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Voting in France: Paper ballots, cast in person; no machines

75 points by seszett 5y ago

cm2187 5y ago
ID checks, no mail-in voting, strict limits on proxy voting. What amuses me is that the same french newspapers who have no issue with French elections, report US republican officials who try to introduce the same safeguards as racists and engaged in voter suppression.
- alphakappa 5y ago
  Perhaps there’s a difference between a country that hasn’t implemented mail-in voting yet, and a country that has had it, people using it, and now has efforts to take it away. Also, before dismissing the racism concerns around voter ID laws, it would be instructive to look at why this is so. The history of the US is steeped in race, and the concerns cannot be dismissed without understanding history.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - gfodor 5y ago
    What about dismissing them after we understand history? Or is the idea we just simply can’t do something once people decide it is (often vaguely) refuted by history?
  - mardifoufs 5y ago
    10% of France's population is Muslim and usually comes from regions that were under direct and brutal French rule not even half a century ago. The Algerian war of independence killed 100 000's of Algerians. There are huge racial ssues in france, it's just that they are swept under the rug or blamed on the minorities themselves. If the US had a similar policy/attitude towards minorities & the historic prejudice they face, you probably wouldnt even have a debate around the racial implications of voting laws. The minority is expected to step up and do the effort even if it's unfair. It is interesting that you said that history cannot be dismissed right after you basically dismissed the historical implications of French policies because... it's just the past and what happened before doesn't really matter?
- Scoundreller 5y ago
  > ID checks This is straightforward when you have a national ID scheme.
  - cm2187 5y ago
    I believe the US has a national ID scheme, just not a mandatory one. You need to request an ID card (though the vast majority of people just use their driving license), but just like you need to proactively get your ID card issued and renewed in France. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_document#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_document#United_State...
    - tablespoon 5y ago
      > I believe the US has a national ID scheme, just not a mandatory one. You need to request an ID card (though the vast majority of people just use their driving license), but just like you need to proactively get your ID card issued and renewed in France. It has national ID standards for drivers licenses, but as far as I know it doesn't issue any kind of national-level ID document besides passports (and passport cards), and you can only get those as a citizen.
      - cm2187 5y ago
        Are non citizens allowed to vote in state and federal elections?
        tablespoon 5y ago
        > Are non citizens allowed to vote in state and federal elections? No. I kinda lost sight of the context. Also, IIRC, passports are one of the harder and more expensive forms of ID to get.
    - ghaff 5y ago
      Well, the US has passports and passport cards, but they're not inexpensive--in the $100+ range with card a bit less--and pretty much no one gets them if they don't need a passport. (And as sibling comment notes, those are only available to citizens--though that's not really relevant for voting anyway.) Drivers licenses and equivalent ID are at the state level although there's now a fairly high level of standardization (if you get a REAL ID version--required for federal purposes like flying). So basically government-issued photo ID is fairly readily available but it's (often) not free and can get tricky in cases where, for example, you don't have a permanent address. And, unless you have an existing chain of ID documents, you need your birth certificate at some point.)
- JAlexoid 5y ago
  The systems are completely different and your comment is just plain ignorance. Elections in France are on a Sunday, when almost everyone is off work.(in US it's always Tuesday?) Photo IDs are low cost there and mandatory. Everyone has a photo ID. Polling stations are not a "million miles away", you will not see regular multi hour lines in France. And finally - you cannot win, unless you get at least 50% + 1 vote. In US and UK - a simple plurality of votes makes you a winner.
  - Jiejeing 5y ago
    FWIW in france you can either use a passport, your national ID card, your social security card, or plenty of other official documents (all with photo, https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F1361 https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F1361). So there is no barrier at all for the voting ID.
  - guerby 5y ago
    There's about one polling station for 1000 voters in France, hours are from 8am to 6 to 8pm depending on location and election. So 36-43 seconds per voter if everyone shows up, which never happens (highest is about 85%): https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstention_%C3%A9lectorale_en_France https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstention_%C3%A9lectorale_en_...
  - ajmurmann 5y ago
    How many businesses are open in France on Sundays? Wikipedia tells me "large super markets" can open for up to six hours. Does that mean that in practice all small businesses and other stores, like huge book stores are closed? I know in Germany voting also happens on Sunday and everything but restaurants and gas stations used to be closed on Sundays.
    - guerby 5y ago
      In France gardening shops and restaurants are open on sundays Some small supermarket/stores are open sunday morning. Some small stores (family managed) are open all sunday (I have one 100 meters from my home which is open 8am to 8pm all days).
- outside1234 5y ago
  The problem with the US approach is that the restrictions are targeted at groups - versus this approach which is uniform. For example, you can't get an absentee ballot in Texas. Well, unless you are old and a likely Republican voter, then it's totally ok.
  - ghaff 5y ago
