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Amazon workers at 100 more facilities want to unionize: Amazon Labor Union
- basedgod 5y agoI never understand Amazon's uncompromising stance on efficiency. They'll immediately fire a worker who is a few percentage points below target efficiency. Surely the grind in turnover has to cost them something. What if they moved towards a more incentive based system. Workers who do 60% efficiency targets get minimum wage. 70% gets minimum wage + $X.YY and hour. 100% gets typical wage rate. Adjust hourly wages up and down for the next day, based on the previous days productivity. Then nobody has to get fired for only being at 96% productivity that day. Perhaps the increased job security would offset the somewhat dystopian productivity tracking this would result in. Workers might prefer to work a day at 85% wages to get back up to 100%, than to be fired? Though, I suspect treating their workers better and giving them more benefits, security, and humanity would be about cost neutral compared to their intense current system of treating workers like cogs. You can only squeeze someone for so long.
- ars 5y agoThat's not that different from doing piecework. > Though, I suspect treating their workers better and giving them more benefits, security, and humanity would be about cost neutral compared to their intense current system of treating workers like cogs. You can only squeeze someone for so long. I only see stories of bad treatment from activists, interviews I've seen with actual employees say they are happy with the work, and "people who complain have never done warehouse work".
- aaronbrethorst 5y ago150% annual attrition is not a sign of a healthy workplace. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/06/15/us/amazon-workers.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/06/15/us/amazon-wor...
- tick_tock_tick 5y agoIt's a warehouse job that demands real physical labour each day of course people leave if they get a better offer or even a worse offer that requires less work.
- throw_nbvc1234 5y agoIt's 3 times the rates reported by BLS though they group "Transportation, warehousing, and utilities" into a single category. https://www.bls.gov/news.release/jolts.t16.htm https://www.bls.gov/news.release/jolts.t16.htm
- eptcyka 5y agoIt's also a job that will be there until it can be automated or until Amazon closes, and I think it's the latter that's the closest to happening. Until that happens, it'd be better for everyone involved if the tasks that need doing can be arranged so that long-term employment is viable. A job shouldn't be as exploitative as it can be just because there will be someone who's in a rough enough spot in their life that they will take it.
- fraserharris 5y agoIs that attrition rate inclusive of seasonal employees?
- aaronbrethorst 5y agoThe NYT article I linked to accounts for seasonal workforce differences and has a lengthy methodology section at the bottom.
- eptcyka 5y ago
- hemloc_io 5y agoI have some small insight into this. Often at Amazon you have the "Frugality" principal taking the wheel for short term savings, even with long term massive costs. They're notoriously cheap, think like no free coffee cheap. One of Jeff's guiding principals that he infused the company with, is that workers are lazy and will take advantage of any moment to not be productive if you let them. If you're nice to your workforce they'll take advantage of your kindness to do nothing. This happens on the corporate side too with all the PIP stuff. In the long term I don't think this is going to work at all, either they need to change their policy and attitude or literally no-one will work there given the choice lol. (This is more on the SWE/Corporate side and less on the warehouse side, often Amazon is the only/best game in town on the warehouse side which makes things more tricky.) E.g. At their current attrition rate they will run out of workers in the whole country in a couple of years assuming they keep it up.
- oh_sigh 5y agoActually, at the Amazon office in NYC, the one thing we did get was free coffee :) But it wasn't one of those fancy machines at other FANGs where you press cappuccino and you get a cappuccino. It was more like one salvaged from an old diner, where you would load a couple cups of grinds into a filter and it would percolate down into a gallon jug.
- hemloc_io 5y agoHaha same for us in the West Coast offices. I was working with a senior engineer who was shocked we had one of those big machines when we came in to the office.
- nebula8804 5y ago>In the long term I don't think this is going to work at all, either they need to change their policy and attitude or literally no-one will work there given the choice lol. I wanna see what happens when they cross this threshold. I don't think any company in modern US history has had to deal with this scenario? I suspect they know this and are running out the clock before they are forced to raise wages to compensate. Essentially squeeze as much margin as they can now until they are force to dispense a few more crumbs. Its insane how crazy they are getting with the recruiters. I am a loser who spends too much time on HN. A terrible mediocre dev with no really outstanding roles, yet these people are now finding my internal company email and reaching out. They somehow found my private phone number and are texting me. Who knows what will happen next? Maybe they will knock on my window in the dead of night lol.
