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Umberto Eco on common features of fascism (2016)
- joeman1000 5y agoThese terms could easily describe extremists from both ‘sides’, with some slight alteration.
- drewcoo 5y ago
- LesZedCB 5y agoideas can be re-explored and revisited in new contexts of time. you've never reread a book from your childhood and seen it in a whole new way? why not the same with the flux of society?
- Chazprime 5y agoIs the article being new a prerequisite for it being relevant?
- drewcoo 5y agoThe title did not have a year in parens, indicating that it was something new and I corrected that. The Internet exists for people to (mis-)correct one another!
- NoraCodes 5y agoI would argue that QAnon ticks all of these boxes, perhaps with the exception of item 8.
- whiddershins 5y agoIt’s always the our group that is fascist.
- mort96 5y agoBoth sides will claim that the other side is fascist, because calling something fascist is a powerful rhetorical tool. Still, it's possible for one side to be correct and the other side to be incorrect in their characterization.
- davidw 5y agoOne part of why we're in the pickle we're in is the both-sidesism from the press and others.
- IAmEveryone 5y agoIn its original iteration, the Nazis were very much not accusing their opponents of such things. Fascism is very visible, with displays of strength, mass events, iconography, etc. They concept of the enemy was more conspiratorial in nature, i. e. the jewish conspiracy. It's really only the most mindless middle school name calling of the last two years or so where you get Trump people saying "oh, but it's national socialist" and now Putin. It's trolling, "flooding the zone with shit". The Nazis were better than that.
- dragonwriter 5y ago> the Nazis were very much not accusing their opponents of such things That's because they (and their Italian buddies) hadn't yet etched in world consciousness the image problem fascism and Naziism has that such attacks seek to leverage. They did accuse their enemies of being all of the (often mutually contradictory) equivalent boogeymen of the day, though.
- pugets 5y agoIt’s also possible for neither side to be correct.
- mort96 5y agoAbsolutely. My point is that even if one group is provably fascist and the other group is provably not fascist, you would expect both groups to call each other fascist. Whether Qanon is fascist or not is a separate conversation.
- Shared404 5y agoI would agree sans the exception you carve out. I've seen too much "We're on the brink of $Horrible-evil-calamity-brought-on-by-out-group!" immediately followed by "The storm is coming there is nothing that can stop us now!" to think otherwise.
- cyborgx7 5y agoI think item 8 is one of the most obvious boxes it ticks. The weak-minded, constantly-triggered, safe-space seeking, snowflake libs control the entire world with an iron fist.
- IAmEveryone 5y agoPlus, you know, the globalists.
- RajT88 5y agoAh yes, the "Globalists ;) ;) ;)" That ticks a few boxes.
- krapp 5y agoAnd don't forget the "New York liberals." You know how they get, in New York.
- kmonsen 5y agoAnd they are lead by a very proud grew up wealthy New Yorker.
- KarlKemp 5y agoIt mostly seems to tick off a few ...somethings. Since it's quite impossible to disagree with the idea of "New York Liberal" and "globalist" being an anti-semitic dogwhistle once you've heard of it, the downvotes must be... intense disagreement with statement that makes absolutely no sense to them?
- krapp 5y agoObviously these are all just perfidious lies spread by the cultural marxists who control the media and academia.
- meepmorp 5y ago
- kmonsen 5y agoBut doesn't the wokish leftism also tick most of the boxes. You can say that they have real issue to complain about, but completely made up is not one of the boxes.
- NoraCodes 5y agoI mean... No. It misses 1, 2, arguably 3, 5, usually 7, 8, 10, and 12. That's over half the list, while QAnon checks all 14, or close.
- psyc 5y ago3. I misunderstood this one, and now I agree with you. 7. The patriarchy, institutional racism, rape culture. The extent to which these are comparable to conspiracy theories is a matter of perspective and proportion. But it seems obvious that as a group they portray themselves as perpetually besieged, no matter what. 8. Oppressors who are nevertheless exhibiting white or male ‘fragility’
- yiyus 5y ago1. The cult of tradition. 2. The rejection of modernism. 3. The cult of action for action’s sake. 4. Disagreement is treason. 5. Fear of difference. 6. Appeal to social frustration. 7. The obsession with a plot. 8. The enemy is both strong and weak. 9. Pacifism is trafficking with the enemy. 10. Contempt for the weak. 11. Everybody is educated to become a hero. 12. Machismo and weaponry. 13. Selective populism. 14. Ur-Fascism speaks Newspeak.
