28 ms·

NYC allows citizens to report idling vehicles in exchange for a cut of the fines

334 points by robszumski 5y ago

pessimizer 5y ago
Do one for when people double-park in main arteries during rush hour. I don't even need a cut, I'll be a willing narc.
PragmaticPulp 5y ago
> Mr. Slapikas said he pulled in $64,000 in rewards in 2021 for simply paying attention on his daily walks for exercise: “I would expect to get three a day without even looking.” That’s almost 10% of the total fines paid out last year, according to the article. I wonder what the distribution of payouts looks like. I assume it’s a small number of people collecting the bulk of the fines. Regardless, it looks like it’s working. Idling cars may not be producing the bulk of emissions, but it’s one of the easiest places to start cutting as it’s otherwise wasted fuel and emissions.
- legobmw99 5y ago
  Further down it mentions that “20 or so” people submit 85% of complaints
  - ceejayoz 5y ago
    I suspect that’s about to jump up.
    - lotsofpulp 5y ago
      The article also says the city does not make getting the payout easy and it requires many hours of follow up to maybe get paid.
      - wpietri 5y ago
        I look forward to some startup automating the steps and taking a slice.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
        notreallyserio 5y ago
        "It's like Uber but for tattling!" I kid, I'm down for this sort of citizen engagement when it comes to externalities.
        kingcharles 5y ago
        We can call it: https://www.tatler.com/ https://www.tatler.com/
        pawelmurias 5y ago
        stich.es?
        black_puppydog 5y ago
        Thanks for this look into a bizarro world. :)
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
        allisdust 5y ago
        You mean snitch.ai.of course. Get your own personalised snitches to avoid stitches.
        FooBarBizBazz 5y ago
        It's like the Texas approach to abortion. The whole thing just doesn't feel right. I don't care if, in this particular case, the cause is not-terrible (preventing pollution). There's just something "off" about the enforcement mechanism. Serious crimes? Sure: Do your civic duty; call the police. But this? Mind your own business. It feels vaguely East-German.
    - hackernewds 5y ago
      This is why labor markets are so tight /s
- mizzao 5y ago
  Classic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_law distribution, isn't it!?
  - TheSpiceIsLife 5y ago
    Yep yep. Pareto Distribution: 20% of the Y cause 80% of the Z https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_distribution https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_distribution
- technobabbler 5y ago
  Abortions in Texas, guns in California, tickets in NYC... guess vigilante profiteering is the new legislative norm? Get citizens to snitch on each other to fill your budget shortfalls.
  - tantalor 5y ago
    False analogy. The Texas thing is a (idiotic) workaround for the fact that the state can't do anything about it.
    - technobabbler 5y ago
      Explain?
      - YawningAngel 5y ago
        It would not be legal for the state of Texas to do what it is encouraging private citizens to do in its stead
        technobabbler 5y ago
        The potentially illegal/unconstitutional part of it is the prevention of abortions. Encouraging citizens to bounty hunt each other... that's the novelty that the other states are copying. These creepy "see something, say something" laws turn neighbor against neighbor, criminalizing behavior that would otherwise be considered acceptable, and turn passive observers into active enforcers for the sake of profit.
        magicalist 5y ago
        > criminalizing behavior that would otherwise be considered acceptable Again, these situations are not comparable. Idling commercial vehicles are already disallowed, this program literally gives a cut of the fine the government is going to impose.
- antattack 5y ago
  Someone is helping enforcing laws and they don't have a qualified immunity. Seems like a step in the right direction. Of course, based on what happened in GA, there's a limit to what regular citizens can be entrusted with.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
duskwuff 5y ago
The article mentions that reporters are required to do their own research to determine if a business is a repeat offender. I wonder if there's an opportunity for a service to act as a clearinghouse for these reports? :)
- notatoad 5y ago
  that was my first thought too, but NYC already makes it pretty easy to look up traffic violations by licence plate number. if idling violations are included here, there's not much one could add to that. https://nycserv.nyc.gov/NYCServWeb/PVO_Search.jsp https://nycserv.nyc.gov/NYCServWeb/PVO_Search.jsp
ericbarrett 5y ago
One frosty, completely still morning in Brooklyn, a white panel truck had been idling on our corner for 20 minutes. I walked out to find diesel fumes hanging, head-high, like some kind of haunted house fog, for a block in every direction. I fully support this law, citizen reporting and all—diesel soot kills. Turn your engine off.
- slenk 5y ago
  Will you at least acknowledge this trend of citizens reporting citizens is a dangerous trend?
  - sa46 5y ago
    I suspect the overwhelming majority of crime reporting is citizens reporting other citizens, i.e. calling 911.
    - mobiclick 5y ago
      The problem here is offering monetary incentives. Purposefully or not, I'm sure judges would hand out a lot more fines if they got a cut out of it.
      - notch656a 5y ago
        I can't wait until all the idling police officers, political figures, and the very people collecting the fines get drained dry by people calling. They want people to rat out people idling, lets start with government officials. Every single one of them should be ratted out at every possible opportunity before we out the general populace.
    - slenk 5y ago
      As mentioned below, its the monetary incentive that bothers me. I wasn't very clear, my bad.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
imapeopleperson 5y ago
Ice cream trucks are easy targets. Those jerks will park next to a playground while their diesel fumes blanket the area.
- jimmaswell 5y ago
  This is satire, right?
  - CurrentB 5y ago
    Do you not believe they don't turn off their engine, or think they should be entitled to keep it running?
    - jimmaswell 5y ago
      They should be entitled to keep it running. It's completely blown out of proportion.
      - sonicggg 5y ago
        Why would they be above the law? Are they considered an emergency vehicle?
      - Gigachad 5y ago
        It's not blown out of proportion. Diesel and just all combustion in general is shaping up to be the next asbestos/lead. It's extremely clear how dangerous these fumes are but we have been desensitized in to accepting it.
        jimmaswell 5y ago
        Source on diesel being equally dangerous as chronic lead or asbestos exposure?
        foxes 5y ago
epa 5y ago
Now lets see NYC Idle Coin mining reward for successful report.
lr4444lr 5y ago
Thr meter maids in NYC were brought under the NYPD because they used to be routinely beaten up when they were a civilian agency issuing people tickets. Now I don't condone violence, but this just sounds really risky. A lot of these drivers may be forced to eat some or all of the fine, and when they see some average joe shmo playing tattletale on them, I'd expect an uncomfortably large number of them to get physical. I do not think it's wise of NYC gov. to promote this sort of thing.
- asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
  You don't tell them you're tattling. The average truck is passed by hundreds or thousands of pedestrians per day. How is the driver going to know which one phoned him or her in?
  - lr4444lr 5y ago
    Because you have to stand there for multiple minutes recording. Truckers will learn how to spot them.
    - pooper 5y ago
      > According to the article, you have to record a three minute long video which clearly shows the vehicle owner and captures the sound of the engine. > Because you have to stand there for multiple minutes recording. Truckers will learn how to spot them. I wonder... can you record a three minute video of a New York Police Department patrol car? If so, who pays for it?
      - nathancahill 5y ago
        Congratulations, you've just unlocked infinite money. But also infinite debt. So it's a double-edged sword I guess?
      - Wowfunhappy 5y ago
        > If so, who pays for it? Taxpayers.
Someone1234 5y ago
I know this is about commercial vehicles, but on a personal note I really wish noncommercial vehicles were far better in accessory mode. Specifically it is common that either the hot, cold, or both HVAC won't function while the engine is off and the vehicle in accessory mode often leaving people idling in high or low weather scenarios (or simply just melting ice on your windshields). I feel like there's far too much focus spent on chastising the sinners and not nearly enough effect spent creating vehicles where the common sense action is not to need to idle. Even hybrids may run their gas engines purely for the HVAC, we have a Prius and depending on the temperate and fan speed, it can kick on the engine even with full hybrid battery. Let me ask this: Where is the article or city report that talks to the commercial drivers and seeks insight into WHY they're idling? Unreasonable time constraints? Cabin temp? Company policies? Let's dig into that. This "burn the witch" stuff never works long term, and we have to seek to make non-idling the rational choice not the enforced one. It minds me a lot of these "cut speeding initiatives." They work, while they're going on, but success has been seen longer term by just re-designing roads to communicate the safe speed (e.g. planting trees, pinchpoints, et al[0]). [0] https://nacto.org/publication/urban-street-design-guide/design-controls/design-speed/speed-reduction-mechanisms/ https://nacto.org/publication/urban-street-design-guide/desi...
- ars 5y ago
  Non-diesel vehicles don't pollute much if at all while idling. If we could get rid of diesel from commercial vehicles air quality would dramatically improve.
  - amluto 5y ago
    Only when warm. Many modern gasoline burning vehicles are extremely stinky when cold. As I understand it, they deliberately run rich when first started to help heat up the catalytic converter, and I wonder if this is a case of optimizing for the wrong thing. EVs are, of course, emission-free when idle. (Although, oddly, at least some Teslas still can’t open or close their windows when in the off-ish state.)
    - 5y ago
mdmglr 5y ago
How are these complaints verified and how does the city know multiple complaints are not being made with the same video? Is the fine per occurrence? How are videos checked for evidence of editing?
