to add some rules, how they can get the candy back which has landed in your bag (like every time you 'misbehave'). That way you would level the playing field and it might become a game. After all, it is candy. Nothing the kids rely on to survive, but rather some pleasure drug.
seandoe 5y ago
willfully hurt? Come now. Sometimes kids are completely irrational, and like adults, need punishment. They aren't always in a state where they can absorb an "explaining". Sometimes they need to see that there are negative consequences of certain actions, especially when lines have been drawn and their actions cross those lines.
- igorkraw 5y ago
  Without armchair parenting: people always say this, but the better parents in my life I have have never ever seen using punishment, only consequences that were clearly communicated ahead of time. And for those parents, looking disappointed or hurt seems to cut their kids like knives without any further punishment needed.
  - scandox 5y ago
    I mean punishment is definitely not my style either, but the idea of "better parents" is a pretty tricky one. Kids are like cards out of a deck. You really can be dealt a very tough hand.
  - sillysaurusx 5y ago
    Those parents were fortunate not to have a sociopathic child. It was scary to see all the ways she’ll manipulate, and she’s not even 8. Punishment is unfortunately the only thing that she understands. You could call them consequences, but you’d be sugarcoating the truth. Her having a nuclear meltdown due to being sent to her room isn’t the parents’ fault, and it was eye opening to see just how genetic it is. (Her sister is as sweet as can be, and they were raised identically by the same parent. Interestingly, both kids are from the same two parents, but the father sadly died.) I’m not sure why siblings are so different, but I recently noticed it even in dogs — our doggo is an extroverted ham, whereas her sister is standoffish and proud.
    - simonh 5y ago
      One grew up initially with no other sibling around and was an only child, while the other has always had an older sibling around and never been an only child. The experience of having an older sibling is completely different to the experience of having a younger sibling. The two are inevitably treated differently by their parents in some ways due to the age difference. If they go to the same school one of them had to go in ‘cold’ while the other went somewhere familiar they had heard the older sibling talk about and had probably visited before, where the teachers already knew the elder sibling and knew some of their friends. It’s a very different experience and situation to live in.
john567 5y ago
I don't know. Have you met my kids? Not all kids are the same. Assuming the candy bag is big enough tossing a few isn't the worst thing to happen. I do agree that, as I read this and thought that there's some really nice advice in there this one struck me as slightly off putting. I can only speak from experience with my own kids and while I try to encourage them and to be respectful there are situations when they need to learn what happens when you cross the line. I'm not sure people turn out ok if they never experience painful moments and I'm not sure protecting our children from every repercussion is the best way. I'm undecided on this very topic and I certainly try to be positive and encouraging in every situation.
- atoav 5y ago
  I mean, tossing candy out of the window is littering. Unless you are the kind of parent who allows your kids to litter they will pick up on this inconsistency. This is the cardinal mistake many parents make: They assume you can just tell kids how they are supposed to behave, and they will somehow extract the right lesson from your words and learn it. In reality kids observe and learn from your behavior. That means the lesson here could as well be: "If you are the stronger one, you can make the rules. And the rules don't have to make sense and if you are in the right position you can break them yourself and be mean to others." Which is ofc the polar opposite of what you sought to teach them. If you reason with your kids even of they are unreasonable, you teach them that reasoning is a good way of dealing with problems. If you explain to them why they are not allowed to do certain things you teach them there are reasons and they should be curious about the reasons behind the rules.
  - john567 5y ago
    Completely agree. The littering is a no go for me. But the idea that the bag is some reward and that you can lose some of it if you miss-behave and then maybe earn it back. That's reasonable. I typically employ a progressive punishment in the form of a timeout. Go to your room for 5 minutes. If they don't respect that, it's 10 minutes up to 15 minutes. Culminating in: no iPad for you today. Sometimes I ask them what the consequences for breaking the rules should be. And I get very reasonable suggestions.
Aeolun 5y ago
Yeah, no. Obviously you can explain why what they are doing is bad (even if that’s just “it makes papa annoyed when you jump up and down on the backseat”), but after you’ve told them the consequences of proceeding to act that way, you have to follow through on it.
t-3 5y ago
> But never, never, never willfully hurt them by throwing away their favorite candy. So wrong on so many levels. Let's not be hyperbolic. Nobody is hurt by throwing away candy. I agree that it is a childish and probably unproductive method, but candy is NOT important.
- jamiek88 5y ago
  It is to a 4 year old.
  - simonh 5y ago
    I think this is a case where it varies hugely. For some kids I’m some families sweets are a huge deal and can be a contentious issue, to others they’re really not a big deal.
- afandian 5y ago
  I think the point is predicated on a situation where the candy is important ("favourite candy"). Substitute for anything else precious to the child. Intentionally destroying something precious, even a small thing, is indicative of something nasty. It serves only to build disconnection.
  - mordae 5y ago
    I don't read it as destruction. Kids should never be entitled to sweets, so the candy is not in any way theirs. And I don't think that they should receive sweets as a reward for being decent human beings. Sweets are extra. A sign of affection. A toast to achievement. I imagine a captain pouring a bottle to the sea every time someone gets to a fight an ship crossing the ocean.
    - afandian 5y ago
