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I worked at Microsoft around the time of the Windows Vista disaster, and one of the big lessons that came out of that era was solve distractions, not discoverab

I worked at Microsoft around the time of the Windows Vista disaster, and one of the big lessons that came out of that era was solve distractions, not discoverability. Windows and other Microsoft products tried to make features (and products) "discoverable" by pushing them on you with alerts and banners, but the result, when multiplied by dozens of product teams and PMs, was an overall user experience that was noisy and unpleasant. Looks like a new generation of engineers and designers is ready to learn this lesson the hard way again!

tomjen3 5y ago
I wished a lot more companies would learn that lesson. It is such a pain when you have to use some software and then you get the popups about new features. The features may be brilliant, but right now I don't care. I am doing something. Yet somehow PMs never realize that if they let the features be visible in the corner, I would click on them in 10 seconds when I am done with what I am doing and would actually want to read them.
- antisthenes 5y ago
  Looking at you, Google Maps. No, I don't need an "easier way to do X, Y" or whatever else your obtuse program manager decided would get them a promotion. I'm operating a 2-ton vehicle in traffic, so THE EASIER WAY would be to not obscure 50% of my phone screen, making me take eyes away from the road for an extra 2-3 seconds. Hint for anyone reading this at google - it's in the name. Maps. That's all I want from your app, UNLESS I am specifically searching for Food/Hotels/Groceries. Also, please stop doing a UI redesign every year. No, I don't need a pop-up if you want to reroute me around an accident. If it's faster - just reroute me, if it's not - don't.
  - Fogest 5y ago
    I like all the things in Google Maps that you disagree with. Maybe you're just not the target audience and should switch to an app that works better for your needs? Google Maps does automatically choose the better route if it finds one, but it gives you time to cancel that action if you'd like before it switches.
    - gralx 5y ago
      As a fellow user of Google Maps, I'd gladly give up those features to make the roads a little safer. You have different priorities.
      - Fogest 5y ago
        Yes but what I mentioned does not require any interaction, it still does change the route to a faster one without having to do anything. I don't see how that makes a difference in safety? I am not worried about people using a GPS on the road, I am worried about the people I've seen who are scrolling through their social media feeds and watching videos that play in the feeds and everything. Or the people sending big text messages, the people who are having conversations with passengers and for some reason always have to look at the person to speak rather than keeping their eyes on the road, etc....
        JohnFen 5y ago
        > Yes but what I mentioned does not require any interaction, it still does change the route to a faster one without having to do anything. I don't see how that makes a difference in safety? It makes a difference for people (like myself) who very much don't want the route to change automatically. It means that some attention has to be paid to the app so you can tap the screen in time to make it stop, and it means that you have a time-limited action that you must perform. Two things that add to the cognitive load and distraction.
        Fogest 5y ago
        Yes, but the OP of this comment thread you tagged along on said they preferred it the other way: > No, I don't need a pop-up if you want to reroute me around an accident. If it's faster - just reroute me, if it's not - don't. That is what I am addressing. That it already does automatic rerouting without user interaction being required.
    - kroltan 5y ago
      Settings are supposed to exist, despite what corner-cutting suits would like to believe. Different people do have different needs, and it's clear that Google Maps attempts to reach a wide audience since it's both a map, business directory, and navigation service. If it must ask, offer "always pick faster route" and "always follow planned route" buttons on first use and in a menu somewhere.
  - bitcharmer 5y ago
    It's amazing how Google employs all these super smart people and they end up doing stupid shit like that.
    - InCityDreams 5y ago
      Not so super smart, then, are they? Throughout all these comments i just hear George Carlin....'people that should be.....'
  - warning26 5y ago
    As much as I prefer Google Maps's routing functionality, this is one thing that admittedly Apple Maps gets right in its UI; when you open it, there's a map, a search box, and my search history. Google Maps used to be that, until PMs took over pushing random new features. No, Google, I did not open your maps app so I could see "what's new", and have no desire to do that. Even the search history is broken -- it now uses some inscrutable logic to decide whether or not a previous search is worthy of inclusion into the past searches list.
  - wolpoli 5y ago
    Yes, I check traffic much often than looking for Food/Hotels/Groceries, but somehow the toggle for traffic is hidden behind a small layer icon, while Food/Hotels/Groceries occupy the top of the screen.
    - matkoniecz 5y ago
      Well, Food/Hotels/Groceries is an ideal place to show ads - which is the primary actual purpose of Google Maps as far as Google is concerned.