    Or you say that you're going to be out of the county during the voting period.
- yohannparis 5y ago
  To get an ID in France: - Go online, request a birth-certificate, wait a week to receive it by mail. - Go to the city-hall, with a photo, birth-certificate, and proof of residence, then fill a form, pay nothing. - Wait ~6 weeks, pick-up at city-hall ID, valid for 15 years. To get an ID in USA: - Hope you still are in possession of the only copy of your birth-certificate. - If not, hope that your church/city-hall, can provide you a copy. - Go to the DMV, birth-certificate, two proof of residences. - Wait couple of weeks to receive by mail. Things are much simpler in France, cost nothing, and because it is mandatory to have an ID, it is never an issue to provide one.
  - rayiner 5y ago
    > To get an ID in USA: - Hope you still are in possession of the only copy of your birth-certificate. - If not, hope that your church/city-hall, can provide you a copy. - Go to the DMV, birth-certificate, two proof of residences. - Wait couple of weeks to receive by mail. Do you live in the U.S. or do you just read about it online? I live in a historically Republican county that is suburban/rural. I needed a replacement copy of my son's birth certificate the other day. I went over to my county records office (which is 5 minutes away) and they gave me a copy in 30 minutes. Waiting six weeks to get an ID in France? In my state your drivers license is delivered in under 10 days, typically just 4-5.
    - JAlexoid 5y ago
      Driver's license in US vs passport in France - not same. Also are you completely not self aware? "went over to my county records office" and "hope that your church/city-hall, can provide you a copy" - are literally the same thing. You just happen to live nearby the place where your birth certificate was recorded. Let alone - low density areas, that are much more republican, also have easier access to government services.
      - rayiner 5y ago
        OP said “to get an ID in France” not “get a passport.” OP was wrong about US birth certificates. They’re not recorded by “churches” they’re recorded by each state. My county office issues certified copies of Maryland birth certificates. (Yes you need to be born in the state, but most Americans live in the state they were born in, just like most Europeans live in the EU member country they were born in.)
- scythe 5y ago
  >"strict limits" on proxy voting The US doesn't allow proxy voting in elections at all. Furthermore, it was banned to deliberately disenfranchise illiterate people in some cases: >In Alabama, the Perry County Civic League's members' assisting illiterate voters by marking a ballot on their behalf was deemed "proxy voting" and "voting more than once" and thus held to be illegal. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxy_voting#United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxy_voting#United_States Talk about a false equivalence.
- pif 5y ago
  I think that requesting an ID to vote is the right thing. Getting an ID being an issue is the real problem.
seanw444 5y ago
Sounds pretty based to me. Leave voting alone. Write your vote on paper, bring it in yourself. Sure there's room for improvement in the process, but sprinkling networked computers in to solve every problem is the wrong approach.
- kingcharles 5y ago
  Off-topic, but do you mean "biased" when you say "based"? I feel like I'm in some parallel universe because I swear for the last 6 months I've not seen a single person spell biased right. Was there a meeting where everyone agreed to make a confusing change to the spelling and no-one told me about it?
  - slackfan 5y ago
    No, based =/= biased.
    - smnrchrds 5y ago
      > Based is a slang term that originally meant to be addicted to crack cocaine (or acting like you were), but was reclaimed by rapper Lil B for being yourself and not caring what others think of you—to carry yourself with swagger. > Based has been appropriated by the alt-right online as a general term of praise, as if “un-woke.” https://www.dictionary.com/e/slang/based/ https://www.dictionary.com/e/slang/based/ Well, TIL.
  - eti 5y ago
    see: https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Based+God https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Based+God && https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=based https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=based
    - maxerickson 5y ago
      Also https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/based-god https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/based-god
mardifoufs 5y ago
>France doesn’t do mail-in voting, early voting or use voting machines en masse like the United States. I get not doing mail-in-voting but what's wrong with early voting? I remember there was a huge line in front of the french embassy here last elections because there's no exception to that rule for expats. For a city like Montreal with a lot of French immigrants it means a single vote office for thousands of people. Compare that to the US where you can email your vote in a lot of states if you live overseas... and it becomes clear that access to vote is just not a priority for France. >What is the DoD Fax Service? If you need to send your election materials to your election official by fax but do not have access to a fax machine you can email them to fax@fvap.gov and FVAP will fax your election materials for you. https://www.democratsabroad.org/de_how_to_fax_your_ballot_by_without_a_fax_machine https://www.democratsabroad.org/de_how_to_fax_your_ballot_by... https://www.fvap.gov/eo/overview/resources https://www.fvap.gov/eo/overview/resources
- cm2187 5y ago
  I think it clashes with all sort of election rules, like the candidates must have had the same air time during the campaign (can’t guarantee that every day of the campaign), also there is a cool down period 24h before the vote where the campaigns are suspended, you can’t publish polls or discuss the candidates programs in the media. I am not sure why you would blame it on nefarious motives.
- historia_novae 5y ago
