6 ms·

ID checks, no mail-in voting, strict limits on proxy voting. What amuses me is that the same french newspapers who have no issue with French elections, report U

by cm2187 5y ago

ID checks, no mail-in voting, strict limits on proxy voting. What amuses me is that the same french newspapers who have no issue with French elections, report US republican officials who try to introduce the same safeguards as racists and engaged in voter suppression.

alphakappa 5y ago
Perhaps there’s a difference between a country that hasn’t implemented mail-in voting yet, and a country that has had it, people using it, and now has efforts to take it away. Also, before dismissing the racism concerns around voter ID laws, it would be instructive to look at why this is so. The history of the US is steeped in race, and the concerns cannot be dismissed without understanding history.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- gfodor 5y ago
  What about dismissing them after we understand history? Or is the idea we just simply can’t do something once people decide it is (often vaguely) refuted by history?
- mardifoufs 5y ago
  10% of France's population is Muslim and usually comes from regions that were under direct and brutal French rule not even half a century ago. The Algerian war of independence killed 100 000's of Algerians. There are huge racial ssues in france, it's just that they are swept under the rug or blamed on the minorities themselves. If the US had a similar policy/attitude towards minorities & the historic prejudice they face, you probably wouldnt even have a debate around the racial implications of voting laws. The minority is expected to step up and do the effort even if it's unfair. It is interesting that you said that history cannot be dismissed right after you basically dismissed the historical implications of French policies because... it's just the past and what happened before doesn't really matter?
Scoundreller 5y ago
> ID checks This is straightforward when you have a national ID scheme.
- cm2187 5y ago
  I believe the US has a national ID scheme, just not a mandatory one. You need to request an ID card (though the vast majority of people just use their driving license), but just like you need to proactively get your ID card issued and renewed in France. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_document#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_document#United_State...
  - tablespoon 5y ago
    > I believe the US has a national ID scheme, just not a mandatory one. You need to request an ID card (though the vast majority of people just use their driving license), but just like you need to proactively get your ID card issued and renewed in France. It has national ID standards for drivers licenses, but as far as I know it doesn't issue any kind of national-level ID document besides passports (and passport cards), and you can only get those as a citizen.
    - cm2187 5y ago
      Are non citizens allowed to vote in state and federal elections?
      - tablespoon 5y ago
        > Are non citizens allowed to vote in state and federal elections? No. I kinda lost sight of the context. Also, IIRC, passports are one of the harder and more expensive forms of ID to get.
  - ghaff 5y ago
    Well, the US has passports and passport cards, but they're not inexpensive--in the $100+ range with card a bit less--and pretty much no one gets them if they don't need a passport. (And as sibling comment notes, those are only available to citizens--though that's not really relevant for voting anyway.) Drivers licenses and equivalent ID are at the state level although there's now a fairly high level of standardization (if you get a REAL ID version--required for federal purposes like flying). So basically government-issued photo ID is fairly readily available but it's (often) not free and can get tricky in cases where, for example, you don't have a permanent address. And, unless you have an existing chain of ID documents, you need your birth certificate at some point.)
JAlexoid 5y ago
The systems are completely different and your comment is just plain ignorance. Elections in France are on a Sunday, when almost everyone is off work.(in US it's always Tuesday?) Photo IDs are low cost there and mandatory. Everyone has a photo ID. Polling stations are not a "million miles away", you will not see regular multi hour lines in France. And finally - you cannot win, unless you get at least 50% + 1 vote. In US and UK - a simple plurality of votes makes you a winner.
- Jiejeing 5y ago
  FWIW in france you can either use a passport, your national ID card, your social security card, or plenty of other official documents (all with photo, https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F1361 https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F1361). So there is no barrier at all for the voting ID.
- guerby 5y ago
  There's about one polling station for 1000 voters in France, hours are from 8am to 6 to 8pm depending on location and election. So 36-43 seconds per voter if everyone shows up, which never happens (highest is about 85%): https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstention_%C3%A9lectorale_en_France https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstention_%C3%A9lectorale_en_...
- ajmurmann 5y ago
  How many businesses are open in France on Sundays? Wikipedia tells me "large super markets" can open for up to six hours. Does that mean that in practice all small businesses and other stores, like huge book stores are closed? I know in Germany voting also happens on Sunday and everything but restaurants and gas stations used to be closed on Sundays.
  - guerby 5y ago
    In France gardening shops and restaurants are open on sundays Some small supermarket/stores are open sunday morning. Some small stores (family managed) are open all sunday (I have one 100 meters from my home which is open 8am to 8pm all days).
outside1234 5y ago
The problem with the US approach is that the restrictions are targeted at groups - versus this approach which is uniform. For example, you can't get an absentee ballot in Texas. Well, unless you are old and a likely Republican voter, then it's totally ok.
- ghaff 5y ago
  Or you say that you're going to be out of the county during the voting period.
yohannparis 5y ago
To get an ID in France: - Go online, request a birth-certificate, wait a week to receive it by mail. - Go to the city-hall, with a photo, birth-certificate, and proof of residence, then fill a form, pay nothing. - Wait ~6 weeks, pick-up at city-hall ID, valid for 15 years. To get an ID in USA: - Hope you still are in possession of the only copy of your birth-certificate. - If not, hope that your church/city-hall, can provide you a copy. - Go to the DMV, birth-certificate, two proof of residences. - Wait couple of weeks to receive by mail. Things are much simpler in France, cost nothing, and because it is mandatory to have an ID, it is never an issue to provide one.
- rayiner 5y ago
  > To get an ID in USA: - Hope you still are in possession of the only copy of your birth-certificate. - If not, hope that your church/city-hall, can provide you a copy. - Go to the DMV, birth-certificate, two proof of residences. - Wait couple of weeks to receive by mail. Do you live in the U.S. or do you just read about it online? I live in a historically Republican county that is suburban/rural. I needed a replacement copy of my son's birth certificate the other day. I went over to my county records office (which is 5 minutes away) and they gave me a copy in 30 minutes. Waiting six weeks to get an ID in France? In my state your drivers license is delivered in under 10 days, typically just 4-5.
  - JAlexoid 5y ago
    Driver's license in US vs passport in France - not same. Also are you completely not self aware? "went over to my county records office" and "hope that your church/city-hall, can provide you a copy" - are literally the same thing. You just happen to live nearby the place where your birth certificate was recorded. Let alone - low density areas, that are much more republican, also have easier access to government services.
    - rayiner 5y ago
      OP said “to get an ID in France” not “get a passport.” OP was wrong about US birth certificates. They’re not recorded by “churches” they’re recorded by each state. My county office issues certified copies of Maryland birth certificates. (Yes you need to be born in the state, but most Americans live in the state they were born in, just like most Europeans live in the EU member country they were born in.)
scythe 5y ago
>"strict limits" on proxy voting The US doesn't allow proxy voting in elections at all. Furthermore, it was banned to deliberately disenfranchise illiterate people in some cases: >In Alabama, the Perry County Civic League's members' assisting illiterate voters by marking a ballot on their behalf was deemed "proxy voting" and "voting more than once" and thus held to be illegal. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxy_voting#United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxy_voting#United_States Talk about a false equivalence.
pif 5y ago
I think that requesting an ID to vote is the right thing. Getting an ID being an issue is the real problem.