- semiquaver 5y ago
  The article says that there is a staff of 14 verifying the videos. The fines are levied through a judicial system similar to traffic tickets, so the check on these potential abuses is for the accused to offer evidence to the contrary. For example, if they were already fined for a violation occurring at a specific time that would be an excellent defense against a subsequent ticket.
  - asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
    Fourteen people . . . incredible. I reckon the program is paying for itself but it seems surprising that the flow of complaints is high enough to keep a team that large busy.
    - brewdad 5y ago
      This is New York City, not Kansas City. I'm sure there are more than enough complaints.
      - jaclaz 5y ago
        How much time does it take to check the video/produce the related paperwork? 14 people normal hours/normal weekdays are roughly 14*1800=25,200 hours/year. The complaints, according to the article, are 12,000 per year. That makes it roughly 2 hours/complaint. At first sight it doesn't sound like the clerks are overworked.
stefan_ 5y ago
Sounds like someone needs to make an app that takes care of the paperwork with the city for a cut of the cut.
- clearcoat 5y ago
  Exactly what I was thinking, most of NYC data is accessible via a pretty decent API, I wonder if it includes what's needed here.
clearcoat 5y ago
Wow, this is fantastic. I like to work on my balcony, but there are constantly trucks parking below, with poorly maintained engines left to idle for hours a day, spewing fumes that leave a layer of grime coating everything (and send me back inside).
- notatoad 5y ago
  sounds like you could make a decent bit of money by installing a permanently-running camera pointed at the road.
  - Gigachad 5y ago
    I'd let the government install a camera on my balcony pointing at the road for free if it meant dealing with drivers.
technothrasher 5y ago
Oooh, I wish they did this in MA. I could make tons of money just in the pickup line at my kid's school alone. We've got an anti-idling law here in MA, but I don't think I've ever heard of anybody getting a ticket, and most folks aren't even aware of the law.
aaron695 5y ago
ilikeatari 5y ago
How about automatic idle mitigation systems? Just automate it on truck level. Cost is low and at scale would be very minimal. Also if you are worried about ambient cab temp, you should not be too worried.
- ilikeatari 5y ago
  To clarify this tech already exists.
- clearcoat 5y ago
  I mean these trucks are pretty much universally in absolutely terribly shape and not really maintained.
martyvis 5y ago
Are a lot of these trucks refrigerated? Are they idling simply because the engine is the primary power source that keeps the refrigeration unit running? My most recent Subaru has automatic idle stop/start intended to reduce idling waiting at traffic lights but makes sure cabin AC, battery levels etc aren't compromised.
- scrose 5y ago
  Trucks that need the engine running for refrigeration are exempt from this. I’d wager the vast majority of trucks doing deliveries / idling in NYC are not carrying material that needs to be refrigerated, and they’re usually clearly labeled on the outside.
arealaccount 5y ago
Why do these trucks idle? Seems like an unnecessary expense for their business
- n8ta 5y ago
  Do you turn your car off when you are waiting outside a house to pick someone up? Most people don't. They just aren't thinking about it.
  - Gigachad 5y ago
    Probably depends on how expensive the fuel in the area is. Most people I know would certainly turn it off since leaving it idle while waiting means literal dollars worth of fuel being burned.
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    I would think the bigger reason is for heat/air conditioning when it is too hot or cold outside.
    - skinnymuch 5y ago
      Neither are needed 95%+ of the time when the time period is waiting for someone outside their house.
  - raldi 5y ago
    Yes, of course. You don't? Why not?
    - n8ta 5y ago
      Maybe you want the radio going? Maybe you want your music to stay on? Lots of reasons people would unthinkingly not do this. My goal was to point out that for many this is an unconscious decision.
      - raldi 5y ago
5ESS 5y ago
how long before an AI deepfake tool comes out for making fake videos? (And costing innocent truck owners big $?) this is a disaster waiting to happen.
- Gigachad 5y ago
  Just make the penalty for fraud very significant and award the truck drivers half if they can prove fraud happened (Dashcam video or something similar). Combined with city CCTV it should be pretty possible to work out who was lying in the case of a dispute.
  - kadoban 5y ago
    I'm sure making a false report for money is _already_ very illegal.
- Buldak 5y ago
  I don't know, if you're worried about that sort of thing I'd think there's a very long list of exploits that should concern you more than this quirky bounty program.
- woodruffw 5y ago
  Given the domain (a highly surveilled city, drivers making documented stops, a high standard of evidence) there is very little room for fraud here.
- raldi 5y ago
  Never, for like a dozen reasons
sicromoft 5y ago
https://archive.is/5seDV https://archive.is/5seDV
eyelidlessness 5y ago
> more than 12,000 last year That… doesn’t seem like a large number? It’s 1,000 per month. This could happen once a day and be four blocks away each time. I see multiple trucks parked and idling daily in the same few blocks of a residential area of Seattle. If this is some kind of money making scheme, sure seems like they’re being really lazy about it and leaving money on the table.
- woodruffw 5y ago
  It's a very small number, unfortunately -- infractions like these are among the cities lowest priorities, despite their outsized impact on quality of life. This isn't the only virtuous revenue stream that the city throws away: it's an open secret that parking violations are basically unenforced for companies, and that the city will happily agree to cents on the dollar once you've racked up a few thousand violations.
FpUser 5y ago
>"This is a scene from the city’s benign-sounding but often raucous Citizens Air Complaint Program, a public health campaign that invites — and pays — people to report trucks that are parked and idling for more than three minutes, or one minute if outside a school. Those who report collect 25 percent of any fine against a truck by submitting a video just over 3 minutes in length that shows the engine is running and the name of the company on the door" The idea of people ratting on each other like this somehow does not inspire me. Doing it for free in egregious cases is ok in my book but the former in my view just plainly sucks.
- ip26 5y ago
  How do you feel about whistleblower compensation from the SEC?
  - FpUser 5y ago
    Not sure. I mean I am all for whistleblowing. Have no strong opinion about compensation in this manner. Ratting on people is different. Sure if I see an actual crime (or at least what constitute one in my eyes) I'll report. But report for example my neighbor for building "illegal" shed - I think it'll hurt my inner integrity too much.
    - woodruffw 5y ago
      To be clear: SEC "whistleblowers" are rats in the colloquial sense: they come from inside the companies themselves, and report malfeasance to the SEC in exchange for a cut of the penalties. Similar, what we're talking about is an actual crime in NYC. It's illegal, full stop, to idle a commercial vehicle for more than 3 minutes. You might not want that to be the law, but that's a very difference stance vs. "it's not an actual crime."
      - FpUser 5y ago
        >"To be clear: SEC "whistleblowers" are rats in the colloquial sense: they come from inside the companies themselves, and report malfeasance to the SEC in exchange for a cut of the penalties." Put it this way. I'll deal with it when I see it. For now this is too abstract for me. In any ways if they only do it because they get rat money I am not very fond of it. >"Similar, what we're talking about is an actual crime in NYC" And it is a crime to be gay in Barbados. So fucking what? If I was in jury I would go for nullification right away and fuck this law. I have my own moral compass and am trying to follow it in how I perceive other humans.
gnicholas 5y ago
> The reporters are also responsible for requesting their rewards months later, once they have learned that a fine was paid. The city does not pay the reporters automatically. This is super lousy.
- giantg2 5y ago
  It's surprising the government pays them at all. I would bot be shocked if they decide to lower the reward after seeing the amounts some people made.
- MaceOutWindu 5y ago
  I wonder what the conversion rate on this is. How many people forget and move on with their lives? How many are that focused on the bag?
nayuki 5y ago
According to the article, the truck drivers act all indignant that they are not allowed to idle their trucks and that citizens can report that behavior and cause fines to be issued. Did these people forget that operating a motor vehicle is a responsibility and privilege, not an unlimited right, that their behavior has consequences for the general public (externalities like air pollution, collisions), and that they are required to follow the law when operating their vehicle?
- nullc 5y ago
  > Did these people forget that operating a motor vehicle is a responsibility and privilege, not an unlimited right, that their behavior has consequences for the general public (externalities like air pollution, collisions), and that they are required to follow the law when operating their vehicle? So ... they're just like 90% of the posters in any HN thread where driving in excess of the speed limit on the highway is discussed then?
  - nayuki 5y ago
    The modern interpretation is that reducing speed limits by writing a number on a sign is much less effective than designing the road to feel more dangerous - narrower lanes, more turns, more obstacles nearby, etc.
- hackernewds 5y ago
  The protest makes sense if the law is not worthy of common sense. The law is not a great signal for morality or ethics -- see as an extreme example: segregation
- worewood 5y ago
  > operating a motor vehicle is a responsability and privilege Responsability yes, but a privilege? If public transport were abundant and pervasive everywhere in the world that would be true. Freedom of movement is a basic right and in a lot of places, you can not enjoy that right unless you have a car.
  - 5y ago
_aleph2c_ 5y ago
I don't like diesel fumes either, but I'm surprised to see so many Americans signing up for an informant society. There are other ways to solve this problem.
- frakkingcylons 5y ago
  Yeah because the Stasi were real stickers for the environment.
- morcheeba 5y ago
  What are your other ways?
- tcbasche 5y ago