  It's very understandable for prevent frauds. The last election in the US was disputed and disputable in the first place because of how easy it is to cheat. > Compare that to the US where you can email your vote in a lot of states if you live overseas... and it becomes clear that access to vote is just not a priority for France. That's not true. As a former expat, the only annoying thing is establishing a proxy since it can only be done during "tournées consulaires" dedicated for it, that are of course very rare. I feel the election is fairer without possible easy way to hack-in votes.
  - specialist 5y ago
    What do you mean by fraud? By voters? Every investigation of postal ballots have shown it to be very rare. Most problems are simple mistakes. By administrators? Postal balloting is neither more or less prone to cheating than the other electronic voting and tabulation systems. Meaning terrible. Typically, the vulnerable parts are voter registration (eg caging, purges), signature verification, ballot scanning ahead of election day, and adjudication. -- I opposed my state and county switching to all postal balloting. My #1 concern was that it'd disenfranchise more people (eg USPS loses/misdelivers ~1% of all ballots, some ~40k voters have their signatures challenged every election), resulting in reduced turnout and long-term participation. On this I was proven wrong. Turnout increased. Another concern is that postal balloting enables ballot chasing. Which increases the cost of campaigning as well as leads to voter fatigue and alienation. This appears to be true. But as long as turnout remains higher, the tradeoff seems worthwhile.
trothamel 5y ago
How many elections occur at the same time in France? I've heard that in European elections, you tend to vote for one person at a time, where in the US, it's pretty routine to vote for three or more. (In presidential years, you vote for presidential electors, a representative, and 2/3 of the times a senator, and then beyond that there are state and local elections.) I'm wonder how much of the difference comes from counting one versus multiple elections at the same time.
- lesquivemeau 5y ago
  During presidential elections you only vote for the president, then you vote for part of the parliament during "les législatives", 2 months after. On the other end, some local elections take part at the same time (ex: regional and departmental)
- dathinab 5y ago
  In Germany for the major votes you have two votes, then there are often also additional votes bundles in, so 3 or 4 votes in one setting are not uncommon. There are no voting machines. And it, in general, works without problems. (Mail in voting is possible but not used that much.)
- JAlexoid 5y ago
  It's fast, easy and low cost - that's what matters. And it depends, often elections don't coincide and the election process is just a few weeks long.
- klaustopher 5y ago
  Not sure about France, but next door in Germany we try to put multiple elections on the same date, because organizing the polling stations is always the most expensive thing. So it's not uncommon to have some of city mayor, city council, regional, state and federal and European elections fall onto the same date. I think the "worst" I've seen as a volunteer was 4 elections on the same day. Counting process starts by splitting the ballots (if we have all of them in one urn), and then counting and tallying them one election at a time. The ballots are distinguished by different colored paper. One voting district is usually around ~1000 voters, out of those, before Covid ~10-20% did mail-in-voting, during Covid it was ~40-50%. Then with a normal voter turnup of around 60-70% depending on the elections that are held, we end up with a few hundred ballots to count per election, with a staff of normally 8 people... Polling stations close at 6pm, and the latest I have left the voting station after counting was 8:30pm.
scythe 5y ago
>People who can't go to the polls for various reasons can authorize someone else to vote for them. >To do so, a voter must fill out a form ahead of time and bring it to a police station. A person can be the proxy of no more than one voter living in France — and potentially one additional person living abroad. >Up to 7% of people voted by proxy in the last presidential election five years ago. It's not that France isn't accounting for the people who can't make it to the polls on Election Day. It's just that they're doing it differently.
- cm2187 5y ago
  In fact despite these constraints the turnout in France is traditionally much higher than in the UK and the US which have a much more relaxed system. Though turnout is trending downward quickly.
_hcuq 5y ago
In the USA, next step is widespread intimidation at the physical polling stations.
a-priori 5y ago
Canadian elections are also done on paper, mostly in person (though mail-in voting is allowed, and has became more popular during the pandemic), counted by hand. We don't use any machines on the federal level, though at the provincial level there's sometimes tabulator machines to speed up counting and even that's not much of a benefit. This is true at the municipal level too, which have more complicated ballots to vote for mayor, councillor and school board trustee. Still done on paper ballots, counted by hand. Despite it being a manual process, the results are always available within a few hours of closing time. This is democracy, not rocket science. It does not and should not require technology to operate elections.
clarionbell 5y ago
Bringing ID (government issued, with photo and basic life details) and being registered is also requirement in Czechia, along with hand counting the votes obviously. Honestly, when I first heard how US handles voting I couldn't believe how open to abuse it is. In a way, I'm surprised that election integrity hasn't been questioned sooner. Edit: To clarify, I don't believe the 2020 elections were affected by fraud, in fact they were proven not to be. Just that the process doesn't seem very trustworthy to me in general.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- a-priori 5y ago
  Would it surprise you to hear that in Canada, we accept a very broad range of ID (a bank statement and a lease agreement for an apartment would do)? And even if you don't have any of that, you can still vote if another registered voter vouches for you? https://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=vot&dir=ids&document=index&lang=e https://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=vot&dir=ids&do... You can also register on election night. I did this a couple years ago when there was a provincial election shortly after we moved. And yet we don't have widespread electoral fraud.
