19 ms·

What doctors wish patients knew about long Covid

151 points by amichail 5y ago

xupybd 5y ago
They say that Vaccines can prevent infection? I thought with Omicron that was no longer true?
- doktorhladnjak 5y ago
  If you're boosted, your chances of infection are reduced by around half. Double vaccinated is only a reduction of about 20% which is not high but also not nothing.
- ksenzee 5y ago
  Omicron does a better job of getting around vaccine-induced immunity than the previous variants did, but vaccinated people still have a lot of protection against infection compared to unvaccinated people.
  - smackeyacky 5y ago
    Pure anecdote in our household. High school aged daughter who was not eligible for 3rd dose of vaccine got covid twice in 6 weeks, unknown variant, mild symptoms. The rest of us in the household had the 3rd dose. None of us got covid despite not really following the guidelines for isolation. Seems like the 3rd dose vaccine was pretty effective for us.
- Ankaios 5y ago
  At least anecdotally, the mRNA vaccines do appear to provide some protection against infection. I know three people who are mRNA-vaccinated who were recently extensively exposed to omicron. (They spent multiple hours in a single room or car with someone with symptoms who was later confirmed infected.) The exposed individuals are PCR tested at least twice a week and almost certainly never previously had covid. One of the three later tested positive, but the other two never tested positive. Maybe by sheer luck two out of three could have remained uninfected by omicron without being vaccinated, but I'd be pretty surprised.
  - dataflow 5y ago
    > I know multiple people who are PCR tested at least twice a week, who have never had covid, who had extensive exposure to omicron (multiple hours in a single room or car) who never tested positive afterward. Do PCR tests indicate if you've ever been infected? I thought they only indicate if you're currently infected. In fact I'm curious if there is any test that can tell whether you've been infected by any variant of SARS-CoV-2 more than a few months ago; is there?
    - Ankaios 5y ago
      Your understanding is correct. PCR tests can only tell if you are currently infected. (Or at least have been so recently infected that enough remnant mRNA is still lingering in your body to be detectable.) Antibody tests can determine whether someone was infected previously, and I have heard that there are some that look for antibodies that are associated with infection but not vaccination. I don't know anything more about them than that, but maybe that could provide a thread to help start searching if you are interested in finding out more about them.
      - dataflow 5y ago
        Yeah I've looked that up before, and from what I recall reading, the antibody tests only work for "recent" infections in the last few months, not something that may have happened (say) a year or more ago. I don't remember reading that any test works for non-recent infections.
        Ankaios 5y ago
        Yeah, there's a limited window over which antibody testing is useful. I hadn't heard that it was only a few months, but that wouldn't be shocking, especially if you want a low rate of false negatives. Hopefully someone reading this knows more than me about approaches to testing that might work over longer time scales and not be confused by vaccination.
        5y ago
- hackerfromthefu 5y ago
  You are correct, Omicron can infect people regardless of how many shots of current vaccines we have. Still vaccination reduces, in aggregate, the severity and duration of Omicron illnesses. So the statement that vaccines prevent infection, can be interpreted both ways. It's also true that vaccines can also cause illnesses, and again it's nuanced.
tomrod 5y ago
This is going to be with us a long time!
amichail 5y ago
The possibility of getting brain fog from long Covid terrifies me so much that I will probably wear a mask indoors for the rest of my life.
- sbinthree 5y ago
  It is likely going to be found that long covid can be reversed with acute doses of Vitamin B3. Here's a few links, including a Nature article about it: * https://www.nature.com/articles/s41418-020-0530-3 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41418-020-0530-3 * https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7322475/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7322475/ * Study: https://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04407390 https://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04407390 * https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1471490622000254 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S147149062...
  - bagels 5y ago
    First paper was published March 2020, and only discusses B3 in the context of lung damage. Last paper doesn't seem to address cognitive function either.
  - cjbgkagh 5y ago
    Long Covid is basically CFS/ME with some extra complications. I wish CFS/ME could be treated so easily, it's not like people are not motivated to try.
- jimmygrapes 5y ago
- bigDinosaur 5y ago
  Have you realised that recovery is often very likely? I had brain fog for three months, and it spontaneously vanished after that. I don't know why people act like all 'long covid' is a death sentence. It's just like the fatigue that can come after certain other infections (e.g. EPV) where the vast majority will recover fine, but it might take quite a while (6 months to a year). Very few end up with actual CFS.
dataflow 5y ago
> And with the high transmissibility of the Omicron variant—which often results in milder disease outcomes—many patients may be concerned about developing long COVID. I have yet to read about anyone concluding that Omicron causes long COVID in vaccinated folks. If they have (or anyone else has) evidence indicating this is likely, I would love to hear it. Even the article doesn't claim this is the case.
- throwaway984393 5y ago
  There hasn't been enough time for anyone to be conclusive, Omicron has only been out for 4 months. Most health professionals expect more long COVID from it. The destruction of cells throughout the body is still happening and patient outcomes are still wildly different because individual health is wildly different. Reinfection also results in worse cases.
