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Tangantially related, I remember reading the Asahi Linux wiki [0], and was shocked by this statement about Apple Silicon machines. It's fascinating that Apple h

by yzmtf2008 4y ago

Tangantially related, I remember reading the Asahi Linux wiki [0], and was shocked by this statement about Apple Silicon machines. It's fascinating that Apple has a reputation for being anti-libre, yet the hardware they built is arguably very libre-friendly. > This puts them somewhere between x86 PCs and a libre-first system like the Talos II in terms of freedom to replace firmware and boot components; while a number of blobs are required in order to boot the system, none of those have the ability to take over the OS or compromise it post-boot (unlike, say, Intel ME and AMD PSP on recent systems, or the DMA-capable chips on the LPC bus running opaque blobs that exist on even old ThinkPads). > From a security perspective, these machines may possibly qualify as the most secure general purpose computers available to the public which support third-party OSes, in terms of resistance to attack by non-owners. [0]: https://github.com/AsahiLinux/docs/wiki/Introduction-to-Apple-Silicon https://github.com/AsahiLinux/docs/wiki/Introduction-to-Appl...

ChuckNorris89 4y ago
>yet the hardware they built is arguably very libre-friendly Well they're already in legal trouble for abusing their iOS market dominance with the new EU proposed legislation, they know the tides are turning against big tech, so they didn't lock down the MacBooks preemptively to brace themselves for what's coming, not because Apple has somehow now become a FOSS supporter. Before you applaud Apple for being too libre and think the company has changed direction, keep in mind this is the same company that ships recently launched monitors without user replaceable power cords and locks out in firmware the possibility to upgrade the SSDs on the very expensive Mac Studio despite teardowns showing that it's phisically possible by end users. Also, as a curiosity, why is every thread related to a X86 news, need to bring in the Apple M1 fan army and bang their drums? They serve completely different markets. For those consumers or companies that need to run X86 windows/Linux binaries that have no Mac ports, M1 based hardware is off the table from the start. And the device from this topic is designed to cater to that market, not to compete with M1.
- lumost 4y ago
  I suspect everyone is waiting for the news to drop that either a top of line ARM machine is released outside of Apple, or for AMD/Intel to announce a competitive ARM chip. Computer enthusiasts have heard for ages that X86 is bloated, and that alternate instruction sets are better if only the tooling good catch up. Now that Apple is pushing ARM across the line, and ARM servers are becoming popular - folks want to see the linux ARM machine.
  - cultofmetatron 4y ago
    this describes me to a T. I'm dying for a nice arm laptop with a good form factor with open source bios running linux.
- outside1234 4y ago
  Honestly I have both a Linux machine and an M1 MacBook Pro - so I am interested in both!
- bzzzt 4y ago
  > Before you applaud Apple for being too libre and think the company has changed direction, keep in mind this is the same company that ships recently launched monitors without user replaceable power cords and locks out in firmware the possibility to upgrade the SSDs on the very expensive Mac Studio despite teardowns showing that it's phisically possible by end users. I don't get all those accusations that are constantly recirculated on tech forums. A non-removable power cord has a big advantage: it's hard to lose it. I've never damaged a power cord before (or heard of someone who had) so is it really that damning you should go to a repair shop for something like that? Also, Apple never advertised removable SSD modules. I don't care what they put in that box as long as it works as advertised.
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    >A non-removable power cord has a big advantage: it's hard to lose it. How could you possibly loose a monitor power cord? It's not a portable device that you travel with. But in a home or office setting I can certainly see the cord getting crimped under the weight of the feet of desks or chairs. >so is it really that damning you should go to a repair shop for something like that? Yes, going with your equipment to an Apple Store enquires down time and extra costs that wouldn't be a problem if you could swap the cable yourself in two minutes. Heck, they already do that with the excellent removable mag-safe power cable on the Studio display. Come on! Seriously. They proved they can do it but choose not to because fck the consumers and the environment. >Also, Apple never advertised removable SSD modules. I don't care what they put in that box as long as it works as advertised.* That's the problem. It's not about you, it's about the environment and the e-waste that these company's products generate because while they could be more user upgradable and repairable like the old Macs were that people still upgrade and use today, Apple now spends resources to make sure their new products are not upgradable or repairable, in order to have you buy more of their stuff instead of keep using their old products for longer.
    - dylan604 4y ago
