18 ms·

Strange, I've had a very different experience to the author of this, I've actually got a similar spreadsheet I may clean-up and post to show another view point,

• silexia 4y ago
  The Keurig is the worst offender... Enormous energy is expended to keep your water hot 24/7.
  • iSloth 4y ago
    Very true - To be honest at the point I knew the house consumption and hadn't yet clamped individual devices I had expected to find a single culprit like that, or even a faulty device with earth leakage that was affectively dumping the current for no real purpose. I should have also pointed out, I really do wish more devices would have more physical power switches where it makes sense - As an example the washing machine has a touch sensitive main power button, yet our tumble dryer (same manufacture & design) has a more physical on/off switch - The former uses a decent amount of standby power, the second uses none, the only real purpose I see is a slightly more "premium" feel to the washing machine.
    • verall 4y ago
      Mains power switches are a wear item and can withstand like 10-100x less on/off cycles than a simple button that controls some 3.3V gpio on a microcontroller.
      • lmt55 4y ago
        A cheap mains power switch from 30-40 years ago had no problem being cycled once or twice a day for 30-40 years without ever failing. This is not a binding constraint.
        • verall 4y ago
          Either there's not alot of current going across that switch, or it's just a little lucky - just because that one is going strong doesn't mean over half of the same switch hasn't failed in the same application. Or, if it's really 40 years old, "cheap" could be "really fat and expensive" today. If you pick up an old "broken" power (audio) amp, the most likely reason for it to be broken is pots - switch - caps - FETs in that order.
  • s1mon 4y ago
    Do you have stats on this? I've developed coffee makers and other appliances. Yes, there's often a mode where the boiler keeps warm for some amount of time after the first cup is made. The first cup can take minutes to heat up, and the second is often much shorter. Then there's a certain amount of time where the preheat is left on, and eventually it's turned off if the coffee maker isn't used again. Different models/makes have different algorithms and modes, but this is a common pattern. There are energy conservation standards which also come in to play, so unless we're taking about a commercial machine, I don't think anything current will just keep the preheat on forever.
    • mikepurvis 4y ago
      I wouldn't have believed it either, and yet: "Keurig brewers – unless turned off – continuously heat the water inside the heating tank even when the brewer is sitting idle. Some Keurigs such as K-Cafe and K-Elite feature an auto-off function that switches off the brewer two hours after its last brewing to save on energy." I guess if your machine is trashing the planet with plastic waste anyway, why not also trash it on the energy consumption side? What a disaster. ref. https://kahawaplanet.com/does-keurig-boil-water-how-to-get-hot-water-from-keurig/ https://kahawaplanet.com/does-keurig-boil-water-how-to-get-h...
      • Finnucane 4y ago
        I keep an electric kettle and Melitta pour-over on my desk at work. It is on when I turn it on, then it is off. The Keurig has always seemed like kind of a bad deal.
        • mikepurvis 4y ago
          I guess you could make a case for this kind of thing in a breakroom or something where it's going to be in use all day, but then again, that's also the scenario where it would make the most sense to just be continuously brewing whole pots of coffee in a conventional drip machine. Either way, a Keurig in a home, only brewing once or twice a day? The worst.
    • 4y ago
  • willcipriano 4y ago
    I just got one but the Zojirushi hot water dispenser can keep 4 liters of water hot for 31 - 48 watts or so. What does the Keurig use? https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00R4HKIV8/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&th=1 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00R4HKIV8/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b...
    • masklinn 4y ago
      Zojs are well insulated hot water dispensers, a keurig is a pod-type coffee machine, so I assume it’s just an un-insulated plastic reservoir (though hopefully it doesn’t keep the entire reservoir hot, only the water for the “next dose” for people who can’t cope with waiting 30 seconds for the machine to heat up)
      • Scoundreller 4y ago
        I really wish keurig would just have a big capacitor inside to insta-heat the water beyond what’s possible from mains in real-time. But I guess there’s too much risk of shocky shock.
