16 ms·

I actually think that this is just one example of many across a ton of disciplines where people like Nurses basically are forced to deal with costs and responsi

• TomSwirly 4y ago
  > courts systems are overwhelmed and understaffed so criminals just enter and exit like a revolving door, You're delusional. America has more people in jail, serving longer sentences, than _any country in history_.
  • NoGravitas 4y ago
    Don't know why you're being downvoted on this. It's simply a fact. Is it because you didn't provide a citation? Here: https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/28/us/mass-incarceration-five-key-facts/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/28/us/mass-incarceration-five-ke...
• FireBeyond 4y ago
  > and see undergraduate classes are taught by grad students who make ~30k a year Hah, wasn't it UCLA who recently got excoriated for advertising for grad students to teach undergraduate classes with this stellar line: "This is an uncompensated position"?
• n0on3 4y ago
  This. So much this. In so many fields, it's actually hard to find one where this is not the case.
• triska 4y ago
  I think this is due to Pournelle's Iron Law of Bureaucracy: https://www.jerrypournelle.com/reports/jerryp/iron.html https://www.jerrypournelle.com/reports/jerryp/iron.html "In any bureaucratic organization there will be two kinds of people: First, there will be those who are devoted to the goals of the organization. Examples are dedicated classroom teachers in an educational bureaucracy, many of the engineers and launch technicians and scientists at NASA, even some agricultural scientists and advisors in the former Soviet Union collective farming administration. Secondly, there will be those dedicated to the organization itself. Examples are many of the administrators in the education system, many professors of education, many teachers union officials, much of the NASA headquarters staff, etc. The Iron Law states that in every case the second group will gain and keep control of the organization. It will write the rules, and control promotions within the organization."
  • tomrod 4y ago
    You just explained something I saw on many establishing subreddits!
    • deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    • TomSwirly 4y ago
      Here's the original author: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_oligarchy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_oligarchy
      • sydbarrett74 4y ago
  • ayngg 4y ago
    Thanks for the link, I'll check it out.
  • bumby 4y ago
    As somebody with experience at NASA, this made me chortle. I would NOT characterize the average civil servant that I worked with as "devoted to the goals of the organization." That includes the lowest level field organizations. Unfortunately, for the average employee, it eventually gets treated like any other job. It's possible this dichotomy works in theory only. Being generous, it's possible they just disagree about the goals of the organization.
• notch656a 4y ago
  I don't disagree nurses DESERVE to be paid more (I'm not sure if the economics bear out but they're certainly as WORTHY as many other professions), but wouldn't the fact that these nurses continue to work in nursing despite considering leaving bolster the argument even further that they are receiving adequate compensation? Staying when you want to leave indicates there's enough compensation to 'make it worth it' at least versus whatever shitty alternatives you have. Leaving when you want to stay, to me, would be a much bigger indicator that nurses who want to stay in the profession can't because of wage/benefits/conditions issues.
  • landemva 4y ago
    Many can't afford to not work due to debt/rent/child support payments. If you don't pay rent you lose the apartment and the weekend parenting time. Miss the child support payments which were being taken from paycheck and child support enforcement takes driver license and starts process to take the car that is in your name. Many people don't have even a little optionality.
    • notch656a 4y ago
      That's actually my point. IF they are able to meet their obligations in nursing and their job is literally such a superior option to all the alternatives that they don't have 'optionality' then it's a weird flex to be angry at your one best(least bad) option that actually pays your rent and child support. Be angry that the alternatives aren't as good as the nursing gig you have. I definitely feel for those paying child support, because 'imputed income' means you must pay at whatever rate the judge thinks you can make the best money at. You can never take a more relaxing lower paying job, because it will result in your imprisonment. Those people really have no future in the US -- their only option to throttle back their income is suicide, leave the country, or wait to go to jail. I blame society for the existence of these debtor's prisons, not nursing employers.
      • landemva 4y ago
        Seems you understand the more income -> more support trap. Mandatory overtime is considered in support calculations. That sets high water mark so going back to 40/hours week does not lower payments. I learned the hard way, and last employer I regularly sent email to boss thanking them for opportunity to work voluntary overtime. I would subpoena the boss's response of 'yes' for evidence in child support hearing to only use 40/hours week. The courts and county child support enforcement are wicked and liars.
• KarlKemp 4y ago
  This reads too much like a generalization of the standard complaints about management and their stupid meetings, the basic thesis of that web comic that was neither funny nor true, Dilbert. The criminal justice system may be overwhelmed, but its reaction certainly isn't to just let criminals "exit like a revolving door". The US is still incarcerating people at 10x the rate of other wealthy countries. Nurses being overworked is simply due to there not being enough nurses. It matters little if there's too much bureaucracy somewhere, or if too much money is spent on pharmaceuticals (about twice as expensive as anywhere else) or if doctors make too much money or if the US has a uniquely unhealthy population.