      >cable on the Studio display. This is an interesting bit about how the same company can "design" so many different ways to do the same thing. I wouldn't expect them to have a dedicated team to design power cords/sockets. So teams designing different products at the same time will probably have slightly varying designs. Then I go back to that's what VPs are for to see what's going on within each design team and see how good ideas from one can be shared in the other teams. In other words, how can something as cool and useful as Magsafe be on one thing and not obviously mandated to be used on all the things?
- uuyi 4y ago
  Err the monitor has a user replaceable power cord. I have one and removed it fine. It’s different because an IEC lead won’t fit in the design envelope. Even the stand can be replaced. The SSD is also a misnomer. The influencers couldn’t put a normal SSD in a mac and make it boot. But they don’t understand that there is integration with the crypto at hardware level. And there’s no reason to suspect that apple won’t provide SSD replacements on the open market as part of their self repair program. This is the power of crappy influencer bloggers. Distributing misinformation which everyone parrots verbatim. They are a cancer on the planet and so are the followers. Realistically these are absolutely trivial issues in the scale of things blown way out of proportion by people looking for problems rather than actually using the hardware.
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    >The influencers couldn’t put a normal SSD in a mac and make it boot. No, Linus put the SSD from another Mac Studio into the second slot of a Mac Studio and it wouldn't boot, and it wouldn't even run recovery to format everything and do a factory reset. So Apple is obviously firmware locking the Mac Studios to their factory configuration despite only genuine Apple hardware being used in the upgrade.
    - uuyi 4y ago
      Yes you can. You need to use Configurator to do it. It has been confirmed by iFixit. It’s the same as the Mac Pro was: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT210626 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT210626 . You can’t just swap a disk. You have to actually re-pair it with the crypto and then reprovision it and recovery etc. Again Linus doesn’t know what he’s doing. Another influencer confirming my point. This is not a PC. That’s where the assumption goes wrong.
      - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
        You're making a confusion between replacing and upgrading. He showed you CAN replace the SSD modules but only with identic size ones, but you CAN'T upgrade to bigger ones as that triggers the firmware lock. Watch the video he posted he tried what you mentioned.
- Casteil 4y ago
  > Also, as a curiosity, why is every thread related to a X86 news, need to bring in the Apple M1 fan army and bang their drums? Honestly? Efficiency & battery life without sacrificing speed/performance. If you need great battery life (or simply don't want to have to worry about charging your laptop frequently), it's hard to swallow ~4-10h battery life of a typical X86 laptop when MBA/MBP are consistently achieving 10-16+ with real-world use. ...not to mention the other perks MacBooks hold over their competitors, e.g. fit/finish, display quality, speakers, etc. >They serve completely different markets. Do they, though? With so many things being web-based these days, it's not very hard for most people (without specific needs) to switch to an M1 as their primary device without experiencing problems.
  - alsobrsp 4y ago
    > when MBA/MBP are consistently achieving 10-16+ with real-world use. I never get more than a couple hours on my MBP, 2.5-3 tops.
    - sokoloff 4y ago
      Intel or M1 CPU?
      - als0 4y ago
        Sounds like what's normal for a mid aged Intel Macbook.
    - dmd 4y ago
      Then there's something physically wrong with it. My M1 MBP - which is near-constantly at 100% CPU doing neuroimaging tasks - gets about 9 hours. If I'm not running high-cpu tasks and just web browsing, I've gotten 13-18 typically (e.g., two full days of use between charges).
      - dylan604 4y ago
        >If I'm not running high-cpu tasks and just web browsing, You state this as if they are 2 different things. Sadly, more and more shittily designed sites are using more and more resources. Whether that's just a poorly written bit of JS or a maliciously written bit of JS, web browsing is becoming more compute intensive.
- yokoprime 4y ago
  > Also, as a curiosity, why is every thread related to a X86 news, need to bring in the Apple M1 fan army and bang their drums? What do you mean? The root post complains about M1 and thus it was brought up. It's not like an Apple bro army parachuted in and started comparing x86 to the M1
- d3nj4l 4y ago
  > Also, as a curiosity, why is every thread related to a X86 news, need to bring in the Apple M1 fan army and bang their drums? Because this thread isn't about x86 news; it's about a laptop. And Apple makes laptops, which have the M1 chip in them. It's completely fair to discuss them, especially because one of the selling points of TFA is that it supports coreboot.
thawaya3113 4y ago
It was probably easier for them to be more libre than less during early development. This has often been the case with Apple products. Don’t worry. They will lock it down.
- amelius 4y ago
  Yes, they will lock it down. Hopefully not by blowing some fuses in previously sold devices ...
- Tagbert 4y ago
  People have been proclaiming that for years. “Just wait, Apple will only let you install their software on their machines. It’s going to happen soon. Anytime.”