- matkoniecz 5y ago
  Problem here is that purpose of Google Maps is completely divergent between users and Google. For example Food/Hotels/Groceries is an ideal place to show ads - which is the primary actual purpose of Google Maps as far as Google is concerned.
- Nextgrid 5y ago
  The main problem is that if the company's model is "growth and engagement", the objective of the company is for you to "engage" with them (and look at the ads or whatever dark pattern they're pushing). It is not to help you accomplish whatever task you were trying to do with their product. The "product", if it's there, is merely a necessary evil to convince the users to "engage" with it. The PM couldn't care less about whether it interrupts your flow - he just knows that interrupting the flow of millions of people will net them that next promotion and a nice "increased engagement by double-digit percentages" bullet point on the resume. The company executives don't care either, because they know that boasting about the increased engagement figures will make their stock price go up. By the time the degraded experience causes actual repercussions for the company (if it ever does - it won't if they've got a monopoly), both the aforementioned PM and executives will be long gone and will already have cashed out.
  - tomjen3 5y ago
    Sure, but I have seen the same thing with paid software, and it lowers engagement because by the time I am ready to read it, I can’t.
sha256sum 5y ago
In other words: the last generation did not train the new one, and usability is expected to suffer. Also, there are few to no replacements. Because at some point, the last generation decided Windows was the only real OS. Oops!
- atlgator 5y ago
  To be fair, the new generation has no respect for the old one. Oh, you're a software engineer in your late 30s? Gross.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- chomp 5y ago
  > In other words: the last generation did not train the new one, and usability is expected to suffer. Probably is the case, however, a learned lesson sticks better than a taught lesson. Or at least that's my hypothesis as to why our industry ends up operating in a cycle of relearning past lessons.
- bruce511 5y ago
  Well clearly windows is not the only OS, so your thesis seems inaccurate. It's not even the only PC OS, arguably there are 2 serious Desktop OS's, Windows and MacOS. With Linux desktop a very distant 3rd. On servers there is Linux and Windows Server, with a few minor 3rds (BSD maybe?). On phones there are 2, 3rd place quit. In the cloud there are 2 providers in AWS and Azure. With Google a distant 3rd. Are you spotting a trend? Seems like each platform will support 2 to 3 players, usually with one dominant, one subordinate, and possibly one or two also-rans. When the platform is new there's lots of variety, but as the sector matures so the 2 winners emerge. Turns out that OSs are only as good as their developer community, and developers will support 1 or 2 platforms, not more. So 3rd place exists on scraps with few users and fewer developers. This has nothing to do with what a generation decides - each platform has a winner and a follower, and little else. To change the OS you have to change the platform, or invent a new one. Or maybe 2nd can overtake first (chrome over firefox/ie) but examples of that are rare. So don't be blaming a generation, the players are just the players - the game is the game.
winternett 5y ago
I have Windows 10 on my laptop and the other day it forced me to decide on if I wanted to update to Windows 11 or not in a "Now or Never" kind of way before even startup occurred... Even after a reboot, the computer was totally prevented from being useable until I answered the question, so I could not even search to see if it was an exploit, or even if the upgrade was successful for other users with the same model laptop as me. It's very troubling to me how a device (that I paid a lot of money for mind you) would do this without any sort of courtesy, and in such a disrespectful manner. This is the issue with modern software development, even the things we buy can be suddenly changed at the drop of a dime into a subscription service cash cow for big industry and we'll have no choice of escaping it all. Consumer Protection has failed us totally because they too invested deeply into these extortionist big corporations. The ads will only get worse year after year because it's all shareholder driven, and they will likely lobby other software and hardware manufacturers to not support alternate options like Linux. Good luck everyone.
- gyulai 5y ago
  I feel your pain, and am feeling very disconcerted on my own behalf too, having Win 10 and no plans of upgrading until network externalities positively force me to stop using it (at which point I'll probably give Linux on the Desktop another shot instead of upgrading to Win 11). But I'm finding it hard to believe that there isn't some escape hatch there. I absolutely cannot imagine that MSFT's corporate customers would play ball with something like that, and they still represent a powerful interest group where MSFT's decision-making is concerned. So there's got to be some escape hatch. Is it a Home vs Pro thing?
  - winternett 5y ago
    I dunno if it's a Home or Pro issue, but if things get really bad, people will just begin to venture back to computer stores (Off Torrent Street) in the urban part of town and get a bootleg copy of winblows 2024 as they did in the past, then company sales will drop and they'll need to re-evaluate everything all over again. It's a vicious cycle.