- colinmhayes 5y agoI think the mindset that explains amazon's decisions here is that their warehouse workers are only there because they haven't figured out how to automate them yet. Amazon's long term goal is to figure out how to make a robot that can grab items and put them into boxes quickly, but until then they're going to have people who they treat like robots do the work instead. One of the consequences of this mindset is they've made extremely easy to plug new hires in with minimal orientation. Everything is standardized and the computer is organizing everything, no thinking required means no training required.
- nebula8804 5y agoI feel like the whole company may one day go this route. Imagine a company run by an AI thats plugged into the market. No CEO needed, any jobs that haven't been automated will have tasks directly dispensed and monitored by this AI. Its primary goal will be to maximize shareholder value and it will do it with an efficiency and ruthlessness that even Elon Musk can't match. The coming end state of Amazon makes me appreciate my current boring CEO very much.
- zhengyi13 5y agoWe're gonna build a paperclip maximizer on purpose?
- nebula8804 5y agoWhy wouldn't we? Ironically the CEO may lose their job before the coders lol
- sudosysgen 5y agoWe already did, it's called the public corporation.
- ben7799 5y agoAKA Phillip K. Dick's Autofac.. eventually manufacturing more consumers for itself to sell to.
- ryan93 5y agoI wonder if amazon will spin out AWS so that warehouse workers wont have access to its profits.
- simulate-me 5y agoThen Amazon the retail company also won’t have access to the profits. Growing a retail business can be capital intensive. I’m not sure it makes sense to load up the retail portion of the business with debt just to avoid paying the workers.
- ProAm 5y agoThey can become a wholly owned subsidiary and still have access to profits.
- simulate-me 5y agoAWS is already a wholly-owned subsidiary.
- ProAm 5y agoI didnt realize they split it out from the umbrella.
- tick_tock_tick 5y agoI really hope they do I'd much rather be invested in just AWS vs AWS and a logistics network.
- paxys 5y agoWould Amazon even be able to afford its AWS bills then?
- yazaddaruvala 5y agoI've seen the numbers while I worked at Amazon. Its interestingly AWS that can't lose Retail as a customer. Retail can very easily afford the AWS bill and is actually currently still getting ripped off by AWS. Retail really should build its own infra again (or at least use it as a negotiations tactic with AWS). It could easily save 90% of its infra spend if not stuck on AWS (including the internal rates it gets) right now.
- samuelizdat 5y agoIs it true that they got people to show up to the union meetings by offering baked ziti and weed? Is it that easy? What other collective goals can be accomplished this way?
- usr1106 5y agoI have tried to avoid shopping from Amazon for many years. It just feels bad to support ultra-capitalists that show no respect for their employees. Last year I spent less than 50 EUR, this year still zero. Living in a small country it's sometimes hard to avoid them completely because many businesses don't ship here or at least not for a reasonable rate.
- usr1106 5y agoAt work we used to buy computer equipment from them. After repeatedly receiving RAM chips with 50% of the capacity we had ordered and paid for we don't longer use them. I can't really imagine how that happenend. I'd assume they scan whatever they pack. Bad processes or intentional fraud by Amazon did not seem like likely explanations. A poor employee trying to improve their income? Not really sure how that scheme would work. Either way, personally I am glad we switched to other suppliers. Too big market share for one is never a good idea.
- striking 5y agoInventory can be commingled at the Amazon warehouse. Additionally, sellers have been engaging in some pretty wild fraud to retain their position in the listings. I don't trust them anymore either, except maybe for cables or something.
- capitainenemo 5y agoEven for cables it's pretty iffy https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10508494 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10508494 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11021665 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11021665 I seem to have better luck with tech that is bought from Newegg or Target or Walmart and using: Newegg: "Seller → Newegg" Target: "Filter → Sold By → Target" Walmart: "All Filters → Retailer → Walmart" I think 'cause they actually check their supply chains...
- nebula8804 5y agoAll these places are doing their best to make me dread buying from them Newegg: Make it as annoying as possible to filter out all non-newegg sales, make it harder to verify if something is in stock unless I click on the item itself, and those damn ads they insert into the top of the page 1 SECOND after the page has rendered. I start scrolling and all of a sudden everything gets pushed down. This happens every time I load a new page! Target: No realistic indicator of stock whatsoever. I have verified this with multiple employees and stores, the number of items at a particular store is just a pure guess. The search by store is so poorly designed its laughable, I have to select a different store location if I want to view stock and finally still gotta filter out non target sold items. Walmart: Similar issues as Target except this time, the search bar resets your store location every time you begin a new search. I am also creeped out when I was suggested items I bought before in a non logged in account just because I used the same credit card. (I don't know if they still do this) I still prefer to buy from these places but man I really wish there was a store that didn't suck as much as these places. All these please are built by monkey developers. I am thankful these guys still check their supply chains though so maybe I should shut up and stop complaining that America hasn't completely turned into a Chinese bazaar yet(although its getting there).