- jamie1np 5y ago
  Dr. Daniel Griffin on This Week In Virology works with long covid patients and is starting to see the first Omicron induced LC patients coming in. The variant has only been around for a few months, so by definition we won't have as many LC patients from it yet. Research takes time, and we're just starting to see the effects of this strain. We have no reason to be confident that Omicron won't induce LC.
  - svnt 5y ago
    And we have no reason to be confident it will, either.
grover35 5y ago
The fact that masks aren't mandatory in public in the US is honestly unbelievable to me. Somehow the media has managed to convince the public that Covid is not as big a deal as it was in the beginning, but the research shows the exact opposite. I think we're going to have a day of reckoning when a wave of kids become old enough to work and are completely unproductive due to long haul COVID.
- nradov 5y ago
  You've got to be kidding. The virus is here to stay. I am absolutely unwilling to spend the rest of my life wearing a mask, regardless of the consequences. Most Americans feel the same way. There's more to life than avoiding a minor respiratory virus.
- dataflow 5y ago
  > but the research shows the exact opposite Links would be appreciated. By all accounts I've heard, for vaccinated people, Omicron (the dominant variant) is like a mild cold.
  - jimnotgym 5y ago
    I have had Covid twice. Omicron was more like severe flu than a cold for me and my wife. In several ways it is quite unlike either a cold or flu. The brainfog, the feeling that one is ok one part of the day followed by a wave of fatigue were both quite dissimilar to cold and flu.
    - dataflow 5y ago
      Can I ask if you ever got vaccinated? (The claim was not about unvaccinated folks.)
      - jimnotgym 5y ago
        I was double vaccinated. My wife was triple vaccinated.
logicalmonster 5y ago
I think taking most illnesses seriously is wise, particularly so today as Covid has been around a shorter period of time and the long term effects are less known. What I’m curious about is how does the frequency of “long-Covid” compare to other post-viral syndromes? Having various forms of malaise, lethargy, and other health problems after an illness is not a new phenomenon. Does this affect 1 in 100 or 1 in 100,000 people severely? How does this compare with say past flus? It’s hard to compare long Covid to anything without a basis for comparison. I’ve had the flu before and was a physical wreck for about 6 months after until my body finally snapped back. Because it was pre-Covid times, I just sucked it up and focused on struggling through my day and then resting. I can easily imagine people going through something similar today, and because everybody is scared because of the media, we’re looking for a problem and labeling it rather than just generally sucking it up. (This isn’t to say that we shouldn’t work to understand and treat this problem, just that it might not be anything significantly different than all prior human experience) How much of the concern over “long-Covid” is simply a byproduct of psychology? We may be fixated on a problem and looking for it and therefore finding it more even though it’s not necessarily any more common of a problem. Maybe a direct comparison with other viruses shows different, but this is the comparison I’d like to see to better understand the risk-management here.
- nicoburns 5y ago
  I feel like it might be more that we weren’t concerned I’m about post-viral symptoms enough in the past than that we are overly concerned with them now. ME and Chronic Fatigue and similar can be life changing (in a bad way), but are not at all well understood, often dismissed as being in peoples heads, and do not have effective treatments. Long-covid is an increase in prevalence, and also does seem to present some unique symptoms.
  - Diggsey 5y ago
    > Long-covid is an increase in prevalence, and also does seem to present some unique symptoms. Is it though? That data is exactly what the commenter above is asking for, and I've also not seen any data comparing prevalence of long covid to long-lasting side effects of other diseases. > I feel like it might be more that we weren’t concerned I’m about post-viral symptoms enough in the past than that we are overly concerned with them now. ME and Chronic Fatigue and similar can be life changing (in a bad way) Being in a car crash can be life changing in a bad way (if not life ending) and yet most of us choose to get in cars on a regular basis. My point is that the severity alone is not useful: you can only make an informed decision knowing both severity and the probability of a particular outcome. Nowadays we are constantly bombarded with things fighting for our attention. Everyone is "raising awareness" for something, but as humans we are very limited in the things we can be constantly vigilent about. The only rational response is to prioritise the things that most warrant consideration, and ignore everything else. Long covid is a particularly pointless thing to be aware of, because it's not like any sane person chooses to get covid, so the risk calculation is already two steps divorced from the actions we can actually take to avoid it.
_yoqn 5y ago
I don't see any citations in this write-up. Colds and flu also cause direct cell damage. I haven't seen any concept of "long flu" anywhere. The vaccines are not going to prevent contraction or transmission anymore. And per this article, you can apparently be asymptomatic but still get long COVID? So why is "get you vaccine and booster" in the first sentence? It goes on to state that "10% to 30% of people might get long COVID." Not only is there no citation for that, what does that mean exactly? Isn't it 100% of people who get COVID may get long COVID? This piece isn't real science or medicine.
- Nursie 5y ago
  > So why is "get you vaccine and booster" in the first sentence? It's literally there in the second sentence - "The odds of illness severe enough to warrant hospitalization are dramatically lowered if you stay up to date on your COVID-19 vaccine, including a booster dose."
  - svnt 5y ago