    - 5y ago
happytoexplain 5y ago
This is maybe the dominant pattern of bad software design: Writeups describe a good idea, umbrella terms emerge to refer back to it ("discoverability"), and inexperienced designers/engineers try to implement the idea based only on the one-word description and the common knowledge surrounding it, rather than actually learning about the topic it describes. (Maybe they took a corporate learning course on the topic, created by people with similarly inadequate competence on the topic). It's like a game of telephone taken to the logical extreme. They are attempting to use lessons from others' successes, but the end result is even worse than if the designers/engineers used nothing but their own common sense to architect in an information vacuum. This particular cause of abysmal, insulting UX is common in new teams with no experience among the staff, but there's just no word for how embarrassing it is that Microsoft suffers from it so often too.
pmarreck 5y ago
this pretty much describes why I couldn’t stand that Windows era and strongly preferred my Mac instead. It was like it was designed to be anti-focus
Havoc 5y ago
And before that there was clippy...
avereveard 5y ago
today a new stupid applet appeared on the taskbar, and it defaulted to italian, picking up language from the location (without even asking permission to geolocate me first!) instead of my os language. it's not just the nagware, the whole system experience is shit because it's so inconsistent. I run a english language / italian keyboard, and every update it decides to reset my keyboard to english layout. search results are still this bad, with unrelated results shadowing good matches: https://i.imgur.com/uJY7uCJ.png https://i.imgur.com/uJY7uCJ.png windows security often gives me a notification. the notification say: "no action needed" it's like they just put interns in cages and set them to program away, building stuff for the sake of accounting new lines of codes.
Nextgrid 5y ago
In the Vista days they at least tried to do the right thing; it was still an era where computers were tools to serve the user, not to exploit/abuse them, most business models were still "sell a thing people need/want at a profit", and the current state of telemetry & ad-related tracking would've still been considered "spyware" and would've led to massive outrage and maybe even legal consequences. Nowadays, they don't even try to do "the right thing", or at the very least, the meaning of "the right thing" has been corrupted in many parts of the tech industry. "Growth and engagement" is seen as a completely normal and valid business model and pervasive stalking (that would make spyware from a decade ago super jealous) became socially-accepted.
- qwertox 5y ago
  It used to be a tool which they gave you in exchange for money, now it's a platform which both of you share, and where they start messing around with your stuff whichever way they see fit. You used to buy a desktop which you would take home and sit in front and do your work. Now you buy a desktop which you take home and you get the seller sit on the other side of it, looking at your work, asking your questions, taking your papers, rearranging everything according to their newest ideas. It's absolutely horrible.
xenadu02 5y ago
Why do you think they don't know this will be annoying but intend to do it anyway to shift revenue sources? My personal opinion is: Microsoft told us they see Windows 11 as the "last" version. From now on Windows is a service that pushes continuous updates. The OEM deals are still generating revenue but the strategy shift means no more selling retail upgrades. It makes total sense that Microsoft would now prioritize adding new revenue sources. I would expect more "parterships", ads, telemetry/tracking, and so forth. The money is just too juicy and Windows is slowly transitioning to be a cost center instead of revenue center which makes the pressure to find revenue even higher. Plus with PC upgrade cycles getting longer and the overall PC market somewhat leveling off (days of 50% yoy growth are long gone) revenue was going to stagnate no matter what. Microsoft employs a lot of smart people. They know users don't want any of this. The desire to find new revenue is a higher priority. Anyone not on-board with the "Windows client versions are now a 'marketing channel' and 'partnership opportunity'" will leave or find themselves reorg'd to "align business priorities". Is writing some new feature going to move the needle after the OEMs fill the system up with spyware/adware? It isn't going to increase PC sales by 20% this year so it isn't going to generate more OEM license sales and zzzzzzz (look the VPs already fell asleep during your presentation). Is fixing bugs going to get kudos, or just create more support tickets as your bug fix accidentally breaks some old garbage "business critical" software relying on the broken behavior? It sure isn't going to sell more copies of Windows since that isn't something MS does anymore. But putting ads in Explorer and generating $50m in new revenue? Now that will get you a promotion and bonus!
- bondarchuk 5y ago
  Didn't they say 10 was the last version, too?
  - andi999 5y ago
    They did.
    - gruez 5y ago
      AFAIK it was a random windows dev that said that, not some official company communication/promise.
jjoonathan 5y ago
