10 ms·

1.5-Inch Hand-Carved Agate from 1500 B.C. Shows Sub-Millimeter Details (2017)

248 points by disqard 5y ago

crawfordcomeaux 5y ago
I'm not so sure the sub-millimeter details are so mysterious if a sub-millimeter mark in hard stone is easy to feel with the fingers. And if that's how they did it, this is still remarkable work.
- coderaptor 5y ago
  Do we have evidence it was carved? It’s possible to “shrink” a stamp by pressing onto wet clay, firing, and then repeating the process multiple times (clay will reduce after firing). I wonder if this could have been etched or pressed, potentially with a chemical process?
  - irrational 5y ago
    Apparently the stone is very hard and difficult to carve. Presumably this would mean it wasn't pressed in some manner.
  - cossatot 5y ago
    Agate is silica (quartz) and is harder than steel, or any common metal or alloy that pre-modern people would have had. A few common minerals are harder, such as feldspar and hornblende, and modern ceramic is (but not all fired clay). I think tools made or tipped with these must have been used, and/or perhaps finely ground minerals were used as an abrasive polish.
disqard 5y ago
If you're looking for a tl;dr, just spend ten seconds looking at this high-res image of the object in question: https://news.artnet.com/app/news-upload/2017/11/31SCI-WARRIOR1-superJumbo.jpg https://news.artnet.com/app/news-upload/2017/11/31SCI-WARRIO...
- aksss 5y ago
  Thanks, that's more stunning than the ink drawing made of it. Far more detail than what I could see in the drawing.
  - lostlogin 5y ago
    In particular, the dead guy and the arm holding the sword. It uses light reflections very effectively.
    - ch4s3 5y ago
      The impression is even cooler imho[1]. [1]http://www.griffinwarrior.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Hesperia-fig3-wm-400x284.png http://www.griffinwarrior.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Hes...
      - lostlogin 5y ago
        What is that? An impression would be inverted. If the impression was filled (used as a mould) it would match the original. Is the image reversed?
        SamBam 5y ago
        Unsure what you mean. It is inverted. It's been pressed into something. The frame is pressed inward, and the bas-relief figures come outward.
        lostlogin 5y ago
        I think I’m not seeing either the original or the copy correctly, both look to me to have figures that come outward, and the copy is also flipped left to right. Surely a straight copy made by pressing the original into something would have the dead body on the left, with their features going into the medium, not coming out? Edit: I think I’m seeing the original wrong, I just can’t see how the figures stick in, rather than out. Part of it might be because All the photos appear to have been altered to allow you to see the figures, as the true colour version is much harder to appreciate. See the true colour version here: https://aristomenismessinios.blogspot.com/2019/02/the-combat-agate-from-grave-of-griffin.html?m=1 https://aristomenismessinios.blogspot.com/2019/02/the-combat...
nomel 5y ago
Whenever I see something like this, I'm reminded that really smart people have always existed. We're not at some pinnacle of human intelligence (the opposite actually [1]), we're just in a different context. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Fragile_Intellect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Fragile_Intellect
- chrisco255 5y ago
  When I see this (a relic of the Minoan civilization), I'm reminded that civilization has undergone multiple collapses as a result of disease, war, corruption, and famine, and in the process we lose skills and technology along the way, and only re-learn them (or alternative technologies) after we enter a period of new abundance, sometimes many centuries or millenia later.
  - marcosdumay 5y ago
    There were way fewer large scale collapses in our history than people assume. Localized ones are plentiful, but knowledge almost always gets preserved by some distant people. Lost knowledge usually happens because it stops being useful or because it wasn't actually widespread.
  - JackFr 5y ago
    Although that is one way to get out of a local minimum. David Herlihy made the argument in The Black Death and the “Transformation of the West”, that much of feudal Europe prior to the plague was caught in a Malthusian deadlock, where labor was abundant and thus cheap enough that there was no return to investment in technology or capital. It was only when labor became scarce and expensive that investments in productivity were justified.
    - chrisco255 5y ago
      Several centuries before the Black Plague, the Justinian Plague accelerated the decline of the remnants of the Roman Empire and plunged Europe into the Dark Ages. In the process a lot of Roman technology and skill was lost, and the burgeoning Byzantine empire failed to reach Roman heights as a result of massive losses of human life. In addition the climate got colder as a result of volcanism and caused widespread famine. Maybe the Black Plague did shake up things in what we retrospectively look at as good outcomes, but it happened at the tail end of a long period of malaise.