ChuckNorris89 4y ago

>yet the hardware they built is arguably very libre-friendly Well they're already in legal trouble for abusing their iOS market dominance with the new EU proposed legislation, they know the tides are turning against big tech, so they didn't lock down the MacBooks preemptively to brace themselves for what's coming, not because Apple has somehow now become a FOSS supporter. Before you applaud Apple for being too libre and think the company has changed direction, keep in mind this is the same company that ships recently launched monitors without user replaceable power cords and locks out in firmware the possibility to upgrade the SSDs on the very expensive Mac Studio despite teardowns showing that it's phisically possible by end users. Also, as a curiosity, why is every thread related to a X86 news, need to bring in the Apple M1 fan army and bang their drums? They serve completely different markets. For those consumers or companies that need to run X86 windows/Linux binaries that have no Mac ports, M1 based hardware is off the table from the start. And the device from this topic is designed to cater to that market, not to compete with M1.

lumost 4y ago
I suspect everyone is waiting for the news to drop that either a top of line ARM machine is released outside of Apple, or for AMD/Intel to announce a competitive ARM chip. Computer enthusiasts have heard for ages that X86 is bloated, and that alternate instruction sets are better if only the tooling good catch up. Now that Apple is pushing ARM across the line, and ARM servers are becoming popular - folks want to see the linux ARM machine.
- cultofmetatron 4y ago
  this describes me to a T. I'm dying for a nice arm laptop with a good form factor with open source bios running linux.
outside1234 4y ago
Honestly I have both a Linux machine and an M1 MacBook Pro - so I am interested in both!
bzzzt 4y ago
> Before you applaud Apple for being too libre and think the company has changed direction, keep in mind this is the same company that ships recently launched monitors without user replaceable power cords and locks out in firmware the possibility to upgrade the SSDs on the very expensive Mac Studio despite teardowns showing that it's phisically possible by end users. I don't get all those accusations that are constantly recirculated on tech forums. A non-removable power cord has a big advantage: it's hard to lose it. I've never damaged a power cord before (or heard of someone who had) so is it really that damning you should go to a repair shop for something like that? Also, Apple never advertised removable SSD modules. I don't care what they put in that box as long as it works as advertised.
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  >A non-removable power cord has a big advantage: it's hard to lose it. How could you possibly loose a monitor power cord? It's not a portable device that you travel with. But in a home or office setting I can certainly see the cord getting crimped under the weight of the feet of desks or chairs. >so is it really that damning you should go to a repair shop for something like that? Yes, going with your equipment to an Apple Store enquires down time and extra costs that wouldn't be a problem if you could swap the cable yourself in two minutes. Heck, they already do that with the excellent removable mag-safe power cable on the Studio display. Come on! Seriously. They proved they can do it but choose not to because fck the consumers and the environment. >Also, Apple never advertised removable SSD modules. I don't care what they put in that box as long as it works as advertised.* That's the problem. It's not about you, it's about the environment and the e-waste that these company's products generate because while they could be more user upgradable and repairable like the old Macs were that people still upgrade and use today, Apple now spends resources to make sure their new products are not upgradable or repairable, in order to have you buy more of their stuff instead of keep using their old products for longer.
  - dylan604 4y ago
    >cable on the Studio display. This is an interesting bit about how the same company can "design" so many different ways to do the same thing. I wouldn't expect them to have a dedicated team to design power cords/sockets. So teams designing different products at the same time will probably have slightly varying designs. Then I go back to that's what VPs are for to see what's going on within each design team and see how good ideas from one can be shared in the other teams. In other words, how can something as cool and useful as Magsafe be on one thing and not obviously mandated to be used on all the things?
uuyi 4y ago