  I suppose there's not many other ways to incentivise people in America other than offering them money. Seems like simply informing for the overall benefit of society wouldn't be incentive enough ...
  - systemvoltage 5y ago
    The problem is about how it is enforced. Vigilante-type crowd sourcing to enforce laws isn't the right way to go about this.
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > Vigilante-type crowd sourcing ...is a contradiction in terms. People who report things to the responsible authorities rather than taking violent enforcement action themselves are engaging in exactly the behavior vigilanteism is defined in opposition to.
      - systemvoltage 5y ago
        Do you really think citizens policing each other is a good way to enforce laws? This is going to get ugly real fast. It creates division and disharmony in a community. No wonder people are getting angry about this. Read history.
charlieyu1 5y ago
- mjmahone17 5y ago
  How is this any different from a reward for information leading to someone’s arrest?
- kyawzazaw 5y ago
  Might I introduce you to the existing system of whistleblowers being rewarded, and pleas in the justice system?
  - giantg2 5y ago
    Whistleblowers get a cut of the fine? Or are they just being made whole again?
    - woodruffw 5y ago
      It depends on the incentive structure, but the SEC's whistleblower program is a notable example of reporters being given a percentage of the fine.
      - giantg2 5y ago
        I work at an SEC regulated place and hate my job. I'll keep this in mind!
    - shagie 5y ago
      https://www.irs.gov/compliance/whistleblower-office https://www.irs.gov/compliance/whistleblower-office > The IRS Whistleblower Office pays monetary awards to eligible individuals whose information is used by the IRS. The award percentage depends on several factors, but generally falls between 15 and 30 percent of the proceeds collected and attributable to the whistleblower's information. Awards can only be issued once a final determination can be made, and as such, award payments cannot be made until the taxpayer has exhausted all appeal rights and the taxpayer no longer can file a claim for refund or otherwise seek to recover the proceeds from the government. Know someone with $100k of unpaid taxes? That's a $15k - $30k payout. (edit) The report for 2020 - https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p5241.pdf https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p5241.pdf In 2020 they had 593 claims, 169 awards. They collected $472M and paid out $86M (18.3%). This is down from 2018 where $1.4B was collected, and $312M payouts where given.
gxt 5y ago
Lol. This is 100% a money laundering scheme.
RcouF1uZ4gsC 5y ago
I think this provides an opportunity for an app to remind drivers to turn their vehicle off and then on every 2 1/2 minutes to avoid the fine.
oceanplexian 5y ago
I feel like this is yet another example of the insane entitlement of New Yorkers. Keep in mind this a city that has a rampant violent crime problem, incredible garbage, wealth inequality, and theft problems and NYT uses some of the worlds most valuable advertising space to push a story about idling vehicles? This is why there is such a disconnect between people who live in the rest of the USA and those who live in a few select cities on the coasts. For those who live in the bubble and wonder “Why don’t people identify with my political views” this is a great example.
- gutitout 5y ago
  The people who rule also live in this city. Why is there nothing being done about the crime, garbage and injustice?
- presentation 5y ago
  It’s not like every article in the New York Times has to be about violent crime, garbage, inequality and theft. They publish very many articles all the time! And society has very many problems, big and small! I guess you and the rest of the upset heartland commoners can subscribe to “New York Crime, Garbage, Inequality, and Theft Weekly” if other content bugs you so badly.
- rottencupcakes 5y ago
  And Texas uses similar tactics to get people to report on their neighbor's abotions: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/09/us/abortion-law-regulations-texas.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/09/us/abortion-law-regulatio... Maybe people should realize that everybody spying and reporting their neighbor is a dark road, more in line with the Gestapo and Eastern Bloc countries than the freedom we claim to love in America.
  - giantg2 5y ago
    I think the abortion one is a civil law (which has not be seen before). I believe the idling law is criminal (citation). Most states have a process already for submitting a private criminal complaint, just without the fine sharing. We complain about police states and lack of training/oversight, yet we want to turn everyone into this police function and with no training?
memish 5y ago
The city figured out how to turn citizens into gig workers.
tormock 5y ago
So all citizens are for-hire police officers... ok.
ladberg 5y ago
As someone who will soon be moving into a below ground-level apartment in Manhattan, this makes me happy!
fmakunbound 5y ago
Turning into a nation of snitches with this and the Texas bullshit law and California’s ironic equivalent.
- draw_down 5y ago
- vmception 5y ago
  ha, more like people just noticed, standing in this society has always been a game of reading comprehension or affording a lawyer that has done so already. there are several sectors where non-state actors are deputized to enforce compliance of private citizens, for decades at least. its more interesting to me that someone just noticed and cared enough to apply it to other areas of life, and that everyone else just noticed this method will have durable consensus in our constitutional framework. so I guess... surprise?
gernb 5y ago
I'm sure I'd live to regret this idea but I really wish I could send video of other vehicles breaking the law to some government agency and have them fine the drivers of those cars. And, I don't really care they don't know who the driver is. Fine the owner of the car and then the owner can decide if they trust the other people to drive the car. I know that I'd probably get some tickets myself but my belief is that we'd be safer overall if more people obeyed the traffic laws and that they would obey them if they were likely to get caught. Also, I don't need a cut of the fines.
- fredophile 5y ago
  You could start a Twitter account like this one: https://mobile.twitter.com/placardabuse https://mobile.twitter.com/placardabuse
- _Wintermute 5y ago
  This is becoming relatively common in the UK. Lots of cyclists film their commutes due to aggressive drivers, and report dangerous driving by uploading a video to an online portal.
zxcvbn4038 5y ago
This is how NYC raises money - when the revenue dips they send out the sidewalk inspectors, health inspectors, tow trucks, etc. and write up a bunch of fines. Most restaurants have a way to signal the kitchen that an inspector has arrived and they'll quickly toss everything they are cooking into the garbage because it's cheaper than getting a fine. Former mayor Bloomberg's planned crack down on soda drinks was more about issuing fines for not serving precisely 8oz of liquid - though the next mayor dropped it and all the special order measuring cups for the health inspectors went to a warehouse. I've witnessed a fleets of NYPD tow trucks clearing out streets of UPS and Fedex trucks. They know what time the delivery companies hit various parts of town and they are ready for them. Recently the New York fire inspectors have started fining landlords for debris in the hallways (debris = amazon deliveries left at the door). So now if the delivery comes to the door you have to get it before the building super throws it away to save the landlord from being fined, if it gets left by the mailbox then the food delivery people steal it on their way out. No winning. About ten years ago there was a good samaritan going around feeding parking meters to keep people from being fined. He was arrested and taken to jail. They let him go without charges but not before he spent the weekend - because the person who processes releases doesn't work on weekends they said. I think he sued and ended up settling out of court.
- rapind 5y ago
  This is a really good point. You always need to look at incentives. It's OK for both society and politicians to benefit, but you should always dig a little deeper. Someone else in this thread pointed out "the city does not make getting the payout easy and it requires many hours of follow up to maybe get paid." So now we should be at least a bit cynical, and start asking questions about why it's so difficult to get paid. Maybe legitimate reasons like verification that they aren't just making it up I guess? If a fine is issued though then can't we simply assume the person reporting was being honest? Who benefits from a difficult collection process? A difficult payout process disincentivizes reporting, but only after you discover the hassle of it. So this could be a quick cash grab w/ dismal long term benefits once the word spreads. They should definitely fix that (assuming they want to).
- systemvoltage 5y ago
mbokinala 5y ago
https://archive.md/mCRxu https://archive.md/mCRxu
svilen_dobrev 5y ago
i've been waiting for such thing in our end of the world for what, decades? Still Dreaming.. Funny and sad. Buses that take passengers to and from airplane inside (most) airports, buzz idle for hours. They can be off, they can be electrical, naah. Another case, Buses that idle on their end station. Burn the damn fuel.
disambiguation 5y ago
As a car-less NYC resident .. I'm pissed that Texas started this bounty hunting trend. The government should not be socializing law enforcement, nor paying to pit citizens against each other. This is a dangerous and slippery slope. https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/china-encourages-citizens-to-report-critics-via-new-snitch-hotline-ahead-of-100th-birthday/ar-BB1fyKfg https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/china-encourages-citize...?
- moogleii 5y ago
  They're not enforcing it, they're simply incentivizing tip offs. Not much different than any other crime tip system the government has run. It's still up to the government to actually enforce it once the evidence has been submitted. If the agency wanted to, they could simply discard/ignore all footage.
  - omginternets 5y ago
    That's a distinction without a difference. Pitting citizen against citizen is not a healthy state of affairs.
    - ryandrake 5y ago
      Hate to break it to you, but the people are already against one another. This is just harnessing that energy in service of something that's at least productive. This is turning into the Decade Of Karen. Might as well motivate these nosy, belligerent people towards spotting actual lawbreaking rather than harassing barbecuers or minorities jogging in the park.