beamatronic 5y ago
How many of us could replicate this, even with todays resources?
- damontal 5y ago
  How many of us could make a simple match to strike a fire?
- s5300 5y ago
  Rubbing things together. Seriously.
- foobarian 5y ago
  Good luck with our free time. But if this was our day job and we kept at it for decades, who knows what would turn out!
- brandmeyer 5y ago
  Don't underestimate the value of practice. I've watched welders build up a bead to a thickness tolerance better than 0.001" with nothing more sophisticated than a hand-held TIG torch and wire.
  - girvo 5y ago
    And very, very steady hands. I wish I had those skills, be it the amazingly consistent welders you're talking about, or the amazing carving skills of the original article. Crazy.
- hettygreen 5y ago
  When you say "us", do you mean computer programmers half-blinded by screens since high school? Not unless STL's are available on thingiverse.. Or did you mean "us" as in professional carvers who practiced their whole lives the skills passed down through generations? This thing wasn't carved by a rando from the peasant class.
oboes 5y ago
The website of the team excavating the archeological site where this object was found contain more information and fascinating pictures: http://www.griffinwarrior.org/ http://www.griffinwarrior.org/
- scrapcode 5y ago
  I love the site and how they display their work, however their watermarks completely ruin the photos IMO.
ffhhj 5y ago
> It is indeed a mystery how they did it,” said Stocker. How about using a Pantograph? > The ancient Greek engineer Hero of Alexandria described pantographs in his work Mechanics. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantograph https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantograph
- happytoexplain 5y ago
  I have no idea if they could have used a pantograph, but the Hero of Alexandria apparently lived 1500 years after this artist.
  - ffhhj 5y ago
    A simple device that could have been rediscovered over and over by technologists.
- ch4s3 5y ago
  Probably not, it has depth and is carved into agate. If you've never tried to carve stone, it is quite difficult.
  - ffhhj 5y ago
    A 3D pantograph could be constructed with 2 of these mechanisms. Such device would make a task like this a little easier. Simpler answer than optics or photolithography.
    - ch4s3 5y ago
      Maybe? It seems like building something like that to hold a carving tool and applying the necessary pressure to the other apparatus would be pretty tricky. The idea that it was done by someone with exceptional eyesight seems more plausible to me. It could have even been done in a workshop by multiple people. Maybe they could have used a crude convex brass mirror to aid the process.
      - 5y ago
kromem 5y ago
This is actually much more interesting than just the level of detail. The motif on it is the same as on a seal found in the Mycenaean grave circle with "Agamemnon's Mask" (dated 16th century BCE, centuries too early to be Homer's Agamemnon): https://www.alamy.com/battling-warriors-on-a-gold-seal-from-the-lower-grave-circle-mycenae-16th-century-bc-image268834686.html https://www.alamy.com/battling-warriors-on-a-gold-seal-from-... But the Minoans almost never produced goods for themselves depicting warfare until after the Mycenaean take over ~1450 BCE, after these seals were made. While Minoan princes were often depicted nearly nude and with long hair and sometimes leaping, the Griffin warrior grave was for an actual warrior and among the items he was buried with was a comb for hair. Just who were the warriors depicted across centuries and different locations in these Mycenaean seals, and what was the nature of their battle? You can see in the Pylos combat agate that the long haired warrior is fighting above the body of another fallen comrade. While the motif predates any possible historic Trojan War by centuries, I suspect that the tradition behind this scene is what eventually inspired Homer's story of Achilles fighting Hector after the death of Patroclus, reworked into the narrative of Troy with the original story lost to the ages in lieu of these seals left behind. Should the Griffin warrior grave in the palace of Nestor turn out to be closer in time to the Mycenaean grave circle (dating off pottery isn't always the most reliable), I'd like to think that the Griffin warrior IS the warrior from the seal, with his greatest accomplishment immortalized in one of the finest works of art in that time, and that we have indeed found the grave of Achilles (or the inspiration thereof), just outside the timeline of various events compressed into a single fiction by 'Homer' and the oral tradition which survived the Greek Dark Ages.
- cgio 5y ago
  Based on dress my first impression would be that the fallen is not a comrade but a defeated enemy.
  - elefanten 5y ago
    Or from the article: “The landmark find shows a warrior battling against two adversaries, killing one enemy, the other already dead at his feet.”
jrapdx3 5y ago