      (I say this as someone who doesn't give their child sweets!) IMHO if a child is behaving in a way that you don't like, it's your job, not theirs, to close that gap. Are you putting them in an overwhelming position, asking too much of them, emotionally distancing yourself? Do they have the mental capacity at that age to balance behaviour regulation with delayed gratification? (e.g. a long drive they can't cope with, the promise of sweets if you're "good") If you're bribing good behaviour with the promise of something, and you have that thing in hand, throwing it away just seems mean. That's different to not giving it to them. It's an irretrievable act, and shuts down any continued negotiation. Stigmatising natural behaviour, and then washing your hands of the situation (because you can't get that sweet back) doesn't sit right with me.
kortilla 5y ago
> Treat children with respect! They are very smart, they just lack experience. If they "misbehave", talk to them and explain why this is not good. This is so out of touch with the reality of toddlers that I can’t help but think you’ve either never had children, someone else raised your children, or you got really lucky with an abnormally docile kid. Screaming tantrums are hard to give rational explanations over. Do you wait your turn to speak between screams or just talk over them?
- c22 5y ago
  I tell the child "I can't understand you when you talk to me using that voice" over and over until the child calms themself down and delivers their grievance at a normal volume. Then I explain why things are the way they are and the tantrum re-erupts (usually) so we repeat the process two or three times. This technique requires a huge amount of patience, though, and it certainly doesn't get you to school on time.
- atoav 5y ago
  The whole field of behavioral science is something that exists and looking there for hints what actually works might be a good thing. Afaik the studies say that punishment is worse than ignoring wrong behavior in terms of getting you the outcome you want. Better even is giving positive feedback on positive behavior while of ignoring bad one. And yes, I had a toddler brother and had to test this based on actual, stressful reality.
  - devmor 5y ago
    My uncle (RIP), who was a child psychologist was a staunch proponent of treating his kids with respect and intellectual honesty. Like most kids, they still got into trouble and had major screw ups in their young lives. However I've never seen anyone who respected their parents more in my life. There were no beatings, no yelling, no destroying or selling of their property as punishment. And wouldn't you know it, when they got in trouble for something they did wrong - they didn't resent their parents for it. They were always expressive that their mistake (or the general view of society that what they did is a mistake) was the problem. It's hardly empirical evidence but it certainly convinced me.
curiousgal 5y ago
> If they "misbehave", talk to them and explain why this is not good. If you can't find an explanation, chances are you are wrong and you should reevaluate your position. Tell me you've never had kids without telling me you've never had kids. This is the type of parenting that made a wide appearance on Super Nanny back in the day.
- watwut 5y ago
  Periodic reminder that Super Nanny is scripted TV show. And just like other TV shows it is entertainment and not a documentary or manual.
wiether 5y ago
The worst part in this _advice_ to me is that they are basically teaching their child that littering is okay. If you want to punish your child because you are not patient enough to teach them correctly how to behave, at least don't do it while putting garbage everywhere. And also, using candy to _train_ kids is a good way to teach them bad food habits. But we came from different sides of the Atlantic so obviously we don't have the same opinion on food.
- atoav 5y ago
  On top of that: if they thought that kid before that littering is bad, the kid might spot that inconsistency and take away a different lesson altogether — that rules don't need to be followed if you are making them.
  - mordae 5y ago
    But there is a lesson. That the other person may or may not like you depending on how you behave and may or may not be willing to extend courtesy based on that. Some things in your life are your rights, but some things you only get when you actively try to make people around you happy. Obviously parents are taking care of your basic needs and it is hard for them to switch between parent, teacher and friend at the right moments, but they are never just one thing. Kids probably should not learn that parents are demigods who make the rules.
    - lupire 5y ago
      I trust that my kids will learn that I am imperfect, without me intentionally misbehaving.
    - atoav 5y ago
      > But there is a lesson. That the other person may or may not like you depending on how you behave and may or may not be willing to extend courtesy based on that. This might be true on an symbolic level. But I am afraid children don't learn all that well on an symbolic level. They learn by imitation. What you proposed would work if the parent refused to do something they would normally do (e.g. lift the kid on their shoulders), to teach them that it is okay to refuse to do something for others if they are mean to them. What doesn't work is if the parent does something they ordinarily wouldn't do and blame it on the kid aka "look what you made me do". What this teaches the kid is that they can blame their own behavior on others if they think these others give them a valid reason to do so. Parents always teach by what they do not by how they explain it.
andai 5y ago
(Full disclosure: I was once a child.) When someone punished me, all it did was harm my relationship with that person. I didn't ever do anything wrong on purpose (except some rare exceptions involving peer pressure, which I always regretted), so by definition when I was punished, from my point of view I was being punished for doing my best, which I considered a grave injustice. The fact that they assumed that I did something bad on purpose deeply offended me, and damaged the trust in the relationship, and bred resentment and bitterness. I'm autistic so perhaps this is an atypical perspective—from what I've heard we seem to have more of a thing for justice. I understand there are some naturally naughty kids out there. But I genuinely believe that most kids want to be good, where "good" is defined as "behaving in a way that I get approval from my parents". The question is to what degree those ethics are actually internalized rather than just performed when someone is looking...
- mellavora 5y ago