      - omginternets 5y ago
        >Hate to break it to you, but the people are already against one another. I'm aware. We need less of that, not more of it.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
dillondoyle 5y ago
Love it. Should also enforce parking. Great app idea to sell to cities. IDK maybe have to have two photos _ x _ minutes apart to show it's not just an uber eats for a few mins. photo ticket.
Too 5y ago
The job of the police is to prevent crime. Not to punish it. With this system, the offender will still keep the engine on even after someone has filmed them. Whereas a police officer asking them to turn it off would stop the offense on the spot. Only way this will actually help with emissions is if it becomes wide spread and well known enough, to act as an efficient deterrent.
WalterBright 5y ago
Even better, raise the tax on diesel. Fuels should taxed be based on their carbon content, anyway. It's the most efficient way to minimize CO2 pollution, as it is market based rather than bang-bang based. Diesel emits other pollutants, these should be taxed appropriately as well. P.S. Bang-bang refers to a valve that is always fully open or fully closed. I.e. it "bangs" into the stops. The math jargon would be a step function. Step functions make for very inefficient market incentives.
AllegedAlec 5y ago
> NYC wants all citizens to join NSB
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
ruddct 5y ago
Some context for those not in NYC: * Illegal parking and idling are out of control throughout the city. This has been the case for years, but it’s reached new heights since the pandemic. Trucks and cars often idle because they’re parked illegally. * The city DOT, for a variety of reasons, is reluctant to redesign streets to prevent this behavior (e.g. by adding loading zones) * The police are reluctant to ticket for this behavior, and frequently idle in their police cars throughout the city. If a bounty system feels desperate/problematic, it is. Our city agencies have failed to deal with this problem and people are pissed about it. My hope is that this program is a bandaid until larger structural issues with the DOT and NYPD are addressed. We’ll see.
- jmyeet 5y ago
  Loading zones would likely eliminate some free street parking and thus no one will do anything about it. Street parking is literally the third rail of NYC politics. Walk down any street in Greenwich Village and you'll see a plethora of $100k+ cars. We continue to subsidize parking for literal millionaires because Dave in Crown Heights is afraid if we get rid of street parking in Greenwich Village they're going to come for his parking space next and he can't afford paid parking. Why does Dave need a car at all living in Brooklyn? Good question... So we have people who park in the same place without moving for 11 years [1]. [1]: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/new-york-street-bookselle_n_931980 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/new-york-street-bookselle_n_9...
  - cyclotronical 5y ago
  - mancerayder 5y ago
    NYCHA residents also get parking, as you'll notice if you glance at their vast parking lots, and they do it with taxpayer subsidy. I'm not defending the vast street parking problem (although you underestimate how many of those cars parked in Greenwich Village are actually not residents there at all but traveling from outer boroughs or LI or NJ). But it's a little bit more nuanced than, rich people with all the cars. The amount of cars in Manhattan swells considerably during the week due to commuters, for one thing. You can observe the traffic patterns on Google Maps each direction on the FDR, Holland and Lincoln Tunnels, etc. Maybe resident parking permits should be considered.
iask 5y ago
Without mercy - Double parking should be next on the list. Especially in Queens.
mFixman 5y ago
I wish there was a similar system in London for cars parked in cycle lanes. Ths city's boroughs spent millions of pounds marking and building cycle lanes which are useless if there's no penalty for using them as a disruptive free parking spot. Having similar detection and penalties to cars parked in the middle of a road would improve traffic flow.
weitzj 5y ago
Been living as an exchange student in USA when Price per gallon was roughly $1. It was really weird for me seeing people leaving their car engine running with air conditioning on whilst going shopping for 30 minutes
mancerayder 5y ago
It's offensive to me that we're outsourcing police work to regular people and offering monetary rewards. Here's an idea. How about the cops who do nothing other than ticket illegal parking, do this work as well.
diebeforei485 5y ago
I don't see why Manhattan (or any place with good transit) has free street parking.
ryukafalz 5y ago
I wish Philly would let us do this for cars parked in bike lanes/on sidewalks/in crosswalks. It’s a real problem here, and makes it more dangerous to ride a bike or just walk around.
mxtihvb 5y ago
Now if only they give you a cut of the fine for reporting a car in the bike lane!
awiesenhofer 5y ago
I love NYC but every time someone in a show or movie proclaims it "the greatest city in the world" I have to chuckle a bit. But more seriously, why don't they just roll out dedicated loading zones like every other city in the world? Especially in Manhattan?
- baby 5y ago
- sagarm 5y ago
  That would require removing parking. The small minority of drivers in the city get VERY worked up about the possibility. It's a classic example of how policy changes with diffuse benefits and concentrated costs are hard to implement.
Txoko 5y ago
http://www.askanewyorker.com/phorum/read.php?34,74966,74966,quote=1 http://www.askanewyorker.com/phorum/read.php?34,74966,74966,...
Txoko 5y ago
License plates with the NYP designation are reserved for members of the press, I believe. I assume that designation enables law enforcement to identify news media personnel and may also entitle them certain rights while reporting. But does it also entitle them to the exclusive use of public parking spaces on city streets? I travel past the CBS Studios on West 57th each morning and signs are posted all around the building indicating parking is for NYP Plates Only. You have to wonder just who arranged that special break. And why. I mean, c'mon, can't Andy Rooney and his colleagues afford to park their cars in a garage? Just what have these people done to deserve a special public subsidy all their own? Sounds pretty generous to me. But why stop there? Why not go ahead and name the whole street after Andy and the gang? 57th Street could become Sixty Minutes Street. Although that could get confusing. So maybe we should keep the 57th Street signs and just add a little name underneath like Sixty Minutes Way. Someone said recently (when the city announced that 2 lanes of Broadway would be closed to traffic and turned into what? A MALL?) that under Mayor Bloomberg's administration New York City—all of it—is for sale. So with a huge revenue shortfall looming, why isn't NYC charging these people for all this privilege? Is it for lack of imagination? Or lack of parking spaces? Reply Quote VA Beltway Re: NYP Plates & Privileges August 07, 2008 08:12PM In my travels, only NY and NJ seems to have plates for the press. And I wonder about physician and dentist plates. Reply Quote LG Re: NYP Plates & Privileges December 09, 2015 09:34AM This is a super weird article. NYC parking and traffic is incredibly difficult to navigate, so people who think it is important to society that reporters have access to newsworthy events without having to worry about being ticketed or towed decided to give them special license plates. Depending on the administration in office, the rights those plates give them vary - under Bloomberg, they could only park in those NYP spots without getting ticketed; under other administrations, they've been able to double park or park on the sidewalk. The point of the NYP spaces near places where press vans often park is to give them a place to legally park without tying up traffic. Most of them are near places like the courthouses, the UN, Madison Square Garden where double-parking TV vans could cause a lot of traffic problems. It's maybe not an ideal solution, but I also can't think of a better one. I mean, c'mon, can't Andy Rooney > and his colleagues afford to park their cars in a > garage? Just what have these people done to > deserve a special public subsidy all their own? [dmv.ny.gov] The plates are for news gathering vehicles, like those big vans with the satellite dishes on the top, or the cars journalists drive to report from an off-site location. Andy Rooney might have talked himself into one so he can park near his office, but if he has, that's an abuse of the system, not a problem with the system itself. > Someone said recently (when the city announced > that 2 lanes of Broadway would be closed to > traffic and turned into what? A MALL?) ...a public plaza with cafe tables and seating. There are two definitions for the word "mall." In this case, it's the one that means "a usually public area often set with shade trees and designed as a promenade or as a pedestrian walk." [www.merriam-webster.com] > with a huge > revenue shortfall looming, why isn't NYC charging > these people for all this privilege? They are. There is a charge both to obtain and renew a press plate: [dmv.ny.gov] > under Mayor Bloomberg's administration New York > City—all of it—is for sale. Under Mayor Bloomberg's administration, there was a huge crackdown on illegal parking, and since then, members of the press have only been allowed to park in the special designated spots. It's certainly not the case that Big Media somehow bribed the Bloomberg administration for special privileges. They are currently lobbying the DiBlasio administration to once again allow them immunity from ticketing when parked in ways that would otherwise be illegal, but that doesn't seem to be your concern. All this took me about two minutes of googling to figure out. Try it yourself next time. Sincerely, A New Yorker Reply Quote Agnes C Re: NYP Plates & Privileges January 30, 2017 08:31AM NYP plates are abused everywhere in the city. An inquirer was correct: What should these people have free parking at work? And even if they are out, "gathering a story," they are more often than not in a news mobile with cameras, etc. NYP 5838 has been abusing parking in my area all the time - always overnight. Really? So why should they get a garage. Who wouldn't like to have overnight parking and not get a ticket or towed in the morning? This is a real abuse. Another one if the DDS plates - dentist on housecalls? Are you serious. Reply Quote Newer Topic Older Topic Print View RSS A word you have used in your post has been banned from use. Please use a different word or contact the forum administrators.