    That was true for delta. Omicron is completely different regarding hospitalization data.
    - boulos 5y ago
      The absolute rate is lower for Onicron, but vaccinations still drastically lower the relative rate of hospitalization even for BA.2 [1]. [1] https://mobile.twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1505262670714322944?cxt=HHwWgICq2Y-b4uMpAAAA https://mobile.twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1505262670714322...
    - freyr 5y ago
      “Vaccine effectiveness of the mRNA vaccines to prevent COVID-19-associated hospitalizations included: 85% (95% CI: 82 to 88%) for 2 vaccine doses against Alpha; 85% (95% CI: 83 to 87%) for 2 doses against Delta; 94% (95% CI: 92 to 95%) for 3 doses against Delta; 65% (95% CI: 51 to 75%) for 2 doses against Omicron; and 86% (95% CI: 77 to 91%) for 3 doses against Omicron.” Less effective, but not ineffective, especially after a booster. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8845432/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8845432/
jimnotgym 5y ago
I am still confused. I have symptoms that may well be long Covid that are life limiting. However there is no test and no treatment. This paper suggests I should visit a physician, but apart from eliminating other causes I start to wonder what the point is?
- WinterMount223 5y ago
  Eliminating other causes is sufficient enough. A physician may have ideas for a treatment or at least establish a baseline to see if you improve.
  - jimnotgym 5y ago
    Good point. I was actually admitted to hospital with one of my symtoms without considering that it could be long Covid, so I suppose I did this in reverse.
MaximumYComb 5y ago
I had glandular fever in 2018 and was struck down by a reasonably severe post-viral syndrome. The term is nearly synomonous with chronic fatigue syndrome. I had brain fog, horrible post-exertional malaise (the most defining symptom of chronic fatigue), etc. There is no test to diagnose. There is no recovery timeline. I was simply told "you should get better within 1-5 years" by an endocrinologist. Luckily it took only 12 months to get my life onto track and somewhere around 2-3 years before I was comfortable doing strenous exercise.
iudqnolq 5y ago
I feel like the comments to this article exemplify the worst of HN - the assumption things other than computer science probably have simple solutions no one has thought of yet. For example, one commentator suggests possibly every patient, doctor, and researcher has missed that merely taking cough drops would completely clear up long covid. Even if it's true in some rare cases, I think we would be better off presuming that any active subject of research can't be solved by an outsider thinking about it for five minutes.
- soldehierro 5y ago
  I really appreciate HN for providing a refreshingly healthy, intellectually stimulating forum for discussion. In fact, as someone who is decidedly outside the tech-space, I mainly come here for the articles and discussions that have nothing to do with technology. At the same time, I think HN prides itself on being different from the myopic hivemind typical of other social media outlets - anecdotally, this something that I haven't found to be entirely accurate. (See anything about STEM vs. non-STEM education, medicine or biotechnology for an example of what I'm talking about).
  - rainonmoon 5y ago
    I think the subjects HN broadly has blindspots in is actually really wide but maybe being aware of them is specific to one's field. For a long time until recently I was similarly outside the tech space and the misconceptions about my former field that are asserted here with absolute confidence are staggering. Conversely, surely there are plenty of us here from all kinds of fields, so I even feel silly talking about HN as any kind of monolith. It's sticky!
- mach1ne 5y ago
  I disagree with your last point. We should presume that it's very probable that an outsider thinking for five minutes won't be producing a solution, but not disregard the possibility.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
Sophistifunk 5y ago
In Australia I can't even get a bloody antibody test to show I've had covid, because doctors are afraid it will be used to "justify" not getting vaccinated or not getting any further boosters. How is this helping us learn about the long-term effects of the virus? I've had a "scratch" in my throat for 2 years now, and with no diagnosis there's never going to be any treatment for me should something be offered. This entire schmozzle is a cluster of historic proportions from our "leaders" at the top all the way down to your local GP. And it's clear that society won't be able to be dealt with it in an adult, non-political, evidence-based, and non-hysterical manner for years to come.
- gjs278 5y ago
- mach1ne 5y ago
  What we are seeing, society-scale, is the human ability to adapt to changing conditions. When we have a 'normal' status in society and stable processes which have been fairly unchanged for decades, humans seem smart, since repetition is what we learn best. But when society is struck by something that forces everyone to adapt, the true human ability shines through, and it's nowhere near the one refined through times.
- IllogicalLogic 5y ago
- raxxorrax 5y ago
  My government is still talking about mandating vaccinations. I am boostered already but if they really implement it I am not sure what to do, I will certainly not comply with any additional vaccines that hold for 1-2 months. I don't want the shitty Euro passport or app either. To me it is very well a mass psychosis. Sure, Covid is a serious disease, getting vaccinated might make sense, especially if you are older. But the fear around it is just pathological at this point. Covid is a PR problem instead of a health problem by now. Get your vaccine turbo and afterburner for all I care, but this already moved beyond ridiculous. I am very sure my easily scared country will need a long time to drop mask mandates.
throwaway984393 5y ago