  (full disclosure: I also was once a child) you write that your experience as an autistic is that you have "more of a thing for justice" than might be expected from the general population. I read that as an aspect of autism is to serve as a magnifying lens on on particular aspect of what it means to be human. So, the trauma you report from being punished might have been felt stronger by you than it would have by someone with a different mental makeup, but that doesn't mean that the other person didn't feel it. Conclusion: Your hightened awareness allows you to make explicit something which to others is just vaguely troubling. Thus your view is closer to the universal human truth than those who deny it.
- blub 5y ago
  I don't think you're right. Kids are naturally flexible, curious and have no notion of right or wrong. They will constantly try things out and need boundaries for their own good and for the good of the family. How these boundaries are set varies by community, but some form of punishment is very very common.
  - dsego 5y ago
    Boundaries are good, but extortion and intimidation is not the way to do it. You can withhold candy but throwing it away is hurtful and cruel. Speaking as someone who is currently dealing with a very disobedient 2-year old. In any case, to keep kids behaving on a car road trip, you need to keep them busy and take care of their basic needs, being still and strapped in the back seat is not fun.
folli 5y ago
As someone who already thinks very little of people throwing their cigarette butts out of the window, I would not want to set an example that littering is acceptable to my own kids.
Kiro 5y ago
Children misbehave because they are intrinsically evil, as all humans are. With experience comes manners and the understanding that suppressing your evil nature is beneficial to yourself. Are you treating other unleashed monsters with the same respect?
- simonh 5y ago
  Children are naturally ‘wild’ in some sense. They don’t know what the social rules are, can be selfish and resentful. They also have inherent social traits though, they are capable of love, they understand give and take, you can make agreements with them and negotiate. Often when they break social rules it’s a mistake rather than premeditated wrongdoing. Hungry or tired children can be particularly unruly. None of this adds up to evil. Some children can be very wicked. Usually that’s a consequence of a very unpleasant home environment. Some kids have unbelievably awful parents.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- bruce343434 5y ago
  define evil?
EnKopVand 5y ago
I’m surprised you see those two pieces of “advice” as being different schools of pedagogy, because to me they are very much the same. The latter is a better approach, but it’s still a very flawed approach to childcare that were largely ”deprecated” in the 90ies in my country. Because neither of them deals with the child as more than a piece of clay, or an, animal as the author even highlighted. Don’t get me wrong. Both ways work, and more modern pedagogy builds on the lessons learned from these approaches, but the best way to deal with crime and punishment isn’t these methods, it’s to deal with children rather similar to how you would deal with an adult but then comfort them as though they are children. If that sounds weird to you just imagine how annoying it would be for you if your boss started complimenting you on every thing you do that aligns with what they want to cultivate in you. I know some people might like that, but most of us would feel like we were being treated like idiots. The effect is a little different in children, but some will still feel that way and others will grow up to be very compliment seeking and spend decades in therapy learning how they I be themselves. What you’ll want to do is to calmly explain why X behaviour is amazing and how proud you are of it. When that is actually true, and then only for as long as it takes for your children to learn that saying thanks when someone give them something is good. Similarly you calmly explain why Y behaviour is terrible, but it’s not like you can’t use reasonable amounts of punishment to teach about consequences. By reasonable I mean things similar to “if you don’t stop hitting the cat in the head with your doll now that I’ve explained why not to do so 20 times, then I’m going to take the doll away for the rest of the day”. The biggest influence, and most important advice, is consistency. If you say that you’re going to take away the doll for the rest of the day, or when you say no to ice cream, then you absolutely have to follow through. Except when you were wrong, or when you’ve greatly miscalculated the importance of something, and if you’re consistent enough otherwise, then this will simply teach your child that it’s ok to be wrong and admit it. On the flip side of this, you actually have to say yes. One of the biggest challenges I personally faced when I had my first child was that it’s ok to sometimes have ice cream along with your breakfast within modern pedagogy. But it turned out that by saying yes when there is no reason not to, then it becomes really easy to say no because a no is just accepted as your offspring knows that it won’t always be a no. I think a lot of good parenting is working on yourself though. I mean, why are you getting worked up over what a 4 year old is doing? You have an infinite amount of patience compared to them.
www_harka_com 5y ago
"Anything you say before the word “but” does not count." :D
rackjack 5y ago
Same vibe as diners who put down money on the table and take some away every time they don't feel doted on enough
- afandian 5y ago
  They were probably mistreated this way as children!
- Dylan16807 5y ago
  The two main problems with that are 1) caused by tipping in the US being awful and 2) it being patronizing. We should fix tipping, and it's not inherently a problem to be patronizing to children.
gverrilla 5y ago
The global society is currently trying to overcome gender, race and sexuality issues, while our children are still being treated mostly like slaves - it's for the sure the next fronteer, but maybe it will take a while. in no particular order: a. their freedom of speech is largely limited; b. their freedom of movement is almost non-existant; c. they do not have the right to own property; d. parents have an immense power over them, with zero oversight in most cases, in a manner analogue to egypt pharaoh's or something (also, like pharaohs, they claim the children are THEIR PROPERTY, just like slaves in commerce); e. they are ridicularized and treated as incapable a lot of times and get harshly criticized while adult society is a clear disaster; f. they get their creativity and will to live supressed, repressed; g. they are coerced into taking part in school brainwashing, a lot of times having more responsabilities than their parents; h. they don't get paid for their work; i. the child can escape from the cancer of nuclear family, but in most cases if they choose to do so they will end up in even worst swamps; j. children get lied to, tricked and manipulated all the time; k. beyond being denied the freedom of speech, a lot of times they are more deeply denied the broad freedom of thought, being forced into some religious brainfuc* of some sort; l. not to mention all direct abuse like free labor, physical and/or verbal abuse, all kinds of prejudice, etc; m. marginalized everywhere by cities, places and adults that ain't safe or fun; etc "All that which might be destroyed should be destroyed, in order to free children from slavery" A saying from an old revolutionary.
