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1: yes. you get cash for your shares. 2: the board is representative of the share holders, like your US Congress person. they have a fiduciary responsibility to

by mylons 4y ago

1: yes. you get cash for your shares. 2: the board is representative of the share holders, like your US Congress person. they have a fiduciary responsibility to give the share holders value. the only reasonable way they could blow up this deal is if twitter had an incredible roadmap with a very good path to matching the value or exceeding the value of Elon's offer. no such roadmap exists, apparently.

krick 4y ago
2. That doesn't answer my question. Actually, I'm not even sure how it attempted to. I specifically mentioned the "market price". I don't really know how these US congress persons work, and you may as well imply that the idea that they "represent" you is as much bullshit, as Musk-assigned board member represent real shareholders (and I have no problem with this implication), but there surely must be difference (and it isn't even the fact that you supposedly voted for them): unlike congress people, who can decide whatever they decide in the USA congress, the board cannot decide the market price. At least, usually. Every shareholder wants market price to be higher, and the board members are supposed to try to achieve that, but they cannot appoint the price, they simply have no such power. By definition, it's the market who decides that. Otherwise, it isn't clear, what the "not so low that the government gets involved" is even supposed to be. I fully admit that I don't understand how this works, so this may sound silly, but it would seem fair to me that since the moment company became public, nobody ever can undo that, because microscopic pieces of that company legally belong to some random people now, and they can ask whatever price they want for their share. If anybody makes them sell at any price that's less than what they want — it's a robbery. Now, I can kind of imagine the way this could be worked around. E.g., there must be some way to liquidate the company, and hence there must be way to execute the merger regardless of what shareholder minority thinks of that. Each company gets supposedly "fair" valuation before the merge and old shareholders get specific amount of "new" shares in exchange to their old shares, which is kinda like getting the cash, so here we go. I mean, I still cannot explain myself, how this can be considered fair and legal, but I suppose there is an explanation. But even this way, the natural way to do that seems to use today's market price. So even if 51% belongs to 1 person and nobody else can decide anything (so, he basically IS the board already), how can this person offer shareholders anything else than the market price for what belongs to them? This doesn't make any sense to me. It sounds like a robbery, plain and simple.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- zwily 4y ago
  There are stipulations that come with buying shares. In fact when you buy shares, they’re never even actually in your name. They’re like 3 steps removed from you via various holding companies that are basically a bunch of various crap. One of the stipulations of being a shareholder is that you may be forced to sell your shares under certain circumstances. Nothing illegal about it, even if you don’t like it.
  - jembiblio 4y ago