I still think about COVID-19 in relation to other common diseases, like STDs. We fear many STDs and readily take protections against them. But most STDs are quite benign and easily treatable compared to COVID-19. In this article, the long-COVID symptoms include: - loss of taste and smell, anxiety, depression, insomnia, cognitive dysfunction (brain damage), palpitation, shortness of breath (damage to lungs), loss of appetite, bowel symptoms, permanent acute kidney injury, blood clots, hair loss, rashes, sick euthyroid syndrome
dham 5y ago
Had a cold a month or so back (tested twice for Covid, negative). Just some random crap my son brought home from school. Have had a persistent cough ever since. Just get through it like I have been for the last 35 years. When I worked in grocery store had crap all the time. Then after having kids went through random sickness every 2 to 3 months. In fact I have 2 doctor visits I can point to pre covid. One in 2016 and one in 2018 when I literally went and was like I've been sick for 2 months. Doctors were like, yea you had some random virus, could take a while to shake it. Just took forever to get over it. Why is this all the sudden a thing? I know Covid can potentially cause (maybe?) more damage than the Flu/or random colds but did people literally not get sick before Covid? Because it really seems like it. Also are there studies on people who are hysterical about Covid getting more "Long Covid". I'm not saying there aren't physical symptoms. Definitely lost of taste or distorted taste is a big symptom, but could some symptons be mental too?
- daveoc64 5y ago
  >Why is this all the sudden a thing? I know Covid can potentially cause (maybe?) more damage than the Flu/or random colds but did people literally not get sick before Covid? Because it really seems like it. In my entire life, I cannot think of anyone I personally know (family, friends, colleagues) who has been seriously ill (either in the short term or long term) due to a cold, cough, or flu. On the other hand, in just two years of the pandemic, I've personally known several people who have either ended up in hospital with the virus itself, or have persistent problems over a year after infection (e.g. loss of smell). To make things more concerning, I know of people in their 20s and 30s that have been badly affected by Covid. Not just people who are 55+.
  - dham 5y ago
    Yea I'm not trying to down play it, just seems a little off. I can't think of a person in my entire life that I know that ever gotten the flu (while I've known them) besides my wife when she was like 16. I know around 8 people that got Covid though. The loss of smell one is going to be huge but that's a side effect of any virus. Maybe what we're seeing here is an insane amount of people getting a virus, not necessarily that it has worse post viral syndrome than any other virus. Either way we're in for a shit show. Unfortunately, we can't really dwell on Long Covid. We can only do what we can individually to reduce risk and move on. Unless of course we want to live in a bubble the rest of our lives. Also if related to loss of smell for your friends, I'd recommend them trying scent training. I ordered a kit through here https://abscent.org/learn-us/smell-training https://abscent.org/learn-us/smell-training. It does seem to help. I'm doing it as a meditation almost and thinking back to past memories with the scent. It's kind of cool.
aaron695 5y ago
mihaic 5y ago
The article mentions help being available, but what really does it recommend if you do have long-covid? Everyone knows vaccines and masks help, but there seems to be remarkably little being studied about dietary habits/supplements/physical activities that might aid before or after covid. Anecdotally, my brain fog was lifted pretty quickly once I started taking vitamin D and B-complex, which I just took on a hunch, but I honestly have no idea if it actually helped. Does anyone know of any larger-scale data collection efforts?
irrational 5y ago
I’ve been fortunate that I haven’t had Covid, but 3 of my siblings have (I mainly attribute that to my living in a state that took the pandemic seriously while they live in Republican states that thrive on Faux News). All three of them have had long Covid ranging from rapid severe weight gain to still not being able to smell or taste anything more than a year after being infected. I am vaccinated and boosted, but I am still masking up and social distancing because even the vaccinated can develop long Covid.
- dijonman2 5y ago
  My state had almost no restrictions, the quality of life is a trade off I welcome. I had it in Feb 2020 before it really took off, and I recovered just fine. The reality is that we don’t have the medical technology to stop it. It’s here to stay.
  - irrational 5y ago
    My quality of life has been just fine (frankly my mental health is better now than it was prior to March 2020). Yet, I haven’t had so much as a cold in all of that time, which is fantastic.
    - horns4lyfe 5y ago
      If restrictions don’t effect your quality of life then good for you, but that’s clearly not true for many many people.
- ramblerman 5y ago
  I haven't heard weight gain was related to long covid. If anything lack of smell would push one in the other direction no? Could this just be due to being indoors and quarantine.
- horns4lyfe 5y ago
  And all my friends in Austin resumed their normal fun lives a while ago, and all of them I know that got covid have recovered perfectly fine. Funny how anecdotes work. Statistically, living in a blue state vs a red state didn’t protect anyone from covid.
alfor 5y ago
There is zero advice on what to do except vaccination in the article. If you want to know what to do look at this video by a doctor treating people with covid. There is a host of things you can do to stack the chances in your favor. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vN30emwcNS4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vN30emwcNS4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Zzo4SJopcY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Zzo4SJopcY
gnicholas 5y ago
> “The vaccines are effective. But in those rare instances where you do get an infection despite vaccination, this protects you from having post-COVID syndrome—there’s a double insurance.” "Rare instances" of breakthrough infection? I had been taking the article seriously up to this point, but it lost all credibility when I saw this sentence.