  - LeapingLennie 5y ago
    In Australia we don't even need to present ID. Just tell the official your name and address and they cross it off a list. It's hard to believe a system that simple could work but as far as I know there haven't ever been any issues.
  - Markoff 5y ago
    Vouching for you was acceptable in Slovakia/Czechia in past, but it seems they removed it in recent years since I can't find any information about it, but I clearly remember if election commitee member could confirm your identity or 1-2 other people they could let you vote even without any ID card. Btw. there is really no registration in Czechia/Slovakia, you will get voting tickets automatically to your permanent residence address without any additional registration, registration is necessary only if you want vote via mail or you want voting pass to vote outside your permanent residence.
frequent 5y ago
noteworthy that outside from presidential elections, candidates need to purchase and provide these paper ballots (plus official flyers mailed to registered voters) on their own cost and only get reimboursed if they score more than 5%.
- yohannparis 5y ago
  Also candidates parties received money from the government based on members numbers.
  - frequent 5y ago
    to be precise, public funding is based on the results of the upcoming legislative (national assembly) elections. France has 577 districts, each elect on representative in two rounds. Parties receive about 40k€/year for every elected representative and another ~1.40€/vote/year for every vote in these elections provided (!) you make more than 1% in at least 50 districts. These amounts get reduced considerably if you do not respect gender-parity across your candidates. More info on https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financement_des_partis_politiques_fran%C3%A7ais https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financement_des_partis_politiq...
Markoff 5y ago
Isn't this standard in most of the world? Well some countries add mail-in voting, but that's about it, almost no countries use machines like US.
rayiner 5y ago
On a single day!
gfodor 5y ago
Mass mail in voting is a disaster, and people in the US now largely support it because of politics, not because it improves the integrity of elections.
- ghaff 5y ago
  Voting processes are to a large degree about balancing tradeoffs. The point of mail in voting is to decrease the friction of voting, i.e. you don't need to go to a polling place on a specific day.
  - gfodor 5y ago
    Yes, in exchange for removing the guarantees of the secret ballot and a secure chain of custody for ballots. Which, at scale, is a disaster - and basically eradicates trust in elections. The mass mail in voting thing was supposed to be due to a national health emergency, reasonable people were willing to temporarily reduce those guarantees in the name of public safety. How foolish of us! Now we can see the party in power has used it as a bait and switch to try to make these changes permanent. Why?
    - gmac 5y ago
      Other countries, such as the UK, have had postal voting for a long time. I've heard no evidence that there's systematic abuse. What destroys trust is not postal voting. It's a losing party actively spreading disinformation in an attempt to discredit an election result they don't like.
      - gfodor 5y ago
        The problem, as I stated, is not postal voting. It is mass postal voting. Typically mail in voting is opt-in. Relatively few ballots are printed, and the recipient is engaged to ensure the process completes safely. The blast radius of the vulnerabilities it creates are small, and the vulnerabilities themselves are much more narrow given the selective nature of it. This is a totally acceptable mechanism whereby a relative few individuals vote in the most secure possible method they can participate in, and it doesn’t compromise the entire system. Now, in California, all mailboxes are flooded with blank ballots for all elections. It is insanity. The entire election process here has its integrity hinged upon a signature on an envelope. Which, by the way, is quickly separated from the ballot for counting, ensuring it is fundamentally impossible to do an audit. You’d have to be a fool to take seriously the idea close, highly contested elections in California are assured to be accurate results. The primary goal of elections is to make the public feel confidence they have a fair representative government. In other words, if basic logic dictates that you shouldn’t trust the election system, you should expect large parts of the public will stop believing they live in a democracy and act as people always do in such situations.
jimbob45 5y ago
To be clear, the limiting factor in the US is not will: everyone knows and understands that paper ballots are the gold standard. The problem is that electronic machines are much much cheaper and it’s tough to explain to voters why you saw fit to short the school district’s budget in favor of the elections budget.
newbamboo 5y ago
It may actually make sense for a nation to try and protect public trust in the electoral process. We have gone in the opposite direction in the United States, and my gut tells me that mail in ballots to every mailbox (and in dumpsters and boxes left randomly by te side of the road) wasn’t a good thing for our nation, in the greater sweep of history.
joeman1000 5y ago
I’ve seen how paper ballots can be manipulated in Russia and Ukraine. There are many videos available showing ‘volunteers’ poorly obscuring surveillance cameras and stuffing the ballot boxes full of false votes. They also threw out many votes (from the candidate they were paid to sabotage).
alkonaut 5y ago
I also vote on paper. But file my taxes for free with a few taps in a mobile app provided by the tax authority. This seems like the correct priority…
aborsy 5y ago
A lot of things in France use the same system that’s been used for generations. No surprise.