It's very charitable to assume that they just don't understand. Personally I think they understand perfectly well that ads reduce the value of their offering but don't care because money.
- MathMonkeyMan 5y ago
  Indeed, value for whom?
dm319 5y ago
Have a look at the adobe acrobat interface, I can't believe how complicated it is, and often comes up with prompts, side menus, adverts for other versions, and a tiny space to actually view your file.
fatih-erikli 5y ago
I don't know why the people hate Vista, but it was my favorite Windows version ever. I like the glowing transparent bars so much in it. It was first, as far as remember. Some KDE window managers also had it but windows's was so much better. I think it is also important, I find it very attractive when the title bars are glowing and transparent.
- wlesieutre 5y ago
  UAC prompts, driver compatibility issues, and "Windows Vista Capable" branding on a bunch of computers that couldn't actually run Vista properly https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2008/03/the-vista-capable-debacle-intel-pushes-microsoft-bends/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2008/03/the-vista-capable-de...
  - fatih-erikli 5y ago
    Yes I remember driver compatibility issues, especially for graphics drivers. It was running it with some sort of undergraded flag and disabling enhanced visual mode, and actually with that flag, the windows vista looked and worked like Windows XP. I think Windows is the best when it comes to backward compatibility in comparison with others. Correct me if I'm wrong.
- Nextgrid 5y ago
  I love Windows Aero. The "flat" bullshit that came after it is complete garbage.
  - MathMonkeyMan 5y ago
    Metro? I liked the "lots of floating rectangles" aesthetic, and the bright colors. The mistake was in the strategy: "Let's combine touch interfaces with desktop interfaces. Tablets are the next computing revolution." Oops.
  - fatih-erikli 5y ago
    Yes! Even though I prefer "flat" instead skeuomorphism, which imposes real materials (wooden, notebook, etc) in a 2d surface (a display), I think. Glowing-glass looks much more realistic and complete.
amelius 5y ago
> Looks like a new generation of engineers and designers is ready to learn this lesson the hard way again! Nah, it's just some manager who needs a pay raise.
Vox_Leone 5y ago
I regret that the computing experience in 2022 has to be so atrocious. But it is necessary to understand that general computing has its limit when the user does not want to make the effort to have independence [to educate themselves on the operation of a von Neumann machine]. There is a whole GNU/Linux ecosystem [as well as a few others], mature and reliable. I even feel sorry for the user who, for one reason or another, prefers to be spoon fed by the Windows system. As you can see, there is a price to pay for the convenience of ignorance [hey, everybody uses Windows!]. Or it may be that general computing, the noble goal of bringing computing for the masses, is just an illusion, and cannot be done without gatekeepers like MS.
- zeruch 5y ago
  "I regret that the computing experience in 2022 has to be so atrocious." The industry builds what the industry wants.
  - t-writescode 5y ago
    The populous tolerates what the (edit: duopolies) force-feed them.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
    Precisely. Developers hate users because users are the ones who want them to do things like fix bugs and make software reliable, which isn't as fun as cramming in new features and rewriting things in new languages and frameworks. Even open source software suffers from this, just look at GNOME.
- jawilson2 5y ago
  So, I'm building a gaming PC for my kids. One of them started playing fortnite with his friends during covid, to keep in touch. He would like it on the gaming PC. Fortnite does not run on Linux. What do you suggest? If it helps, I have been personally running linux since 2002 or so, starting with Slackware, then Gentoo, then back and forth from Arch to Ubuntu. I am a developer and use linux daily. I would love to hear what I should use instead of windows.
immibis 5y ago
I had a laptop that came with Windows Vista and I don't remember it being full of distractions. Granted, perhaps the OEM turned them all off.
- qwertox 5y ago
  Neither Vista nor 7 had any distractions. Except for the games like Minesweeper.
frozenport 5y ago
Your reading of the situation is wrong. Vista broke 30% market share meaning that MS can push terrible UX and get away with it. Further, in the Vista era there was a more palpable reduction in performance that doesn't seem to be happening. MS has made their calculation, and it may lead to more revenue.
kardianos 5y ago
This is tangental to the topic, but we must create a notion of Obligation in society to both actively teach and learn from those who have gone before us.
1vuio0pswjnm7 5y ago
Sounds like Windows users are unpaid beta testers.
thiht 5y ago
> Looks like a new generation of engineers and designers is ready to learn this lesson the hard way again! You mean product managers? I’m not sure what engineers and designers have to do with this. My guess is that they know it’s stupid, tried to shut it down and failed.
throwaway5486nv 5y ago
How is this related to ads?
vineyardmike 5y ago
> tried to make features (and products) "discoverable" by pushing them on you with alerts and banners, but the result, when multiplied by dozens of product teams and PMs, was an overall user experience that was noisy and unpleasant. Did you say alexa?