by cm2187 5y ago

alphakappa 5y ago

Perhaps there’s a difference between a country that hasn’t implemented mail-in voting yet, and a country that has had it, people using it, and now has efforts to take it away. Also, before dismissing the racism concerns around voter ID laws, it would be instructive to look at why this is so. The history of the US is steeped in race, and the concerns cannot be dismissed without understanding history.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
gfodor 5y ago
What about dismissing them after we understand history? Or is the idea we just simply can’t do something once people decide it is (often vaguely) refuted by history?
mardifoufs 5y ago
10% of France's population is Muslim and usually comes from regions that were under direct and brutal French rule not even half a century ago. The Algerian war of independence killed 100 000's of Algerians. There are huge racial ssues in france, it's just that they are swept under the rug or blamed on the minorities themselves. If the US had a similar policy/attitude towards minorities & the historic prejudice they face, you probably wouldnt even have a debate around the racial implications of voting laws. The minority is expected to step up and do the effort even if it's unfair. It is interesting that you said that history cannot be dismissed right after you basically dismissed the historical implications of French policies because... it's just the past and what happened before doesn't really matter?

Scoundreller 5y ago

> ID checks This is straightforward when you have a national ID scheme.

cm2187 5y ago
I believe the US has a national ID scheme, just not a mandatory one. You need to request an ID card (though the vast majority of people just use their driving license), but just like you need to proactively get your ID card issued and renewed in France. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_document#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_document#United_State...
- tablespoon 5y ago
  > I believe the US has a national ID scheme, just not a mandatory one. You need to request an ID card (though the vast majority of people just use their driving license), but just like you need to proactively get your ID card issued and renewed in France. It has national ID standards for drivers licenses, but as far as I know it doesn't issue any kind of national-level ID document besides passports (and passport cards), and you can only get those as a citizen.
  - cm2187 5y ago
    Are non citizens allowed to vote in state and federal elections?
    - tablespoon 5y ago
      > Are non citizens allowed to vote in state and federal elections? No. I kinda lost sight of the context. Also, IIRC, passports are one of the harder and more expensive forms of ID to get.
- ghaff 5y ago
  Well, the US has passports and passport cards, but they're not inexpensive--in the $100+ range with card a bit less--and pretty much no one gets them if they don't need a passport. (And as sibling comment notes, those are only available to citizens--though that's not really relevant for voting anyway.) Drivers licenses and equivalent ID are at the state level although there's now a fairly high level of standardization (if you get a REAL ID version--required for federal purposes like flying). So basically government-issued photo ID is fairly readily available but it's (often) not free and can get tricky in cases where, for example, you don't have a permanent address. And, unless you have an existing chain of ID documents, you need your birth certificate at some point.)