    It's interesting to read how a takeover works from a US public markets perspective because the situation is completely different in the UK. Takeovers of UK-listed companies are subject to the Takeover Code [0] which is administered by an independent body called the Takeover Panel. The Takeover Code is actually a surprisingly readable document which sets out all the rules that the bidder, the target and the shareholders must follow. A "mandatory" takeover in the UK is triggered when a shareholder goes over a 30% shareholding - they are then obliged to make an offer for the stock that they do not own at the highest price they have paid in the previous 12 months. Shareholders cannot be forced to sell until the bidder has received acceptances of more than 90% of the shares to which the offer relates. The board of the target will offer shareholders an opinion on the takeover price - they can either recommend or reject the offer. Typically, when boards recommend an offer then shareholders will accept but there is certainly no obligation to. Interestingly, the Takeover Panel used to have no legal enforcement powers (I'm not sure exactly what their status is these days). To ensure compliance with the rules there was a punishment called 'cold-shouldering' - basically if you breached the Takeover Code in an egregious way, the Takeover Panel could instruct market participants to stop dealing with the guilty party. This has only been used in very rare circumstances [1]. [0] https://www.thetakeoverpanel.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/The-Take-Over_Bookmarked_09.02.22.pdf?v=9Feb2022 https://www.thetakeoverpanel.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/... [1] https://www.thetakeoverpanel.org.uk/the-code/compliance/cold-shouldering https://www.thetakeoverpanel.org.uk/the-code/compliance/cold...
  - 4y ago
tptacek 4y ago
The board could very easily have blown up the deal, which is proceeding only because they've consented to it. The game plan is simple: they do nothing, Musk executes a tender offer (which has a good chance of failing, so there's an out), the board says "nice job, but we're holding out for more money, check in with us next year", Musk launches a proxy fight, but it goes nowhere because Twitter has a staggered board and so there's no chance of a change of control within the next 12 months, 11 months go by, and we look at the price of the stock; if it's up, Twitter's board has de facto won the argument; if it's down, Musk's bid is no longer economically rational. Repeat. The most boring conclusion here (boringness on message boards usually being a strong proxy for accuracy) is that the board's initial reaction to Musk's offer was reflexive, the same way you'd push back on someone offering to buy your house based on a fixed premium from like Zillow, and that over the ensuing weeks they've managed to do the homework to evaluate the deal, and they've decided Musk is overpaying, so they're taking him up on it. From everything I've read --- I'm not an expert and someone like 'JumpCrisscross could jump in and correct me --- is that the deal blowing up was essentially the default state, once the shareholder rights plan was put in place.
- 542458 4y ago
  There’s an alternative explanation to why the board did what they did: Musk has played fast and loose with “I have the funding for this deal” and “I am correctly disclosing my share purchases” in the past. The poison pill was a way to get him to slow down and talk to the board and get his lawyers to sit down with their lawyers and make sure this wasn’t going to be another “I’m taking Tesla private” moment. (not saying you’re wrong, both or neither of these may be true)
  - tptacek 4y ago
    Sure, I'm not unbiased here and am framing this in the way least favorable to Musk --- that if a board is going to accept a first (=chuckle= no, "final") offer from a bidder, it's because the price is more than the board thinks the company is worth. But it's also true that they may have done that calculation quickly, and that really they were just making sure this wasn't an elaborate joke. Part of my analysis is based on the rumor that Twitter completed a valuation over the weekend, and it wasn't super favorable. But I've got no reliable reporting that establishes that. Either way, my real point is just that the board could easily have stopped this deal if they wanted to; in fact, they didn't even have to do anything to do stop it.

