6 ms·

2. That doesn't answer my question. Actually, I'm not even sure how it attempted to. I specifically mentioned the "market price". I don't really know how these

by krick 5y ago

2. That doesn't answer my question. Actually, I'm not even sure how it attempted to. I specifically mentioned the "market price". I don't really know how these US congress persons work, and you may as well imply that the idea that they "represent" you is as much bullshit, as Musk-assigned board member represent real shareholders (and I have no problem with this implication), but there surely must be difference (and it isn't even the fact that you supposedly voted for them): unlike congress people, who can decide whatever they decide in the USA congress, the board cannot decide the market price. At least, usually. Every shareholder wants market price to be higher, and the board members are supposed to try to achieve that, but they cannot appoint the price, they simply have no such power. By definition, it's the market who decides that. Otherwise, it isn't clear, what the "not so low that the government gets involved" is even supposed to be. I fully admit that I don't understand how this works, so this may sound silly, but it would seem fair to me that since the moment company became public, nobody ever can undo that, because microscopic pieces of that company legally belong to some random people now, and they can ask whatever price they want for their share. If anybody makes them sell at any price that's less than what they want — it's a robbery. Now, I can kind of imagine the way this could be worked around. E.g., there must be some way to liquidate the company, and hence there must be way to execute the merger regardless of what shareholder minority thinks of that. Each company gets supposedly "fair" valuation before the merge and old shareholders get specific amount of "new" shares in exchange to their old shares, which is kinda like getting the cash, so here we go. I mean, I still cannot explain myself, how this can be considered fair and legal, but I suppose there is an explanation. But even this way, the natural way to do that seems to use today's market price. So even if 51% belongs to 1 person and nobody else can decide anything (so, he basically IS the board already), how can this person offer shareholders anything else than the market price for what belongs to them? This doesn't make any sense to me. It sounds like a robbery, plain and simple.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
zwily 5y ago
There are stipulations that come with buying shares. In fact when you buy shares, they’re never even actually in your name. They’re like 3 steps removed from you via various holding companies that are basically a bunch of various crap. One of the stipulations of being a shareholder is that you may be forced to sell your shares under certain circumstances. Nothing illegal about it, even if you don’t like it.
- jembiblio 5y ago
  It's interesting to read how a takeover works from a US public markets perspective because the situation is completely different in the UK. Takeovers of UK-listed companies are subject to the Takeover Code [0] which is administered by an independent body called the Takeover Panel. The Takeover Code is actually a surprisingly readable document which sets out all the rules that the bidder, the target and the shareholders must follow. A "mandatory" takeover in the UK is triggered when a shareholder goes over a 30% shareholding - they are then obliged to make an offer for the stock that they do not own at the highest price they have paid in the previous 12 months. Shareholders cannot be forced to sell until the bidder has received acceptances of more than 90% of the shares to which the offer relates. The board of the target will offer shareholders an opinion on the takeover price - they can either recommend or reject the offer. Typically, when boards recommend an offer then shareholders will accept but there is certainly no obligation to. Interestingly, the Takeover Panel used to have no legal enforcement powers (I'm not sure exactly what their status is these days). To ensure compliance with the rules there was a punishment called 'cold-shouldering' - basically if you breached the Takeover Code in an egregious way, the Takeover Panel could instruct market participants to stop dealing with the guilty party. This has only been used in very rare circumstances [1]. [0] https://www.thetakeoverpanel.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/The-Take-Over_Bookmarked_09.02.22.pdf?v=9Feb2022 https://www.thetakeoverpanel.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/... [1] https://www.thetakeoverpanel.org.uk/the-code/compliance/cold-shouldering https://www.thetakeoverpanel.org.uk/the-code/compliance/cold...
- tmountain 5y ago
  Depends on where you buy. Most folks buy from a broker and are holding the “street name”, which is an abstraction of the actual stock; however, it is possible to directly register shares with the DTC (depository trust company) and actually own them.
1123581321 5y ago
It looks like they made a good attempt to answer your question. They are saying that the board's fiduciary duty is what lets them be trusted by the government to sell the company. They are not saying the board decides what a decentralized market would pay each individual shareholder (the stock market does that), but that the board has an obligation to evaluate an offer against the likely future value of the company if it proceeds on its current path. Reading between the lines, the market is essentially a) the current stock price, b) the offer price, c) what the board/SEC/shareholder lawsuit judge thinks is a reasonable difference between A and B.
MacsHeadroom 5y ago
>If anybody makes them sell at any price that's less than what they want — it's a robbery. No, this incorrect. Pending a shareholder vote, the board of a company can force you to accept an amount they determine to revoke the validity of your shares. If the value per share (which they decide) of a specific class of shares is not so low as to illicit concern from regulators then it's all above board.
- krick 5y ago
  It seems you don't understand the question. I understand that the board can decide value per share. Basically everyone in this thread said this at least once, which is unnecessary, since that's basically what was stated in the root post, and that's why I asked the question in the first place! The question is how this is supposed to be fair. Because, once again, if you make me to sell my property for anything less than I want to sell it for — yes, it totally does sound like a robbery. Again, kinda by definition (I paid money to own some entity; if you want to become the owner of what I own, you have to pay what I ask for it — this is basically how all trading works). So, once more, my question is: what is the underlying legal idea, that makes this supposedly "fair deal"?
  - liamwire 5y ago
    It seems you don’t understand the notion of conditional share ownership. These aren’t bearer bonds or cryptocurrency. Within the corporate structure that allowed you to be issued/sold these shares at the outset are stipulations that the board can liquidate your shares, under certain conditions. Evidently, those conditions have been met. An arbitrary definition of ‘fair’ doesn’t play into it.
    - strken 5y ago
      I think the question is more to do with how we can have an economic system largely based on shares that can be rug-pulled from under a shareholder at any moment. How come governments don't legislate against it? How come anyone trusts shares enough to buy them? At a guess I'd say the answers to the two questions are "they do legislate against some behaviours, but blocking hostile takeovers is worse than allowing them" and "the risk of that happening is built into the market price," but I don't actually know.
adoxyz 5y ago
The board of directors has a fiduciary duty to represent the shareholders. That also includes the minority shareholders in your scenario. I think the comment above was just making a general statement of what could happen and in that hypothetical scenario, or even if you make it more extreme, say Elon and co acquire 51% of twitter for $50, and install new board with their majority and then the board decides to go private, selling the full company to Elon for $0.01 per share. Could they do this? Technically, I would say yes. But in reality, they would be sued by the 49% of shareholders and the SEC would probably launch an investigation (which is what OP meant by govt would get involved). On the open market, the board doesn't really have much control over the price, but when it comes to complete buy-outs or mergers, they can set a price and as long as most of the shareholders are happy, it is what it is. I'm sure with this Twitter buyout at $54.20, some people are holding shares that they bought at $60+ last year, and they'll be forced to liquidate those and get the payout, so they won't be too happy, but considering the current price of twitter and it's road map it may be a good price.
judge2020 5y ago
> It sounds like a robbery, plain and simple. A lot of work and planning goes into the sale of a company, and there are a _lot_ of safeguards to ensure such a sale isn't done in a way intended to "rob" a large amount of shareholders[0]. You don't really "own" a stock in the regular sense of ownership simply because of the absolute mass of laws and regulations that surround both what you can do with your shares and how much they're worth. 0: https://www.lw.com/thoughtLeadership/the-latham-and-watkins-take-private-guide-an-overview-of-acquiring-a-us-public-company https://www.lw.com/thoughtLeadership/the-latham-and-watkins-...