As said in other comments the artifact is indeed gorgeous, the intricacy of carving stunning. I also agree with the idea that it shows our predecessors were as intelligent as we are today. Certainly no less "artistic" or creative. Other objects from prior epochs reflect the same levels of intelligence. The astonishing "Venus of Dolní Věstonice" (National Museum in Prague, Czech Republic) [0] is a ceramic piece made ~25-29K years ago. I was privileged to see it about 25 years ago, its patina resembles raku-like ceramics. I've asked myself, how did anyone know how to do this 25K years ago? How did the creator of the piece manage to get the elevated temperature (~750C) needed to make it work? It was the product of intelligence to be sure. Of course there are many other examples of ancient human ingenuity to point to. It's evident our ancestors figured out solutions to problems in surprisingly effective ways. We're smart too, but probably no smarter than those who came before. [0] https://www.historyofinformation.com/detail.php?entryid=2493 https://www.historyofinformation.com/detail.php?entryid=2493
- garbagetime 5y ago
  1500 BC is very recent in evolutionary and even cultural terms
umvi 5y ago
> “Looking at the image for the first time was a very moving experience, and it still is,” Stocker noted. “It’s brought some people to tears.” I get the meaning here, but I still find it slightly humorous that people are being moved to tears by an image depicting a human murdering another human (and a corpse on the ground)
- ggm 5y ago
  When I got to see the "venus of willendorf" I had a very atavistic reaction. Really strong goose bumps. An amazing feeling of connectedness across deep time.
canadaduane 5y ago
What is the other (non-sword) object that he holds? http://www.griffinwarrior.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Hesperia-fig13-wm.png http://www.griffinwarrior.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Hes...
- notpachet 5y ago
  It is the plume from the helmet of the warrior he is fighting.
berkut 5y ago
Article from 2017...
Razengan 5y ago
That “Griffin Warrior” could make a nice subject for a movie or game :)
- boomboomsubban 5y ago
  Basically all we know about him is that he was rich and he died. So the story would be complete fiction with some "based on a real person" bullshit.
hello_popppet 5y ago
sjaak 5y ago
After reading this I can't help but think of a talk "Preventing the Collapse of Civilization" given by Jonathan Blow (the game dev) about progress and how it's not always increasing like we tend to think. Super interesting if you have the time for it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSRHeXYDLko https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSRHeXYDLko
flembat 5y ago
It is rare to find a tomb with such wealth that has not been raided. Says team of tomb raiders.
hyperpallium2 5y ago
Regarding the fine detail, firstly I think people generally had better eyesight back then. Secondly, jellyfish. One type, always washed up on my local beach, is a 3pi/2 arc - about the size and shape of a 3/4 donut. And perfectly transparent. Its optical qualities are something any curious human will investigate. It's a small step to use it to see and work on fine detail. And much smaller steps to experiment with which curvature gives the best magnification. Could also be used as a telescope. Jellypunk.
- Cipater 5y ago
  You probably meant "magnifying glass". I looked it up because I was skeptical and found this: https://www.flickr.com/photos/149328524@N08/49759508281/in/photostream/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/149328524@N08/49759508281/in/p...
  - hyperpallium2 5y ago
    Here's a photo http://imgur.com/7Pulqtau http://imgur.com/7Pulqtau Apparently, not jellyfish, but sea snail egg sacs https://www.google.com/search?q=sea+snail+egg&source=lnms&tbm=isch https://www.google.com/search?q=sea+snail+egg&source=lnms&tb...
DictumMortuum 5y ago
Given that my father was born and raised in Crete, I've visited the island numerous times. This place is deep, I always have a very weird feeling when I'm there, it's like starring in those movies, where everyone is happy and joyful, however you know that something mysterious is lurking below all of this. There are places that still are called by their Minoan names. If you ever get there, don't miss the archaeological museum in Heraklion. Here is a small sample: https://ibb.co/P5RWZtZ https://ibb.co/P5RWZtZ https://ibb.co/khqvm8F https://ibb.co/khqvm8F
- twic 5y ago
  I didn't go to that museum, but i went to the one in Chania. The thing i remember most clearly is the little pull-along toy, substantially the same as one you might buy in a bougie toyshop today, that's getting on for three thousand years old: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Clay_oxen_wheel,_a_toy,_Crete,_800-700_BC,_AM_Chania,_076156.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Clay_oxen_wheel,_a_t...
  - throwaway73838 5y ago
    Is that one of those cultures that had invented the wheel for a child’s toy, but not for any more practical purpose?
    - jrootabega 5y ago
      Sorry if I'm just spreading factoids and platitudes, but isn't this the point at which some people say "it's not the wheel that was the hard part; it was the axle and bearings."? So a wheel for a child's toy would almost not even be a wheel.