151 points by amichail 5y ago

xupybd 5y ago

They say that Vaccines can prevent infection? I thought with Omicron that was no longer true?

doktorhladnjak 5y ago
If you're boosted, your chances of infection are reduced by around half. Double vaccinated is only a reduction of about 20% which is not high but also not nothing.
ksenzee 5y ago
Omicron does a better job of getting around vaccine-induced immunity than the previous variants did, but vaccinated people still have a lot of protection against infection compared to unvaccinated people.
- smackeyacky 5y ago
  Pure anecdote in our household. High school aged daughter who was not eligible for 3rd dose of vaccine got covid twice in 6 weeks, unknown variant, mild symptoms. The rest of us in the household had the 3rd dose. None of us got covid despite not really following the guidelines for isolation. Seems like the 3rd dose vaccine was pretty effective for us.
Ankaios 5y ago
At least anecdotally, the mRNA vaccines do appear to provide some protection against infection. I know three people who are mRNA-vaccinated who were recently extensively exposed to omicron. (They spent multiple hours in a single room or car with someone with symptoms who was later confirmed infected.) The exposed individuals are PCR tested at least twice a week and almost certainly never previously had covid. One of the three later tested positive, but the other two never tested positive. Maybe by sheer luck two out of three could have remained uninfected by omicron without being vaccinated, but I'd be pretty surprised.
- dataflow 5y ago
  > I know multiple people who are PCR tested at least twice a week, who have never had covid, who had extensive exposure to omicron (multiple hours in a single room or car) who never tested positive afterward. Do PCR tests indicate if you've ever been infected? I thought they only indicate if you're currently infected. In fact I'm curious if there is any test that can tell whether you've been infected by any variant of SARS-CoV-2 more than a few months ago; is there?
  - Ankaios 5y ago
    Your understanding is correct. PCR tests can only tell if you are currently infected. (Or at least have been so recently infected that enough remnant mRNA is still lingering in your body to be detectable.) Antibody tests can determine whether someone was infected previously, and I have heard that there are some that look for antibodies that are associated with infection but not vaccination. I don't know anything more about them than that, but maybe that could provide a thread to help start searching if you are interested in finding out more about them.
    - dataflow 5y ago
      Yeah I've looked that up before, and from what I recall reading, the antibody tests only work for "recent" infections in the last few months, not something that may have happened (say) a year or more ago. I don't remember reading that any test works for non-recent infections.
      - Ankaios 5y ago
        Yeah, there's a limited window over which antibody testing is useful. I hadn't heard that it was only a few months, but that wouldn't be shocking, especially if you want a low rate of false negatives. Hopefully someone reading this knows more than me about approaches to testing that might work over longer time scales and not be confused by vaccination.
        5y ago
hackerfromthefu 5y ago
You are correct, Omicron can infect people regardless of how many shots of current vaccines we have. Still vaccination reduces, in aggregate, the severity and duration of Omicron illnesses. So the statement that vaccines prevent infection, can be interpreted both ways. It's also true that vaccines can also cause illnesses, and again it's nuanced.

tomrod 5y ago

This is going to be with us a long time!

amichail 5y ago

The possibility of getting brain fog from long Covid terrifies me so much that I will probably wear a mask indoors for the rest of my life.

sbinthree 5y ago
It is likely going to be found that long covid can be reversed with acute doses of Vitamin B3. Here's a few links, including a Nature article about it: * https://www.nature.com/articles/s41418-020-0530-3 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41418-020-0530-3 * https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7322475/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7322475/ * Study: https://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04407390 https://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04407390 * https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1471490622000254 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S147149062...
- bagels 5y ago
  First paper was published March 2020, and only discusses B3 in the context of lung damage. Last paper doesn't seem to address cognitive function either.
- cjbgkagh 5y ago
  Long Covid is basically CFS/ME with some extra complications. I wish CFS/ME could be treated so easily, it's not like people are not motivated to try.
jimmygrapes 5y ago
bigDinosaur 5y ago
Have you realised that recovery is often very likely? I had brain fog for three months, and it spontaneously vanished after that. I don't know why people act like all 'long covid' is a death sentence. It's just like the fatigue that can come after certain other infections (e.g. EPV) where the vast majority will recover fine, but it might take quite a while (6 months to a year). Very few end up with actual CFS.

dataflow 5y ago

> And with the high transmissibility of the Omicron variant—which often results in milder disease outcomes—many patients may be concerned about developing long COVID. I have yet to read about anyone concluding that Omicron causes long COVID in vaccinated folks. If they have (or anyone else has) evidence indicating this is likely, I would love to hear it. Even the article doesn't claim this is the case.

throwaway984393 5y ago
There hasn't been enough time for anyone to be conclusive, Omicron has only been out for 4 months. Most health professionals expect more long COVID from it. The destruction of cells throughout the body is still happening and patient outcomes are still wildly different because individual health is wildly different. Reinfection also results in worse cases.
jamie1np 5y ago
Dr. Daniel Griffin on This Week In Virology works with long covid patients and is starting to see the first Omicron induced LC patients coming in. The variant has only been around for a few months, so by definition we won't have as many LC patients from it yet. Research takes time, and we're just starting to see the effects of this strain. We have no reason to be confident that Omicron won't induce LC.
- svnt 5y ago
  And we have no reason to be confident it will, either.