JAlexoid 5y ago

The systems are completely different and your comment is just plain ignorance. Elections in France are on a Sunday, when almost everyone is off work.(in US it's always Tuesday?) Photo IDs are low cost there and mandatory. Everyone has a photo ID. Polling stations are not a "million miles away", you will not see regular multi hour lines in France. And finally - you cannot win, unless you get at least 50% + 1 vote. In US and UK - a simple plurality of votes makes you a winner.

Jiejeing 5y ago
FWIW in france you can either use a passport, your national ID card, your social security card, or plenty of other official documents (all with photo, https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F1361 https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F1361). So there is no barrier at all for the voting ID.
guerby 5y ago
There's about one polling station for 1000 voters in France, hours are from 8am to 6 to 8pm depending on location and election. So 36-43 seconds per voter if everyone shows up, which never happens (highest is about 85%): https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstention_%C3%A9lectorale_en_France https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstention_%C3%A9lectorale_en_...
ajmurmann 5y ago
How many businesses are open in France on Sundays? Wikipedia tells me "large super markets" can open for up to six hours. Does that mean that in practice all small businesses and other stores, like huge book stores are closed? I know in Germany voting also happens on Sunday and everything but restaurants and gas stations used to be closed on Sundays.
- guerby 5y ago
  In France gardening shops and restaurants are open on sundays Some small supermarket/stores are open sunday morning. Some small stores (family managed) are open all sunday (I have one 100 meters from my home which is open 8am to 8pm all days).

outside1234 5y ago

The problem with the US approach is that the restrictions are targeted at groups - versus this approach which is uniform. For example, you can't get an absentee ballot in Texas. Well, unless you are old and a likely Republican voter, then it's totally ok.

ghaff 5y ago
Or you say that you're going to be out of the county during the voting period.

yohannparis 5y ago

To get an ID in France: - Go online, request a birth-certificate, wait a week to receive it by mail. - Go to the city-hall, with a photo, birth-certificate, and proof of residence, then fill a form, pay nothing. - Wait ~6 weeks, pick-up at city-hall ID, valid for 15 years. To get an ID in USA: - Hope you still are in possession of the only copy of your birth-certificate. - If not, hope that your church/city-hall, can provide you a copy. - Go to the DMV, birth-certificate, two proof of residences. - Wait couple of weeks to receive by mail. Things are much simpler in France, cost nothing, and because it is mandatory to have an ID, it is never an issue to provide one.

rayiner 5y ago
> To get an ID in USA: - Hope you still are in possession of the only copy of your birth-certificate. - If not, hope that your church/city-hall, can provide you a copy. - Go to the DMV, birth-certificate, two proof of residences. - Wait couple of weeks to receive by mail. Do you live in the U.S. or do you just read about it online? I live in a historically Republican county that is suburban/rural. I needed a replacement copy of my son's birth certificate the other day. I went over to my county records office (which is 5 minutes away) and they gave me a copy in 30 minutes. Waiting six weeks to get an ID in France? In my state your drivers license is delivered in under 10 days, typically just 4-5.
- JAlexoid 5y ago
  Driver's license in US vs passport in France - not same. Also are you completely not self aware? "went over to my county records office" and "hope that your church/city-hall, can provide you a copy" - are literally the same thing. You just happen to live nearby the place where your birth certificate was recorded. Let alone - low density areas, that are much more republican, also have easier access to government services.
  - rayiner 5y ago
    OP said “to get an ID in France” not “get a passport.” OP was wrong about US birth certificates. They’re not recorded by “churches” they’re recorded by each state. My county office issues certified copies of Maryland birth certificates. (Yes you need to be born in the state, but most Americans live in the state they were born in, just like most Europeans live in the EU member country they were born in.)

scythe 5y ago

>"strict limits" on proxy voting The US doesn't allow proxy voting in elections at all. Furthermore, it was banned to deliberately disenfranchise illiterate people in some cases: >In Alabama, the Perry County Civic League's members' assisting illiterate voters by marking a ballot on their behalf was deemed "proxy voting" and "voting more than once" and thus held to be illegal. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxy_voting#United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxy_voting#United_States Talk about a false equivalence.

pif 5y ago

I think that requesting an ID to vote is the right thing. Getting an ID being an issue is the real problem.