- giarc 5y ago
- popilewiz 5y ago
- willnonya 5y agoit is possible, if wages dont increase to cover the dues theyll end up making less. whether this is good or bad for them will end up dependong on whether the union is focused on the success of the employees, whoch depends on the wuccess of the company or if yheyre just thete to fill their own coffers.
- rubyn00bie 5y agoThis is just something you’ve made up. There’s literally no reason to think wages won’t go up, nor that they will somehow make less than they do today. Why do you think this? What source are you looking at? I cannot fathom how you would come to these conclusions without you mostly ignoring evidence (I’d be happy to be wrong).
- miguelazo 5y agoIs this a serious question or a Concern Troll? All of the data shows unionized working conditions and benefits are far better than the alternative in our neoliberal hellscape.
- nickff 5y agoPlease don’t accuse people of being trolls, it goes against the HN Guidelines: >” Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, bots, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken.”
- brimble 5y agoHN desperately needs personal block lists. [EDIT] OK, some explanation is in order: because it's very bad at curbing posters who are either trolling or just very bad posters but it's not clear which (which is, precisely, what a classic troll is, when this is achieved on purpose), and its anti-poster-recognition design makes that even worse. Just let me block the ones who I find consistently posting what are either super-ignorant takes or are trolling, because it doesn't really matter to me which is the truth.
- readams 5y ago
- rapind 5y ago> These workers should have many options for similar work. The fact that they choose to stay at Amazon seems to imply that working for Amazon is better than any of the alternatives. Or they are smart enough to realize they have the necessary leverage to unionize. Or both. Or more reasons.
- etchalon 5y agoThe Labor shortages aren't perfectly distributed.
- peanuty1 5y agoThere is a labor shortage for fast food, retail, warehouse, and similar jobs. So the people working in Amazon warehouses have options.
- etchalon 5y agoI'm not sure what you think the word "distributed" means.
- peanuty1 5y agoAh, I was thinking they meant distributed by industry, not location.
- uoaei 5y agoHumans are more than mere capital stock, carted and shuffled about to keep McDonald's open.
- MisterSandman 5y agoDistributed in terms of location, too. You can't expect people to move just because there is another low-wage job open 4 hours away.
- jahlove 5y agoThe Daily podcast released an interview with the Amazon Labor Union guys yesterday, it's pretty good: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/11/podcasts/the-daily/new-york-amazon-union.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/11/podcasts/the-daily/new-yo...
- TaylorAlexander 5y agoI also enjoyed this episode of the Marianne Williamson podcast about the recent trends in unionization with Max Alvarez from 5 days ago: https://youtu.be/SHed96HYC8I https://youtu.be/SHed96HYC8I. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/marianne-williamson-podcast-conversations-that-matter/id1536043190?i=1000556483210 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/marianne-williamson-po...
- rjbwork 5y agoSmalls was on Chapo Trap House last Thursday. Good interview IMO, if you're into that format.
- willnonya 5y agoAmazon warehouses are one of the few instances where unionization makes sense in the 21st century. The problem with this isn't unionization itself but the trend in unions toward damaging their employers more than protecting the workers. The common portrayal of unions as good and corporations as evil is over simplistic and often backwards. I've seen good unions and I've seen bad ones, I don't know which this is yet.
- pmoriarty 5y ago"The common portrayal of unions as good and corporations as evil is over simplistic and often backwards." The common portrayal (at least in the US) is that unions are evil. That's why American unions and union activity have been almost completely squashed in the US for decades now. This sentiment is starting to change a bit as people are finally starting to wake up to the massive inequality in this country and the enormous wealth and power of corporations and the oligarchs who control them vs the barely subsistence existence of the ever growing lower classes.
- robert_foss 5y agoAmerican laws around unions are very weak compared to other countries. Sympathy / Support strikes by neighboring unions are not legal for example. This was what allowed unions to prevail at McDonalds in Denmark. Yes, flipping burgers at McD is a union job Denmark. The BigMac index of Denmark is 4.4, compared to 5.67 in America.
- TaylorAlexander 5y agoWell phrased differently, laws around unions are strong but they are strong in how they limit the power of unions.
- pmoriarty 5y ago> Sympathy / Support strikes by neighboring unions are not legal for example. I don't understand why union members just don't break the law and strike anyway. A lot of the protests during the Civil Rights struggle in America were illegal (and were met with lethal force, dogs, firehoses, etc..) yet the people still protested... and prevailed.