tomjen3 5y ago

I wished a lot more companies would learn that lesson. It is such a pain when you have to use some software and then you get the popups about new features. The features may be brilliant, but right now I don't care. I am doing something. Yet somehow PMs never realize that if they let the features be visible in the corner, I would click on them in 10 seconds when I am done with what I am doing and would actually want to read them.

antisthenes 5y ago
Looking at you, Google Maps. No, I don't need an "easier way to do X, Y" or whatever else your obtuse program manager decided would get them a promotion. I'm operating a 2-ton vehicle in traffic, so THE EASIER WAY would be to not obscure 50% of my phone screen, making me take eyes away from the road for an extra 2-3 seconds. Hint for anyone reading this at google - it's in the name. Maps. That's all I want from your app, UNLESS I am specifically searching for Food/Hotels/Groceries. Also, please stop doing a UI redesign every year. No, I don't need a pop-up if you want to reroute me around an accident. If it's faster - just reroute me, if it's not - don't.
- Fogest 5y ago
  I like all the things in Google Maps that you disagree with. Maybe you're just not the target audience and should switch to an app that works better for your needs? Google Maps does automatically choose the better route if it finds one, but it gives you time to cancel that action if you'd like before it switches.
  - gralx 5y ago
    As a fellow user of Google Maps, I'd gladly give up those features to make the roads a little safer. You have different priorities.
    - Fogest 5y ago
      Yes but what I mentioned does not require any interaction, it still does change the route to a faster one without having to do anything. I don't see how that makes a difference in safety? I am not worried about people using a GPS on the road, I am worried about the people I've seen who are scrolling through their social media feeds and watching videos that play in the feeds and everything. Or the people sending big text messages, the people who are having conversations with passengers and for some reason always have to look at the person to speak rather than keeping their eyes on the road, etc....
      - JohnFen 5y ago
        > Yes but what I mentioned does not require any interaction, it still does change the route to a faster one without having to do anything. I don't see how that makes a difference in safety? It makes a difference for people (like myself) who very much don't want the route to change automatically. It means that some attention has to be paid to the app so you can tap the screen in time to make it stop, and it means that you have a time-limited action that you must perform. Two things that add to the cognitive load and distraction.
        Fogest 5y ago
        Yes, but the OP of this comment thread you tagged along on said they preferred it the other way: > No, I don't need a pop-up if you want to reroute me around an accident. If it's faster - just reroute me, if it's not - don't. That is what I am addressing. That it already does automatic rerouting without user interaction being required.
  - kroltan 5y ago
    Settings are supposed to exist, despite what corner-cutting suits would like to believe. Different people do have different needs, and it's clear that Google Maps attempts to reach a wide audience since it's both a map, business directory, and navigation service. If it must ask, offer "always pick faster route" and "always follow planned route" buttons on first use and in a menu somewhere.
- bitcharmer 5y ago
  It's amazing how Google employs all these super smart people and they end up doing stupid shit like that.
  - InCityDreams 5y ago
    Not so super smart, then, are they? Throughout all these comments i just hear George Carlin....'people that should be.....'
- warning26 5y ago
  As much as I prefer Google Maps's routing functionality, this is one thing that admittedly Apple Maps gets right in its UI; when you open it, there's a map, a search box, and my search history. Google Maps used to be that, until PMs took over pushing random new features. No, Google, I did not open your maps app so I could see "what's new", and have no desire to do that. Even the search history is broken -- it now uses some inscrutable logic to decide whether or not a previous search is worthy of inclusion into the past searches list.
- wolpoli 5y ago
  Yes, I check traffic much often than looking for Food/Hotels/Groceries, but somehow the toggle for traffic is hidden behind a small layer icon, while Food/Hotels/Groceries occupy the top of the screen.
  - matkoniecz 5y ago
    Well, Food/Hotels/Groceries is an ideal place to show ads - which is the primary actual purpose of Google Maps as far as Google is concerned.
matkoniecz 5y ago
Problem here is that purpose of Google Maps is completely divergent between users and Google. For example Food/Hotels/Groceries is an ideal place to show ads - which is the primary actual purpose of Google Maps as far as Google is concerned.
Nextgrid 5y ago
The main problem is that if the company's model is "growth and engagement", the objective of the company is for you to "engage" with them (and look at the ads or whatever dark pattern they're pushing). It is not to help you accomplish whatever task you were trying to do with their product. The "product", if it's there, is merely a necessary evil to convince the users to "engage" with it. The PM couldn't care less about whether it interrupts your flow - he just knows that interrupting the flow of millions of people will net them that next promotion and a nice "increased engagement by double-digit percentages" bullet point on the resume. The company executives don't care either, because they know that boasting about the increased engagement figures will make their stock price go up. By the time the degraded experience causes actual repercussions for the company (if it ever does - it won't if they've got a monopoly), both the aforementioned PM and executives will be long gone and will already have cashed out.
- tomjen3 5y ago
  Sure, but I have seen the same thing with paid software, and it lowers engagement because by the time I am ready to read it, I can’t.