- sazz 5y agoIn Germany you can currently study how Newspeak is introduced. It started with Corona with "Corona Leugner" (denying the existance of Corona) and now with "Putinversteher" (that Putin strategy is actually reasonable and not based on insanity). The solely purpose of both words is to state that there is only one valid position and people having different opinions either shouldn't be taken serious or being treated as enemies to democracy as they are basically extremist or spreading misinformation. Especially "Corona Leugner" is in line with "Holocaust Leugner" and intends to label every person criticizing Corona to be put in the Nazi camp. And Nazis of course you do not discuss but fight them. And this is actually taking place. People protesting against government laws are now being labeled as right wing or Nazis. Even "Corona Leugner" is already recognized by judges being a defamation but it is still used in discussions on public broadcaster. For me this is actually Newspeak and a step further towards Facisms. To promote that there is only one valid political position and different views should not be seriously discussed.
- petermcneeley 5y ago
- mmastrac 5y agoI think you're going to struggle to paint one side with all of these
- tamaharbor 5y agoSounds like democrats and republicans in the US can each be assigned several of the attributes from the list.
- meerita 5y agoIf you want to know what is fascism, you better read it from Mussolini's mouth.
- IAmEveryone 5y agoFunny you should say that. Eco anticipated not only Trump and Putin, but meerita as well: Eco grew up under Mussolini’s fascist regime, which “was certainly a dictatorship, but it was not totally totalitarian, not because of its mildness but rather because of the philosophical weakness of its ideology. Contrary to common opinion, fascism in Italy had no special philosophy.” It did, however, have style, “a way of dressing—far more influential, with its black shirts, than Armani, Benetton, or Versace would ever be.”
- meerita 5y agoUnpopular fact: Trump is definetively not like Mussolini's or a fascist. He (Mussolini) was a disappointed Marxist, turned into a corporativist socialist. He did not have all the time in the world to carry out his project of totalitarianism, but he had already achieved enough. Mussolini's policies were socialist, like those of Franco, Hitler and others, nothing to do with Trump. Biden is also not a fascist if we apply the textbook. My father and grandfather grew up with Mussolini. There's an obsession to relate fascism with modern politics, and this article mainly can be applied to any modern president anywhere in the world
- kcplate 5y ago> There's an obsession to relate fascism with modern politics, and this article mainly can be applied to any modern president anywhere in the world I was thinking as I read this how many of the items applied to modern politics especially in the US, in both parties. I don’t think either party gets all of them, and the combinations are a bit different. Both parties certainly exhibit some of the uglier items So the question becomes if they both aren’t quite ticking all the fascism boxes, but are ticking most…what are they?
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- TurboHaskal 5y agoWait isn’t fascism modernist?
- badRNG 5y agoI think fascism is often thought of as reactionary backlash against modernity.
- krapp 5y ago
- je_suis_music 5y ago
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- bcdyjjig 5y agoIt is a bit complicated, but although e.g. Italian fascism sometimes resulted in modernist architecture, fascism is generally associated with national romanticism and a rejection of many features of modernity. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactionary_modernism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactionary_modernism
- billfruit 5y agoSome Italian Futurists groups was part of Mussolini's party I think.
- TurboHaskal 5y agoFascism is both reactionary and revolutionary, and opposes progressivism. It also has its roots in the modernist movement.
- fleetwoodsnack 5y agoAs a reactionary movement, they are associated with modernism in that they existed toward the end of the modernist era and were noteworthy for their rejection of it.