by krick 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

zwily 5y ago

There are stipulations that come with buying shares. In fact when you buy shares, they’re never even actually in your name. They’re like 3 steps removed from you via various holding companies that are basically a bunch of various crap. One of the stipulations of being a shareholder is that you may be forced to sell your shares under certain circumstances. Nothing illegal about it, even if you don’t like it.

jembiblio 5y ago
It's interesting to read how a takeover works from a US public markets perspective because the situation is completely different in the UK. Takeovers of UK-listed companies are subject to the Takeover Code [0] which is administered by an independent body called the Takeover Panel. The Takeover Code is actually a surprisingly readable document which sets out all the rules that the bidder, the target and the shareholders must follow. A "mandatory" takeover in the UK is triggered when a shareholder goes over a 30% shareholding - they are then obliged to make an offer for the stock that they do not own at the highest price they have paid in the previous 12 months. Shareholders cannot be forced to sell until the bidder has received acceptances of more than 90% of the shares to which the offer relates. The board of the target will offer shareholders an opinion on the takeover price - they can either recommend or reject the offer. Typically, when boards recommend an offer then shareholders will accept but there is certainly no obligation to. Interestingly, the Takeover Panel used to have no legal enforcement powers (I'm not sure exactly what their status is these days). To ensure compliance with the rules there was a punishment called 'cold-shouldering' - basically if you breached the Takeover Code in an egregious way, the Takeover Panel could instruct market participants to stop dealing with the guilty party. This has only been used in very rare circumstances [1]. [0] https://www.thetakeoverpanel.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/The-Take-Over_Bookmarked_09.02.22.pdf?v=9Feb2022 https://www.thetakeoverpanel.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/... [1] https://www.thetakeoverpanel.org.uk/the-code/compliance/cold-shouldering https://www.thetakeoverpanel.org.uk/the-code/compliance/cold...
tmountain 5y ago
Depends on where you buy. Most folks buy from a broker and are holding the “street name”, which is an abstraction of the actual stock; however, it is possible to directly register shares with the DTC (depository trust company) and actually own them.