    - shkkmo 5y ago
      I think you are confused with the idea "the romans invented the steam engine but only used it as a toy" which semi-misleadingly refers to the Aeolipile.
    - prennert 5y ago
singularity2001 5y ago
not to dismiss the artisanship but a millimeter is really not that small.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- taneliv 5y ago
  Them calling it merely "sub-millimeter" seems a bit like selling it short. The image in the article is about 1500 pixels wide (the stone part of it), and is 36mm according to Wikipedia. [1] I measured some fine details to be about three pixels in size. That would be 72 µm, which perhaps gives a different idea than a hand-wavy "sub-millimeter". For comparison, Intel's 8008 has a node size of 10 µm. (I hope I got the measurements and units correctly. The numbers seem slightly too impressive, corrections welcome.) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griffin_Warrior_Tomb https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griffin_Warrior_Tomb
wazoox 5y ago
It's from 2017, and has been discussed previously on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15649062 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15649062 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16254122 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16254122
- yesenadam 5y ago
  > has been discussed There seem to be 0 comments on either of those pages.
femto 5y ago
Is this level of detail in a hand made object really surprising? The Avogadro Project involved making silicon balls with a mass of 1kg and surface irregularities of the order of a few nanometres. Achim Leistner, a master lens maker, finished the spheres by hand as he was able to feel surface imperfections of the order of a few nanometres. A similarly skilled person could have lived in 1500 BC. [1] https://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/making-the-worlds-perfect-kilo/11009934 https://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/making-the-worlds-perfect-ki...
- actually_a_dog 5y ago
  Yes, but you'd need archeological evidence to say that such a person existed, and the oldest known possibly manufactured lens dates from the 7th century BC [0]. --- [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lens#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lens#History
hownottowrite 5y ago
Recommendation: Read “1177 B.C.: The Year Civilization Collapsed” by Eric H. Cline https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691208015/1177-bc https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691208015/11...
jansan 5y ago
"Sub-Millimeter" may sound impressive to a novice, but with very simple tools like a hand file you can work on metal with a precision of a thousandth of a millimeter. So yes, this is impressive craftmanship but nothing that would rewite history of technology.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
ionwake 5y ago
In an odd coincidence - I'm just sailing away from Crete, I've always been interested in the Minion civilisation which dates at its earliest to 3500 years ago. Things of note. Please respect the following text, which is civil and describes nude sculpture, bearing in mind Minoan civilisation was renowned for priestesses which wore bodices that exposed their breasts. A few days ago I saw a Minoan figure of a female clay bust, which I have not found online, in the Heraklion Archaelogical museum, and it is the finest sculpture of breasts I have ever seen that predates modernity. I will try and upload an image if anyone is interested. Just perfectly sculpted and realistic. Within the theme, I also discovered a 3500 year old sculpture of a woman which has over 100 breasts all over it. Oddly the sculpture was listed as having "nubs" quite why the museum did I have no idea why. While odd, what I found compelling , is that a figure of a multiple breasted woman is renowned in the city of Ephesus - called the Diana of Ephesus - (feel free to google). I have not found any link in museum of in texts, but it must be related, as Ephesus was also settled by Minoans. Just an odd similarity which I do genuinely is related. I am not a historian so please chime in if there is a link. But importantly - I just wanted to share my observation, that usual sculptures one associates with minoan civilisation such as the priestess holding the snakes - seems like an amateur attempt at sculpture compared to the more secretive, hidden pieces that I happened to come across. This helps to contextualise the quality of detail in the agate described in the article. No conspiracy life is just surprising like that. Just my take I hope it was of interest. PS - If anyone is interested in video just browse the Crete tag on tiktok as I know there is video there.
ddingus 5y ago
I am not sure magnification would be required to produce that piece. Some people have visual acuity in the range needed to produce that work. And it depends on age. I do wonder what tool they used. Perhaps a harder stone? However it was done, it's a great, beautiful piece! What a find!