sha256sum 5y ago

In other words: the last generation did not train the new one, and usability is expected to suffer. Also, there are few to no replacements. Because at some point, the last generation decided Windows was the only real OS. Oops!

atlgator 5y ago
To be fair, the new generation has no respect for the old one. Oh, you're a software engineer in your late 30s? Gross.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
chomp 5y ago
> In other words: the last generation did not train the new one, and usability is expected to suffer. Probably is the case, however, a learned lesson sticks better than a taught lesson. Or at least that's my hypothesis as to why our industry ends up operating in a cycle of relearning past lessons.
bruce511 5y ago
Well clearly windows is not the only OS, so your thesis seems inaccurate. It's not even the only PC OS, arguably there are 2 serious Desktop OS's, Windows and MacOS. With Linux desktop a very distant 3rd. On servers there is Linux and Windows Server, with a few minor 3rds (BSD maybe?). On phones there are 2, 3rd place quit. In the cloud there are 2 providers in AWS and Azure. With Google a distant 3rd. Are you spotting a trend? Seems like each platform will support 2 to 3 players, usually with one dominant, one subordinate, and possibly one or two also-rans. When the platform is new there's lots of variety, but as the sector matures so the 2 winners emerge. Turns out that OSs are only as good as their developer community, and developers will support 1 or 2 platforms, not more. So 3rd place exists on scraps with few users and fewer developers. This has nothing to do with what a generation decides - each platform has a winner and a follower, and little else. To change the OS you have to change the platform, or invent a new one. Or maybe 2nd can overtake first (chrome over firefox/ie) but examples of that are rare. So don't be blaming a generation, the players are just the players - the game is the game.

winternett 5y ago

I have Windows 10 on my laptop and the other day it forced me to decide on if I wanted to update to Windows 11 or not in a "Now or Never" kind of way before even startup occurred... Even after a reboot, the computer was totally prevented from being useable until I answered the question, so I could not even search to see if it was an exploit, or even if the upgrade was successful for other users with the same model laptop as me. It's very troubling to me how a device (that I paid a lot of money for mind you) would do this without any sort of courtesy, and in such a disrespectful manner. This is the issue with modern software development, even the things we buy can be suddenly changed at the drop of a dime into a subscription service cash cow for big industry and we'll have no choice of escaping it all. Consumer Protection has failed us totally because they too invested deeply into these extortionist big corporations. The ads will only get worse year after year because it's all shareholder driven, and they will likely lobby other software and hardware manufacturers to not support alternate options like Linux. Good luck everyone.

gyulai 5y ago
I feel your pain, and am feeling very disconcerted on my own behalf too, having Win 10 and no plans of upgrading until network externalities positively force me to stop using it (at which point I'll probably give Linux on the Desktop another shot instead of upgrading to Win 11). But I'm finding it hard to believe that there isn't some escape hatch there. I absolutely cannot imagine that MSFT's corporate customers would play ball with something like that, and they still represent a powerful interest group where MSFT's decision-making is concerned. So there's got to be some escape hatch. Is it a Home vs Pro thing?
- winternett 5y ago
  I dunno if it's a Home or Pro issue, but if things get really bad, people will just begin to venture back to computer stores (Off Torrent Street) in the urban part of town and get a bootleg copy of winblows 2024 as they did in the past, then company sales will drop and they'll need to re-evaluate everything all over again. It's a vicious cycle.
  - 5y ago

happytoexplain 5y ago

This is maybe the dominant pattern of bad software design: Writeups describe a good idea, umbrella terms emerge to refer back to it ("discoverability"), and inexperienced designers/engineers try to implement the idea based only on the one-word description and the common knowledge surrounding it, rather than actually learning about the topic it describes. (Maybe they took a corporate learning course on the topic, created by people with similarly inadequate competence on the topic). It's like a game of telephone taken to the logical extreme. They are attempting to use lessons from others' successes, but the end result is even worse than if the designers/engineers used nothing but their own common sense to architect in an information vacuum. This particular cause of abysmal, insulting UX is common in new teams with no experience among the staff, but there's just no word for how embarrassing it is that Microsoft suffers from it so often too.