334 points by robszumski 5y ago

Do one for when people double-park in main arteries during rush hour. I don't even need a cut, I'll be a willing narc.

> Mr. Slapikas said he pulled in $64,000 in rewards in 2021 for simply paying attention on his daily walks for exercise: “I would expect to get three a day without even looking.” That’s almost 10% of the total fines paid out last year, according to the article. I wonder what the distribution of payouts looks like. I assume it’s a small number of people collecting the bulk of the fines. Regardless, it looks like it’s working. Idling cars may not be producing the bulk of emissions, but it’s one of the easiest places to start cutting as it’s otherwise wasted fuel and emissions.

legobmw99 5y ago
Further down it mentions that “20 or so” people submit 85% of complaints
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  I suspect that’s about to jump up.
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    The article also says the city does not make getting the payout easy and it requires many hours of follow up to maybe get paid.
    - wpietri 5y ago
      I look forward to some startup automating the steps and taking a slice.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - notreallyserio 5y ago
        "It's like Uber but for tattling!" I kid, I'm down for this sort of citizen engagement when it comes to externalities.
        kingcharles 5y ago
        We can call it: https://www.tatler.com/ https://www.tatler.com/
        pawelmurias 5y ago
        stich.es?
        black_puppydog 5y ago
        Thanks for this look into a bizarro world. :)
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
        allisdust 5y ago
        You mean snitch.ai.of course. Get your own personalised snitches to avoid stitches.
        FooBarBizBazz 5y ago
        It's like the Texas approach to abortion. The whole thing just doesn't feel right. I don't care if, in this particular case, the cause is not-terrible (preventing pollution). There's just something "off" about the enforcement mechanism. Serious crimes? Sure: Do your civic duty; call the police. But this? Mind your own business. It feels vaguely East-German.
  - hackernewds 5y ago
    This is why labor markets are so tight /s
mizzao 5y ago
Classic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_law distribution, isn't it!?
- TheSpiceIsLife 5y ago
  Yep yep. Pareto Distribution: 20% of the Y cause 80% of the Z https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_distribution https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_distribution
technobabbler 5y ago
Abortions in Texas, guns in California, tickets in NYC... guess vigilante profiteering is the new legislative norm? Get citizens to snitch on each other to fill your budget shortfalls.
- tantalor 5y ago
  False analogy. The Texas thing is a (idiotic) workaround for the fact that the state can't do anything about it.
  - technobabbler 5y ago
    Explain?
    - YawningAngel 5y ago
      It would not be legal for the state of Texas to do what it is encouraging private citizens to do in its stead
      - technobabbler 5y ago
        The potentially illegal/unconstitutional part of it is the prevention of abortions. Encouraging citizens to bounty hunt each other... that's the novelty that the other states are copying. These creepy "see something, say something" laws turn neighbor against neighbor, criminalizing behavior that would otherwise be considered acceptable, and turn passive observers into active enforcers for the sake of profit.
        magicalist 5y ago
        > criminalizing behavior that would otherwise be considered acceptable Again, these situations are not comparable. Idling commercial vehicles are already disallowed, this program literally gives a cut of the fine the government is going to impose.
antattack 5y ago
Someone is helping enforcing laws and they don't have a qualified immunity. Seems like a step in the right direction. Of course, based on what happened in GA, there's a limit to what regular citizens can be entrusted with.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

duskwuff 5y ago

The article mentions that reporters are required to do their own research to determine if a business is a repeat offender. I wonder if there's an opportunity for a service to act as a clearinghouse for these reports? :)

notatoad 5y ago
that was my first thought too, but NYC already makes it pretty easy to look up traffic violations by licence plate number. if idling violations are included here, there's not much one could add to that. https://nycserv.nyc.gov/NYCServWeb/PVO_Search.jsp https://nycserv.nyc.gov/NYCServWeb/PVO_Search.jsp

ericbarrett 5y ago

One frosty, completely still morning in Brooklyn, a white panel truck had been idling on our corner for 20 minutes. I walked out to find diesel fumes hanging, head-high, like some kind of haunted house fog, for a block in every direction. I fully support this law, citizen reporting and all—diesel soot kills. Turn your engine off.

slenk 5y ago
Will you at least acknowledge this trend of citizens reporting citizens is a dangerous trend?
- sa46 5y ago
  I suspect the overwhelming majority of crime reporting is citizens reporting other citizens, i.e. calling 911.
  - mobiclick 5y ago
    The problem here is offering monetary incentives. Purposefully or not, I'm sure judges would hand out a lot more fines if they got a cut out of it.
    - notch656a 5y ago
      I can't wait until all the idling police officers, political figures, and the very people collecting the fines get drained dry by people calling. They want people to rat out people idling, lets start with government officials. Every single one of them should be ratted out at every possible opportunity before we out the general populace.
  - slenk 5y ago
    As mentioned below, its the monetary incentive that bothers me. I wasn't very clear, my bad.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

imapeopleperson 5y ago

Ice cream trucks are easy targets. Those jerks will park next to a playground while their diesel fumes blanket the area.

jimmaswell 5y ago
This is satire, right?
- CurrentB 5y ago
  Do you not believe they don't turn off their engine, or think they should be entitled to keep it running?
  - jimmaswell 5y ago
    They should be entitled to keep it running. It's completely blown out of proportion.
    - sonicggg 5y ago
      Why would they be above the law? Are they considered an emergency vehicle?
    - Gigachad 5y ago
      It's not blown out of proportion. Diesel and just all combustion in general is shaping up to be the next asbestos/lead. It's extremely clear how dangerous these fumes are but we have been desensitized in to accepting it.
      - jimmaswell 5y ago
        Source on diesel being equally dangerous as chronic lead or asbestos exposure?
        foxes 5y ago

epa 5y ago

Now lets see NYC Idle Coin mining reward for successful report.

lr4444lr 5y ago

Thr meter maids in NYC were brought under the NYPD because they used to be routinely beaten up when they were a civilian agency issuing people tickets. Now I don't condone violence, but this just sounds really risky. A lot of these drivers may be forced to eat some or all of the fine, and when they see some average joe shmo playing tattletale on them, I'd expect an uncomfortably large number of them to get physical. I do not think it's wise of NYC gov. to promote this sort of thing.

asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
You don't tell them you're tattling. The average truck is passed by hundreds or thousands of pedestrians per day. How is the driver going to know which one phoned him or her in?
- lr4444lr 5y ago
  Because you have to stand there for multiple minutes recording. Truckers will learn how to spot them.
  - pooper 5y ago
    > According to the article, you have to record a three minute long video which clearly shows the vehicle owner and captures the sound of the engine. > Because you have to stand there for multiple minutes recording. Truckers will learn how to spot them. I wonder... can you record a three minute video of a New York Police Department patrol car? If so, who pays for it?
    - nathancahill 5y ago
      Congratulations, you've just unlocked infinite money. But also infinite debt. So it's a double-edged sword I guess?
    - Wowfunhappy 5y ago
      > If so, who pays for it? Taxpayers.

Someone1234 5y ago

I know this is about commercial vehicles, but on a personal note I really wish noncommercial vehicles were far better in accessory mode. Specifically it is common that either the hot, cold, or both HVAC won't function while the engine is off and the vehicle in accessory mode often leaving people idling in high or low weather scenarios (or simply just melting ice on your windshields). I feel like there's far too much focus spent on chastising the sinners and not nearly enough effect spent creating vehicles where the common sense action is not to need to idle. Even hybrids may run their gas engines purely for the HVAC, we have a Prius and depending on the temperate and fan speed, it can kick on the engine even with full hybrid battery. Let me ask this: Where is the article or city report that talks to the commercial drivers and seeks insight into WHY they're idling? Unreasonable time constraints? Cabin temp? Company policies? Let's dig into that. This "burn the witch" stuff never works long term, and we have to seek to make non-idling the rational choice not the enforced one. It minds me a lot of these "cut speeding initiatives." They work, while they're going on, but success has been seen longer term by just re-designing roads to communicate the safe speed (e.g. planting trees, pinchpoints, et al[0]). [0] https://nacto.org/publication/urban-street-design-guide/design-controls/design-speed/speed-reduction-mechanisms/ https://nacto.org/publication/urban-street-design-guide/desi...

ars 5y ago
Non-diesel vehicles don't pollute much if at all while idling. If we could get rid of diesel from commercial vehicles air quality would dramatically improve.
- amluto 5y ago
  Only when warm. Many modern gasoline burning vehicles are extremely stinky when cold. As I understand it, they deliberately run rich when first started to help heat up the catalytic converter, and I wonder if this is a case of optimizing for the wrong thing. EVs are, of course, emission-free when idle. (Although, oddly, at least some Teslas still can’t open or close their windows when in the off-ish state.)
  - 5y ago

mdmglr 5y ago

How are these complaints verified and how does the city know multiple complaints are not being made with the same video? Is the fine per occurrence? How are videos checked for evidence of editing?