grover35 5y ago

The fact that masks aren't mandatory in public in the US is honestly unbelievable to me. Somehow the media has managed to convince the public that Covid is not as big a deal as it was in the beginning, but the research shows the exact opposite. I think we're going to have a day of reckoning when a wave of kids become old enough to work and are completely unproductive due to long haul COVID.

nradov 5y ago
You've got to be kidding. The virus is here to stay. I am absolutely unwilling to spend the rest of my life wearing a mask, regardless of the consequences. Most Americans feel the same way. There's more to life than avoiding a minor respiratory virus.
dataflow 5y ago
> but the research shows the exact opposite Links would be appreciated. By all accounts I've heard, for vaccinated people, Omicron (the dominant variant) is like a mild cold.
- jimnotgym 5y ago
  I have had Covid twice. Omicron was more like severe flu than a cold for me and my wife. In several ways it is quite unlike either a cold or flu. The brainfog, the feeling that one is ok one part of the day followed by a wave of fatigue were both quite dissimilar to cold and flu.
  - dataflow 5y ago
    Can I ask if you ever got vaccinated? (The claim was not about unvaccinated folks.)
    - jimnotgym 5y ago
      I was double vaccinated. My wife was triple vaccinated.

logicalmonster 5y ago

I think taking most illnesses seriously is wise, particularly so today as Covid has been around a shorter period of time and the long term effects are less known. What I’m curious about is how does the frequency of “long-Covid” compare to other post-viral syndromes? Having various forms of malaise, lethargy, and other health problems after an illness is not a new phenomenon. Does this affect 1 in 100 or 1 in 100,000 people severely? How does this compare with say past flus? It’s hard to compare long Covid to anything without a basis for comparison. I’ve had the flu before and was a physical wreck for about 6 months after until my body finally snapped back. Because it was pre-Covid times, I just sucked it up and focused on struggling through my day and then resting. I can easily imagine people going through something similar today, and because everybody is scared because of the media, we’re looking for a problem and labeling it rather than just generally sucking it up. (This isn’t to say that we shouldn’t work to understand and treat this problem, just that it might not be anything significantly different than all prior human experience) How much of the concern over “long-Covid” is simply a byproduct of psychology? We may be fixated on a problem and looking for it and therefore finding it more even though it’s not necessarily any more common of a problem. Maybe a direct comparison with other viruses shows different, but this is the comparison I’d like to see to better understand the risk-management here.

nicoburns 5y ago
I feel like it might be more that we weren’t concerned I’m about post-viral symptoms enough in the past than that we are overly concerned with them now. ME and Chronic Fatigue and similar can be life changing (in a bad way), but are not at all well understood, often dismissed as being in peoples heads, and do not have effective treatments. Long-covid is an increase in prevalence, and also does seem to present some unique symptoms.
- Diggsey 5y ago
  > Long-covid is an increase in prevalence, and also does seem to present some unique symptoms. Is it though? That data is exactly what the commenter above is asking for, and I've also not seen any data comparing prevalence of long covid to long-lasting side effects of other diseases. > I feel like it might be more that we weren’t concerned I’m about post-viral symptoms enough in the past than that we are overly concerned with them now. ME and Chronic Fatigue and similar can be life changing (in a bad way) Being in a car crash can be life changing in a bad way (if not life ending) and yet most of us choose to get in cars on a regular basis. My point is that the severity alone is not useful: you can only make an informed decision knowing both severity and the probability of a particular outcome. Nowadays we are constantly bombarded with things fighting for our attention. Everyone is "raising awareness" for something, but as humans we are very limited in the things we can be constantly vigilent about. The only rational response is to prioritise the things that most warrant consideration, and ignore everything else. Long covid is a particularly pointless thing to be aware of, because it's not like any sane person chooses to get covid, so the risk calculation is already two steps divorced from the actions we can actually take to avoid it.

_yoqn 5y ago

I don't see any citations in this write-up. Colds and flu also cause direct cell damage. I haven't seen any concept of "long flu" anywhere. The vaccines are not going to prevent contraction or transmission anymore. And per this article, you can apparently be asymptomatic but still get long COVID? So why is "get you vaccine and booster" in the first sentence? It goes on to state that "10% to 30% of people might get long COVID." Not only is there no citation for that, what does that mean exactly? Isn't it 100% of people who get COVID may get long COVID? This piece isn't real science or medicine.