pmarreck 5y ago

this pretty much describes why I couldn’t stand that Windows era and strongly preferred my Mac instead. It was like it was designed to be anti-focus

Havoc 5y ago

And before that there was clippy...

avereveard 5y ago

today a new stupid applet appeared on the taskbar, and it defaulted to italian, picking up language from the location (without even asking permission to geolocate me first!) instead of my os language. it's not just the nagware, the whole system experience is shit because it's so inconsistent. I run a english language / italian keyboard, and every update it decides to reset my keyboard to english layout. search results are still this bad, with unrelated results shadowing good matches: https://i.imgur.com/uJY7uCJ.png https://i.imgur.com/uJY7uCJ.png windows security often gives me a notification. the notification say: "no action needed" it's like they just put interns in cages and set them to program away, building stuff for the sake of accounting new lines of codes.

Nextgrid 5y ago

In the Vista days they at least tried to do the right thing; it was still an era where computers were tools to serve the user, not to exploit/abuse them, most business models were still "sell a thing people need/want at a profit", and the current state of telemetry & ad-related tracking would've still been considered "spyware" and would've led to massive outrage and maybe even legal consequences. Nowadays, they don't even try to do "the right thing", or at the very least, the meaning of "the right thing" has been corrupted in many parts of the tech industry. "Growth and engagement" is seen as a completely normal and valid business model and pervasive stalking (that would make spyware from a decade ago super jealous) became socially-accepted.

qwertox 5y ago
It used to be a tool which they gave you in exchange for money, now it's a platform which both of you share, and where they start messing around with your stuff whichever way they see fit. You used to buy a desktop which you would take home and sit in front and do your work. Now you buy a desktop which you take home and you get the seller sit on the other side of it, looking at your work, asking your questions, taking your papers, rearranging everything according to their newest ideas. It's absolutely horrible.

xenadu02 5y ago

Why do you think they don't know this will be annoying but intend to do it anyway to shift revenue sources? My personal opinion is: Microsoft told us they see Windows 11 as the "last" version. From now on Windows is a service that pushes continuous updates. The OEM deals are still generating revenue but the strategy shift means no more selling retail upgrades. It makes total sense that Microsoft would now prioritize adding new revenue sources. I would expect more "parterships", ads, telemetry/tracking, and so forth. The money is just too juicy and Windows is slowly transitioning to be a cost center instead of revenue center which makes the pressure to find revenue even higher. Plus with PC upgrade cycles getting longer and the overall PC market somewhat leveling off (days of 50% yoy growth are long gone) revenue was going to stagnate no matter what. Microsoft employs a lot of smart people. They know users don't want any of this. The desire to find new revenue is a higher priority. Anyone not on-board with the "Windows client versions are now a 'marketing channel' and 'partnership opportunity'" will leave or find themselves reorg'd to "align business priorities". Is writing some new feature going to move the needle after the OEMs fill the system up with spyware/adware? It isn't going to increase PC sales by 20% this year so it isn't going to generate more OEM license sales and zzzzzzz (look the VPs already fell asleep during your presentation). Is fixing bugs going to get kudos, or just create more support tickets as your bug fix accidentally breaks some old garbage "business critical" software relying on the broken behavior? It sure isn't going to sell more copies of Windows since that isn't something MS does anymore. But putting ads in Explorer and generating $50m in new revenue? Now that will get you a promotion and bonus!

bondarchuk 5y ago
Didn't they say 10 was the last version, too?
- andi999 5y ago
  They did.
  - gruez 5y ago
    AFAIK it was a random windows dev that said that, not some official company communication/promise.

jjoonathan 5y ago

It's very charitable to assume that they just don't understand. Personally I think they understand perfectly well that ads reduce the value of their offering but don't care because money.