- InCityDreams 5y ago
  I wish icould re-parent my kids, i made so many mistakes. But, talking to others, everyone does. It's how they end up that cou nts. I've never read so mu
- Sirened 5y ago
  100%. I don't know where the seemingly common believe that being a kid is easy. It's simple in the sense that you have no choices to make, but that lack of choice is exactly what makes it so difficult. Being an adult is so much easier than being a kid because you can care for yourself and self-determine
- dudeman13 5y ago
verisimi 5y ago
I love the advice he gives - even that piece. If the kids are being bratty, they need to learn - beseeching them to be sensible will only get you so far. Throwing some sweets out the window is hardly a bad thing anyway - the way I see it, the more you throw away, the kinder you are being to your kids! Though that might not be how they see it...
- kwinten 5y ago
  It's literally turning a teachable moment into a resentful one while simultaneously teaching them that littering is okay. Please point me to the parts of this method that are good or effective.
  - tsol 5y ago
    Just take the candy out of the wrapper. Sugar disintegrates.
Cthulhu_ 5y ago
Treat them with respect, sure, but set clear boundaries. There's a lot of parent that try to be reasonable and respectful to their kids, going into long rants about what they did was wrong and all that, but at some point you need to be curt, direct, and blunt, and take a stand. Like on the car road trip, instead of dragging it out with individual pieces of candy (that'll take forever), stop the car and give them a Stern Talking To. Interrupt the flow of the moment.
- pjerem 5y ago
  Haha, I did that multiple times back from school with my boy. If he was acting wrong or making a "tantrum" (probably after a hard long day at school), I would just stop the car somewhere and say "Do what you want but I'll restart the car once you are calm". It worked every time. He stopped after a minute or two. And then we were able to talk about what was wrong. Just interrupting the flow shows that something must stop now for the normal life to continue. And then everyone can speak calmly.
helpfulmandrill 5y ago
The worst thing about this is using food as a reward/punishment. Sets up a really bad relationship with food.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
jefc1111 5y ago
Came here to say this. Also, the littering aspect is not so great. As you say, this item seems out of place on an otherwise surprisingly consistently convincing list. Another child-related one is good advice "For the best results with your children, spend only half the money you think you should, but double the time with them."
rsp1984 5y ago
Unfortunately the candy bit is not the only bad piece of advice on the list. It's honestly a very mixed bag. > Anything you say before the word “but” does not count. This gets repeated a lot but it's still BS. Lots of things are nuanced. Deal with it. > When you forgive others, they may not notice, but you will heal. Forgiveness is not something we do for others; it is a gift to ourselves. Another one. Forgiveness is the result of a process, not the start. You have to heal before you can forgive, not as a result of it. I suspect anyone who claims otherwise simply has no idea what they're talking about. This is such basic stuff. > Life lessons will be presented to you in the order they are needed. Guess he should tell that to people who've been the victim of war crimes or similar. Dangerous advice to give out in general. > To rapidly reveal the true character of a person you just met, move them onto an abysmally slow internet connection. Observe. I hope he's only joking here. > For a great payoff be especially curious about the things you are not interested in. The only thing that that accomplishes is having a bad time. Double down on your strengths and delegate the rest instead.
- WHA8m 5y ago
  > Anything you say before the word “but” does not count. This is particularly stupid, because you can simply switch the sentence. If you know someone who goes by this credo, just: Yes, but no -> No, but yes.
- ClumsyPilot 5y ago
  > Life lessons will be presented to you in the order they are needed. This is like the catholic mantra of. 'God challanges us' and 'evil is in this world to test us' Blins to the horrors of the world and all the ruined lives of innocent people
everdrive 5y ago
I think kids are so varied that it's hard to find universal advice for how to punish kids, except when it is sufficiently broad.
jamal-kumar 5y ago
I have a vivid memory around the late 90s on a family roadtrip throug the rocky mountains seeing the car drive in front of us a bit erratically until a fucking entire ass nintendo 64 connected to a couple of controllers came flying out of the window of that car and we had to dodge it. Uh yeah don't throw shit out of car windows to punish your kids. It's literally littering, and it's really dangerous. Always wondered why anyone would think this is OK and I wonder how much insanely weird parenting 'tips' like this have to do with it
jliptzin 5y ago
That one also stuck out at me. If I were a kid in that situation I’d find it funny that my parent was littering every few minutes.
FalconSensei 5y ago
> throw a piece out the window Also, don't throw thrash out the window and don't teach your kids to do it.
- ncmncm 5y ago
  It is an appalling thing to do. That is the whole point! They will not be learning to do it, they will be learning to try to prevent it.
DeathArrow 5y ago
>This was a big surprise for me in this list as I mostly agree with the items before it. It doesn't matter if someone agrees or not. These are Kevin Kelly's advices, things he believes as being true and useful. You can start your own list. Also, "modern parenting" as in treat the children like adults, never contradict children, never punish children, children are always right while adults are always wrong, seems to me that failed to produce successful adults. It produced selfish adults that think they are entitled to anything without putting any work.
iLoveOncall 5y ago
From the list: > Anything you say before the word “but” does not count. I'll agree with this one regarding your comment.