75 points by seszett 5y ago

ID checks, no mail-in voting, strict limits on proxy voting. What amuses me is that the same french newspapers who have no issue with French elections, report US republican officials who try to introduce the same safeguards as racists and engaged in voter suppression.

alphakappa 5y ago
Perhaps there’s a difference between a country that hasn’t implemented mail-in voting yet, and a country that has had it, people using it, and now has efforts to take it away. Also, before dismissing the racism concerns around voter ID laws, it would be instructive to look at why this is so. The history of the US is steeped in race, and the concerns cannot be dismissed without understanding history.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- gfodor 5y ago
  What about dismissing them after we understand history? Or is the idea we just simply can’t do something once people decide it is (often vaguely) refuted by history?
- mardifoufs 5y ago
  10% of France's population is Muslim and usually comes from regions that were under direct and brutal French rule not even half a century ago. The Algerian war of independence killed 100 000's of Algerians. There are huge racial ssues in france, it's just that they are swept under the rug or blamed on the minorities themselves. If the US had a similar policy/attitude towards minorities & the historic prejudice they face, you probably wouldnt even have a debate around the racial implications of voting laws. The minority is expected to step up and do the effort even if it's unfair. It is interesting that you said that history cannot be dismissed right after you basically dismissed the historical implications of French policies because... it's just the past and what happened before doesn't really matter?
Scoundreller 5y ago
> ID checks This is straightforward when you have a national ID scheme.
- cm2187 5y ago
  I believe the US has a national ID scheme, just not a mandatory one. You need to request an ID card (though the vast majority of people just use their driving license), but just like you need to proactively get your ID card issued and renewed in France. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_document#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_document#United_State...
  - tablespoon 5y ago
    > I believe the US has a national ID scheme, just not a mandatory one. You need to request an ID card (though the vast majority of people just use their driving license), but just like you need to proactively get your ID card issued and renewed in France. It has national ID standards for drivers licenses, but as far as I know it doesn't issue any kind of national-level ID document besides passports (and passport cards), and you can only get those as a citizen.
    - cm2187 5y ago
      Are non citizens allowed to vote in state and federal elections?
      - tablespoon 5y ago
        > Are non citizens allowed to vote in state and federal elections? No. I kinda lost sight of the context. Also, IIRC, passports are one of the harder and more expensive forms of ID to get.
  - ghaff 5y ago
    Well, the US has passports and passport cards, but they're not inexpensive--in the $100+ range with card a bit less--and pretty much no one gets them if they don't need a passport. (And as sibling comment notes, those are only available to citizens--though that's not really relevant for voting anyway.) Drivers licenses and equivalent ID are at the state level although there's now a fairly high level of standardization (if you get a REAL ID version--required for federal purposes like flying). So basically government-issued photo ID is fairly readily available but it's (often) not free and can get tricky in cases where, for example, you don't have a permanent address. And, unless you have an existing chain of ID documents, you need your birth certificate at some point.)
JAlexoid 5y ago
The systems are completely different and your comment is just plain ignorance. Elections in France are on a Sunday, when almost everyone is off work.(in US it's always Tuesday?) Photo IDs are low cost there and mandatory. Everyone has a photo ID. Polling stations are not a "million miles away", you will not see regular multi hour lines in France. And finally - you cannot win, unless you get at least 50% + 1 vote. In US and UK - a simple plurality of votes makes you a winner.
- Jiejeing 5y ago
  FWIW in france you can either use a passport, your national ID card, your social security card, or plenty of other official documents (all with photo, https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F1361 https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F1361). So there is no barrier at all for the voting ID.
- guerby 5y ago
  There's about one polling station for 1000 voters in France, hours are from 8am to 6 to 8pm depending on location and election. So 36-43 seconds per voter if everyone shows up, which never happens (highest is about 85%): https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstention_%C3%A9lectorale_en_France https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstention_%C3%A9lectorale_en_...
- ajmurmann 5y ago
  How many businesses are open in France on Sundays? Wikipedia tells me "large super markets" can open for up to six hours. Does that mean that in practice all small businesses and other stores, like huge book stores are closed? I know in Germany voting also happens on Sunday and everything but restaurants and gas stations used to be closed on Sundays.
  - guerby 5y ago
    In France gardening shops and restaurants are open on sundays Some small supermarket/stores are open sunday morning. Some small stores (family managed) are open all sunday (I have one 100 meters from my home which is open 8am to 8pm all days).
outside1234 5y ago
The problem with the US approach is that the restrictions are targeted at groups - versus this approach which is uniform. For example, you can't get an absentee ballot in Texas. Well, unless you are old and a likely Republican voter, then it's totally ok.
- ghaff 5y ago
  Or you say that you're going to be out of the county during the voting period.
yohannparis 5y ago
To get an ID in France: - Go online, request a birth-certificate, wait a week to receive it by mail. - Go to the city-hall, with a photo, birth-certificate, and proof of residence, then fill a form, pay nothing. - Wait ~6 weeks, pick-up at city-hall ID, valid for 15 years. To get an ID in USA: - Hope you still are in possession of the only copy of your birth-certificate. - If not, hope that your church/city-hall, can provide you a copy. - Go to the DMV, birth-certificate, two proof of residences. - Wait couple of weeks to receive by mail. Things are much simpler in France, cost nothing, and because it is mandatory to have an ID, it is never an issue to provide one.
- rayiner 5y ago
  > To get an ID in USA: - Hope you still are in possession of the only copy of your birth-certificate. - If not, hope that your church/city-hall, can provide you a copy. - Go to the DMV, birth-certificate, two proof of residences. - Wait couple of weeks to receive by mail. Do you live in the U.S. or do you just read about it online? I live in a historically Republican county that is suburban/rural. I needed a replacement copy of my son's birth certificate the other day. I went over to my county records office (which is 5 minutes away) and they gave me a copy in 30 minutes. Waiting six weeks to get an ID in France? In my state your drivers license is delivered in under 10 days, typically just 4-5.
  - JAlexoid 5y ago
    Driver's license in US vs passport in France - not same. Also are you completely not self aware? "went over to my county records office" and "hope that your church/city-hall, can provide you a copy" - are literally the same thing. You just happen to live nearby the place where your birth certificate was recorded. Let alone - low density areas, that are much more republican, also have easier access to government services.
    - rayiner 5y ago
      OP said “to get an ID in France” not “get a passport.” OP was wrong about US birth certificates. They’re not recorded by “churches” they’re recorded by each state. My county office issues certified copies of Maryland birth certificates. (Yes you need to be born in the state, but most Americans live in the state they were born in, just like most Europeans live in the EU member country they were born in.)
scythe 5y ago
>"strict limits" on proxy voting The US doesn't allow proxy voting in elections at all. Furthermore, it was banned to deliberately disenfranchise illiterate people in some cases: >In Alabama, the Perry County Civic League's members' assisting illiterate voters by marking a ballot on their behalf was deemed "proxy voting" and "voting more than once" and thus held to be illegal. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxy_voting#United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxy_voting#United_States Talk about a false equivalence.
pif 5y ago
I think that requesting an ID to vote is the right thing. Getting an ID being an issue is the real problem.