        • masklinn 4y ago
          > I really wish keurig would just have a big capacitor inside to insta-heat the water beyond what’s possible from mains in real-time. But I guess there’s too much risk of shocky shock. I'm not sure that's an option unless you have a capacitor larger than the device. Heating water takes a lot of energy: let's say we're talking 200mL water (0.2kg), ambient temperature is 20C, water has a specific heat of 4.2kg/kg.C, so that's 67200J. A Maxwell K2 3000f 3.0v would store a hair under 13500J, which isn't even remotely close, and these things are huge (https://youtu.be/y8tQesYvCig?t=10 https://youtu.be/y8tQesYvCig?t=10), heavy (>500g), and each would be a significant fraction of the keurig's existing price. If you need to strap 5 capacitors to the keurig, danger aside, you've added 2.5kg to the thing, you've strapped a pack twice the size of the brewer, and you've at least doubled and probably close to tripled its price.
  • brnt 4y ago
    My Quooker does too, keep a reservoir permenantly at 110C. It only uses 10W thanks to its insulation though. Surprising Keurig didn't think of that. Then again, they've mostly seemed to have thought about taking your money.
• D13Fd 4y ago
  Yeah. The author is way off here. Another way you can quickly find big offenders is by using an infrared camera. I found various things in my house that are putting off a ton of heat when doing nothing (and using electricity to do it). My 10-year-old speakers with a built-in amp, for example, absolutely glow on infrared even when sitting there inactive 98% of the time. Now they are on a switch.
  • edent 4y ago
    Really depends where in the world you are. In the UK / EU there are rather strict rules on how much power devices can use in standby.
  • m_eiman 4y ago
    While an IR camera is a good tool (and terribly fun to use!), not everyone has one. Almost everyone has another tool that can be nearly as efficient though: a hand. It's quite easy to use too: if something is warm when you touch it, it's burning through watts. If you expected it to be sleeping, it's either not sleeping or it's very bad at it. Don't forget the AC adapters, they can be worse than the devices they supply.
    • sidewndr46 4y ago
      In a net heating environment, this is less of an issue than otherwise immediately obvious. A small idle electronic device making a consistent amount of heat just helps heat the house. If electricity is very expensive it would make sense to try and track down the offenders however.
      • m_eiman 4y ago
        Hopefully you have another heating system that's more efficient than direct electricity, though!
        • denton-scratch 4y ago
          How can any electric heating system be more "efficient" than an inefficient appliance? Inefficiency in an electrical appliance is nothing more than a measure of how good that appliance is at turning electricity into heat.
• disiplus 4y ago
  how did you get 500w of idle use. that does not make sense. could you please post your table. i have my pc all the time on and some other things and not even close to that.
  • deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  • xyzzy123 4y ago
    Agree, 500w of nothing is INSANE in 2022 are you sure. Please list brands.
    • mikepurvis 4y ago
      I don't think it's any one thing that's 500W, it's an accumulation of many devices all doing 20-100W. Lots of modern PCs are 30W+ even when off— like not even on sleep, but on off/standby. So these numbers don't surprise me in the slightest.
      • disiplus 4y ago
        i worked for a electricity meter maker and measured consumption for things in my house and have now meters on most sockets and so on. 500w idle is huge.
        • roter 4y ago
          How much is the draw of all those ammeters? i.e. the "burden". I'm having trouble finding what that would be for a typical household plug ammeter without avoiding all the "power meters are great" spam sites. I assume it is very small.
          • vetinari 4y ago
            I'm using Shelly EM at the entry (for the entire phase), relays with PM at some sockets with interesting devices and shelly plugs at some sockets that need to be easily serviceable (think behind kitchen cabinets, for the built-ins). The consumption of each of them is below 1W.
• nicgrev103 4y ago
  Please do post your full experience, I'd be interested. I saw an article this morning and it spurred me to buy some smart plugs to cut power overnight to standby devices (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/bills-and-utilities/gas-electric/unplug-microwave-tv-save-147-year-british-gas-tells-customers/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/bills-and-utilities/gas-electric...)
  • nicgrev103 4y ago
    Come to think of it, the smart plugs probably draw similar power to the appliances on standby..??
    • b112 4y ago
      It's OK, there are smart plugs you can use, to cut the power to them.
      • zekica 4y ago
        Smart plugs all the way down.
    • outworlder 4y ago
      Most are similar to well-behaved appliances - so low it's difficult to measure. Even more so if they are not wifi. I have one in my desk that's then plugged to a power strip so it can cut power to multiple devices at once. It can even measure power consumption – sitting at around 80W as I type this, with a laptop, 34" monitor, Echo, wireless charger, USB switcher, USB hub, a desktop computer currently 'off', standing desk, laptop dock and the list goes on.