248 points by disqard 5y ago

I'm not so sure the sub-millimeter details are so mysterious if a sub-millimeter mark in hard stone is easy to feel with the fingers. And if that's how they did it, this is still remarkable work.

coderaptor 5y ago
Do we have evidence it was carved? It’s possible to “shrink” a stamp by pressing onto wet clay, firing, and then repeating the process multiple times (clay will reduce after firing). I wonder if this could have been etched or pressed, potentially with a chemical process?
- irrational 5y ago
  Apparently the stone is very hard and difficult to carve. Presumably this would mean it wasn't pressed in some manner.
- cossatot 5y ago
  Agate is silica (quartz) and is harder than steel, or any common metal or alloy that pre-modern people would have had. A few common minerals are harder, such as feldspar and hornblende, and modern ceramic is (but not all fired clay). I think tools made or tipped with these must have been used, and/or perhaps finely ground minerals were used as an abrasive polish.

disqard 5y ago

If you're looking for a tl;dr, just spend ten seconds looking at this high-res image of the object in question: https://news.artnet.com/app/news-upload/2017/11/31SCI-WARRIOR1-superJumbo.jpg https://news.artnet.com/app/news-upload/2017/11/31SCI-WARRIO...

aksss 5y ago
Thanks, that's more stunning than the ink drawing made of it. Far more detail than what I could see in the drawing.
- lostlogin 5y ago
  In particular, the dead guy and the arm holding the sword. It uses light reflections very effectively.
  - ch4s3 5y ago
    The impression is even cooler imho[1]. [1]http://www.griffinwarrior.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Hesperia-fig3-wm-400x284.png http://www.griffinwarrior.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Hes...
    - lostlogin 5y ago
      What is that? An impression would be inverted. If the impression was filled (used as a mould) it would match the original. Is the image reversed?
      - SamBam 5y ago
        Unsure what you mean. It is inverted. It's been pressed into something. The frame is pressed inward, and the bas-relief figures come outward.
        lostlogin 5y ago
        I think I’m not seeing either the original or the copy correctly, both look to me to have figures that come outward, and the copy is also flipped left to right. Surely a straight copy made by pressing the original into something would have the dead body on the left, with their features going into the medium, not coming out? Edit: I think I’m seeing the original wrong, I just can’t see how the figures stick in, rather than out. Part of it might be because All the photos appear to have been altered to allow you to see the figures, as the true colour version is much harder to appreciate. See the true colour version here: https://aristomenismessinios.blogspot.com/2019/02/the-combat-agate-from-grave-of-griffin.html?m=1 https://aristomenismessinios.blogspot.com/2019/02/the-combat...

nomel 5y ago

Whenever I see something like this, I'm reminded that really smart people have always existed. We're not at some pinnacle of human intelligence (the opposite actually [1]), we're just in a different context. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Fragile_Intellect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Fragile_Intellect

chrisco255 5y ago
When I see this (a relic of the Minoan civilization), I'm reminded that civilization has undergone multiple collapses as a result of disease, war, corruption, and famine, and in the process we lose skills and technology along the way, and only re-learn them (or alternative technologies) after we enter a period of new abundance, sometimes many centuries or millenia later.
- marcosdumay 5y ago
  There were way fewer large scale collapses in our history than people assume. Localized ones are plentiful, but knowledge almost always gets preserved by some distant people. Lost knowledge usually happens because it stops being useful or because it wasn't actually widespread.
- JackFr 5y ago
  Although that is one way to get out of a local minimum. David Herlihy made the argument in The Black Death and the “Transformation of the West”, that much of feudal Europe prior to the plague was caught in a Malthusian deadlock, where labor was abundant and thus cheap enough that there was no return to investment in technology or capital. It was only when labor became scarce and expensive that investments in productivity were justified.
  - chrisco255 5y ago
    Several centuries before the Black Plague, the Justinian Plague accelerated the decline of the remnants of the Roman Empire and plunged Europe into the Dark Ages. In the process a lot of Roman technology and skill was lost, and the burgeoning Byzantine empire failed to reach Roman heights as a result of massive losses of human life. In addition the climate got colder as a result of volcanism and caused widespread famine. Maybe the Black Plague did shake up things in what we retrospectively look at as good outcomes, but it happened at the tail end of a long period of malaise.