seanw444 5y ago

Sounds pretty based to me. Leave voting alone. Write your vote on paper, bring it in yourself. Sure there's room for improvement in the process, but sprinkling networked computers in to solve every problem is the wrong approach.

kingcharles 5y ago
Off-topic, but do you mean "biased" when you say "based"? I feel like I'm in some parallel universe because I swear for the last 6 months I've not seen a single person spell biased right. Was there a meeting where everyone agreed to make a confusing change to the spelling and no-one told me about it?
- slackfan 5y ago
  No, based =/= biased.
  - smnrchrds 5y ago
    > Based is a slang term that originally meant to be addicted to crack cocaine (or acting like you were), but was reclaimed by rapper Lil B for being yourself and not caring what others think of you—to carry yourself with swagger. > Based has been appropriated by the alt-right online as a general term of praise, as if “un-woke.” https://www.dictionary.com/e/slang/based/ https://www.dictionary.com/e/slang/based/ Well, TIL.
- eti 5y ago
  see: https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Based+God https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Based+God && https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=based https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=based
  - maxerickson 5y ago
    Also https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/based-god https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/based-god

mardifoufs 5y ago

>France doesn’t do mail-in voting, early voting or use voting machines en masse like the United States. I get not doing mail-in-voting but what's wrong with early voting? I remember there was a huge line in front of the french embassy here last elections because there's no exception to that rule for expats. For a city like Montreal with a lot of French immigrants it means a single vote office for thousands of people. Compare that to the US where you can email your vote in a lot of states if you live overseas... and it becomes clear that access to vote is just not a priority for France. >What is the DoD Fax Service? If you need to send your election materials to your election official by fax but do not have access to a fax machine you can email them to fax@fvap.gov and FVAP will fax your election materials for you. https://www.democratsabroad.org/de_how_to_fax_your_ballot_by_without_a_fax_machine https://www.democratsabroad.org/de_how_to_fax_your_ballot_by... https://www.fvap.gov/eo/overview/resources https://www.fvap.gov/eo/overview/resources