hilbert42 5y ago

Parenting styles differ, yours isn't one of discipline. If I hadn't had discipline at that age, I'd be hopelessly undisciplined now (in hindsight, I reckon my parents probably should have disciplined me even more than they did). Taking away my favorite things when I misbehaved worked wonders for me - I then did what I was told. "But never, never, never willfully hurt them by throwing away their favorite candy. So wrong on so many levels" Why, what are those levels? Discipline works by first explaining the rules and the reason for them then enforcing the rules with rewards and sanctions. It works for kids, it's the same for army recruits - in fact everyone. Mollycoddling kids who then never have a day of remorse throughout childhood deprives them of resilience later on in life. Resilience is so important that not instilling it into kids early on in life is of itself abuse. There's a huge difference between disciplining kids and willfully hurting them. In the above scanario the candy is thrown away but the parent has a choice of whether he or she is administrating discipline or undue cruelty. It's how one goes about it that matters.

arendtio 5y ago

Actually, I find that idea kinda funny and with some minor adjustments, I think it can be good parenting. So maybe you don't want to throw the candy out of the window, because that is not the proper way to dispose candy. However, if you add an empty bag for you, where you put the candy every time the kids misbehave, the kids will probably learn how to preserve their stash. In addition, you might want to add some rules, how they can get the candy back which has landed in your bag (like every time you 'misbehave'). That way you would level the playing field and it might become a game. After all, it is candy. Nothing the kids rely on to survive, but rather some pleasure drug.

seandoe 5y ago

willfully hurt? Come now. Sometimes kids are completely irrational, and like adults, need punishment. They aren't always in a state where they can absorb an "explaining". Sometimes they need to see that there are negative consequences of certain actions, especially when lines have been drawn and their actions cross those lines.

igorkraw 5y ago
Without armchair parenting: people always say this, but the better parents in my life I have have never ever seen using punishment, only consequences that were clearly communicated ahead of time. And for those parents, looking disappointed or hurt seems to cut their kids like knives without any further punishment needed.
- scandox 5y ago
  I mean punishment is definitely not my style either, but the idea of "better parents" is a pretty tricky one. Kids are like cards out of a deck. You really can be dealt a very tough hand.
- sillysaurusx 5y ago
  Those parents were fortunate not to have a sociopathic child. It was scary to see all the ways she’ll manipulate, and she’s not even 8. Punishment is unfortunately the only thing that she understands. You could call them consequences, but you’d be sugarcoating the truth. Her having a nuclear meltdown due to being sent to her room isn’t the parents’ fault, and it was eye opening to see just how genetic it is. (Her sister is as sweet as can be, and they were raised identically by the same parent. Interestingly, both kids are from the same two parents, but the father sadly died.) I’m not sure why siblings are so different, but I recently noticed it even in dogs — our doggo is an extroverted ham, whereas her sister is standoffish and proud.
  - simonh 5y ago
    One grew up initially with no other sibling around and was an only child, while the other has always had an older sibling around and never been an only child. The experience of having an older sibling is completely different to the experience of having a younger sibling. The two are inevitably treated differently by their parents in some ways due to the age difference. If they go to the same school one of them had to go in ‘cold’ while the other went somewhere familiar they had heard the older sibling talk about and had probably visited before, where the teachers already knew the elder sibling and knew some of their friends. It’s a very different experience and situation to live in.

john567 5y ago

I don't know. Have you met my kids? Not all kids are the same. Assuming the candy bag is big enough tossing a few isn't the worst thing to happen. I do agree that, as I read this and thought that there's some really nice advice in there this one struck me as slightly off putting. I can only speak from experience with my own kids and while I try to encourage them and to be respectful there are situations when they need to learn what happens when you cross the line. I'm not sure people turn out ok if they never experience painful moments and I'm not sure protecting our children from every repercussion is the best way. I'm undecided on this very topic and I certainly try to be positive and encouraging in every situation.

atoav 5y ago
I mean, tossing candy out of the window is littering. Unless you are the kind of parent who allows your kids to litter they will pick up on this inconsistency. This is the cardinal mistake many parents make: They assume you can just tell kids how they are supposed to behave, and they will somehow extract the right lesson from your words and learn it. In reality kids observe and learn from your behavior. That means the lesson here could as well be: "If you are the stronger one, you can make the rules. And the rules don't have to make sense and if you are in the right position you can break them yourself and be mean to others." Which is ofc the polar opposite of what you sought to teach them. If you reason with your kids even of they are unreasonable, you teach them that reasoning is a good way of dealing with problems. If you explain to them why they are not allowed to do certain things you teach them there are reasons and they should be curious about the reasons behind the rules.
- john567 5y ago
  Completely agree. The littering is a no go for me. But the idea that the bag is some reward and that you can lose some of it if you miss-behave and then maybe earn it back. That's reasonable. I typically employ a progressive punishment in the form of a timeout. Go to your room for 5 minutes. If they don't respect that, it's 10 minutes up to 15 minutes. Culminating in: no iPad for you today. Sometimes I ask them what the consequences for breaking the rules should be. And I get very reasonable suggestions.

Aeolun 5y ago

Yeah, no. Obviously you can explain why what they are doing is bad (even if that’s just “it makes papa annoyed when you jump up and down on the backseat”), but after you’ve told them the consequences of proceeding to act that way, you have to follow through on it.

t-3 5y ago

> But never, never, never willfully hurt them by throwing away their favorite candy. So wrong on so many levels. Let's not be hyperbolic. Nobody is hurt by throwing away candy. I agree that it is a childish and probably unproductive method, but candy is NOT important.