by mylons 4y ago

krick 4y ago

2. That doesn't answer my question. Actually, I'm not even sure how it attempted to. I specifically mentioned the "market price". I don't really know how these US congress persons work, and you may as well imply that the idea that they "represent" you is as much bullshit, as Musk-assigned board member represent real shareholders (and I have no problem with this implication), but there surely must be difference (and it isn't even the fact that you supposedly voted for them): unlike congress people, who can decide whatever they decide in the USA congress, the board cannot decide the market price. At least, usually. Every shareholder wants market price to be higher, and the board members are supposed to try to achieve that, but they cannot appoint the price, they simply have no such power. By definition, it's the market who decides that. Otherwise, it isn't clear, what the "not so low that the government gets involved" is even supposed to be. I fully admit that I don't understand how this works, so this may sound silly, but it would seem fair to me that since the moment company became public, nobody ever can undo that, because microscopic pieces of that company legally belong to some random people now, and they can ask whatever price they want for their share. If anybody makes them sell at any price that's less than what they want — it's a robbery. Now, I can kind of imagine the way this could be worked around. E.g., there must be some way to liquidate the company, and hence there must be way to execute the merger regardless of what shareholder minority thinks of that. Each company gets supposedly "fair" valuation before the merge and old shareholders get specific amount of "new" shares in exchange to their old shares, which is kinda like getting the cash, so here we go. I mean, I still cannot explain myself, how this can be considered fair and legal, but I suppose there is an explanation. But even this way, the natural way to do that seems to use today's market price. So even if 51% belongs to 1 person and nobody else can decide anything (so, he basically IS the board already), how can this person offer shareholders anything else than the market price for what belongs to them? This doesn't make any sense to me. It sounds like a robbery, plain and simple.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
zwily 4y ago
There are stipulations that come with buying shares. In fact when you buy shares, they’re never even actually in your name. They’re like 3 steps removed from you via various holding companies that are basically a bunch of various crap. One of the stipulations of being a shareholder is that you may be forced to sell your shares under certain circumstances. Nothing illegal about it, even if you don’t like it.
- jembiblio 4y ago
  It's interesting to read how a takeover works from a US public markets perspective because the situation is completely different in the UK. Takeovers of UK-listed companies are subject to the Takeover Code [0] which is administered by an independent body called the Takeover Panel. The Takeover Code is actually a surprisingly readable document which sets out all the rules that the bidder, the target and the shareholders must follow. A "mandatory" takeover in the UK is triggered when a shareholder goes over a 30% shareholding - they are then obliged to make an offer for the stock that they do not own at the highest price they have paid in the previous 12 months. Shareholders cannot be forced to sell until the bidder has received acceptances of more than 90% of the shares to which the offer relates. The board of the target will offer shareholders an opinion on the takeover price - they can either recommend or reject the offer. Typically, when boards recommend an offer then shareholders will accept but there is certainly no obligation to. Interestingly, the Takeover Panel used to have no legal enforcement powers (I'm not sure exactly what their status is these days). To ensure compliance with the rules there was a punishment called 'cold-shouldering' - basically if you breached the Takeover Code in an egregious way, the Takeover Panel could instruct market participants to stop dealing with the guilty party. This has only been used in very rare circumstances [1]. [0] https://www.thetakeoverpanel.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/The-Take-Over_Bookmarked_09.02.22.pdf?v=9Feb2022 https://www.thetakeoverpanel.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/... [1] https://www.thetakeoverpanel.org.uk/the-code/compliance/cold-shouldering https://www.thetakeoverpanel.org.uk/the-code/compliance/cold...
- 4y ago

tptacek 4y ago

The board could very easily have blown up the deal, which is proceeding only because they've consented to it. The game plan is simple: they do nothing, Musk executes a tender offer (which has a good chance of failing, so there's an out), the board says "nice job, but we're holding out for more money, check in with us next year", Musk launches a proxy fight, but it goes nowhere because Twitter has a staggered board and so there's no chance of a change of control within the next 12 months, 11 months go by, and we look at the price of the stock; if it's up, Twitter's board has de facto won the argument; if it's down, Musk's bid is no longer economically rational. Repeat. The most boring conclusion here (boringness on message boards usually being a strong proxy for accuracy) is that the board's initial reaction to Musk's offer was reflexive, the same way you'd push back on someone offering to buy your house based on a fixed premium from like Zillow, and that over the ensuing weeks they've managed to do the homework to evaluate the deal, and they've decided Musk is overpaying, so they're taking him up on it. From everything I've read --- I'm not an expert and someone like 'JumpCrisscross could jump in and correct me --- is that the deal blowing up was essentially the default state, once the shareholder rights plan was put in place.

542458 4y ago
There’s an alternative explanation to why the board did what they did: Musk has played fast and loose with “I have the funding for this deal” and “I am correctly disclosing my share purchases” in the past. The poison pill was a way to get him to slow down and talk to the board and get his lawyers to sit down with their lawyers and make sure this wasn’t going to be another “I’m taking Tesla private” moment. (not saying you’re wrong, both or neither of these may be true)
- tptacek 4y ago
  Sure, I'm not unbiased here and am framing this in the way least favorable to Musk --- that if a board is going to accept a first (=chuckle= no, "final") offer from a bidder, it's because the price is more than the board thinks the company is worth. But it's also true that they may have done that calculation quickly, and that really they were just making sure this wasn't an elaborate joke. Part of my analysis is based on the rumor that Twitter completed a valuation over the weekend, and it wasn't super favorable. But I've got no reliable reporting that establishes that. Either way, my real point is just that the board could easily have stopped this deal if they wanted to; in fact, they didn't even have to do anything to do stop it.