cm2187 5y ago
I think it clashes with all sort of election rules, like the candidates must have had the same air time during the campaign (can’t guarantee that every day of the campaign), also there is a cool down period 24h before the vote where the campaigns are suspended, you can’t publish polls or discuss the candidates programs in the media. I am not sure why you would blame it on nefarious motives.
historia_novae 5y ago
It's very understandable for prevent frauds. The last election in the US was disputed and disputable in the first place because of how easy it is to cheat. > Compare that to the US where you can email your vote in a lot of states if you live overseas... and it becomes clear that access to vote is just not a priority for France. That's not true. As a former expat, the only annoying thing is establishing a proxy since it can only be done during "tournées consulaires" dedicated for it, that are of course very rare. I feel the election is fairer without possible easy way to hack-in votes.
- specialist 5y ago
  What do you mean by fraud? By voters? Every investigation of postal ballots have shown it to be very rare. Most problems are simple mistakes. By administrators? Postal balloting is neither more or less prone to cheating than the other electronic voting and tabulation systems. Meaning terrible. Typically, the vulnerable parts are voter registration (eg caging, purges), signature verification, ballot scanning ahead of election day, and adjudication. -- I opposed my state and county switching to all postal balloting. My #1 concern was that it'd disenfranchise more people (eg USPS loses/misdelivers ~1% of all ballots, some ~40k voters have their signatures challenged every election), resulting in reduced turnout and long-term participation. On this I was proven wrong. Turnout increased. Another concern is that postal balloting enables ballot chasing. Which increases the cost of campaigning as well as leads to voter fatigue and alienation. This appears to be true. But as long as turnout remains higher, the tradeoff seems worthwhile.

trothamel 5y ago

How many elections occur at the same time in France? I've heard that in European elections, you tend to vote for one person at a time, where in the US, it's pretty routine to vote for three or more. (In presidential years, you vote for presidential electors, a representative, and 2/3 of the times a senator, and then beyond that there are state and local elections.) I'm wonder how much of the difference comes from counting one versus multiple elections at the same time.

lesquivemeau 5y ago
During presidential elections you only vote for the president, then you vote for part of the parliament during "les législatives", 2 months after. On the other end, some local elections take part at the same time (ex: regional and departmental)
dathinab 5y ago
In Germany for the major votes you have two votes, then there are often also additional votes bundles in, so 3 or 4 votes in one setting are not uncommon. There are no voting machines. And it, in general, works without problems. (Mail in voting is possible but not used that much.)
JAlexoid 5y ago
It's fast, easy and low cost - that's what matters. And it depends, often elections don't coincide and the election process is just a few weeks long.
klaustopher 5y ago
Not sure about France, but next door in Germany we try to put multiple elections on the same date, because organizing the polling stations is always the most expensive thing. So it's not uncommon to have some of city mayor, city council, regional, state and federal and European elections fall onto the same date. I think the "worst" I've seen as a volunteer was 4 elections on the same day. Counting process starts by splitting the ballots (if we have all of them in one urn), and then counting and tallying them one election at a time. The ballots are distinguished by different colored paper. One voting district is usually around ~1000 voters, out of those, before Covid ~10-20% did mail-in-voting, during Covid it was ~40-50%. Then with a normal voter turnup of around 60-70% depending on the elections that are held, we end up with a few hundred ballots to count per election, with a staff of normally 8 people... Polling stations close at 6pm, and the latest I have left the voting station after counting was 8:30pm.

scythe 5y ago

>People who can't go to the polls for various reasons can authorize someone else to vote for them. >To do so, a voter must fill out a form ahead of time and bring it to a police station. A person can be the proxy of no more than one voter living in France — and potentially one additional person living abroad. >Up to 7% of people voted by proxy in the last presidential election five years ago. It's not that France isn't accounting for the people who can't make it to the polls on Election Day. It's just that they're doing it differently.

cm2187 5y ago
In fact despite these constraints the turnout in France is traditionally much higher than in the UK and the US which have a much more relaxed system. Though turnout is trending downward quickly.

_hcuq 5y ago

In the USA, next step is widespread intimidation at the physical polling stations.

a-priori 5y ago

Canadian elections are also done on paper, mostly in person (though mail-in voting is allowed, and has became more popular during the pandemic), counted by hand. We don't use any machines on the federal level, though at the provincial level there's sometimes tabulator machines to speed up counting and even that's not much of a benefit. This is true at the municipal level too, which have more complicated ballots to vote for mayor, councillor and school board trustee. Still done on paper ballots, counted by hand. Despite it being a manual process, the results are always available within a few hours of closing time. This is democracy, not rocket science. It does not and should not require technology to operate elections.