• moralestapia 4y ago
  500W of "idle" power consumption is waaaay too high, in my experience. That's my average rate when I have everything on. Granted, I live in a place where AC is not needed and use laptops instead of PCs to work on. ~$40/month is my total electriciy bill (I'm on the lowest end, I know).
  • Loic 4y ago
    We are a family of 5 in Germany, we have a 70€/month electricity bill. 2500kWh per year with one person (me) in home office. 3000kWh with two persons and the kids being more at home.
    • bitexploder 4y ago
      My house uses about 1500-1800kWh per month. We just bought it though and are working to get it efficient.
      • mmcnl 4y ago
        How is that possible? Electrical heating / AC?
        • bitexploder 4y ago
          Unclear. We just got solar panels and are auditing all the energy users now. There were some resistive heaters running we didn’t know about that pushed an extra 500kWh before. I think we got it down to about 1600 kWh. I think with all the he mods we are doing we can get it down below 1000 kWh but it will take time and more efficiency improving.
          • mmcnl 4y ago
            I would suggest to get a smart electricity meter so you can see "live" power usage. I'm not familiar with resistive heaters, but it appears they are purely electrical, which means they are only 100% efficient. Heat pumps (you can use AC for heating) are >300% efficient. For reference: my 2 person household uses less than 3000 kWh / year (gas heating and electrical cooking), so even 1000 kWh / month would be a lot imo.
• iNerdier 4y ago
  Just having air conditioning in the UK clearly puts you in a position with electricity use outside of the normal.
  • iSloth 4y ago
    Sure - Completely agree with having the air conditioning or heat pump running, there would be a higher power consumption compared to the average UK property, however this is about idle consumption. When these devices are in "sleep" the unit is doing nothing more than looking for an IR signal from the remote controller that it's been turned on, just like a TV does etc, so it's odd to pull such a large draw in this sleep state.
• photochemsyn 4y ago
  Why doesn't every home have a monitor right off the main panel recording current total power draw in a format that is easy to read and interpret? Seems like such an obvious way to control usage. Running around with a power consumpution monitor for every wall socket is all well and good, but might miss a lot of silent leaks.
  • rob74 4y ago
    That would work for the total consumption, but if you notice that that is too high, you will still have to run around with a power consumption monitor to identify the individual culprits. Of course, a display saying "you are currently using 1300 Watts" would be easier than having to estimate it from how fast the wheel on the meter is turning, but replacing every meter everywhere is not the most environmentally friendly thing to do either...
    • masklinn 4y ago
      I’d think panel support would logically have a probe per circuit, so you could get the complete breakdown if and when necessary. Though obviously it’s still only on per-circuit basis, and if an idiot wired your house that may be less useful than the platonic ideal of house wiring.
      • NordSteve 4y ago
        Leviton offers what you describe: https://www.leviton.com/en/products/residential/load-centers https://www.leviton.com/en/products/residential/load-centers
    • egeek 4y ago
      There's an energy monitor with 16 CT clamps included, you put one on each of the circuits coming from the fuse board. 16 is more than enough for most UK houses, which would at least let you know which circuits are consuming the power.
    • bzxcvbn 4y ago
      > if you notice that that is too high, you will still have to run around with a power consumption monitor to identify the individual culprits Or just the good old method of turning things off individually, one at a time.
• aclelland 4y ago
  Yeah I'm confused by this article. I've got a Virgin Media TV box which used 25w while on standby. Maybe I'm doing the math wrong but: 25w * 24 * 365 = 219000w or 219kw per year. At my current electricity rate that's £39.42 per year at a very minimum just for the TV box.
  • ars 4y ago
    A good approximation is that 1W of power for a year costs you one Dollar (or Euro) per year.
  • egeek 4y ago
    Your math is right, if you're not recording at night then you can switch it off at night (we switch one of ours off at night on a timer)
  • MauranKilom 4y ago
    The math is right but the units are messy. Watts are already energy/time, which is correct for the 25 W figure, but the 219 should be kWh/year. 25 W * 24 h/day * 365 days/year = 219000 Wh/year = 219 kWh/year Which makes me notice that 1 kWh / year = 1000 Wh / year = 1000 Wh / (356 * 24h) = 0.117 W. So you can quickly estimate that a device with x Watts of constant consumption will have you paying for roughly 10 x kWh in electricity a year. With electricity costs on the order of 20 cents/kWh, that means a rule of thumb is "double the wattage, that's how many $ it'll cost you to have it running all year".