  • johnnyanmac 4y ago
    >Nurses being overworked is simply due to there not being enough nurses. yes but this begs the obvious question of "why?", which either leads to the immediate thoughts of 1. not enough people want to be nurses 2. companies don't want to hire more nurses I'm assuming #1 is false, so #2 is the go-to conclusion, at least on the high level. I'm sure I'm missing some more nuanced #3/4/5 explanations, but it does seem to ultimately come down to money that isn't being spent (be it maliciously or simply due to not having the budget).
    • hnick 4y ago
      The obvious #3 is "nurses are doing too much non-nurse stuff" which relates to both #1 (job is annoying and not what I want to do) and #2 in a way (they are not hiring non-nurses and/or investing in equipment, tools, etc).
  • pessimizer 4y ago
    Dilbert wasn't a webcomic, it was in the paper.
  • m3047 4y ago
    I was introduced to the Dilbert comic strip while working in the Bay Area in the '90s. Customer's rep literally pulled me aside and asked how I could work for my boss. Said "this is your boss!"
• WalterBright 4y ago
  And yet the government budgets rise dramatically year after year.
  • munk-a 4y ago
    The government is one of the few places where you can get a job in your twenties and retire comfortably in your 60s having made a decent, but certainly not outstanding, amount of money with consistent raises and cost of living adjustments. What some people will call government waste - other people will call ethical employee treatment... sure there are a lot of other sources of inefficiency outside of your comment - but complaining about overpaid government bureaucrats is essentially advocating for the same race-to-the-bottom that has stagnated wages in large parts of the labour pool.
    • fallingknife 4y ago
      It's not that they're paid too much. It's that they do too little useful work.
      • munk-a 4y ago
        A relative of mine works for a state level LEO targeting financial crimes - they've spoken often about how "smaller government" advocating politicians have repeatedly hamstrung the organization when it tries to go after large corporations. They've still managed to do good work going after smaller scale offenders that fleece investors - but I wouldn't put the blame on those employees for doing work you don't find useful... it's mostly up to politics.
        • notreallyserio 4y ago
          That's the whole point. Powerful proponents of small government want to do anything and everything with no consequences. They've duped a lot of less-wealthy suckers into believing that having fewer public services will benefit them somehow, and/or that the only thing standing in the way of personal success is the government. They talk a lot about figures like word count in legislation and other easy to understand concepts (even to folks with low education).
• johnnyanmac 4y ago
  > There is no shortage of people wanting to be nurses (in some places it is extremely competitive), and there is a huge demand for nurses based on shortages everywhere, but somehow we are in a situation where nurses are overworked because they are short staffed. why is this such a common story across pretty much every single industry? There's more people in the country than 10, 20, 30 years ago. More customers, more money. Why do they think they can handle more work with less workers whose salary is less when adjusting for inflation?
  • chiefofgxbxl 4y ago
    They don't think they can handle more work with fewer workers. It's just a profit squeeze, and someone else pays the price.
  • heavyset_go 4y ago
    Owners and operators have learned that they can keep the lights on by running their businesses with skeleton crews and, at the same time, reap the rewards of lower costs as profits.
    • zamfi 4y ago
      > reap the rewards of lower costs as profits yeah...or stay in business because their prices aren't 10x their competitors. The anti-capitalism is strong on HN these days...
      • rocqua 4y ago
        I think 'we have to exploit our workers to stay competitive' is a bigger argument against capitalism than 'I choose to exploit my workers because it gives me more profits'.
      • rightbyte 4y ago
        Attrition sucks money. It is just not on the spread sheets for the bean counters.
      • kingludite 4y ago
• zamfi 4y ago
  > academia which is rife with money sloshing around In the academia that contains money sloshing around, the only grad students teaching are the ones who want to. In the academia that doesn't contain money sloshing around, it's a different story. But the truth is, no one in academia is making bank from academia directly -- not the grad students, certainly, but also not the adjuncts, or even the professors. You have to look higher up the chain (or, I guess, laterally?) for that. (Yes, there's the caveat that some faculty make good use of their prestigious affiliations or professional connections to increase income from outside of academia.)
  • sydbarrett74 4y ago
• shaky-carrousel 4y ago
  The pillars of society are police, healthcare workers, and teachers. Except in America, where the pillars are, according to salaries, CEOs.
  • mensetmanusman 4y ago
    And, the pillars of government are college coaches. Ha
  • bongoman37 4y ago
  • erddfre3423 4y ago
    Not just America but pretty much everywhere. I'm Finnish, and when I read about problems of American nurses it all seems pretty much identical to what is going on in my country, except maybe for some legal problems. Low pay, angry patients, lack of resources and bad IT seem universal.
    • hn_version_0023 4y ago
      The universal part is human greed, and I’m just not sure if we’re going to survive long enough to get over that.
      • leaflets2 4y ago
        Greed, combined with kindness and agreeableness, but in different people