MathMonkeyMan 5y ago
Indeed, value for whom?

dm319 5y ago

Have a look at the adobe acrobat interface, I can't believe how complicated it is, and often comes up with prompts, side menus, adverts for other versions, and a tiny space to actually view your file.

fatih-erikli 5y ago

I don't know why the people hate Vista, but it was my favorite Windows version ever. I like the glowing transparent bars so much in it. It was first, as far as remember. Some KDE window managers also had it but windows's was so much better. I think it is also important, I find it very attractive when the title bars are glowing and transparent.

wlesieutre 5y ago
UAC prompts, driver compatibility issues, and "Windows Vista Capable" branding on a bunch of computers that couldn't actually run Vista properly https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2008/03/the-vista-capable-debacle-intel-pushes-microsoft-bends/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2008/03/the-vista-capable-de...
- fatih-erikli 5y ago
  Yes I remember driver compatibility issues, especially for graphics drivers. It was running it with some sort of undergraded flag and disabling enhanced visual mode, and actually with that flag, the windows vista looked and worked like Windows XP. I think Windows is the best when it comes to backward compatibility in comparison with others. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Nextgrid 5y ago
I love Windows Aero. The "flat" bullshit that came after it is complete garbage.
- MathMonkeyMan 5y ago
  Metro? I liked the "lots of floating rectangles" aesthetic, and the bright colors. The mistake was in the strategy: "Let's combine touch interfaces with desktop interfaces. Tablets are the next computing revolution." Oops.
- fatih-erikli 5y ago
  Yes! Even though I prefer "flat" instead skeuomorphism, which imposes real materials (wooden, notebook, etc) in a 2d surface (a display), I think. Glowing-glass looks much more realistic and complete.

amelius 5y ago

> Looks like a new generation of engineers and designers is ready to learn this lesson the hard way again! Nah, it's just some manager who needs a pay raise.

Vox_Leone 5y ago

I regret that the computing experience in 2022 has to be so atrocious. But it is necessary to understand that general computing has its limit when the user does not want to make the effort to have independence [to educate themselves on the operation of a von Neumann machine]. There is a whole GNU/Linux ecosystem [as well as a few others], mature and reliable. I even feel sorry for the user who, for one reason or another, prefers to be spoon fed by the Windows system. As you can see, there is a price to pay for the convenience of ignorance [hey, everybody uses Windows!]. Or it may be that general computing, the noble goal of bringing computing for the masses, is just an illusion, and cannot be done without gatekeepers like MS.

zeruch 5y ago
"I regret that the computing experience in 2022 has to be so atrocious." The industry builds what the industry wants.
- t-writescode 5y ago
  The populous tolerates what the (edit: duopolies) force-feed them.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
  Precisely. Developers hate users because users are the ones who want them to do things like fix bugs and make software reliable, which isn't as fun as cramming in new features and rewriting things in new languages and frameworks. Even open source software suffers from this, just look at GNOME.
jawilson2 5y ago
So, I'm building a gaming PC for my kids. One of them started playing fortnite with his friends during covid, to keep in touch. He would like it on the gaming PC. Fortnite does not run on Linux. What do you suggest? If it helps, I have been personally running linux since 2002 or so, starting with Slackware, then Gentoo, then back and forth from Arch to Ubuntu. I am a developer and use linux daily. I would love to hear what I should use instead of windows.

immibis 5y ago

I had a laptop that came with Windows Vista and I don't remember it being full of distractions. Granted, perhaps the OEM turned them all off.

qwertox 5y ago
Neither Vista nor 7 had any distractions. Except for the games like Minesweeper.

frozenport 5y ago

Your reading of the situation is wrong. Vista broke 30% market share meaning that MS can push terrible UX and get away with it. Further, in the Vista era there was a more palpable reduction in performance that doesn't seem to be happening. MS has made their calculation, and it may lead to more revenue.

kardianos 5y ago

This is tangental to the topic, but we must create a notion of Obligation in society to both actively teach and learn from those who have gone before us.

1vuio0pswjnm7 5y ago

Sounds like Windows users are unpaid beta testers.

thiht 5y ago

> Looks like a new generation of engineers and designers is ready to learn this lesson the hard way again! You mean product managers? I’m not sure what engineers and designers have to do with this. My guess is that they know it’s stupid, tried to shut it down and failed.

throwaway5486nv 5y ago

How is this related to ads?

vineyardmike 5y ago

> tried to make features (and products) "discoverable" by pushing them on you with alerts and banners, but the result, when multiplied by dozens of product teams and PMs, was an overall user experience that was noisy and unpleasant. Did you say alexa?