• 8fingerlouie 4y ago
  Sonos devices are also quite power hungry in standby, in the 4-6W range (230v) https://support.sonos.com/s/article/256?language=en_US https://support.sonos.com/s/article/256?language=en_US
• Terry_Roll 4y ago
  > idle power consumption was about 0.4-0.5kW while everyone was sleeping at night Thats quite high, I'll be checking our inverter now as its an air source heater and air con unit rolled into one. Our biggest energy savers have been one of these (https://www.screwfix.com/p/lap-digital-immersion-timer/1804r#_=p https://www.screwfix.com/p/lap-digital-immersion-timer/1804r...) at shoulder height in an easy to access location, on for 1.5hrs during the last part of Economy 7 night time tariff and then switched on when ever hot water is needed on a demand driven basis, switched off when its finished with although it cuts out after 1 or 2hrs anyway if we forget. Thing is most appliances have a timer and heat water when it needs it, so they go on during Economy 7 anyway. Talking to a washing machine/tumble dryer engineer the other day, the condensing tumble dryers seem to be energy saving because they dont heat the clothes up so a saving is made by not shrinking the clothes exposed to too much heat and they run at ambient air temps extracting moisture so the dry clothes much like hanging them out on the line. The other major energy saver which means we dont have the air con on during the summer months in the UK (desert climate location in the UK - yes one exists believe it or not) is these black out blinds. https://www.blocblinds.co.uk/window_blinds/blocout_info?source=news.ycombinator.com https://www.blocblinds.co.uk/window_blinds/blocout_info?sour... They sit flush with the internal wall so you can still have stuff on your window ledge, but by being flush with the internal wall means its more like triple glazing. They keep the warmth in during the winter because its very cold over night in the countryside and they keep the heat out during the summer so much so that some days when I would have put the air con on, I dont need to, or I only put the air con on for the afternoon, its temperature controlled anyway so it cuts in when it wants. And when the air con is on, the whole house is at 18 degrees C according to the downstairs central heating thermostat, its at the top of the stairs keeping bedrooms cold and the cold sinks down the stairs which keeps the downstairs cold, thats works brilliantly especially during heatwaves! You also get fantastic sleep during the summer months as well! Cant stress that enough! We all have individual bedrooms due to different work schedules and I love my sleep, but you cant see anything in the room at midday in the middle of summer, you cant even see your hand in front of your face, they block out that much light. Its bliss! Those have been our two biggest energy savers, and we have solar panels, a loft full of insulation, insulated cavity walls, fancy gas in the double glazing etc etc. Little short of dumping some of the time saving gadgets, I dont think we could save any more energy.
• MomoXenosaga 4y ago
  Those cable TV boxes that they give out are terrible outdated cheap pieces of shite and have notoriously bad power consumption. Considering it is impossible to know what kind of appliances folks have in their homes the article is odd.
• Semaphor 4y ago
  Those are some atrocious computer numbers, though. I have a desktop PC with 5.1 speakers and 2 Monitors. Standby is less than 10W (10W being the lowest my device can recognize). 36W? What?
• gruez 4y ago
  >I noticed through my energy monitor that idle power consumption was about 0.4-0.5kW while everyone was sleeping at night, which seemed high to my research of national averages. >Edit, here's a very quick screenshot of the spreadsheet and data I've got to hand at the moment, in time I'll get something better cleaned up and together. Many of the items on the list stretch the definition of "idle". For instance, network equipment. Sure, I guess if you're not using the internet at a given time it's "idle" and therefore can be turned off, but your use of it is so random that you effectively can't turn it off. Same goes for "clock and alexa". The networking equipment category alone makes up 78W, or 20% of the total. Also, listing fridge as "idle"? You effectively need it on 24/7.
  • onionisafruit 4y ago
    > Also, listing fridge as "idle"? The refrigerator isn’t constantly cooling. You could consider the time when it is cycled off to be idle. Of course it is constantly monitoring for when it needs to start cooling again. If it’s well insulated and your home is a reasonable temperature you can probably turn it off at night when you know you won’t be opening it. I don’t have any expertise. I’m just speculating.
    • verall 4y ago
      > you can probably turn it off at night when you know you won’t be opening it The compressor is going to run in the morning though to make up the lost cold unless you want your ice to melt. Seems the marginal benefit would be tiny. It probably messes up the cool/defrost cycle that modern fridges go through too.