beamatronic 5y ago

How many of us could replicate this, even with todays resources?

damontal 5y ago
How many of us could make a simple match to strike a fire?
s5300 5y ago
Rubbing things together. Seriously.
foobarian 5y ago
Good luck with our free time. But if this was our day job and we kept at it for decades, who knows what would turn out!
brandmeyer 5y ago
Don't underestimate the value of practice. I've watched welders build up a bead to a thickness tolerance better than 0.001" with nothing more sophisticated than a hand-held TIG torch and wire.
- girvo 5y ago
  And very, very steady hands. I wish I had those skills, be it the amazingly consistent welders you're talking about, or the amazing carving skills of the original article. Crazy.
hettygreen 5y ago
When you say "us", do you mean computer programmers half-blinded by screens since high school? Not unless STL's are available on thingiverse.. Or did you mean "us" as in professional carvers who practiced their whole lives the skills passed down through generations? This thing wasn't carved by a rando from the peasant class.

oboes 5y ago

The website of the team excavating the archeological site where this object was found contain more information and fascinating pictures: http://www.griffinwarrior.org/ http://www.griffinwarrior.org/

scrapcode 5y ago
I love the site and how they display their work, however their watermarks completely ruin the photos IMO.

ffhhj 5y ago

> It is indeed a mystery how they did it,” said Stocker. How about using a Pantograph? > The ancient Greek engineer Hero of Alexandria described pantographs in his work Mechanics. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantograph https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantograph

happytoexplain 5y ago
I have no idea if they could have used a pantograph, but the Hero of Alexandria apparently lived 1500 years after this artist.
- ffhhj 5y ago
  A simple device that could have been rediscovered over and over by technologists.
ch4s3 5y ago
Probably not, it has depth and is carved into agate. If you've never tried to carve stone, it is quite difficult.
- ffhhj 5y ago
  A 3D pantograph could be constructed with 2 of these mechanisms. Such device would make a task like this a little easier. Simpler answer than optics or photolithography.
  - ch4s3 5y ago
    Maybe? It seems like building something like that to hold a carving tool and applying the necessary pressure to the other apparatus would be pretty tricky. The idea that it was done by someone with exceptional eyesight seems more plausible to me. It could have even been done in a workshop by multiple people. Maybe they could have used a crude convex brass mirror to aid the process.
    - 5y ago

kromem 5y ago

This is actually much more interesting than just the level of detail. The motif on it is the same as on a seal found in the Mycenaean grave circle with "Agamemnon's Mask" (dated 16th century BCE, centuries too early to be Homer's Agamemnon): https://www.alamy.com/battling-warriors-on-a-gold-seal-from-the-lower-grave-circle-mycenae-16th-century-bc-image268834686.html https://www.alamy.com/battling-warriors-on-a-gold-seal-from-... But the Minoans almost never produced goods for themselves depicting warfare until after the Mycenaean take over ~1450 BCE, after these seals were made. While Minoan princes were often depicted nearly nude and with long hair and sometimes leaping, the Griffin warrior grave was for an actual warrior and among the items he was buried with was a comb for hair. Just who were the warriors depicted across centuries and different locations in these Mycenaean seals, and what was the nature of their battle? You can see in the Pylos combat agate that the long haired warrior is fighting above the body of another fallen comrade. While the motif predates any possible historic Trojan War by centuries, I suspect that the tradition behind this scene is what eventually inspired Homer's story of Achilles fighting Hector after the death of Patroclus, reworked into the narrative of Troy with the original story lost to the ages in lieu of these seals left behind. Should the Griffin warrior grave in the palace of Nestor turn out to be closer in time to the Mycenaean grave circle (dating off pottery isn't always the most reliable), I'd like to think that the Griffin warrior IS the warrior from the seal, with his greatest accomplishment immortalized in one of the finest works of art in that time, and that we have indeed found the grave of Achilles (or the inspiration thereof), just outside the timeline of various events compressed into a single fiction by 'Homer' and the oral tradition which survived the Greek Dark Ages.

cgio 5y ago
Based on dress my first impression would be that the fallen is not a comrade but a defeated enemy.
- elefanten 5y ago
  Or from the article: “The landmark find shows a warrior battling against two adversaries, killing one enemy, the other already dead at his feet.”