jamiek88 5y ago
It is to a 4 year old.
- simonh 5y ago
  I think this is a case where it varies hugely. For some kids I’m some families sweets are a huge deal and can be a contentious issue, to others they’re really not a big deal.
afandian 5y ago
I think the point is predicated on a situation where the candy is important ("favourite candy"). Substitute for anything else precious to the child. Intentionally destroying something precious, even a small thing, is indicative of something nasty. It serves only to build disconnection.
- mordae 5y ago
  I don't read it as destruction. Kids should never be entitled to sweets, so the candy is not in any way theirs. And I don't think that they should receive sweets as a reward for being decent human beings. Sweets are extra. A sign of affection. A toast to achievement. I imagine a captain pouring a bottle to the sea every time someone gets to a fight an ship crossing the ocean.
  - afandian 5y ago
    (I say this as someone who doesn't give their child sweets!) IMHO if a child is behaving in a way that you don't like, it's your job, not theirs, to close that gap. Are you putting them in an overwhelming position, asking too much of them, emotionally distancing yourself? Do they have the mental capacity at that age to balance behaviour regulation with delayed gratification? (e.g. a long drive they can't cope with, the promise of sweets if you're "good") If you're bribing good behaviour with the promise of something, and you have that thing in hand, throwing it away just seems mean. That's different to not giving it to them. It's an irretrievable act, and shuts down any continued negotiation. Stigmatising natural behaviour, and then washing your hands of the situation (because you can't get that sweet back) doesn't sit right with me.

kortilla 5y ago

> Treat children with respect! They are very smart, they just lack experience. If they "misbehave", talk to them and explain why this is not good. This is so out of touch with the reality of toddlers that I can’t help but think you’ve either never had children, someone else raised your children, or you got really lucky with an abnormally docile kid. Screaming tantrums are hard to give rational explanations over. Do you wait your turn to speak between screams or just talk over them?

c22 5y ago
I tell the child "I can't understand you when you talk to me using that voice" over and over until the child calms themself down and delivers their grievance at a normal volume. Then I explain why things are the way they are and the tantrum re-erupts (usually) so we repeat the process two or three times. This technique requires a huge amount of patience, though, and it certainly doesn't get you to school on time.
atoav 5y ago
The whole field of behavioral science is something that exists and looking there for hints what actually works might be a good thing. Afaik the studies say that punishment is worse than ignoring wrong behavior in terms of getting you the outcome you want. Better even is giving positive feedback on positive behavior while of ignoring bad one. And yes, I had a toddler brother and had to test this based on actual, stressful reality.
- devmor 5y ago
  My uncle (RIP), who was a child psychologist was a staunch proponent of treating his kids with respect and intellectual honesty. Like most kids, they still got into trouble and had major screw ups in their young lives. However I've never seen anyone who respected their parents more in my life. There were no beatings, no yelling, no destroying or selling of their property as punishment. And wouldn't you know it, when they got in trouble for something they did wrong - they didn't resent their parents for it. They were always expressive that their mistake (or the general view of society that what they did is a mistake) was the problem. It's hardly empirical evidence but it certainly convinced me.

curiousgal 5y ago

> If they "misbehave", talk to them and explain why this is not good. If you can't find an explanation, chances are you are wrong and you should reevaluate your position. Tell me you've never had kids without telling me you've never had kids. This is the type of parenting that made a wide appearance on Super Nanny back in the day.

watwut 5y ago
Periodic reminder that Super Nanny is scripted TV show. And just like other TV shows it is entertainment and not a documentary or manual.

wiether 5y ago

The worst part in this _advice_ to me is that they are basically teaching their child that littering is okay. If you want to punish your child because you are not patient enough to teach them correctly how to behave, at least don't do it while putting garbage everywhere. And also, using candy to _train_ kids is a good way to teach them bad food habits. But we came from different sides of the Atlantic so obviously we don't have the same opinion on food.

atoav 5y ago
On top of that: if they thought that kid before that littering is bad, the kid might spot that inconsistency and take away a different lesson altogether — that rules don't need to be followed if you are making them.
- mordae 5y ago
  But there is a lesson. That the other person may or may not like you depending on how you behave and may or may not be willing to extend courtesy based on that. Some things in your life are your rights, but some things you only get when you actively try to make people around you happy. Obviously parents are taking care of your basic needs and it is hard for them to switch between parent, teacher and friend at the right moments, but they are never just one thing. Kids probably should not learn that parents are demigods who make the rules.
  - lupire 5y ago
    I trust that my kids will learn that I am imperfect, without me intentionally misbehaving.
  - atoav 5y ago
    > But there is a lesson. That the other person may or may not like you depending on how you behave and may or may not be willing to extend courtesy based on that. This might be true on an symbolic level. But I am afraid children don't learn all that well on an symbolic level. They learn by imitation. What you proposed would work if the parent refused to do something they would normally do (e.g. lift the kid on their shoulders), to teach them that it is okay to refuse to do something for others if they are mean to them. What doesn't work is if the parent does something they ordinarily wouldn't do and blame it on the kid aka "look what you made me do". What this teaches the kid is that they can blame their own behavior on others if they think these others give them a valid reason to do so. Parents always teach by what they do not by how they explain it.

andai 5y ago

(Full disclosure: I was once a child.) When someone punished me, all it did was harm my relationship with that person. I didn't ever do anything wrong on purpose (except some rare exceptions involving peer pressure, which I always regretted), so by definition when I was punished, from my point of view I was being punished for doing my best, which I considered a grave injustice. The fact that they assumed that I did something bad on purpose deeply offended me, and damaged the trust in the relationship, and bred resentment and bitterness. I'm autistic so perhaps this is an atypical perspective—from what I've heard we seem to have more of a thing for justice. I understand there are some naturally naughty kids out there. But I genuinely believe that most kids want to be good, where "good" is defined as "behaving in a way that I get approval from my parents". The question is to what degree those ethics are actually internalized rather than just performed when someone is looking...