semiquaver 5y ago
The article says that there is a staff of 14 verifying the videos. The fines are levied through a judicial system similar to traffic tickets, so the check on these potential abuses is for the accused to offer evidence to the contrary. For example, if they were already fined for a violation occurring at a specific time that would be an excellent defense against a subsequent ticket.
- asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
  Fourteen people . . . incredible. I reckon the program is paying for itself but it seems surprising that the flow of complaints is high enough to keep a team that large busy.
  - brewdad 5y ago
    This is New York City, not Kansas City. I'm sure there are more than enough complaints.
    - jaclaz 5y ago
      How much time does it take to check the video/produce the related paperwork? 14 people normal hours/normal weekdays are roughly 14*1800=25,200 hours/year. The complaints, according to the article, are 12,000 per year. That makes it roughly 2 hours/complaint. At first sight it doesn't sound like the clerks are overworked.

stefan_ 5y ago

Sounds like someone needs to make an app that takes care of the paperwork with the city for a cut of the cut.

clearcoat 5y ago
Exactly what I was thinking, most of NYC data is accessible via a pretty decent API, I wonder if it includes what's needed here.

clearcoat 5y ago

Wow, this is fantastic. I like to work on my balcony, but there are constantly trucks parking below, with poorly maintained engines left to idle for hours a day, spewing fumes that leave a layer of grime coating everything (and send me back inside).

notatoad 5y ago
sounds like you could make a decent bit of money by installing a permanently-running camera pointed at the road.
- Gigachad 5y ago
  I'd let the government install a camera on my balcony pointing at the road for free if it meant dealing with drivers.

technothrasher 5y ago

Oooh, I wish they did this in MA. I could make tons of money just in the pickup line at my kid's school alone. We've got an anti-idling law here in MA, but I don't think I've ever heard of anybody getting a ticket, and most folks aren't even aware of the law.

aaron695 5y ago

ilikeatari 5y ago

How about automatic idle mitigation systems? Just automate it on truck level. Cost is low and at scale would be very minimal. Also if you are worried about ambient cab temp, you should not be too worried.

ilikeatari 5y ago
To clarify this tech already exists.
clearcoat 5y ago
I mean these trucks are pretty much universally in absolutely terribly shape and not really maintained.

martyvis 5y ago

Are a lot of these trucks refrigerated? Are they idling simply because the engine is the primary power source that keeps the refrigeration unit running? My most recent Subaru has automatic idle stop/start intended to reduce idling waiting at traffic lights but makes sure cabin AC, battery levels etc aren't compromised.

scrose 5y ago
Trucks that need the engine running for refrigeration are exempt from this. I’d wager the vast majority of trucks doing deliveries / idling in NYC are not carrying material that needs to be refrigerated, and they’re usually clearly labeled on the outside.

arealaccount 5y ago

Why do these trucks idle? Seems like an unnecessary expense for their business

n8ta 5y ago
Do you turn your car off when you are waiting outside a house to pick someone up? Most people don't. They just aren't thinking about it.
- Gigachad 5y ago
  Probably depends on how expensive the fuel in the area is. Most people I know would certainly turn it off since leaving it idle while waiting means literal dollars worth of fuel being burned.
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  I would think the bigger reason is for heat/air conditioning when it is too hot or cold outside.
  - skinnymuch 5y ago
    Neither are needed 95%+ of the time when the time period is waiting for someone outside their house.
- raldi 5y ago
  Yes, of course. You don't? Why not?
  - n8ta 5y ago
    Maybe you want the radio going? Maybe you want your music to stay on? Lots of reasons people would unthinkingly not do this. My goal was to point out that for many this is an unconscious decision.
    - raldi 5y ago

5ESS 5y ago

how long before an AI deepfake tool comes out for making fake videos? (And costing innocent truck owners big $?) this is a disaster waiting to happen.

Gigachad 5y ago
Just make the penalty for fraud very significant and award the truck drivers half if they can prove fraud happened (Dashcam video or something similar). Combined with city CCTV it should be pretty possible to work out who was lying in the case of a dispute.
- kadoban 5y ago
  I'm sure making a false report for money is _already_ very illegal.
Buldak 5y ago
I don't know, if you're worried about that sort of thing I'd think there's a very long list of exploits that should concern you more than this quirky bounty program.
woodruffw 5y ago
Given the domain (a highly surveilled city, drivers making documented stops, a high standard of evidence) there is very little room for fraud here.
raldi 5y ago
Never, for like a dozen reasons

sicromoft 5y ago

https://archive.is/5seDV https://archive.is/5seDV

eyelidlessness 5y ago

> more than 12,000 last year That… doesn’t seem like a large number? It’s 1,000 per month. This could happen once a day and be four blocks away each time. I see multiple trucks parked and idling daily in the same few blocks of a residential area of Seattle. If this is some kind of money making scheme, sure seems like they’re being really lazy about it and leaving money on the table.

woodruffw 5y ago
It's a very small number, unfortunately -- infractions like these are among the cities lowest priorities, despite their outsized impact on quality of life. This isn't the only virtuous revenue stream that the city throws away: it's an open secret that parking violations are basically unenforced for companies, and that the city will happily agree to cents on the dollar once you've racked up a few thousand violations.

FpUser 5y ago

>"This is a scene from the city’s benign-sounding but often raucous Citizens Air Complaint Program, a public health campaign that invites — and pays — people to report trucks that are parked and idling for more than three minutes, or one minute if outside a school. Those who report collect 25 percent of any fine against a truck by submitting a video just over 3 minutes in length that shows the engine is running and the name of the company on the door" The idea of people ratting on each other like this somehow does not inspire me. Doing it for free in egregious cases is ok in my book but the former in my view just plainly sucks.

ip26 5y ago
How do you feel about whistleblower compensation from the SEC?
- FpUser 5y ago
  Not sure. I mean I am all for whistleblowing. Have no strong opinion about compensation in this manner. Ratting on people is different. Sure if I see an actual crime (or at least what constitute one in my eyes) I'll report. But report for example my neighbor for building "illegal" shed - I think it'll hurt my inner integrity too much.
  - woodruffw 5y ago
    To be clear: SEC "whistleblowers" are rats in the colloquial sense: they come from inside the companies themselves, and report malfeasance to the SEC in exchange for a cut of the penalties. Similar, what we're talking about is an actual crime in NYC. It's illegal, full stop, to idle a commercial vehicle for more than 3 minutes. You might not want that to be the law, but that's a very difference stance vs. "it's not an actual crime."
    - FpUser 5y ago
      >"To be clear: SEC "whistleblowers" are rats in the colloquial sense: they come from inside the companies themselves, and report malfeasance to the SEC in exchange for a cut of the penalties." Put it this way. I'll deal with it when I see it. For now this is too abstract for me. In any ways if they only do it because they get rat money I am not very fond of it. >"Similar, what we're talking about is an actual crime in NYC" And it is a crime to be gay in Barbados. So fucking what? If I was in jury I would go for nullification right away and fuck this law. I have my own moral compass and am trying to follow it in how I perceive other humans.

gnicholas 5y ago

> The reporters are also responsible for requesting their rewards months later, once they have learned that a fine was paid. The city does not pay the reporters automatically. This is super lousy.

giantg2 5y ago
It's surprising the government pays them at all. I would bot be shocked if they decide to lower the reward after seeing the amounts some people made.
MaceOutWindu 5y ago
I wonder what the conversion rate on this is. How many people forget and move on with their lives? How many are that focused on the bag?

nayuki 5y ago

According to the article, the truck drivers act all indignant that they are not allowed to idle their trucks and that citizens can report that behavior and cause fines to be issued. Did these people forget that operating a motor vehicle is a responsibility and privilege, not an unlimited right, that their behavior has consequences for the general public (externalities like air pollution, collisions), and that they are required to follow the law when operating their vehicle?

nullc 5y ago
> Did these people forget that operating a motor vehicle is a responsibility and privilege, not an unlimited right, that their behavior has consequences for the general public (externalities like air pollution, collisions), and that they are required to follow the law when operating their vehicle? So ... they're just like 90% of the posters in any HN thread where driving in excess of the speed limit on the highway is discussed then?
- nayuki 5y ago
  The modern interpretation is that reducing speed limits by writing a number on a sign is much less effective than designing the road to feel more dangerous - narrower lanes, more turns, more obstacles nearby, etc.
hackernewds 5y ago
The protest makes sense if the law is not worthy of common sense. The law is not a great signal for morality or ethics -- see as an extreme example: segregation
worewood 5y ago
> operating a motor vehicle is a responsability and privilege Responsability yes, but a privilege? If public transport were abundant and pervasive everywhere in the world that would be true. Freedom of movement is a basic right and in a lot of places, you can not enjoy that right unless you have a car.
- 5y ago