1123581321 5y ago

It looks like they made a good attempt to answer your question. They are saying that the board's fiduciary duty is what lets them be trusted by the government to sell the company. They are not saying the board decides what a decentralized market would pay each individual shareholder (the stock market does that), but that the board has an obligation to evaluate an offer against the likely future value of the company if it proceeds on its current path. Reading between the lines, the market is essentially a) the current stock price, b) the offer price, c) what the board/SEC/shareholder lawsuit judge thinks is a reasonable difference between A and B.

MacsHeadroom 5y ago

>If anybody makes them sell at any price that's less than what they want — it's a robbery. No, this incorrect. Pending a shareholder vote, the board of a company can force you to accept an amount they determine to revoke the validity of your shares. If the value per share (which they decide) of a specific class of shares is not so low as to illicit concern from regulators then it's all above board.

krick 5y ago
It seems you don't understand the question. I understand that the board can decide value per share. Basically everyone in this thread said this at least once, which is unnecessary, since that's basically what was stated in the root post, and that's why I asked the question in the first place! The question is how this is supposed to be fair. Because, once again, if you make me to sell my property for anything less than I want to sell it for — yes, it totally does sound like a robbery. Again, kinda by definition (I paid money to own some entity; if you want to become the owner of what I own, you have to pay what I ask for it — this is basically how all trading works). So, once more, my question is: what is the underlying legal idea, that makes this supposedly "fair deal"?
- liamwire 5y ago
  It seems you don’t understand the notion of conditional share ownership. These aren’t bearer bonds or cryptocurrency. Within the corporate structure that allowed you to be issued/sold these shares at the outset are stipulations that the board can liquidate your shares, under certain conditions. Evidently, those conditions have been met. An arbitrary definition of ‘fair’ doesn’t play into it.
  - strken 5y ago
    I think the question is more to do with how we can have an economic system largely based on shares that can be rug-pulled from under a shareholder at any moment. How come governments don't legislate against it? How come anyone trusts shares enough to buy them? At a guess I'd say the answers to the two questions are "they do legislate against some behaviours, but blocking hostile takeovers is worse than allowing them" and "the risk of that happening is built into the market price," but I don't actually know.

adoxyz 5y ago

The board of directors has a fiduciary duty to represent the shareholders. That also includes the minority shareholders in your scenario. I think the comment above was just making a general statement of what could happen and in that hypothetical scenario, or even if you make it more extreme, say Elon and co acquire 51% of twitter for $50, and install new board with their majority and then the board decides to go private, selling the full company to Elon for $0.01 per share. Could they do this? Technically, I would say yes. But in reality, they would be sued by the 49% of shareholders and the SEC would probably launch an investigation (which is what OP meant by govt would get involved). On the open market, the board doesn't really have much control over the price, but when it comes to complete buy-outs or mergers, they can set a price and as long as most of the shareholders are happy, it is what it is. I'm sure with this Twitter buyout at $54.20, some people are holding shares that they bought at $60+ last year, and they'll be forced to liquidate those and get the payout, so they won't be too happy, but considering the current price of twitter and it's road map it may be a good price.

judge2020 5y ago

> It sounds like a robbery, plain and simple. A lot of work and planning goes into the sale of a company, and there are a _lot_ of safeguards to ensure such a sale isn't done in a way intended to "rob" a large amount of shareholders[0]. You don't really "own" a stock in the regular sense of ownership simply because of the absolute mass of laws and regulations that surround both what you can do with your shares and how much they're worth. 0: https://www.lw.com/thoughtLeadership/the-latham-and-watkins-take-private-guide-an-overview-of-acquiring-a-us-public-company https://www.lw.com/thoughtLeadership/the-latham-and-watkins-...