mellavora 5y ago
(full disclosure: I also was once a child) you write that your experience as an autistic is that you have "more of a thing for justice" than might be expected from the general population. I read that as an aspect of autism is to serve as a magnifying lens on on particular aspect of what it means to be human. So, the trauma you report from being punished might have been felt stronger by you than it would have by someone with a different mental makeup, but that doesn't mean that the other person didn't feel it. Conclusion: Your hightened awareness allows you to make explicit something which to others is just vaguely troubling. Thus your view is closer to the universal human truth than those who deny it.
blub 5y ago
I don't think you're right. Kids are naturally flexible, curious and have no notion of right or wrong. They will constantly try things out and need boundaries for their own good and for the good of the family. How these boundaries are set varies by community, but some form of punishment is very very common.
- dsego 5y ago
  Boundaries are good, but extortion and intimidation is not the way to do it. You can withhold candy but throwing it away is hurtful and cruel. Speaking as someone who is currently dealing with a very disobedient 2-year old. In any case, to keep kids behaving on a car road trip, you need to keep them busy and take care of their basic needs, being still and strapped in the back seat is not fun.

folli 5y ago

As someone who already thinks very little of people throwing their cigarette butts out of the window, I would not want to set an example that littering is acceptable to my own kids.

Kiro 5y ago

Children misbehave because they are intrinsically evil, as all humans are. With experience comes manners and the understanding that suppressing your evil nature is beneficial to yourself. Are you treating other unleashed monsters with the same respect?

simonh 5y ago
Children are naturally ‘wild’ in some sense. They don’t know what the social rules are, can be selfish and resentful. They also have inherent social traits though, they are capable of love, they understand give and take, you can make agreements with them and negotiate. Often when they break social rules it’s a mistake rather than premeditated wrongdoing. Hungry or tired children can be particularly unruly. None of this adds up to evil. Some children can be very wicked. Usually that’s a consequence of a very unpleasant home environment. Some kids have unbelievably awful parents.
deleted 5y ago
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bruce343434 5y ago
define evil?

EnKopVand 5y ago

I’m surprised you see those two pieces of “advice” as being different schools of pedagogy, because to me they are very much the same. The latter is a better approach, but it’s still a very flawed approach to childcare that were largely ”deprecated” in the 90ies in my country. Because neither of them deals with the child as more than a piece of clay, or an, animal as the author even highlighted. Don’t get me wrong. Both ways work, and more modern pedagogy builds on the lessons learned from these approaches, but the best way to deal with crime and punishment isn’t these methods, it’s to deal with children rather similar to how you would deal with an adult but then comfort them as though they are children. If that sounds weird to you just imagine how annoying it would be for you if your boss started complimenting you on every thing you do that aligns with what they want to cultivate in you. I know some people might like that, but most of us would feel like we were being treated like idiots. The effect is a little different in children, but some will still feel that way and others will grow up to be very compliment seeking and spend decades in therapy learning how they I be themselves. What you’ll want to do is to calmly explain why X behaviour is amazing and how proud you are of it. When that is actually true, and then only for as long as it takes for your children to learn that saying thanks when someone give them something is good. Similarly you calmly explain why Y behaviour is terrible, but it’s not like you can’t use reasonable amounts of punishment to teach about consequences. By reasonable I mean things similar to “if you don’t stop hitting the cat in the head with your doll now that I’ve explained why not to do so 20 times, then I’m going to take the doll away for the rest of the day”. The biggest influence, and most important advice, is consistency. If you say that you’re going to take away the doll for the rest of the day, or when you say no to ice cream, then you absolutely have to follow through. Except when you were wrong, or when you’ve greatly miscalculated the importance of something, and if you’re consistent enough otherwise, then this will simply teach your child that it’s ok to be wrong and admit it. On the flip side of this, you actually have to say yes. One of the biggest challenges I personally faced when I had my first child was that it’s ok to sometimes have ice cream along with your breakfast within modern pedagogy. But it turned out that by saying yes when there is no reason not to, then it becomes really easy to say no because a no is just accepted as your offspring knows that it won’t always be a no. I think a lot of good parenting is working on yourself though. I mean, why are you getting worked up over what a 4 year old is doing? You have an infinite amount of patience compared to them.

www_harka_com 5y ago

"Anything you say before the word “but” does not count." :D

rackjack 5y ago

Same vibe as diners who put down money on the table and take some away every time they don't feel doted on enough

afandian 5y ago
They were probably mistreated this way as children!
Dylan16807 5y ago
The two main problems with that are 1) caused by tipping in the US being awful and 2) it being patronizing. We should fix tipping, and it's not inherently a problem to be patronizing to children.

gverrilla 5y ago

The global society is currently trying to overcome gender, race and sexuality issues, while our children are still being treated mostly like slaves - it's for the sure the next fronteer, but maybe it will take a while. in no particular order: a. their freedom of speech is largely limited; b. their freedom of movement is almost non-existant; c. they do not have the right to own property; d. parents have an immense power over them, with zero oversight in most cases, in a manner analogue to egypt pharaoh's or something (also, like pharaohs, they claim the children are THEIR PROPERTY, just like slaves in commerce); e. they are ridicularized and treated as incapable a lot of times and get harshly criticized while adult society is a clear disaster; f. they get their creativity and will to live supressed, repressed; g. they are coerced into taking part in school brainwashing, a lot of times having more responsabilities than their parents; h. they don't get paid for their work; i. the child can escape from the cancer of nuclear family, but in most cases if they choose to do so they will end up in even worst swamps; j. children get lied to, tricked and manipulated all the time; k. beyond being denied the freedom of speech, a lot of times they are more deeply denied the broad freedom of thought, being forced into some religious brainfuc* of some sort; l. not to mention all direct abuse like free labor, physical and/or verbal abuse, all kinds of prejudice, etc; m. marginalized everywhere by cities, places and adults that ain't safe or fun; etc "All that which might be destroyed should be destroyed, in order to free children from slavery" A saying from an old revolutionary.