jrapdx3 5y ago

As said in other comments the artifact is indeed gorgeous, the intricacy of carving stunning. I also agree with the idea that it shows our predecessors were as intelligent as we are today. Certainly no less "artistic" or creative. Other objects from prior epochs reflect the same levels of intelligence. The astonishing "Venus of Dolní Věstonice" (National Museum in Prague, Czech Republic) [0] is a ceramic piece made ~25-29K years ago. I was privileged to see it about 25 years ago, its patina resembles raku-like ceramics. I've asked myself, how did anyone know how to do this 25K years ago? How did the creator of the piece manage to get the elevated temperature (~750C) needed to make it work? It was the product of intelligence to be sure. Of course there are many other examples of ancient human ingenuity to point to. It's evident our ancestors figured out solutions to problems in surprisingly effective ways. We're smart too, but probably no smarter than those who came before. [0] https://www.historyofinformation.com/detail.php?entryid=2493 https://www.historyofinformation.com/detail.php?entryid=2493

garbagetime 5y ago
1500 BC is very recent in evolutionary and even cultural terms

umvi 5y ago

> “Looking at the image for the first time was a very moving experience, and it still is,” Stocker noted. “It’s brought some people to tears.” I get the meaning here, but I still find it slightly humorous that people are being moved to tears by an image depicting a human murdering another human (and a corpse on the ground)

ggm 5y ago
When I got to see the "venus of willendorf" I had a very atavistic reaction. Really strong goose bumps. An amazing feeling of connectedness across deep time.

canadaduane 5y ago

What is the other (non-sword) object that he holds? http://www.griffinwarrior.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Hesperia-fig13-wm.png http://www.griffinwarrior.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Hes...

notpachet 5y ago
It is the plume from the helmet of the warrior he is fighting.

berkut 5y ago

Article from 2017...

Razengan 5y ago

That “Griffin Warrior” could make a nice subject for a movie or game :)

boomboomsubban 5y ago
Basically all we know about him is that he was rich and he died. So the story would be complete fiction with some "based on a real person" bullshit.

hello_popppet 5y ago

sjaak 5y ago

After reading this I can't help but think of a talk "Preventing the Collapse of Civilization" given by Jonathan Blow (the game dev) about progress and how it's not always increasing like we tend to think. Super interesting if you have the time for it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSRHeXYDLko https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSRHeXYDLko

flembat 5y ago

It is rare to find a tomb with such wealth that has not been raided. Says team of tomb raiders.

hyperpallium2 5y ago

Regarding the fine detail, firstly I think people generally had better eyesight back then. Secondly, jellyfish. One type, always washed up on my local beach, is a 3pi/2 arc - about the size and shape of a 3/4 donut. And perfectly transparent. Its optical qualities are something any curious human will investigate. It's a small step to use it to see and work on fine detail. And much smaller steps to experiment with which curvature gives the best magnification. Could also be used as a telescope. Jellypunk.

Cipater 5y ago
You probably meant "magnifying glass". I looked it up because I was skeptical and found this: https://www.flickr.com/photos/149328524@N08/49759508281/in/photostream/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/149328524@N08/49759508281/in/p...
- hyperpallium2 5y ago
  Here's a photo http://imgur.com/7Pulqtau http://imgur.com/7Pulqtau Apparently, not jellyfish, but sea snail egg sacs https://www.google.com/search?q=sea+snail+egg&source=lnms&tbm=isch https://www.google.com/search?q=sea+snail+egg&source=lnms&tb...

DictumMortuum 5y ago

Given that my father was born and raised in Crete, I've visited the island numerous times. This place is deep, I always have a very weird feeling when I'm there, it's like starring in those movies, where everyone is happy and joyful, however you know that something mysterious is lurking below all of this. There are places that still are called by their Minoan names. If you ever get there, don't miss the archaeological museum in Heraklion. Here is a small sample: https://ibb.co/P5RWZtZ https://ibb.co/P5RWZtZ https://ibb.co/khqvm8F https://ibb.co/khqvm8F