Nursie 5y ago
> So why is "get you vaccine and booster" in the first sentence? It's literally there in the second sentence - "The odds of illness severe enough to warrant hospitalization are dramatically lowered if you stay up to date on your COVID-19 vaccine, including a booster dose."
- svnt 5y ago
  That was true for delta. Omicron is completely different regarding hospitalization data.
  - boulos 5y ago
    The absolute rate is lower for Onicron, but vaccinations still drastically lower the relative rate of hospitalization even for BA.2 [1]. [1] https://mobile.twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1505262670714322944?cxt=HHwWgICq2Y-b4uMpAAAA https://mobile.twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1505262670714322...
  - freyr 5y ago
    “Vaccine effectiveness of the mRNA vaccines to prevent COVID-19-associated hospitalizations included: 85% (95% CI: 82 to 88%) for 2 vaccine doses against Alpha; 85% (95% CI: 83 to 87%) for 2 doses against Delta; 94% (95% CI: 92 to 95%) for 3 doses against Delta; 65% (95% CI: 51 to 75%) for 2 doses against Omicron; and 86% (95% CI: 77 to 91%) for 3 doses against Omicron.” Less effective, but not ineffective, especially after a booster. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8845432/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8845432/

jimnotgym 5y ago

I am still confused. I have symptoms that may well be long Covid that are life limiting. However there is no test and no treatment. This paper suggests I should visit a physician, but apart from eliminating other causes I start to wonder what the point is?

WinterMount223 5y ago
Eliminating other causes is sufficient enough. A physician may have ideas for a treatment or at least establish a baseline to see if you improve.
- jimnotgym 5y ago
  Good point. I was actually admitted to hospital with one of my symtoms without considering that it could be long Covid, so I suppose I did this in reverse.

MaximumYComb 5y ago

I had glandular fever in 2018 and was struck down by a reasonably severe post-viral syndrome. The term is nearly synomonous with chronic fatigue syndrome. I had brain fog, horrible post-exertional malaise (the most defining symptom of chronic fatigue), etc. There is no test to diagnose. There is no recovery timeline. I was simply told "you should get better within 1-5 years" by an endocrinologist. Luckily it took only 12 months to get my life onto track and somewhere around 2-3 years before I was comfortable doing strenous exercise.

iudqnolq 5y ago

I feel like the comments to this article exemplify the worst of HN - the assumption things other than computer science probably have simple solutions no one has thought of yet. For example, one commentator suggests possibly every patient, doctor, and researcher has missed that merely taking cough drops would completely clear up long covid. Even if it's true in some rare cases, I think we would be better off presuming that any active subject of research can't be solved by an outsider thinking about it for five minutes.

soldehierro 5y ago
I really appreciate HN for providing a refreshingly healthy, intellectually stimulating forum for discussion. In fact, as someone who is decidedly outside the tech-space, I mainly come here for the articles and discussions that have nothing to do with technology. At the same time, I think HN prides itself on being different from the myopic hivemind typical of other social media outlets - anecdotally, this something that I haven't found to be entirely accurate. (See anything about STEM vs. non-STEM education, medicine or biotechnology for an example of what I'm talking about).
- rainonmoon 5y ago
  I think the subjects HN broadly has blindspots in is actually really wide but maybe being aware of them is specific to one's field. For a long time until recently I was similarly outside the tech space and the misconceptions about my former field that are asserted here with absolute confidence are staggering. Conversely, surely there are plenty of us here from all kinds of fields, so I even feel silly talking about HN as any kind of monolith. It's sticky!
mach1ne 5y ago
I disagree with your last point. We should presume that it's very probable that an outsider thinking for five minutes won't be producing a solution, but not disregard the possibility.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

Sophistifunk 5y ago

In Australia I can't even get a bloody antibody test to show I've had covid, because doctors are afraid it will be used to "justify" not getting vaccinated or not getting any further boosters. How is this helping us learn about the long-term effects of the virus? I've had a "scratch" in my throat for 2 years now, and with no diagnosis there's never going to be any treatment for me should something be offered. This entire schmozzle is a cluster of historic proportions from our "leaders" at the top all the way down to your local GP. And it's clear that society won't be able to be dealt with it in an adult, non-political, evidence-based, and non-hysterical manner for years to come.

gjs278 5y ago
mach1ne 5y ago
What we are seeing, society-scale, is the human ability to adapt to changing conditions. When we have a 'normal' status in society and stable processes which have been fairly unchanged for decades, humans seem smart, since repetition is what we learn best. But when society is struck by something that forces everyone to adapt, the true human ability shines through, and it's nowhere near the one refined through times.
IllogicalLogic 5y ago
raxxorrax 5y ago
My government is still talking about mandating vaccinations. I am boostered already but if they really implement it I am not sure what to do, I will certainly not comply with any additional vaccines that hold for 1-2 months. I don't want the shitty Euro passport or app either. To me it is very well a mass psychosis. Sure, Covid is a serious disease, getting vaccinated might make sense, especially if you are older. But the fear around it is just pathological at this point. Covid is a PR problem instead of a health problem by now. Get your vaccine turbo and afterburner for all I care, but this already moved beyond ridiculous. I am very sure my easily scared country will need a long time to drop mask mandates.