InCityDreams 5y ago
I wish icould re-parent my kids, i made so many mistakes. But, talking to others, everyone does. It's how they end up that cou nts. I've never read so mu
Sirened 5y ago
100%. I don't know where the seemingly common believe that being a kid is easy. It's simple in the sense that you have no choices to make, but that lack of choice is exactly what makes it so difficult. Being an adult is so much easier than being a kid because you can care for yourself and self-determine
dudeman13 5y ago

verisimi 5y ago

I love the advice he gives - even that piece. If the kids are being bratty, they need to learn - beseeching them to be sensible will only get you so far. Throwing some sweets out the window is hardly a bad thing anyway - the way I see it, the more you throw away, the kinder you are being to your kids! Though that might not be how they see it...

kwinten 5y ago
It's literally turning a teachable moment into a resentful one while simultaneously teaching them that littering is okay. Please point me to the parts of this method that are good or effective.
- tsol 5y ago
  Just take the candy out of the wrapper. Sugar disintegrates.

Cthulhu_ 5y ago

Treat them with respect, sure, but set clear boundaries. There's a lot of parent that try to be reasonable and respectful to their kids, going into long rants about what they did was wrong and all that, but at some point you need to be curt, direct, and blunt, and take a stand. Like on the car road trip, instead of dragging it out with individual pieces of candy (that'll take forever), stop the car and give them a Stern Talking To. Interrupt the flow of the moment.

pjerem 5y ago
Haha, I did that multiple times back from school with my boy. If he was acting wrong or making a "tantrum" (probably after a hard long day at school), I would just stop the car somewhere and say "Do what you want but I'll restart the car once you are calm". It worked every time. He stopped after a minute or two. And then we were able to talk about what was wrong. Just interrupting the flow shows that something must stop now for the normal life to continue. And then everyone can speak calmly.

helpfulmandrill 5y ago

The worst thing about this is using food as a reward/punishment. Sets up a really bad relationship with food.

deleted 5y ago

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jefc1111 5y ago

Came here to say this. Also, the littering aspect is not so great. As you say, this item seems out of place on an otherwise surprisingly consistently convincing list. Another child-related one is good advice "For the best results with your children, spend only half the money you think you should, but double the time with them."

rsp1984 5y ago

Unfortunately the candy bit is not the only bad piece of advice on the list. It's honestly a very mixed bag. > Anything you say before the word “but” does not count. This gets repeated a lot but it's still BS. Lots of things are nuanced. Deal with it. > When you forgive others, they may not notice, but you will heal. Forgiveness is not something we do for others; it is a gift to ourselves. Another one. Forgiveness is the result of a process, not the start. You have to heal before you can forgive, not as a result of it. I suspect anyone who claims otherwise simply has no idea what they're talking about. This is such basic stuff. > Life lessons will be presented to you in the order they are needed. Guess he should tell that to people who've been the victim of war crimes or similar. Dangerous advice to give out in general. > To rapidly reveal the true character of a person you just met, move them onto an abysmally slow internet connection. Observe. I hope he's only joking here. > For a great payoff be especially curious about the things you are not interested in. The only thing that that accomplishes is having a bad time. Double down on your strengths and delegate the rest instead.

WHA8m 5y ago
> Anything you say before the word “but” does not count. This is particularly stupid, because you can simply switch the sentence. If you know someone who goes by this credo, just: Yes, but no -> No, but yes.
ClumsyPilot 5y ago
> Life lessons will be presented to you in the order they are needed. This is like the catholic mantra of. 'God challanges us' and 'evil is in this world to test us' Blins to the horrors of the world and all the ruined lives of innocent people

everdrive 5y ago

I think kids are so varied that it's hard to find universal advice for how to punish kids, except when it is sufficiently broad.

jamal-kumar 5y ago

I have a vivid memory around the late 90s on a family roadtrip throug the rocky mountains seeing the car drive in front of us a bit erratically until a fucking entire ass nintendo 64 connected to a couple of controllers came flying out of the window of that car and we had to dodge it. Uh yeah don't throw shit out of car windows to punish your kids. It's literally littering, and it's really dangerous. Always wondered why anyone would think this is OK and I wonder how much insanely weird parenting 'tips' like this have to do with it

jliptzin 5y ago

That one also stuck out at me. If I were a kid in that situation I’d find it funny that my parent was littering every few minutes.

FalconSensei 5y ago

> throw a piece out the window Also, don't throw thrash out the window and don't teach your kids to do it.

ncmncm 5y ago
It is an appalling thing to do. That is the whole point! They will not be learning to do it, they will be learning to try to prevent it.

DeathArrow 5y ago

>This was a big surprise for me in this list as I mostly agree with the items before it. It doesn't matter if someone agrees or not. These are Kevin Kelly's advices, things he believes as being true and useful. You can start your own list. Also, "modern parenting" as in treat the children like adults, never contradict children, never punish children, children are always right while adults are always wrong, seems to me that failed to produce successful adults. It produced selfish adults that think they are entitled to anything without putting any work.

iLoveOncall 5y ago

From the list: > Anything you say before the word “but” does not count. I'll agree with this one regarding your comment.