    • mastax 4y ago
      I'm pretty sure refrigerators have electric heaters in the door gaskets as well.
  • iSloth 4y ago
    Sure, I guess my definition of idle is everyone in the house asleep not using any appliances and having them all in the generally accepted idle state. Network Equipment I actually swapped a decent amount of it - The testing showed the Netgear managed switches were using around 1W each, opposed to 20w for the DLink switch, and another 20w for a Unifi Switch. The Hob/Microwave I manually just power off now as I don't need them on all day long, and devices which I put Alexa controller relays on were the aircon units, my PC & Monitors and the TV & Surround (other than Sky Box)
• noTooMooch 4y ago
  Damn; and I felt gaudy with my phone, personal desktop, single smart speaker and laptop through work being my only gadgets at home. How much money would be saved if we didn’t fetishize owning a bunch of stuff that idly costs more money? How much electricity, since that matters in real terms to me more than your finances.
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• kraig911 4y ago
  I use air purifiers in home and I am trying to do the same. Issue is a lot of the electronics like these honeywell purifiers require user input when turned on or off. Do you know of any tricks around this?
  • Marsymars 4y ago
    No good solution I've found other than being careful in product purchases. I recently got some Blueair air purifiers and was careful to check the manual for power off functionality first. ("The autostart feature automatically restarts the air purifier at the last set speed if it has been unplugged, used with a power switch timer, or if a power failure occurs.")
  • outworlder 4y ago
    Other than modifying the device to provide the missing input? No. You could also use some ridiculous solution like the switchbot.
• IMSAI8080 4y ago
  I have some questions about your figures: - You've included the fridge, that's not really "standby" power in the sense OP is meaning. That's active power consumption. Fridges don't have a standby mode. - As above you've included air conditioning. That looks like active power with a pump running, not standby power. I cannot envisage any way you could get that consumption in standby. I think you've made a mistake with that. - Why did you measure the Alexa with a toaster and a clock connected to it? The Alexa is 2W max. Is this toaster some kind of smart device? A normal toaster is either on or using zero power. Do clocks have a standby mode? I don't understand that. - What's the iMac power consumption mean? It uses 6.6W shutdown or in hibernate? That seems unlikely. - Are you sure you've switched these speakers into standby? That looks like they're switched on and active. - What are the lighting figures? Regular lights are zero switched off. Are these remote controlled or wi-fi lights maybe? - Your door bell is seriously using 10 watts? Are you sure? Do you mean is this actually a camera or something? - You've got eight devices involved with delivering your wi-fi and network (four access points, 2 switches, a router and a controller) . That's probably more than average and it's arguable whether that's really standby power as such in the sense OP means. - It was measured with some form of clamp meter. Have you checked that with a multimeter to see if that's really accurate? A consumer one may not be that good.
  • karmakaze 4y ago
    I would interpret these devices as being in a low-power usage mode where we wouldn't expect high power draws, rather than literally a 'standby mode'. A clock certainly falls in this category. A fridge if it hasn't been opened in hours and has good insulation could even fall here as well overnight, etc. Sure there are power spikes but the important thing is the amortized consumption.
    • ubercow13 4y ago
      But you cant turn off your fridge at the wall so what's the point in measuring it?
      • masom 4y ago
• notwhereyouare 4y ago
  I had a printer that was just spooling up every minute. Was doing some stuff and looked at my power consumption and noticed it. Super weird, seems like a job didn't finish or something and it was trying to finish printing and just couldn't
• m55au 4y ago
  You have measured the apparent power (volt-amperes), not the active power (watts) that you pay for. There can be quite a big difference, especially at standby.
• colordrops 4y ago
  what clamp meter are you using?
  • iSloth 4y ago
    I’m using an Owl Intuition, however please don’t take that as a recommendation. I got it cheap on eBay with the network bridge included hence why, but the website UI is truly terrible. I’m currently building one myself using the common SCT-013 sensor, and an ESP32 (arduino) which I plan to then store the data in either a little react app, or perhaps Grafana.
• merry_flame 4y ago
  I've had pretty much the same experience as you. Some devices had excellent standy power use, others were really bad (the speakers on my sound system being the worst offenders and using exactly as much power when on standby than when operating and more than my fridge…). The key takeaway here imho is: n=1, monitor your own installation and devices and don't expect there to be either an untapped pool of savings or a well optimised system based on blog posts by other people.