- Barrin92 5y agoThe part that's most interesting from Eco's take on fascism is that he stresses syncretism in the original essay on Ur-Fascism which is well worth reading directly. "If you browse in the shelves that, in American bookstores, are labeled as New Age, you can find there even Saint Augustine who, as far as I know, was not a fascist. But combining Saint Augustine and Stonehenge – that is a symptom of Ur-Fascism." I think this is the most relevant aspect of his characterization today because it rings true when you look at the combination of memes and traditional imagery that is often used by extremist groups. Fringe figures on the political extremes like "Bronze age pervert" seem to fit into that mold that Eco describes. Viewed through that lens fascism is not so much an appropriate label for the stereotypical arch-conservative who is just reactionary, but you may even find it in tech circles where you often encounter the same obsession with speed, youth, and the future but at the same time no trust in democracy, egalitarianism and so on. https://www.pegc.us/archive/Articles/eco_ur-fascism.pdf https://www.pegc.us/archive/Articles/eco_ur-fascism.pdf
- jadbox 5y agoOn the topid of neo contemptory fascism, I'd highly recommend reading Timothy David Snyder's works. Particularly these two: - On Tyranny: Twenty Lessons from the Twentieth Century - Road To Unfreedom
- LudwigNagasena 5y agoThat often cited list devoid of any context looks like a mishmash of things Umberto Eco personally dislikes. It looks better in the context of his own essay, but even in his essay he is still unable to give a coherent explanation of why those things constitute fascism and why the term “fascism” even has any merit. It looks vaguely intuitively appealing on the surface level, but I don’t think it deserves the fame it has.
- IAmEveryone 5y ago
- fleetwoodsnack 5y agoEco’s method here is as old as time, going back to Socrates’s dialogue with Meno considering what makes a bee a bee. A way to describe something is to identify its common features with other things identified as such. It’s stood the test of time so I’d love to hear your analysis, especially a contradiction.
- LudwigNagasena 5y agoFirst. I don’t want to deny the genius of Socrates, but we came a long way since Antiquity. Umberto Eco was a philosopher, a scholar. We should expect better from him than from Socrates. Second. We know there are cars and it makes sense to talk about cars, to study them, to make legalization and regulations about cars. We also know there are vehicles that include cars, lorries, carts, etc. The same thing with them. We can also talk about means of transportation that would also include planes, ships and so on. The same thing with them. But what if we talk about dogs, cars, oaks and planes? Let’s call the totality of those things foobars. Does it make sense to talk about foobars in general? To study foobars? Does it make sense to get a degree that is concerned with the study of dogs, oaks and cars? To make legalization particular to foobars? Are foobars a real thing in the same way vehicles are? Umberto Eco doesn’t provide a convincing argument that ur-fascism he is talking about is a sensible thing like bees or vehicles and not foobars. To be clear, I don’t deny that it is a real thing, I am just saying that Umberto Eco doesn’t show it in any convincing way.
- Buttons840 5y ago> The enemy is both strong and weak. Any group or person who has had an enemy that is only strong is no longer with us. I'm not sure this is a distinguishing feature, it seems like something that is always true.
- glitchc 5y agoDon’t think I can agree with this list being specific to fascism. It’s a slice that holds true across every human ideology.
- krapp 5y ago>It’s a slice that holds true across every human ideology. It really doesn't. Like, I understand false equivalence is the end form of modern internet political philosophy, because it's the most cynical take and requires the least effort, but the premise that all human ideologies are essentially equivalent to fascism seems at best aggressively naive.
- glitchc 5y agoI think you’ve misunderstood my statement altogether. I did not equate fascism with all ideologies, rather Umberto’s definition of fascism. Can you explain why his attributes are specific to fascism and not to others? Those of us who are less philosophically equipped would love to learn from your expertise.
- KarlKemp 5y agoHere's a list of how the US left doesn't fit the list: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31136874 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31136874
- Animats 5y agoWith the advent of social media, we have new kinds of trouble. Before networked computers, sparsely spaced people on the fringes couldn't easily get together and become a critical mass politically. Now they can. Gays were the first to do this, using AOL. Q-Anon was really good at using Twitter to bring together a movement. The Flat Earth Society is now a reasonably large organization. The "woke" movement would be stuck in the Ivy League as an obscure concept like postmodernism without social media. Note that none of these are militaristic. Fascism has a strong military component. Large numbers of troops in formation haven't been militarily useful for a century, and people's visions of war today involve stuff blowing up and dead bodies, not troops marching. So a militarized vision of the future doesn't sell. Humans still tend to band together under insane males, though. That seems to be hard-wired.