throwaway984393 5y ago

I still think about COVID-19 in relation to other common diseases, like STDs. We fear many STDs and readily take protections against them. But most STDs are quite benign and easily treatable compared to COVID-19. In this article, the long-COVID symptoms include: - loss of taste and smell, anxiety, depression, insomnia, cognitive dysfunction (brain damage), palpitation, shortness of breath (damage to lungs), loss of appetite, bowel symptoms, permanent acute kidney injury, blood clots, hair loss, rashes, sick euthyroid syndrome

dham 5y ago

Had a cold a month or so back (tested twice for Covid, negative). Just some random crap my son brought home from school. Have had a persistent cough ever since. Just get through it like I have been for the last 35 years. When I worked in grocery store had crap all the time. Then after having kids went through random sickness every 2 to 3 months. In fact I have 2 doctor visits I can point to pre covid. One in 2016 and one in 2018 when I literally went and was like I've been sick for 2 months. Doctors were like, yea you had some random virus, could take a while to shake it. Just took forever to get over it. Why is this all the sudden a thing? I know Covid can potentially cause (maybe?) more damage than the Flu/or random colds but did people literally not get sick before Covid? Because it really seems like it. Also are there studies on people who are hysterical about Covid getting more "Long Covid". I'm not saying there aren't physical symptoms. Definitely lost of taste or distorted taste is a big symptom, but could some symptons be mental too?

daveoc64 5y ago
>Why is this all the sudden a thing? I know Covid can potentially cause (maybe?) more damage than the Flu/or random colds but did people literally not get sick before Covid? Because it really seems like it. In my entire life, I cannot think of anyone I personally know (family, friends, colleagues) who has been seriously ill (either in the short term or long term) due to a cold, cough, or flu. On the other hand, in just two years of the pandemic, I've personally known several people who have either ended up in hospital with the virus itself, or have persistent problems over a year after infection (e.g. loss of smell). To make things more concerning, I know of people in their 20s and 30s that have been badly affected by Covid. Not just people who are 55+.
- dham 5y ago
  Yea I'm not trying to down play it, just seems a little off. I can't think of a person in my entire life that I know that ever gotten the flu (while I've known them) besides my wife when she was like 16. I know around 8 people that got Covid though. The loss of smell one is going to be huge but that's a side effect of any virus. Maybe what we're seeing here is an insane amount of people getting a virus, not necessarily that it has worse post viral syndrome than any other virus. Either way we're in for a shit show. Unfortunately, we can't really dwell on Long Covid. We can only do what we can individually to reduce risk and move on. Unless of course we want to live in a bubble the rest of our lives. Also if related to loss of smell for your friends, I'd recommend them trying scent training. I ordered a kit through here https://abscent.org/learn-us/smell-training https://abscent.org/learn-us/smell-training. It does seem to help. I'm doing it as a meditation almost and thinking back to past memories with the scent. It's kind of cool.

aaron695 5y ago

mihaic 5y ago

The article mentions help being available, but what really does it recommend if you do have long-covid? Everyone knows vaccines and masks help, but there seems to be remarkably little being studied about dietary habits/supplements/physical activities that might aid before or after covid. Anecdotally, my brain fog was lifted pretty quickly once I started taking vitamin D and B-complex, which I just took on a hunch, but I honestly have no idea if it actually helped. Does anyone know of any larger-scale data collection efforts?

irrational 5y ago

I’ve been fortunate that I haven’t had Covid, but 3 of my siblings have (I mainly attribute that to my living in a state that took the pandemic seriously while they live in Republican states that thrive on Faux News). All three of them have had long Covid ranging from rapid severe weight gain to still not being able to smell or taste anything more than a year after being infected. I am vaccinated and boosted, but I am still masking up and social distancing because even the vaccinated can develop long Covid.

dijonman2 5y ago
My state had almost no restrictions, the quality of life is a trade off I welcome. I had it in Feb 2020 before it really took off, and I recovered just fine. The reality is that we don’t have the medical technology to stop it. It’s here to stay.
- irrational 5y ago
  My quality of life has been just fine (frankly my mental health is better now than it was prior to March 2020). Yet, I haven’t had so much as a cold in all of that time, which is fantastic.
  - horns4lyfe 5y ago
    If restrictions don’t effect your quality of life then good for you, but that’s clearly not true for many many people.
ramblerman 5y ago
I haven't heard weight gain was related to long covid. If anything lack of smell would push one in the other direction no? Could this just be due to being indoors and quarantine.
horns4lyfe 5y ago
And all my friends in Austin resumed their normal fun lives a while ago, and all of them I know that got covid have recovered perfectly fine. Funny how anecdotes work. Statistically, living in a blue state vs a red state didn’t protect anyone from covid.

alfor 5y ago

There is zero advice on what to do except vaccination in the article. If you want to know what to do look at this video by a doctor treating people with covid. There is a host of things you can do to stack the chances in your favor. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vN30emwcNS4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vN30emwcNS4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Zzo4SJopcY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Zzo4SJopcY

gnicholas 5y ago

> “The vaccines are effective. But in those rare instances where you do get an infection despite vaccination, this protects you from having post-COVID syndrome—there’s a double insurance.” "Rare instances" of breakthrough infection? I had been taking the article seriously up to this point, but it lost all credibility when I saw this sentence.