clarionbell 5y ago

Bringing ID (government issued, with photo and basic life details) and being registered is also requirement in Czechia, along with hand counting the votes obviously. Honestly, when I first heard how US handles voting I couldn't believe how open to abuse it is. In a way, I'm surprised that election integrity hasn't been questioned sooner. Edit: To clarify, I don't believe the 2020 elections were affected by fraud, in fact they were proven not to be. Just that the process doesn't seem very trustworthy to me in general.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
a-priori 5y ago
Would it surprise you to hear that in Canada, we accept a very broad range of ID (a bank statement and a lease agreement for an apartment would do)? And even if you don't have any of that, you can still vote if another registered voter vouches for you? https://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=vot&dir=ids&document=index&lang=e https://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=vot&dir=ids&do... You can also register on election night. I did this a couple years ago when there was a provincial election shortly after we moved. And yet we don't have widespread electoral fraud.
- LeapingLennie 5y ago
  In Australia we don't even need to present ID. Just tell the official your name and address and they cross it off a list. It's hard to believe a system that simple could work but as far as I know there haven't ever been any issues.
- Markoff 5y ago
  Vouching for you was acceptable in Slovakia/Czechia in past, but it seems they removed it in recent years since I can't find any information about it, but I clearly remember if election commitee member could confirm your identity or 1-2 other people they could let you vote even without any ID card. Btw. there is really no registration in Czechia/Slovakia, you will get voting tickets automatically to your permanent residence address without any additional registration, registration is necessary only if you want vote via mail or you want voting pass to vote outside your permanent residence.

frequent 5y ago

noteworthy that outside from presidential elections, candidates need to purchase and provide these paper ballots (plus official flyers mailed to registered voters) on their own cost and only get reimboursed if they score more than 5%.

yohannparis 5y ago
Also candidates parties received money from the government based on members numbers.
- frequent 5y ago
  to be precise, public funding is based on the results of the upcoming legislative (national assembly) elections. France has 577 districts, each elect on representative in two rounds. Parties receive about 40k€/year for every elected representative and another ~1.40€/vote/year for every vote in these elections provided (!) you make more than 1% in at least 50 districts. These amounts get reduced considerably if you do not respect gender-parity across your candidates. More info on https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financement_des_partis_politiques_fran%C3%A7ais https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financement_des_partis_politiq...

Markoff 5y ago

Isn't this standard in most of the world? Well some countries add mail-in voting, but that's about it, almost no countries use machines like US.

rayiner 5y ago

On a single day!

gfodor 5y ago

Mass mail in voting is a disaster, and people in the US now largely support it because of politics, not because it improves the integrity of elections.

ghaff 5y ago
Voting processes are to a large degree about balancing tradeoffs. The point of mail in voting is to decrease the friction of voting, i.e. you don't need to go to a polling place on a specific day.
- gfodor 5y ago
  Yes, in exchange for removing the guarantees of the secret ballot and a secure chain of custody for ballots. Which, at scale, is a disaster - and basically eradicates trust in elections. The mass mail in voting thing was supposed to be due to a national health emergency, reasonable people were willing to temporarily reduce those guarantees in the name of public safety. How foolish of us! Now we can see the party in power has used it as a bait and switch to try to make these changes permanent. Why?
  - gmac 5y ago
    Other countries, such as the UK, have had postal voting for a long time. I've heard no evidence that there's systematic abuse. What destroys trust is not postal voting. It's a losing party actively spreading disinformation in an attempt to discredit an election result they don't like.
    - gfodor 5y ago
      The problem, as I stated, is not postal voting. It is mass postal voting. Typically mail in voting is opt-in. Relatively few ballots are printed, and the recipient is engaged to ensure the process completes safely. The blast radius of the vulnerabilities it creates are small, and the vulnerabilities themselves are much more narrow given the selective nature of it. This is a totally acceptable mechanism whereby a relative few individuals vote in the most secure possible method they can participate in, and it doesn’t compromise the entire system. Now, in California, all mailboxes are flooded with blank ballots for all elections. It is insanity. The entire election process here has its integrity hinged upon a signature on an envelope. Which, by the way, is quickly separated from the ballot for counting, ensuring it is fundamentally impossible to do an audit. You’d have to be a fool to take seriously the idea close, highly contested elections in California are assured to be accurate results. The primary goal of elections is to make the public feel confidence they have a fair representative government. In other words, if basic logic dictates that you shouldn’t trust the election system, you should expect large parts of the public will stop believing they live in a democracy and act as people always do in such situations.

jimbob45 5y ago

To be clear, the limiting factor in the US is not will: everyone knows and understands that paper ballots are the gold standard. The problem is that electronic machines are much much cheaper and it’s tough to explain to voters why you saw fit to short the school district’s budget in favor of the elections budget.

newbamboo 5y ago

It may actually make sense for a nation to try and protect public trust in the electoral process. We have gone in the opposite direction in the United States, and my gut tells me that mail in ballots to every mailbox (and in dumpsters and boxes left randomly by te side of the road) wasn’t a good thing for our nation, in the greater sweep of history.

joeman1000 5y ago

I’ve seen how paper ballots can be manipulated in Russia and Ukraine. There are many videos available showing ‘volunteers’ poorly obscuring surveillance cameras and stuffing the ballot boxes full of false votes. They also threw out many votes (from the candidate they were paid to sabotage).

alkonaut 5y ago

I also vote on paper. But file my taxes for free with a few taps in a mobile app provided by the tax authority. This seems like the correct priority…

aborsy 5y ago

A lot of things in France use the same system that’s been used for generations. No surprise.