_aleph2c_ 5y ago

I don't like diesel fumes either, but I'm surprised to see so many Americans signing up for an informant society. There are other ways to solve this problem.

frakkingcylons 5y ago
Yeah because the Stasi were real stickers for the environment.
morcheeba 5y ago
What are your other ways?
tcbasche 5y ago
I suppose there's not many other ways to incentivise people in America other than offering them money. Seems like simply informing for the overall benefit of society wouldn't be incentive enough ...
- systemvoltage 5y ago
  The problem is about how it is enforced. Vigilante-type crowd sourcing to enforce laws isn't the right way to go about this.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > Vigilante-type crowd sourcing ...is a contradiction in terms. People who report things to the responsible authorities rather than taking violent enforcement action themselves are engaging in exactly the behavior vigilanteism is defined in opposition to.
    - systemvoltage 5y ago
      Do you really think citizens policing each other is a good way to enforce laws? This is going to get ugly real fast. It creates division and disharmony in a community. No wonder people are getting angry about this. Read history.

charlieyu1 5y ago

mjmahone17 5y ago
How is this any different from a reward for information leading to someone’s arrest?
kyawzazaw 5y ago
Might I introduce you to the existing system of whistleblowers being rewarded, and pleas in the justice system?
- giantg2 5y ago
  Whistleblowers get a cut of the fine? Or are they just being made whole again?
  - woodruffw 5y ago
    It depends on the incentive structure, but the SEC's whistleblower program is a notable example of reporters being given a percentage of the fine.
    - giantg2 5y ago
      I work at an SEC regulated place and hate my job. I'll keep this in mind!
  - shagie 5y ago
    https://www.irs.gov/compliance/whistleblower-office https://www.irs.gov/compliance/whistleblower-office > The IRS Whistleblower Office pays monetary awards to eligible individuals whose information is used by the IRS. The award percentage depends on several factors, but generally falls between 15 and 30 percent of the proceeds collected and attributable to the whistleblower's information. Awards can only be issued once a final determination can be made, and as such, award payments cannot be made until the taxpayer has exhausted all appeal rights and the taxpayer no longer can file a claim for refund or otherwise seek to recover the proceeds from the government. Know someone with $100k of unpaid taxes? That's a $15k - $30k payout. (edit) The report for 2020 - https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p5241.pdf https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p5241.pdf In 2020 they had 593 claims, 169 awards. They collected $472M and paid out $86M (18.3%). This is down from 2018 where $1.4B was collected, and $312M payouts where given.

gxt 5y ago

Lol. This is 100% a money laundering scheme.

RcouF1uZ4gsC 5y ago

I think this provides an opportunity for an app to remind drivers to turn their vehicle off and then on every 2 1/2 minutes to avoid the fine.

oceanplexian 5y ago

I feel like this is yet another example of the insane entitlement of New Yorkers. Keep in mind this a city that has a rampant violent crime problem, incredible garbage, wealth inequality, and theft problems and NYT uses some of the worlds most valuable advertising space to push a story about idling vehicles? This is why there is such a disconnect between people who live in the rest of the USA and those who live in a few select cities on the coasts. For those who live in the bubble and wonder “Why don’t people identify with my political views” this is a great example.

gutitout 5y ago
The people who rule also live in this city. Why is there nothing being done about the crime, garbage and injustice?
presentation 5y ago
It’s not like every article in the New York Times has to be about violent crime, garbage, inequality and theft. They publish very many articles all the time! And society has very many problems, big and small! I guess you and the rest of the upset heartland commoners can subscribe to “New York Crime, Garbage, Inequality, and Theft Weekly” if other content bugs you so badly.
rottencupcakes 5y ago
And Texas uses similar tactics to get people to report on their neighbor's abotions: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/09/us/abortion-law-regulations-texas.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/09/us/abortion-law-regulatio... Maybe people should realize that everybody spying and reporting their neighbor is a dark road, more in line with the Gestapo and Eastern Bloc countries than the freedom we claim to love in America.
- giantg2 5y ago
  I think the abortion one is a civil law (which has not be seen before). I believe the idling law is criminal (citation). Most states have a process already for submitting a private criminal complaint, just without the fine sharing. We complain about police states and lack of training/oversight, yet we want to turn everyone into this police function and with no training?

memish 5y ago

The city figured out how to turn citizens into gig workers.

tormock 5y ago

So all citizens are for-hire police officers... ok.

ladberg 5y ago

As someone who will soon be moving into a below ground-level apartment in Manhattan, this makes me happy!

fmakunbound 5y ago

Turning into a nation of snitches with this and the Texas bullshit law and California’s ironic equivalent.

draw_down 5y ago
vmception 5y ago
ha, more like people just noticed, standing in this society has always been a game of reading comprehension or affording a lawyer that has done so already. there are several sectors where non-state actors are deputized to enforce compliance of private citizens, for decades at least. its more interesting to me that someone just noticed and cared enough to apply it to other areas of life, and that everyone else just noticed this method will have durable consensus in our constitutional framework. so I guess... surprise?

gernb 5y ago

I'm sure I'd live to regret this idea but I really wish I could send video of other vehicles breaking the law to some government agency and have them fine the drivers of those cars. And, I don't really care they don't know who the driver is. Fine the owner of the car and then the owner can decide if they trust the other people to drive the car. I know that I'd probably get some tickets myself but my belief is that we'd be safer overall if more people obeyed the traffic laws and that they would obey them if they were likely to get caught. Also, I don't need a cut of the fines.

fredophile 5y ago
You could start a Twitter account like this one: https://mobile.twitter.com/placardabuse https://mobile.twitter.com/placardabuse
_Wintermute 5y ago
This is becoming relatively common in the UK. Lots of cyclists film their commutes due to aggressive drivers, and report dangerous driving by uploading a video to an online portal.

zxcvbn4038 5y ago

This is how NYC raises money - when the revenue dips they send out the sidewalk inspectors, health inspectors, tow trucks, etc. and write up a bunch of fines. Most restaurants have a way to signal the kitchen that an inspector has arrived and they'll quickly toss everything they are cooking into the garbage because it's cheaper than getting a fine. Former mayor Bloomberg's planned crack down on soda drinks was more about issuing fines for not serving precisely 8oz of liquid - though the next mayor dropped it and all the special order measuring cups for the health inspectors went to a warehouse. I've witnessed a fleets of NYPD tow trucks clearing out streets of UPS and Fedex trucks. They know what time the delivery companies hit various parts of town and they are ready for them. Recently the New York fire inspectors have started fining landlords for debris in the hallways (debris = amazon deliveries left at the door). So now if the delivery comes to the door you have to get it before the building super throws it away to save the landlord from being fined, if it gets left by the mailbox then the food delivery people steal it on their way out. No winning. About ten years ago there was a good samaritan going around feeding parking meters to keep people from being fined. He was arrested and taken to jail. They let him go without charges but not before he spent the weekend - because the person who processes releases doesn't work on weekends they said. I think he sued and ended up settling out of court.

rapind 5y ago
This is a really good point. You always need to look at incentives. It's OK for both society and politicians to benefit, but you should always dig a little deeper. Someone else in this thread pointed out "the city does not make getting the payout easy and it requires many hours of follow up to maybe get paid." So now we should be at least a bit cynical, and start asking questions about why it's so difficult to get paid. Maybe legitimate reasons like verification that they aren't just making it up I guess? If a fine is issued though then can't we simply assume the person reporting was being honest? Who benefits from a difficult collection process? A difficult payout process disincentivizes reporting, but only after you discover the hassle of it. So this could be a quick cash grab w/ dismal long term benefits once the word spreads. They should definitely fix that (assuming they want to).
systemvoltage 5y ago

mbokinala 5y ago

https://archive.md/mCRxu https://archive.md/mCRxu

svilen_dobrev 5y ago

i've been waiting for such thing in our end of the world for what, decades? Still Dreaming.. Funny and sad. Buses that take passengers to and from airplane inside (most) airports, buzz idle for hours. They can be off, they can be electrical, naah. Another case, Buses that idle on their end station. Burn the damn fuel.

disambiguation 5y ago

As a car-less NYC resident .. I'm pissed that Texas started this bounty hunting trend. The government should not be socializing law enforcement, nor paying to pit citizens against each other. This is a dangerous and slippery slope. https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/china-encourages-citizens-to-report-critics-via-new-snitch-hotline-ahead-of-100th-birthday/ar-BB1fyKfg https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/china-encourages-citize...?

moogleii 5y ago
They're not enforcing it, they're simply incentivizing tip offs. Not much different than any other crime tip system the government has run. It's still up to the government to actually enforce it once the evidence has been submitted. If the agency wanted to, they could simply discard/ignore all footage.
- omginternets 5y ago
  That's a distinction without a difference. Pitting citizen against citizen is not a healthy state of affairs.
  - ryandrake 5y ago
    Hate to break it to you, but the people are already against one another. This is just harnessing that energy in service of something that's at least productive. This is turning into the Decade Of Karen. Might as well motivate these nosy, belligerent people towards spotting actual lawbreaking rather than harassing barbecuers or minorities jogging in the park.
    - omginternets 5y ago
      >Hate to break it to you, but the people are already against one another. I'm aware. We need less of that, not more of it.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]

dillondoyle 5y ago

Love it. Should also enforce parking. Great app idea to sell to cities. IDK maybe have to have two photos _ x _ minutes apart to show it's not just an uber eats for a few mins. photo ticket.