twic 5y ago
I didn't go to that museum, but i went to the one in Chania. The thing i remember most clearly is the little pull-along toy, substantially the same as one you might buy in a bougie toyshop today, that's getting on for three thousand years old: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Clay_oxen_wheel,_a_toy,_Crete,_800-700_BC,_AM_Chania,_076156.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Clay_oxen_wheel,_a_t...
- throwaway73838 5y ago
  Is that one of those cultures that had invented the wheel for a child’s toy, but not for any more practical purpose?
  - jrootabega 5y ago
    Sorry if I'm just spreading factoids and platitudes, but isn't this the point at which some people say "it's not the wheel that was the hard part; it was the axle and bearings."? So a wheel for a child's toy would almost not even be a wheel.
  - shkkmo 5y ago
    I think you are confused with the idea "the romans invented the steam engine but only used it as a toy" which semi-misleadingly refers to the Aeolipile.
  - prennert 5y ago

singularity2001 5y ago

not to dismiss the artisanship but a millimeter is really not that small.

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taneliv 5y ago
Them calling it merely "sub-millimeter" seems a bit like selling it short. The image in the article is about 1500 pixels wide (the stone part of it), and is 36mm according to Wikipedia. [1] I measured some fine details to be about three pixels in size. That would be 72 µm, which perhaps gives a different idea than a hand-wavy "sub-millimeter". For comparison, Intel's 8008 has a node size of 10 µm. (I hope I got the measurements and units correctly. The numbers seem slightly too impressive, corrections welcome.) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griffin_Warrior_Tomb https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griffin_Warrior_Tomb

wazoox 5y ago

It's from 2017, and has been discussed previously on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15649062 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15649062 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16254122 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16254122

yesenadam 5y ago
> has been discussed There seem to be 0 comments on either of those pages.

femto 5y ago

Is this level of detail in a hand made object really surprising? The Avogadro Project involved making silicon balls with a mass of 1kg and surface irregularities of the order of a few nanometres. Achim Leistner, a master lens maker, finished the spheres by hand as he was able to feel surface imperfections of the order of a few nanometres. A similarly skilled person could have lived in 1500 BC. [1] https://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/making-the-worlds-perfect-kilo/11009934 https://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/making-the-worlds-perfect-ki...

actually_a_dog 5y ago
Yes, but you'd need archeological evidence to say that such a person existed, and the oldest known possibly manufactured lens dates from the 7th century BC [0]. --- [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lens#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lens#History

hownottowrite 5y ago

Recommendation: Read “1177 B.C.: The Year Civilization Collapsed” by Eric H. Cline https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691208015/1177-bc https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691208015/11...

jansan 5y ago

"Sub-Millimeter" may sound impressive to a novice, but with very simple tools like a hand file you can work on metal with a precision of a thousandth of a millimeter. So yes, this is impressive craftmanship but nothing that would rewite history of technology.

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ionwake 5y ago

In an odd coincidence - I'm just sailing away from Crete, I've always been interested in the Minion civilisation which dates at its earliest to 3500 years ago. Things of note. Please respect the following text, which is civil and describes nude sculpture, bearing in mind Minoan civilisation was renowned for priestesses which wore bodices that exposed their breasts. A few days ago I saw a Minoan figure of a female clay bust, which I have not found online, in the Heraklion Archaelogical museum, and it is the finest sculpture of breasts I have ever seen that predates modernity. I will try and upload an image if anyone is interested. Just perfectly sculpted and realistic. Within the theme, I also discovered a 3500 year old sculpture of a woman which has over 100 breasts all over it. Oddly the sculpture was listed as having "nubs" quite why the museum did I have no idea why. While odd, what I found compelling , is that a figure of a multiple breasted woman is renowned in the city of Ephesus - called the Diana of Ephesus - (feel free to google). I have not found any link in museum of in texts, but it must be related, as Ephesus was also settled by Minoans. Just an odd similarity which I do genuinely is related. I am not a historian so please chime in if there is a link. But importantly - I just wanted to share my observation, that usual sculptures one associates with minoan civilisation such as the priestess holding the snakes - seems like an amateur attempt at sculpture compared to the more secretive, hidden pieces that I happened to come across. This helps to contextualise the quality of detail in the agate described in the article. No conspiracy life is just surprising like that. Just my take I hope it was of interest. PS - If anyone is interested in video just browse the Crete tag on tiktok as I know there is video there.

ddingus 5y ago

I am not sure magnification would be required to produce that piece. Some people have visual acuity in the range needed to produce that work. And it depends on age. I do wonder what tool they used. Perhaps a harder stone? However it was done, it's a great, beautiful piece! What a find!