- whiddershins 5y agoI wonder how all of this will affect the seasonal workers who depend on the Amazon work in the fall. The movie Nomadland is an amazing portrayal of the lifestyle and concerns of a community that is connected to Amazon workers, but afaict could find themselves losing out if the warehouses are all union.
- cumwolf 5y agoUPS workers are unionized and they never seem to have a shortage of seasonal employees
- johnNumen 5y agoCorrect, parent comment is confused. UPS hires many seasonal employees, and even pays higher wages during the holiday season to all workers (Union and seasonal). After the holidays if the facility has need for more workers, some of the seasonal workers are offered permanent employment, after which time they become part of the Union.
- tibbon 5y agoMany HVAC employees are unionized too; and rarely have a shortage in the winter.
- Wohlf 5y agoHVAC work isn't that seasonal, emergency repairs are but installations happen in the warm months to offset it.
- MisterTea 5y ago> HVAC work isn't that seasonal It's not seasonal at all and HVAC shops are far more comprehensive than just Heating/Cooling. V is for ventilation so any ventilation system consisting of blowers, fans and ducting is included. Air Conditioning is understood to be cooling but those systems range from window units to massive chiller systems. They can also service refrigeration systems for commercial and industrial use. At work we had an out of warranty water chiller for a laser break down so we called our HVAC guys who found the leak, patched it and recharged the system same day.
- endisneigh 5y agoI don’t see any obvious inherent disadvantages to a union, so… unionize away!
- Sohcahtoa82 5y agoUnions can sometimes prevent an employer from firing a bad employee. Other times, they can get in the way of getting work done by saying "It's not their job", even when the employee was perfectly willing to do it.
- agentdrtran 5y agoThe former is an unavoidable and, considering the benefits, worthwhile outcome of unionization. The latter is to protect bosses from slowly overloading one person/role and using that to increase work for everyone or split the union.
- navbaker 5y agoI ran into this (on a very minor scale) while working at a grocery store part time during my early community college days. The store was unionized, but there were at least three different unions, depending on which department of the store you worked in. I ended up in the bakery working evenings, the only one manning the counter there, right across from the deli. There were times when I couldn't run to the restroom all evening because the three deli employees were in a different union and couldn't come over and watch the bakery counter for five minutes.
- pydry 5y ago>Unions can sometimes prevent an employer from firing a bad employee. Bad managers routinely do the same thing except they come with none of the upsides of unions.
- vhgyu75e6u 5y agoUnions can also block career paths because of seniority preference, a newer guy won't be considered for promotions even if he is more than capable and has showed dedication if the older one are given preference just by longevity. I'm not against unions in general for blue collar jobs but I do believe that they shouldn't have more power than the company, it's all about balance. I come from a country where the lefty populist government used unions to destroy all the private sector by giving them all the power.
- whatshisface 5y agoThe hard part for these unions still lies ahead: negotiating with Amazon and demonstrating their ability to organize strikes if necessary.
- tantalor 5y agoIsn't the hard part making sure the strike can't be broken? Amazon can train these workers very quickly (i.e. 1 day) so it should not be very hard to restaff a whole warehouse.
- marnett 5y agoWhat if the bottleneck of restaffing isn't training time but available labor pool? If Middle America Town #4 already has a majority of the young, able bodied labor force employed by Amazon then Amazon's leverage is heavily reduced; there may not be enough people to restaff.
- alistairSH 5y agoBut the fulfillment centers aren't all that remote. Assuming the list posted here [1] is accurate, they tend to be located on the outskirts of cities. Looking at Virginia (where I live), the only one that I'd really consider rural is Clear Brook, but these days, that's effectively a DC suburb, with plenty of potential workers in nearby Winchester VA, Hagerstown MD, and the I-81 corridor. 1 - https://fba.help/list-of-amazon-fulfillment-centers https://fba.help/list-of-amazon-fulfillment-centers
- chrisseaton 5y agoHistorically companies would bus workers in to break strikes. But anyway these warehouses are near a lot of people (because otherwise… why have the warehouse?)
- sergiotapia 5y agoAmazon is burning through workers like matchsticks. Close to no more matches.
- Decabytes 5y agoIt would sure be something if Amazon went from one of the worst places to work, to one of the best through the creation of unions. If they can do this, then I think it will be held up as an example for other people to unionize. I'm rooting for them
- mattbrewsbytes 5y agoI feel the same. Next should be Walmart.