Too 5y ago

The job of the police is to prevent crime. Not to punish it. With this system, the offender will still keep the engine on even after someone has filmed them. Whereas a police officer asking them to turn it off would stop the offense on the spot. Only way this will actually help with emissions is if it becomes wide spread and well known enough, to act as an efficient deterrent.

WalterBright 5y ago

Even better, raise the tax on diesel. Fuels should taxed be based on their carbon content, anyway. It's the most efficient way to minimize CO2 pollution, as it is market based rather than bang-bang based. Diesel emits other pollutants, these should be taxed appropriately as well. P.S. Bang-bang refers to a valve that is always fully open or fully closed. I.e. it "bangs" into the stops. The math jargon would be a step function. Step functions make for very inefficient market incentives.

AllegedAlec 5y ago

> NYC wants all citizens to join NSB

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

ruddct 5y ago

Some context for those not in NYC: * Illegal parking and idling are out of control throughout the city. This has been the case for years, but it’s reached new heights since the pandemic. Trucks and cars often idle because they’re parked illegally. * The city DOT, for a variety of reasons, is reluctant to redesign streets to prevent this behavior (e.g. by adding loading zones) * The police are reluctant to ticket for this behavior, and frequently idle in their police cars throughout the city. If a bounty system feels desperate/problematic, it is. Our city agencies have failed to deal with this problem and people are pissed about it. My hope is that this program is a bandaid until larger structural issues with the DOT and NYPD are addressed. We’ll see.

jmyeet 5y ago
Loading zones would likely eliminate some free street parking and thus no one will do anything about it. Street parking is literally the third rail of NYC politics. Walk down any street in Greenwich Village and you'll see a plethora of $100k+ cars. We continue to subsidize parking for literal millionaires because Dave in Crown Heights is afraid if we get rid of street parking in Greenwich Village they're going to come for his parking space next and he can't afford paid parking. Why does Dave need a car at all living in Brooklyn? Good question... So we have people who park in the same place without moving for 11 years [1]. [1]: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/new-york-street-bookselle_n_931980 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/new-york-street-bookselle_n_9...
- cyclotronical 5y ago
- mancerayder 5y ago
  NYCHA residents also get parking, as you'll notice if you glance at their vast parking lots, and they do it with taxpayer subsidy. I'm not defending the vast street parking problem (although you underestimate how many of those cars parked in Greenwich Village are actually not residents there at all but traveling from outer boroughs or LI or NJ). But it's a little bit more nuanced than, rich people with all the cars. The amount of cars in Manhattan swells considerably during the week due to commuters, for one thing. You can observe the traffic patterns on Google Maps each direction on the FDR, Holland and Lincoln Tunnels, etc. Maybe resident parking permits should be considered.

iask 5y ago

Without mercy - Double parking should be next on the list. Especially in Queens.

mFixman 5y ago

I wish there was a similar system in London for cars parked in cycle lanes. Ths city's boroughs spent millions of pounds marking and building cycle lanes which are useless if there's no penalty for using them as a disruptive free parking spot. Having similar detection and penalties to cars parked in the middle of a road would improve traffic flow.

weitzj 5y ago

Been living as an exchange student in USA when Price per gallon was roughly $1. It was really weird for me seeing people leaving their car engine running with air conditioning on whilst going shopping for 30 minutes

mancerayder 5y ago

It's offensive to me that we're outsourcing police work to regular people and offering monetary rewards. Here's an idea. How about the cops who do nothing other than ticket illegal parking, do this work as well.

diebeforei485 5y ago

I don't see why Manhattan (or any place with good transit) has free street parking.

ryukafalz 5y ago

I wish Philly would let us do this for cars parked in bike lanes/on sidewalks/in crosswalks. It’s a real problem here, and makes it more dangerous to ride a bike or just walk around.

mxtihvb 5y ago

Now if only they give you a cut of the fine for reporting a car in the bike lane!

awiesenhofer 5y ago

I love NYC but every time someone in a show or movie proclaims it "the greatest city in the world" I have to chuckle a bit. But more seriously, why don't they just roll out dedicated loading zones like every other city in the world? Especially in Manhattan?

baby 5y ago
sagarm 5y ago
That would require removing parking. The small minority of drivers in the city get VERY worked up about the possibility. It's a classic example of how policy changes with diffuse benefits and concentrated costs are hard to implement.

Txoko 5y ago

http://www.askanewyorker.com/phorum/read.php?34,74966,74966,quote=1 http://www.askanewyorker.com/phorum/read.php?34,74966,74966,...

Txoko 5y ago

License plates with the NYP designation are reserved for members of the press, I believe. I assume that designation enables law enforcement to identify news media personnel and may also entitle them certain rights while reporting. But does it also entitle them to the exclusive use of public parking spaces on city streets? I travel past the CBS Studios on West 57th each morning and signs are posted all around the building indicating parking is for NYP Plates Only. You have to wonder just who arranged that special break. And why. I mean, c'mon, can't Andy Rooney and his colleagues afford to park their cars in a garage? Just what have these people done to deserve a special public subsidy all their own? Sounds pretty generous to me. But why stop there? Why not go ahead and name the whole street after Andy and the gang? 57th Street could become Sixty Minutes Street. Although that could get confusing. So maybe we should keep the 57th Street signs and just add a little name underneath like Sixty Minutes Way. Someone said recently (when the city announced that 2 lanes of Broadway would be closed to traffic and turned into what? A MALL?) that under Mayor Bloomberg's administration New York City—all of it—is for sale. So with a huge revenue shortfall looming, why isn't NYC charging these people for all this privilege? Is it for lack of imagination? Or lack of parking spaces? Reply Quote VA Beltway Re: NYP Plates & Privileges August 07, 2008 08:12PM In my travels, only NY and NJ seems to have plates for the press. And I wonder about physician and dentist plates. Reply Quote LG Re: NYP Plates & Privileges December 09, 2015 09:34AM This is a super weird article. NYC parking and traffic is incredibly difficult to navigate, so people who think it is important to society that reporters have access to newsworthy events without having to worry about being ticketed or towed decided to give them special license plates. Depending on the administration in office, the rights those plates give them vary - under Bloomberg, they could only park in those NYP spots without getting ticketed; under other administrations, they've been able to double park or park on the sidewalk. The point of the NYP spaces near places where press vans often park is to give them a place to legally park without tying up traffic. Most of them are near places like the courthouses, the UN, Madison Square Garden where double-parking TV vans could cause a lot of traffic problems. It's maybe not an ideal solution, but I also can't think of a better one. I mean, c'mon, can't Andy Rooney > and his colleagues afford to park their cars in a > garage? Just what have these people done to > deserve a special public subsidy all their own? [dmv.ny.gov] The plates are for news gathering vehicles, like those big vans with the satellite dishes on the top, or the cars journalists drive to report from an off-site location. Andy Rooney might have talked himself into one so he can park near his office, but if he has, that's an abuse of the system, not a problem with the system itself. > Someone said recently (when the city announced > that 2 lanes of Broadway would be closed to > traffic and turned into what? A MALL?) ...a public plaza with cafe tables and seating. There are two definitions for the word "mall." In this case, it's the one that means "a usually public area often set with shade trees and designed as a promenade or as a pedestrian walk." [www.merriam-webster.com] > with a huge > revenue shortfall looming, why isn't NYC charging > these people for all this privilege? They are. There is a charge both to obtain and renew a press plate: [dmv.ny.gov] > under Mayor Bloomberg's administration New York > City—all of it—is for sale. Under Mayor Bloomberg's administration, there was a huge crackdown on illegal parking, and since then, members of the press have only been allowed to park in the special designated spots. It's certainly not the case that Big Media somehow bribed the Bloomberg administration for special privileges. They are currently lobbying the DiBlasio administration to once again allow them immunity from ticketing when parked in ways that would otherwise be illegal, but that doesn't seem to be your concern. All this took me about two minutes of googling to figure out. Try it yourself next time. Sincerely, A New Yorker Reply Quote Agnes C Re: NYP Plates & Privileges January 30, 2017 08:31AM NYP plates are abused everywhere in the city. An inquirer was correct: What should these people have free parking at work? And even if they are out, "gathering a story," they are more often than not in a news mobile with cameras, etc. NYP 5838 has been abusing parking in my area all the time - always overnight. Really? So why should they get a garage. Who wouldn't like to have overnight parking and not get a ticket or towed in the morning? This is a real abuse. Another one if the DDS plates - dentist on housecalls? Are you serious. Reply Quote Newer Topic Older Topic Print View RSS A word you have used in your post has been banned from use. Please use a different word or contact the forum administrators.