Err the monitor has a user replaceable power cord. I have one and removed it fine. It’s different because an IEC lead won’t fit in the design envelope. Even the stand can be replaced. The SSD is also a misnomer. The influencers couldn’t put a normal SSD in a mac and make it boot. But they don’t understand that there is integration with the crypto at hardware level. And there’s no reason to suspect that apple won’t provide SSD replacements on the open market as part of their self repair program. This is the power of crappy influencer bloggers. Distributing misinformation which everyone parrots verbatim. They are a cancer on the planet and so are the followers. Realistically these are absolutely trivial issues in the scale of things blown way out of proportion by people looking for problems rather than actually using the hardware.
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  >The influencers couldn’t put a normal SSD in a mac and make it boot. No, Linus put the SSD from another Mac Studio into the second slot of a Mac Studio and it wouldn't boot, and it wouldn't even run recovery to format everything and do a factory reset. So Apple is obviously firmware locking the Mac Studios to their factory configuration despite only genuine Apple hardware being used in the upgrade.
  - uuyi 4y ago
    Yes you can. You need to use Configurator to do it. It has been confirmed by iFixit. It’s the same as the Mac Pro was: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT210626 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT210626 . You can’t just swap a disk. You have to actually re-pair it with the crypto and then reprovision it and recovery etc. Again Linus doesn’t know what he’s doing. Another influencer confirming my point. This is not a PC. That’s where the assumption goes wrong.
    - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
      You're making a confusion between replacing and upgrading. He showed you CAN replace the SSD modules but only with identic size ones, but you CAN'T upgrade to bigger ones as that triggers the firmware lock. Watch the video he posted he tried what you mentioned.
Casteil 4y ago
> Also, as a curiosity, why is every thread related to a X86 news, need to bring in the Apple M1 fan army and bang their drums? Honestly? Efficiency & battery life without sacrificing speed/performance. If you need great battery life (or simply don't want to have to worry about charging your laptop frequently), it's hard to swallow ~4-10h battery life of a typical X86 laptop when MBA/MBP are consistently achieving 10-16+ with real-world use. ...not to mention the other perks MacBooks hold over their competitors, e.g. fit/finish, display quality, speakers, etc. >They serve completely different markets. Do they, though? With so many things being web-based these days, it's not very hard for most people (without specific needs) to switch to an M1 as their primary device without experiencing problems.
- alsobrsp 4y ago
  > when MBA/MBP are consistently achieving 10-16+ with real-world use. I never get more than a couple hours on my MBP, 2.5-3 tops.
  - sokoloff 4y ago
    Intel or M1 CPU?
    - als0 4y ago
      Sounds like what's normal for a mid aged Intel Macbook.
  - dmd 4y ago
    Then there's something physically wrong with it. My M1 MBP - which is near-constantly at 100% CPU doing neuroimaging tasks - gets about 9 hours. If I'm not running high-cpu tasks and just web browsing, I've gotten 13-18 typically (e.g., two full days of use between charges).
    - dylan604 4y ago
      >If I'm not running high-cpu tasks and just web browsing, You state this as if they are 2 different things. Sadly, more and more shittily designed sites are using more and more resources. Whether that's just a poorly written bit of JS or a maliciously written bit of JS, web browsing is becoming more compute intensive.
yokoprime 4y ago
> Also, as a curiosity, why is every thread related to a X86 news, need to bring in the Apple M1 fan army and bang their drums? What do you mean? The root post complains about M1 and thus it was brought up. It's not like an Apple bro army parachuted in and started comparing x86 to the M1
d3nj4l 4y ago
> Also, as a curiosity, why is every thread related to a X86 news, need to bring in the Apple M1 fan army and bang their drums? Because this thread isn't about x86 news; it's about a laptop. And Apple makes laptops, which have the M1 chip in them. It's completely fair to discuss them, especially because one of the selling points of TFA is that it supports coreboot.

thawaya3113 4y ago

It was probably easier for them to be more libre than less during early development. This has often been the case with Apple products. Don’t worry. They will lock it down.

amelius 4y ago
Yes, they will lock it down. Hopefully not by blowing some fuses in previously sold devices ...
Tagbert 4y ago
People have been proclaiming that for years. “Just wait, Apple will only let you install their software on their machines. It’s going to happen soon. Anytime.”