- Melatonic 5y agoI am not as hopeful as you but that would definitely be something Unions do seem to be making a big comeback
- scarab92 5y agoI sympathise with the employees, however unions have pratically zero chance of gaining concessions from Amazon. Amazon can give more shifts to non striking workers, train new employees in a matter of hours, leverage labour hire companies, bus in workers from other facilities, lean on FBM and other 3PL providers, increase automation. They also have a massive network of fulfilment centers and can easily just ship in fulfilled orders from elsewhere using non union trucking and last mile. Amazon also has deep pockets and a long time horizon, so worst case they'll just allow the facility to be shut down by strikes and let their customers know it'll take another day to deliver their order from elsewhere.
- giraffe_lady 5y agoCompelling argument for seizing and nationalizing amazon right there. That's power way beyond even monopoly, I can't see how it can be justified.
- scarab92 5y agoWhat you are referring to is monopsony power, and Amazon isn't even close to having a monospony on warehouse labor. Warehousing is massive industry and even at their size Amazon is less than 10% of it. The most realistic solution is for workers to spend any spare time they have learning new skills to move into better industries. Trying to make pick pack roles not suck is not realistic.
- kirykl 5y agoAmazon will offer Union as a Service and somehow monetize the management overhead
- ddingus 5y agoYou know I kind of chuckled, but I bet the conversation is likely.
- alexashka 5y agoThey'll call it Union Prime.
- zer0faith 5y agoYou forgot hosted in the cloud, fully automated deployment and secure.
- koolba 5y agoYou joke but I bet whatever software unions use to track member dues and involvement is in dire need of a 2022 upgrade. Everything from soliciting donations, text chains, to coordinating work stoppages. And charging SaaS-style per member makes perfect sense.
- after_care 5y agoMaybe we can encourage unionizing by generating a quality union management software package.
- ddingus 5y agoI am personally happy to see this. I think it's necessary, and we've got a whole lot of people out there that really do need better conditions and better compensation.
- fivecar 5y agoI’m a tech millionaire who worked as an Amazon warehouse associate during Peak 2021. I went in skeptical, but came out convinced that more worker protections are needed. There’s also a Moloch problem here, in that social-media-berating the latest baddie into better behavior, as we did with Walmart 10 years ago, doesn’t solve the problem scalably. We need laws or regulations that ensure a minimum level of decency in a job. For instance, during my stint, mandatory 11-hour extra days could be added to your schedule up to just 18 hours before the surprise shift, which, if you missed it, would get you fired. I lifted 6 tons of boxes a day with my bare hands at Amazon’s flagship warehouse, BFI4. No one had to pee in bottles, but the work was in other ways inhumane at times. Full details at https://peaksalvation.com https://peaksalvation.com, or the Peak Salvation podcast. I’m not sure classic unions are _the_ solution, though. Many unions seem to bind worker protections to non-meritocratic compensation, which can kill motivation. At least it did in BFI4, in very obvious ways. But more basic protections are needed.
- tomohawk 5y agoWhat a crappy position to be in. Stuck between a Big Monopoly and Big Union.
- kennywinker 5y agoOne union representing the 8000 workers at a single warehouse is not "big union". Amazon has about 800,000 employees, so we're talking about a union representing 1% of their workforce. I don't know you, I don't know your history, but from that statement alone I think now might be a good time to re-examine some of the anti-union narrative you've been passively absorbing your whole life.
- jollybean 5y agoThis is good. I believe unions have less value in mature industries where the things the unions generally wanted are baked in, and they drive inefficiency in hiring and have fundamental control over some operational aspects. Auto industry is a bit of an example, likewise the public sector. But where there are 'new games', with no historical labour power, they are often desperately needed. Amazon, Walmart and the entire 'gig economy', fast food / service workers need unions. In 20 years, when regulatory issues have caught up around the 'gig economy' they may be less needed. A lot of the food / service economy issues could be resolved just with a good minimum wage and some basic regulations around scheduling, healthcare etc. but the US isn't there yet. So 'unions'.
- SettembreNero 5y agoGreat for the workers, who seem to want this very much. One thing tho: according to many comments in this thread, unions are obviously and without any doubt bad. I wonder why so much money goes to union busting agencies then
- Melatonic 5y agoIt's almost like people have realized that politicians may not stand up for us against these large mega corporations and we need to form some type of group of workers or something in order to have any real power. Like a club or maybe a ........ ? :-D
- ComradePhil 5y agoI believe it will aid in automating these jobs away, which is great for humanity.
- Blackstrat 5y agoI grew up in a union household. I don't recommend it. The workers at Amazon that chose to unionize should simply have gotten a job elsewhere. Unions will drive up prices and slow down service. Someone pointed to the auto industry. The impact of the union led to greater automation as it will at Amazon. TANSTAAFL.