- usrn 5y ago[flagged]
- sanp 5y ago“… Humans still tend to band together under insane males, though. That seems to be hard-wired…” Marine Le Pen is looking to change that.
- sofixa 5y agoHer niece too. There's speculation she's gunning for the next presidential election - she came out of retirement to support Zemmour, and could reasonably unify the far right, is young and relatively popular.
- abeyer 5y agoIf only she were aiming to change the _other_ part of that statement.
- LesZedCB 5y agothere's lot of discussion about modern warfare being waged digitally, or otherwise simulated. though i think the modern new fascist movements have adequately utilized those means. they just also happen to be para-military LARPers as well. and i most certainly don't see a shortage a charismatic women taking the charge in these movements. i mention this only to push back against any idea of "hard wired" which i reject on principle. "natural" machines as complex as "micro-societies banding together under charismatic males" is too complex for me to believe it is not a sociological construct.
- thriftwy 5y agoThe list makes some sense until you see the mental hymnastics special olympics of applying them to whatever movement the user dislikes. A lot of these bullet points are just properties of human culture so they are triggered by most real (not curated, not watered down) societies' descriptions. Reality not only has liberal bias but also tendency towards ur-fascism.
- OtomotO 5y ago"The major ingredient for any recipe of fear, is the unknown." (Taken from Threatened by Michael Jackson) That's one core component of fascism, fear. Of course it's not exclusive to fascism, but it's a very strong motivator. Fear to lose something, fear that some external force comes and takes "what is rightfully yours". Fear is the base for a lot of movements as fear makes people gullible. Fearmongers rejoice!
- avodonosov 5y ago1 - 4 is Romanticism (I include the 4 here because the article presents disagreement as a property of critical rational thinking. Which is protested by romanticism).
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- dang 5y agoRelated: Ur-Fascism By Umberto Eco (1995) [pdf] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30742179 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30742179 - March 2022 (99 comments) Umberto Eco: Ur-Fascism (1995) [pdf] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26156901 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26156901 - Feb 2021 (191 comments) Eternal Fascism (1995) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20455521 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20455521 - July 2019 (28 comments) Eternal Fascism: Fourteen Ways of Looking at a Blackshirt (1995) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13081368 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13081368 - Dec 2016 (1 comment) Ur-Fascism by Umberto Eco (1995) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12173823 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12173823 - July 2016 (173 comments)
- neonate 5y agoThe original essay: https://archive.ph/Q4nzW https://archive.ph/Q4nzW
- sorokod 5y agoI watch Russian TV and "The enemy is both strong and weak" is a striking aspect of its messages.
- xg15 5y agoTo be fair, the west does that as well: The russian army is at the same time so disorganized it can be defeated by a few Ukrainian farmers with tractors and so strong that Ukraine needs heavy weapon support to even have a resemblance of a chance.
- bromuro 5y ago> To be fair, the west does that as well Somewhere I read an anarchic graffiti saying “power is always fascist”.
- sorokod 5y agoThat is true but a distinction should be made between unhindged propaganda and acknowledgement that reality may be nuanced. To give an idea of the first, the Russian TV half jokingly suggested that the first day of the "special operation" would end with fireworks and a victory concert in Kyiv.
- tut-urut-utut 5y agoIt’s frightening how many points suddenly switched from false to true in Europe and the US during the Covid and current war. If we don’t change we are going to the point of no return into fascistic tech dystopia, from where current Chinese system would look like a distant dream of human rights and democracy.
- stepanmazepa 5y ago
- stepanmazepa 5y ago
- TeeMassive 5y agoI can't help but notice how most of Eco's 14 points are similar to the core tenets and typical behaviors of Wokism
- psyc 5y ago3, 4, 6-9, 13, 14
- KarlKemp 5y agoYes, they really hate diversity, love weapons, tend towards manly displays of machoism, abhor weakness, prefer strong leaders giving orders over endless group discussions, seek to return to a glorious traditional past where men were men and women were in the kitchen, and tend towards uniformity (torches, uniforms, short haircuts)
- ineedasername 5y ago>Everybody is educated to become a hero. “In Ur-Fascist ideology, heroism is the norm. I'm not sure how to interpret the rise of Superhero movies in light of this observation. Or their frequent narrative of an outside enemy trying to destroy or enslave us all.
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